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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talksib Follow this

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Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. It's

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Speaker 1: time from all the Attitude, all the opinion, all the information,

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Speaker 1: all the debates of.

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Speaker 2: The sis, now.

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Speaker 1: The Leyton Smith Podcast powered by news Talks it.

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Speaker 3: B Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and ninety nine for

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Speaker 3: August twenty seven, twenty twenty five. Christian Smith practiced law

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Speaker 3: for a few years after graduating from the University of Otago.

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Speaker 3: He then moved to London did a master's in international

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Speaker 3: relations at King's College.

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Speaker 2: He also studied.

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Speaker 3: Journalism and is a podcaster and editor at the Lawyer

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Speaker 3: dot com. And it's no secret that I'm his father.

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Speaker 3: I might also add that while he was studying at

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Speaker 3: King's College, he was working part time in a very small,

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Speaker 3: only two partners, very small law firm specialized in sports law,

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Speaker 3: and boy did he love that.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Over the years, Christian has put in a number of

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Speaker 3: appearances on the podcast, and many of you have grown

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Speaker 3: quite fond of him. And as we did two years

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Speaker 3: ago here in London, we, as they say, sat down

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Speaker 3: on opposite sides of a relatively small actually a very

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Speaker 3: small table and swapped opinions not always agreeing, but I think,

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Speaker 3: like me, you would agree that that is a healthy thing.

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Speaker 3: So in a moment, Christian Smith, there are essential fat

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Speaker 3: nutrients that we need in our diets as the body

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Speaker 3: can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and Amiga six

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Speaker 3: fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish oil and

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Speaker 3: virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent

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Speaker 3: source of Amiga three and Amiga six fatty acids in

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Speaker 3: their naturally existing ratios. The Amiga six from evening primrose

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Speaker 3: oil assists the Omega three fish oil to be more effective.

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Speaker 3: Equisine is a high quality fish oil supplement enriched with

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Speaker 3: evening primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive health support.

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Speaker 3: Source from the deep sea sardines Anchovisa Magril provide essential

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Speaker 3: Amiga three fatty acids in their purest form without any

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Speaker 3: internal organs or toxins. Every batch is tested for its

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Speaker 3: purity before it's allowed to be sold. Equisine supports cells

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Speaker 3: to be flexible, so important to support healthy blood flow

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Speaker 3: and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood, balance and

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Speaker 3: mental clarity and focus in children. All the way to

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Speaker 3: supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and healthy eyes

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Speaker 3: as we get older. Equisin is a premium, high grade

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Speaker 3: fish and evening primrose oil to be taken in addition

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Speaker 3: to a healthy diet and is only available from pharmacies

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Speaker 3: and health stores. Always read the label and users directed,

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Speaker 3: and if symptoms persist, seeing your health care professional. Farmer

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Speaker 3: Broker Auckland. The first page of the August sixteenth edition

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Speaker 3: of The Spectator. That's the English Spectator. The original is

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Speaker 3: entitled Doom and Discontent. James Callahan back in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 3: four made a comment, sometimes when I get to bed,

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Speaker 3: I think that if I were a young man, I

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Speaker 3: would immigrate. Of course he's not alone. Men have been

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Speaker 3: doing that all their lives. Plenty of women also. But

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Speaker 3: he was referring to that decade's chronic economic dysfunction, whether

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Speaker 3: it's double digit inflation, growing unemployment and stuttering growth. And

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Speaker 3: then two years later, as Prime Minister he would have

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Speaker 3: to go cap in hand to request a bailout from

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Speaker 3: the International Monetary Fund, and two years after that came

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Speaker 3: the Winter of Discontent. As it's known now, today's economic

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Speaker 3: picture may not.

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Speaker 2: Be quite so bleak.

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Speaker 3: Even so, the Young Sea only intractable stagnation, cost of

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Speaker 3: living pressures and visible declimb. A recent poll suggested that

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Speaker 3: more than a quarter of eighteen to thirty year olds

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Speaker 3: had considered emigrating. The number of P eighty five forms

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Speaker 3: requested by taxpayers wishing to go abroad more than doubled

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Speaker 3: between twenty two and twenty five. It's a pretty big increase,

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Speaker 3: and Cullahan's present day successes show no sign of reversing

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Speaker 3: this gloomy trend. Instead, more punishment is expected. Well, Britain

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Speaker 3: isn't the only place on the planet that is expecting

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Speaker 3: or experiencing that sort of thing. Christian Smith is a

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Speaker 3: qualified lawyer, he's a journalist, he's a podcaster, a champion

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Speaker 3: one of that. He has a master's in international relations,

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Speaker 3: and he belongs to the Smith family. He's my son.

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Speaker 3: We last died this sitting opposite each other at a

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Speaker 3: table two years ago, and we talked about a lot

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Speaker 3: about the state of London in particular, but things in

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Speaker 3: general as well. We expected it to be a guidance

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Speaker 3: to people who were thinking of packing up their bags

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand or Australia or elsewhere. And coming here

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Speaker 3: what I just quoted, How did that ring with you?

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Speaker 2: Well, the comparison between the nineteen seventies and the current

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Speaker 2: moment in Britain has been made extensively in the past

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Speaker 2: few years. There's not that's not surprising, I suppose, And

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Speaker 2: there's always a kind of similarity in cycles and economic

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Speaker 2: cycles and that sort of thing. And Britain is facing

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Speaker 2: a growth, well stagflation in many ways you are small growth,

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Speaker 2: chunky inflation. It's a lot less than it was a

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Speaker 2: few years ago thanks to the pandemic in the war

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Speaker 2: in Ukraine, but it's still there. But I think it's

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Speaker 2: probably a fair analysis to suggest that there's there's some comparisons,

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Speaker 2: but it's not as good as it was then, not

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Speaker 2: as bad as it was then. Rather all right.

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Speaker 3: But since I've been here, you have said on more

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Speaker 3: than one occasion that a lot of your friends, and

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Speaker 3: you had a lot of good friends have have departed

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Speaker 3: left the country.

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Speaker 2: A lot of New Zealanders that have been over here

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Speaker 2: have gone back. I mean that's fairly typical. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people come here for you on two or three

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Speaker 2: years on the youth Mobility working holiday visa. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people stay a bit longer than that, but then

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Speaker 2: decide they want to go home that rather raise kids

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand in particular. I think that's generally it's

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Speaker 2: generally seen as a much better place to raise kids,

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Speaker 2: particularly compared to London, which is big and busy and

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Speaker 2: a bit dangerous and expensive. A lot of particular professions

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Speaker 2: move abroad here, so doctors is a real, really big one.

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Speaker 2: A lot of doctors from the UK and Ireland as

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Speaker 2: well have moved to Australia and New Zealand in particular

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Speaker 2: because the wages are better, the hours are better. I

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Speaker 2: know New Zealand's medical health system has plenty of issues

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Speaker 2: at the moment, but generally speaking, the consensus amongst doctors

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Speaker 2: that I know from both here and in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: is that it's a better place to work in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand than it is over here. But I would say

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Speaker 2: that in terms of people moving away from my friends

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Speaker 2: who are not from New Zealand over here, no, not

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Speaker 2: too many have moved abroad, I don't think. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think the irony is that before Brexit you actually

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Speaker 2: might have seen more people move away if Brexit hadn't happened.

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Speaker 2: Now because people could go to the EU without any difficulty.

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Speaker 2: If you had a British passport, you could go and

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Speaker 2: live in any EU member state as you pleased. Whereas

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Speaker 2: now that has been taken away from people. So it

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Speaker 2: is actually harder, ironically for a lot of a lot

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Speaker 2: of British people to move away.

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Speaker 3: My podcasts have a way of shaping themselves, and you

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Speaker 3: just assisted because In the same edition of The Spectator,

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Speaker 3: the cover story, written by Lisa Hazeldean is border Lands

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Speaker 3: Europe is giving up on free movement, not just free movement,

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Speaker 3: free speech too. But that's that's the title. And reading

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Speaker 3: it and it's a lengthy article. Reading it, I was

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Speaker 3: both entertained and explain that in a minute. I was

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Speaker 3: both entertained and disturbed by it. Now, having been to

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Speaker 3: Europe in the in the last few weeks, I've discovered

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Speaker 3: that what she says is is pretty correct. My example

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Speaker 3: is me I had to get just just for starters,

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Speaker 3: I had to get a visa to come to England

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Speaker 3: to Britain. What nonsense is that, Because that's what it is.

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Speaker 3: It's nonsense, it's garbage.

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Speaker 2: You didn't have to get a visa, you had to

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Speaker 2: get a visa waiver, which is exactly what people now

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Speaker 2: have to get when they come to New Zealand as well.

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Speaker 2: So if British people came to New Zealand doesn't need

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Speaker 2: to get the same sort of thing, it's the same

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Speaker 2: thing you need to go to the States. And is

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Speaker 2: it warranted? Well, I think that's a good question. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't know enough about it to be honest. I

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Speaker 2: would say part of it is probably a revenue generation

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Speaker 2: for these countries. If everybody who doesn't need a visa

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Speaker 2: to come to the UK has to get a visa

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Speaker 2: waiver and pay ten pounds for it, that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of money. But is it warranted? Well, that's that's you

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Speaker 2: tell me.

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Speaker 3: And then I had to get a visa to go

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Speaker 3: to Turkey, this time being to Turkey on another of occasions.

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Speaker 3: Don't need a visa now you do?

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Speaker 2: Why? I don't know. I'm not a representative of the

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Speaker 2: Turkish government. I would say, again, probably revenue generation as

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Speaker 2: part of it they probably want to keep track of.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But here's the trick. New Zealanders don't have to

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Speaker 3: get a visa to go to Turkey, but Australians do.

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Speaker 3: At this point of time. Maybe it'll change. Sometimes I

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Speaker 3: have no idea moment. That's the way that it is,

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Speaker 3: which seems nonsensical.

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Speaker 2: There are probably equivalents, I would say, with New Zealanders

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Speaker 2: needing a visa or a visa waiver to go to

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Speaker 2: other countries in the world. You know, you see all

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Speaker 2: these passport comparison charts. Who's got the best passport? Australia

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Speaker 2: and New Zealand are always very high up that list,

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Speaker 2: but there are you know, some countries, for example, where

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Speaker 2: you need one for a New Zealander and not for Australian.

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Speaker 2: Another equivalent is if you have an Australian passport, you actually,

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Speaker 2: generally speaking, get a few better options for working holiday

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Speaker 2: visas in Europe. So for example Italy and Greece. I

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Speaker 2: believe if you're Australian you can stay longer in the

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Speaker 2: country than if you are a New Zealander. Why is that?

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Speaker 2: Probably because of the mass immigration of Italians and Greeks

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Speaker 2: to Australia, you know, fifty one hundred years ago. But

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Speaker 2: that's just a guess. I don't know fifty or one hundred. No,

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Speaker 2: let's go fifty to seventy or thereabouts. Anyway, they made

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Speaker 2: a very good impression and gave Australia a culture that

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Speaker 2: otherwise wouldn't have had. And most people I know wish

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Speaker 2: that more of them would come to New Zealand. But

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Speaker 2: there you have it.

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Speaker 3: So back to Lisa Hazeldeine's article ten years ago. On

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Speaker 3: thirty one August twenty fifteen, Angela Merkel told the German

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Speaker 3: press that she was going to what she was going

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Speaker 3: to do about the swell of Syrian refugees heading to

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Speaker 3: Europe with three faithful words, my German was never any good.

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Speaker 3: There schaffendas, we can handle it. She ushered in a

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Speaker 3: new era of uncontrolled mass migration, not just for Germany

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Speaker 3: but for the rest of the European Union. The then Chancellor,

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Speaker 3: so often described by her supporters as in the press

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Speaker 3: as the Queen of Europe, was adamant that Germany was

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Speaker 3: a strong economy. Now there's a lot of writing about

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Speaker 3: this in the next few columns, but I can say simply,

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Speaker 3: she couldn't have been more wrong. It's now recognized how

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Speaker 3: she was. Some of us recognize how stupid she was,

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Speaker 3: because anybody with half her brain would have known that

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Speaker 3: once you opened the gates, you've opened the floodgates, and

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Speaker 3: so everybody has suffered for it, and as the author says,

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Speaker 3: it's going to haunt her for the rest of her life.

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Speaker 3: So the free freedom of movement it no longer exists.

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Speaker 3: Give you another example. France first shut down its borders

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Speaker 3: with Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Spain and Italy last November.

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Speaker 3: Among its reasons for doing so was the growing criminal

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Speaker 3: networks facilitating irregular migration and smuggling and irregular migration flows

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Speaker 3: toward the Franco the Franco British border that risk infiltration

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Speaker 3: by radicalized individuals. And by the way, on the cruise

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Speaker 3: we've been on, we pulled into one port and I

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Speaker 3: can't remember which it was, but I remember it very

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Speaker 3: distinctly because the day that we went there on the

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Speaker 3: anzac Centenary cruise, and I think you were there on

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Speaker 3: that particular leg, there was a whole bunch of people

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Speaker 3: who had been picked up out in the med and

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Speaker 3: they were parked in the corner of the wharf being

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Speaker 3: watched by the authorities while they organized their dispersal whatever

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Speaker 3: that happened to be. And that brought back memories because

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Speaker 3: nobody from the ship wanted to walk near them. They

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Speaker 3: didn't look exactly what you would call like safe. You

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Speaker 3: look skeptical.

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Speaker 2: Well, the point about angel and Mercy still remains controversial

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Speaker 2: and disagreed on between people. In terms of mass migration

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Speaker 2: into Europe, it remains an enormous issue across Europe and

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Speaker 2: in the UK. Imagine we'll come onto the UK more

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Speaker 2: specifically in a bit is one of in the same

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Speaker 2: way in America. It is one of the key issues

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Speaker 2: facing European countries in the twenty first century. There are

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Speaker 2: many angles to this. I think you've got to remember

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Speaker 2: when Angela Mercle made that decision a decade ago, we

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Speaker 2: were at the height of the Syrian Civil War and

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Speaker 2: plenty of other stuff otherwise going on where people were

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Speaker 2: literally fleeing for their lives. There continue to be thousands,

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Speaker 2: tens of thousands of people trying to escape places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria,

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Speaker 2: Eritrea even in twenty twenty five. And it's a problem

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Speaker 2: faced by Europe in part because of old international agreements

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Speaker 2: like the Refugee Convention, which some argue is now out

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Speaker 2: of date, which was built for a post World War

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Speaker 2: II era where all the refugees in the world were

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Speaker 2: in Europe rather than coming to Europe. And it's a

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Speaker 2: real catch twenty two in many ways because on the

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Speaker 2: one hand, people want to offer genuine asylum seekers refuge

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Speaker 2: if they are escaping a civil war or the Taliban

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Speaker 2: in Afghanistan or the Iranian regime. But at the same

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Speaker 2: time there are clearly plenty of people who are trying

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Speaker 2: to come to Europe and the UK who are what

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Speaker 2: people would call economic migrants as well and want to

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Speaker 2: try and allegedly work the system so that they can

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Speaker 2: move as well. So it's an incredibly difficult issue. I

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Speaker 2: don't envy any politician trying to tackle it, because if

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Speaker 2: it was an easy issue, it would have been sorted

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Speaker 2: out a long time ago.

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Speaker 3: I get lots of mail from some people who are

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Speaker 3: patently connected to the too GV and they are very

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Speaker 3: unhappy about what is going on, and of course they're

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Speaker 3: not alone. Same principle applies to other countries, even even

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Speaker 3: to Australia. New Zealand has its own issues, but they're

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Speaker 3: not as bad as anywhere else, I think, but they

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Speaker 3: could very well become so. The point being that the

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Speaker 3: first chore of a politician of a government is to

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Speaker 3: protect its own country and its own people and prevent

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Speaker 3: things from happening that will destroy that country or might

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Speaker 3: destroy that country. And when you say that you have

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Speaker 3: sympathy for or you express that you have sympathy for

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Speaker 3: politicians in that position, I don't. Why not because they're

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Speaker 3: not doing the job that they should and they don't

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Speaker 3: deserve it. Why not because they don't deserve it. Why

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Speaker 3: because that's not what they're there for, and it's not

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Speaker 3: what people, it's not what their population wants. And so

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Speaker 3: when they start something rolling and it picks up to

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Speaker 3: the pace that it does now, I mean somewhere in

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Speaker 3: this article there's a comment about the irony that Britain,

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Speaker 3: which left the EU partly in order to take back

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Speaker 3: control of its borders, is now an outlier. While irregular

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Speaker 3: crossings into the EU were down eighteen percent in the

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Speaker 3: first seven months of this year, attempted and successful illegal

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Speaker 3: crossings into Britain via the Channel are up twenty six

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Speaker 3: percent in the last year, nearly forty two thousand migrants

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Speaker 3: this year having made the journey so far. Now we

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Speaker 3: get headlines in our part of the world, obviously from

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Speaker 3: the Times and from the Telegraph, and from others the

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Speaker 3: daily mail with the stories that go along with this,

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Speaker 3: turning good quality hotels into resid for single mails for

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Speaker 3: heaven's sake, and most of the people coming in are

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Speaker 3: single males, which isn't going to do the country any good.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's we can talk about that for a bit

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Speaker 2: if you like. There's I'll do a you actually and

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Speaker 2: I'll pull out a piece. A pole came out the

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Speaker 2: week before this podcast will go out that said they

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Speaker 2: ask people in Britain what their top issues are for

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Speaker 2: the country, what they're most worried about. Cost of living

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Speaker 2: was by far and away number one. It was double

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Speaker 2: the number two issue, but for the first time, levels

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Speaker 2: of immigration is number two, and it's just taken over

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Speaker 2: issues around the NHS or supporting the NHS, the National

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Speaker 2: Health Service for the first time, and then relatedly but

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Speaker 2: separated as an issue, asylum seekers crossing the channel is

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Speaker 2: number four, but number two, three and four are all

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Speaker 2: within a few points of each other in terms of

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Speaker 2: what people are worried about. So that's particularly interesting if

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Speaker 2: we stick with just talking about people coming across the channel.

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Speaker 2: So tens of thousands of people are coming across the

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Speaker 2: channel every year on small boats to try and get

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Speaker 2: into the UK and claim asylum. There are many issues

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Speaker 2: with that, not least the fact that it's actually very

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Speaker 2: dangerous to do that because something like on average sixty

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Speaker 2: or so people are shoved onto these rubber dinghies, and

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Speaker 2: every year at least once, if not more, some of

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Speaker 2: these dinghies sink and people dozens of people die. We

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Speaker 2: see that, and so apart from anything else, that's not

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Speaker 2: a great thing in that sense that this has been

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Speaker 2: going on since about twenty eighteen now. The issue is

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Speaker 2: not a simple one of stopping the boats, as people say.

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Speaker 2: It's not a simple one of what Nigel Faraja suggested

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Speaker 2: of doing, or some other people have suggested of doing,

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Speaker 2: of pushing them back into the Channel. And the reason

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Speaker 2: for that is law, not just UK law, but international

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Speaker 2: treaties that the UK has signed a range of things

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Speaker 2: like the Refugee Convention, the European Convention of Human Rights

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Speaker 2: on human rights, the fact that once they leave France,

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Speaker 2: for example, you can't push them back to France because

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Speaker 2: France can say no, Britain, you're sending us people when

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Speaker 2: they're not you're not allowed to. So once they're out

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Speaker 2: of there. It's a huge problem. So what then happens

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Speaker 2: is they arrive in the UK, what do you do

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Speaker 2: with them? You've got to house them somewhere while their

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Speaker 2: asylum claims are being processed, and they have to put

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Speaker 2: them in places like hotels, they have to put them

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Speaker 2: in places like flats and another accommodation. It's a hugely

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Speaker 2: complicated and difficult issue to deal with and a lot

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Speaker 2: of the time, you know, a lot of what's been

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Speaker 2: in particularly in the news recently, is about these asylum

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Speaker 2: hotels in different places and resulting crime that have come

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Speaker 2: from a asylum seekers allegedly who are staying in those hotels,

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Speaker 2: and that's caused a lot of anger amongst people. There's

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Speaker 2: a fair amount of disinformation going on about exactly how

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Speaker 2: that's being done and what's actually being done. But the

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Speaker 2: fact is that people are worried about it. The other

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Speaker 2: thing to keep in mind, though, is asylum seekers are

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Speaker 2: a tiny fraction of immigration into the UK. And what's

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Speaker 2: really interesting about this, and if you want to cross

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Speaker 2: compare some polls here, you've got this pole which says

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Speaker 2: that people are worried about immigration is the second most

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Speaker 2: second largest thing that they're concerned about in the UK

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Speaker 2: right now, and levels of immigration in the UK, in

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Speaker 2: large part thanks to Boris Johnson changing the rules quite

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Speaker 2: dramatically after Brexit has skyrocketed. So thirty years ago, or

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Speaker 2: so thirty five years ago, in nineteen ninety net migration

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Speaker 2: people coming in and going out was basically zero. Five

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Speaker 2: years ten years after that arose to about two hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand a year net migration, so two hundred thousand people

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Speaker 2: more coming and every year that continued to rise steadily.

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Speaker 2: But after twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, I think

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Speaker 2: when they changed the immigration rules after Brexit, that skyrocketed

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Speaker 2: to I think a peak of about nine hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: people in net migration in twenty twenty three, I believe,

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Speaker 2: or twenty twenty two, and that was then up there

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Speaker 2: for a while. Ironically, last year twenty twenty four it

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Speaker 2: actually dropped down to about half of that, back to

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Speaker 2: around four hundred and fifty thousand, thanks to the changes

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Speaker 2: that the last government made. But the point I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to make is people are worried about levels of immigration,

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Speaker 2: but there's a huge misconception of who immigrants are in

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Speaker 2: the UK. So this poll that came out last month,

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Speaker 2: ask people, are you concerned about immigration? That sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: The majority of the people polled in this poll believed

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Speaker 2: that most immigrants in the UK are asylum seekers, are

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Speaker 2: for economic migrants or however you want to call them,

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Speaker 2: but they are people coming in not through legal visa ways.

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Speaker 2: The actual number is about four percent, So most people

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Speaker 2: think that most of the immigration into the UK is

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Speaker 2: quote unquote illegal. That's a different issue that I have

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Speaker 2: problems with the term illegal, because that's another matter. But

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Speaker 2: the actual reality is that only four percent of people

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Speaker 2: coming into the UK are doing so to claim asylum.

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Speaker 2: Now you can have another there's another debate to be

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Speaker 2: had about whether that level of immigration is sustainable. You know,

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Speaker 2: nine hundred thousand people coming into a country of seventy

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Speaker 2: million or so.

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Speaker 3: Since twenty fifteen, more than seven and a half million

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Speaker 3: million asylum claims have been made across the EU. Now

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Speaker 3: that's not here, but that's a cross everywhere. But it's

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Speaker 3: a massive number. And the numbers, the numbers keep rolling in,

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Speaker 3: and they keep rolling in because they can, because they can,

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Speaker 3: because they get away with it, because people, because people

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Speaker 3: in positions of doing something think about it to guphlas

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Speaker 3: to take a stand more concerned about their own life

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Speaker 3: and their own future. And I'm talking about any politician

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Speaker 3: that you want a name, and it's about time that

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Speaker 3: Britain's revolted.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that. Well, let me talk about two things.

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Speaker 2: There is a question over in the first place, whether

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Speaker 2: or not immigration and mass immigration. And I'm conscious on

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Speaker 2: the point when I'm talking here that I'm an immigrant,

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Speaker 2: so well that has read. I'm reserving that whether or

401
00:24:42,413 --> 00:24:44,973
Speaker 2: not that's actually a bad thing, and a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people argue it's actually a very good thing.

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Speaker 2: And in many ways, the meager growth that the UK

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Speaker 2: has seen in recent years is in large part thanks

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Speaker 2: to immigration. And we will come on to this, I know,

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Speaker 2: but the UK has a lot of particularly economic issues

407
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Speaker 2: at the moment, and immigration, in many ways is an

408
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Speaker 2: easy thing to point at blame for a lot of

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Speaker 2: the problems in the country, which I don't think is fair.

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Speaker 2: The other side of the coin is and I was

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Speaker 2: listening to an interview with the former Director of Public

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Speaker 2: Prosecutions here, who's sort of the chief prosecutor in the UK.

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Speaker 2: It's the role the keystam of the Prime Minister had

414
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Speaker 2: himself as well. It's kind of how he got his name.

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Speaker 2: But this was a different guy whose name escapes me.

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Speaker 2: But I was listening to an interview with him. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's what's called a cross bench peer. He sits in

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Speaker 2: the House of Lords now, but he's not affiliated with

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Speaker 2: a party. He's neutral, effectively, and he was suggesting that

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Speaker 2: a lot of these old conventions, like the Refugee Convention,

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Speaker 2: which were should perhaps be revisited, and in Europe in particular,

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Speaker 2: many of them are being revisited, as well as the

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Speaker 2: European Convention of Human Rights, for which the right of

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Speaker 2: family life has been interpreted allegedly in a very broadway.

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Speaker 2: And this is an created a lot of these difficulties

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Speaker 2: for politicians in trying to stop asylum seekers coming because basically,

427
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Speaker 2: the courts are saying, well, here's the law, guys, and

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Speaker 2: you agreed to these conventions and therefore these people coming

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Speaker 2: are entitled to do so. And this former Director of

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Speaker 2: Public Prosecutions was saying that we need to be looking

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Speaker 2: at these because this is part of the part of

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Speaker 2: the difficulty with stopping these people, because if they come

433
00:26:38,333 --> 00:26:40,973
Speaker 2: and make a claim under the law is the government

434
00:26:40,973 --> 00:26:42,013
Speaker 2: can't do much about it.

435
00:26:43,893 --> 00:26:49,493
Speaker 3: I have trouble accepting that there would patently be exceptions

436
00:26:49,533 --> 00:26:53,533
Speaker 3: to the rule of law under certain circumstances. Now it's

437
00:26:53,613 --> 00:26:58,453
Speaker 3: very easy for instances to refer to this, as has

438
00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:01,493
Speaker 3: been done in the United States, to refer to this

439
00:27:01,813 --> 00:27:05,853
Speaker 3: massive number of people who are crashing in without legitimacy,

440
00:27:06,453 --> 00:27:10,893
Speaker 3: that it's an invasion, and a government has a responsibility

441
00:27:10,973 --> 00:27:12,293
Speaker 3: to do something.

442
00:27:12,013 --> 00:27:15,093
Speaker 2: About an invasion. An invasion by who, by the immigrants.

443
00:27:16,253 --> 00:27:18,733
Speaker 2: I don't like that word invasion. I think it's a

444
00:27:19,413 --> 00:27:24,933
Speaker 2: it's a massive misrepresentation of what that word actually means everyone. Everyone.

445
00:27:24,973 --> 00:27:29,733
Speaker 2: If you hear invasion, well there's an army of young men,

446
00:27:31,093 --> 00:27:34,653
Speaker 2: But you hear invasion, you think you know Napoleon coming

447
00:27:34,693 --> 00:27:40,613
Speaker 2: over the channel. You don't think you know civilians trying

448
00:27:40,653 --> 00:27:44,733
Speaker 2: to move to another country as by the bye. Maybe

449
00:27:44,773 --> 00:27:48,133
Speaker 2: maybe one should, But I do think that the way

450
00:27:48,173 --> 00:27:53,253
Speaker 2: that that language like that is used is creating wider issues.

451
00:27:54,173 --> 00:27:56,093
Speaker 2: And I think it's one of the interesting things where

452
00:27:56,133 --> 00:27:57,933
Speaker 2: you know, you get these poles where people say they're

453
00:27:57,973 --> 00:28:01,533
Speaker 2: concerned about these things. It's a bit of a chicken

454
00:28:01,573 --> 00:28:04,773
Speaker 2: in the egg scenario. Sometimes, are people concerned about these

455
00:28:04,813 --> 00:28:07,373
Speaker 2: things because they're having negative impacts. Or are people concerned

456
00:28:07,373 --> 00:28:09,813
Speaker 2: about these things because the being told it's a bad thing,

457
00:28:10,293 --> 00:28:12,933
Speaker 2: because people like Nigel Faraj are saying it's a bad thing,

458
00:28:13,093 --> 00:28:18,973
Speaker 2: are using word like invasion. Interesting question with Nige. I know.

459
00:28:21,893 --> 00:28:24,493
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned something a moment ago and I was

460
00:28:24,613 --> 00:28:30,573
Speaker 3: I was reserving it. I've heard some frustrations from you

461
00:28:31,533 --> 00:28:34,053
Speaker 3: over a period of time because you you are here

462
00:28:36,413 --> 00:28:39,213
Speaker 3: on what you came over on a on a work

463
00:28:39,293 --> 00:28:44,813
Speaker 3: visa limited one and that expired some time ago, and

464
00:28:44,853 --> 00:28:47,893
Speaker 3: you're still here and you can't get citizenship.

465
00:28:47,933 --> 00:28:49,773
Speaker 2: Are you outing me as an illegal immigrant?

466
00:28:50,013 --> 00:28:52,973
Speaker 3: No, because you are here because you are here legally.

467
00:28:54,013 --> 00:28:57,053
Speaker 3: But you are frustrated by it, And I want I

468
00:28:57,133 --> 00:29:01,693
Speaker 3: wonder how you you truly feel that there are people

469
00:29:01,733 --> 00:29:04,053
Speaker 3: flooding into the country and getting away with it and

470
00:29:04,093 --> 00:29:08,533
Speaker 3: being catered for and paid paid for doing nothing and

471
00:29:08,573 --> 00:29:12,733
Speaker 3: committing crimes when you, who are a productive individual would

472
00:29:12,773 --> 00:29:16,733
Speaker 3: add to both the culture and the success of this

473
00:29:16,853 --> 00:29:21,373
Speaker 3: country or its growth, can't get permanent residency and every

474
00:29:21,373 --> 00:29:23,653
Speaker 3: time you leave the country you're nervous you can't get

475
00:29:23,653 --> 00:29:24,213
Speaker 3: back in again.

476
00:29:24,733 --> 00:29:28,413
Speaker 2: Wow. No, I mean this isn't Trump's America. Not that nervous.

477
00:29:29,493 --> 00:29:31,813
Speaker 3: No legitimate person in America is nervous.

478
00:29:34,613 --> 00:29:37,853
Speaker 2: Well, look a couple of issues with that. First of all,

479
00:29:38,133 --> 00:29:40,773
Speaker 2: people flooding in and getting away with it. About half

480
00:29:40,813 --> 00:29:42,693
Speaker 2: of the people that come here and claim asylum get

481
00:29:42,693 --> 00:29:45,773
Speaker 2: thrown out once their claims are heard. Part of the

482
00:29:45,813 --> 00:29:47,573
Speaker 2: issue that the UK has had for a long time

483
00:29:47,613 --> 00:29:50,453
Speaker 2: with these asylum seekers. When I say issue, I mean

484
00:29:50,613 --> 00:29:57,293
Speaker 2: difficulty in solving solving the issue is the last government,

485
00:29:57,333 --> 00:30:02,093
Speaker 2: the Conservative government, fairly deliberately created a huge backclog of

486
00:30:02,133 --> 00:30:05,493
Speaker 2: these applications to be processed, which the current government is

487
00:30:05,533 --> 00:30:08,293
Speaker 2: trying to fix. And that's why there are so many

488
00:30:08,373 --> 00:30:11,413
Speaker 2: people in hotels and other things like that, because there

489
00:30:11,453 --> 00:30:15,173
Speaker 2: was this backlog of them being processed. There is an

490
00:30:15,293 --> 00:30:19,053
Speaker 2: argument to be made about people manipulating the system and

491
00:30:19,133 --> 00:30:22,933
Speaker 2: being able to claim asylum when you know, they sort

492
00:30:22,973 --> 00:30:24,413
Speaker 2: of know what they need to say to do. So

493
00:30:24,493 --> 00:30:26,933
Speaker 2: that's what some lawyers have suggested. I've also spoken to

494
00:30:26,973 --> 00:30:30,453
Speaker 2: other lawyers who suggest the opposite, and who say that

495
00:30:31,013 --> 00:30:34,453
Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff is being misrepresented. Anyway, to

496
00:30:34,573 --> 00:30:36,893
Speaker 2: answer you a question about that sort of thing, well, look,

497
00:30:37,533 --> 00:30:40,693
Speaker 2: I think it's a really difficult issue. I'm from New Zealand.

498
00:30:40,853 --> 00:30:44,653
Speaker 2: It's a fantastic country and I love it and what

499
00:30:44,893 --> 00:30:47,773
Speaker 2: gives me the right over someone else necessarily to be here.

500
00:30:48,453 --> 00:30:51,413
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful that I get to be here, but

501
00:30:51,493 --> 00:30:55,333
Speaker 2: I actually it's not something I think about that much

502
00:30:55,453 --> 00:30:59,853
Speaker 2: in terms of people other people who try and come

503
00:30:59,893 --> 00:31:07,013
Speaker 2: here allegedly for incorrect reasons. I suppose, generally speaking, if

504
00:31:07,053 --> 00:31:10,853
Speaker 2: you're getting on a boat across the channel, you're taking

505
00:31:10,893 --> 00:31:13,573
Speaker 2: a huge risk with your life, and I'm lucky I

506
00:31:13,573 --> 00:31:15,173
Speaker 2: don't have to put myself in that position.

507
00:31:16,133 --> 00:31:18,773
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say it was a huge threat to your life.

508
00:31:19,573 --> 00:31:23,253
Speaker 3: But dozens of people die every year doing well. Some

509
00:31:23,533 --> 00:31:27,093
Speaker 3: do yes, but it's a small percentage of the greater

510
00:31:27,373 --> 00:31:31,453
Speaker 3: of the greater, and not everybody is aware that they're

511
00:31:31,493 --> 00:31:35,253
Speaker 3: really taking their life into their own hands in doing that.

512
00:31:36,093 --> 00:31:38,013
Speaker 3: They just think that they're going to take a short

513
00:31:38,013 --> 00:31:41,173
Speaker 3: boat right across and the gates to Heaven are open

514
00:31:41,213 --> 00:31:42,053
Speaker 3: for them.

515
00:31:42,773 --> 00:31:45,013
Speaker 2: Well, and in many ways, that's one of the issues

516
00:31:45,053 --> 00:31:48,133
Speaker 2: that both the UK and European governments are trying to stop,

517
00:31:48,173 --> 00:31:54,933
Speaker 2: which is the misinformation that these gangs, these international networks

518
00:31:55,573 --> 00:31:59,293
Speaker 2: are selling people saying you can get to Britain easily,

519
00:31:59,373 --> 00:32:00,533
Speaker 2: you can get a job easily.

520
00:32:00,533 --> 00:32:05,493
Speaker 3: It's safe, it's fine. Just a diversion question. Actually, well,

521
00:32:05,813 --> 00:32:10,133
Speaker 3: we've spent enough time on the crime that's in London

522
00:32:10,613 --> 00:32:14,333
Speaker 3: these days, in particular, how has that changed for the

523
00:32:14,413 --> 00:32:16,533
Speaker 3: last two years.

524
00:32:17,013 --> 00:32:18,853
Speaker 2: I don't think it has changed much. It was bad then,

525
00:32:18,893 --> 00:32:22,493
Speaker 2: it's bad now. London's always been. It's a big city.

526
00:32:23,173 --> 00:32:26,053
Speaker 2: Big cities are dangerous. I don't think it's anything on

527
00:32:26,093 --> 00:32:28,053
Speaker 2: the sort of gun crime level you have in the States,

528
00:32:28,093 --> 00:32:31,693
Speaker 2: for example, in terms of statistics, but there is plenty

529
00:32:31,693 --> 00:32:33,053
Speaker 2: of crime in the UK and a lot of that

530
00:32:33,093 --> 00:32:35,173
Speaker 2: comes down to the fact that the police don't have

531
00:32:35,213 --> 00:32:37,453
Speaker 2: the resources to enforce the law.

532
00:32:39,533 --> 00:32:42,093
Speaker 3: When you say the resources, you mean the manpower or

533
00:32:42,093 --> 00:32:43,773
Speaker 3: the person power or what.

534
00:32:44,293 --> 00:32:47,093
Speaker 2: I don't know, but there's a lot of There are

535
00:32:47,133 --> 00:32:49,893
Speaker 2: a lot of examples of the police. Shoplifting is a

536
00:32:49,973 --> 00:32:53,893
Speaker 2: very good example of the police basically saying we can't

537
00:32:53,933 --> 00:32:57,773
Speaker 2: help because we don't have the resources to do so.

538
00:32:57,893 --> 00:33:00,053
Speaker 3: Right now, Okay, so now we're talking about London, and

539
00:33:00,093 --> 00:33:05,413
Speaker 3: we're talking about the rules of life in London and

540
00:33:05,453 --> 00:33:09,653
Speaker 3: the Mayor of London, who is probably the biggest disaster

541
00:33:09,813 --> 00:33:13,813
Speaker 3: that London's ever had. There's a lot of young people

542
00:33:13,933 --> 00:33:18,253
Speaker 3: involved in crime. I'll give you two examples. Went to

543
00:33:18,293 --> 00:33:21,133
Speaker 3: the co Op store down here. Where are we in London?

544
00:33:21,813 --> 00:33:25,133
Speaker 2: Where in Stretham Hill, which is just down the road

545
00:33:25,173 --> 00:33:28,573
Speaker 2: from Brixton, which people might know more about. And Brixton's

546
00:33:28,573 --> 00:33:32,413
Speaker 2: in South London. It's sort of a lot of New

547
00:33:32,493 --> 00:33:34,613
Speaker 2: Zealanders moved to a place called Clapham when they first

548
00:33:34,613 --> 00:33:38,573
Speaker 2: come here. Clapham's about a ten to fifteen minute bus

549
00:33:38,613 --> 00:33:41,693
Speaker 2: ride from where we are now to the northwest, but

550
00:33:41,733 --> 00:33:45,573
Speaker 2: we're sort of directly south of the middle of London. Okay.

551
00:33:46,533 --> 00:33:49,653
Speaker 3: Back in the day where my folks ended up in

552
00:33:49,693 --> 00:33:52,653
Speaker 3: Little's Court along with every other New Zealander in Australia

553
00:33:53,253 --> 00:33:57,253
Speaker 3: who was coming to London, and Princess Diana, it was headquarters.

554
00:33:57,293 --> 00:33:58,773
Speaker 2: Yeah.

555
00:33:59,013 --> 00:34:05,493
Speaker 3: Princess an turned seventy five last week August fifteen. Do

556
00:34:05,533 --> 00:34:08,493
Speaker 3: you have any opinion on her and her role in

557
00:34:08,813 --> 00:34:10,533
Speaker 3: lifetare her contribution.

558
00:34:11,533 --> 00:34:16,053
Speaker 2: Interesting question? Do I have an opinion? I think Princess

559
00:34:16,093 --> 00:34:24,213
Speaker 2: Anne is generally really well respected. I think I'm trying

560
00:34:24,213 --> 00:34:27,173
Speaker 2: to distinguish between what I know about her from watching

561
00:34:27,213 --> 00:34:31,013
Speaker 2: The Crown and actual real life, but I think she's

562
00:34:31,053 --> 00:34:33,693
Speaker 2: generally very well respected. I think she's seen as a

563
00:34:36,493 --> 00:34:42,213
Speaker 2: no nonsense, respectable and respected character.

564
00:34:43,333 --> 00:34:46,053
Speaker 3: You think she might have been better than the older

565
00:34:46,093 --> 00:34:49,053
Speaker 3: brother that now it sits.

566
00:34:50,853 --> 00:34:52,653
Speaker 2: That would require me to have an opinion on the

567
00:34:52,693 --> 00:35:00,013
Speaker 2: older brother. I don't know what do you think? Absolutely why?

568
00:35:00,973 --> 00:35:03,173
Speaker 2: My feelings about the older brother are pretty well known.

569
00:35:05,213 --> 00:35:08,773
Speaker 2: Don't forget I've dined with him, I've interviewed him, I've

570
00:35:08,773 --> 00:35:12,853
Speaker 2: had an argument in an interview with him, and I

571
00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:19,733
Speaker 2: think he's wet. It's that simple. It's interesting. I think

572
00:35:19,733 --> 00:35:25,573
Speaker 2: that generally speaking, now that he is king, people pay

573
00:35:25,693 --> 00:35:30,573
Speaker 2: him the respect that his mother got here in the UK.

574
00:35:30,653 --> 00:35:34,533
Speaker 2: I'd say, perhaps not with the same level of passion,

575
00:35:34,693 --> 00:35:38,533
Speaker 2: which he hasn't earned well, but by virtue of his

576
00:35:38,653 --> 00:35:42,253
Speaker 2: role as the king now he's somewhat untouchable. It would

577
00:35:42,293 --> 00:35:44,853
Speaker 2: be my interpretation, But I can't say I'm a massive

578
00:35:44,893 --> 00:35:45,653
Speaker 2: royal follower.

579
00:35:47,973 --> 00:35:50,853
Speaker 3: Talk to me about the economic woes of this country,

580
00:35:50,853 --> 00:35:53,013
Speaker 3: because they are a plenty.

581
00:35:53,493 --> 00:35:57,093
Speaker 2: Where to begin, well, I'll begin by saying that I

582
00:35:57,133 --> 00:36:00,053
Speaker 2: love the UK. There's a reason I live here before

583
00:36:00,093 --> 00:36:05,093
Speaker 2: I slam its economic issues. It's a fantastic place for

584
00:36:05,133 --> 00:36:10,653
Speaker 2: many reasons. But I think that even the most passionate

585
00:36:12,293 --> 00:36:18,333
Speaker 2: brit would happily acknowledge that economically the UK is in

586
00:36:18,333 --> 00:36:23,093
Speaker 2: a lot of trouble, much like in the nineteen seventies

587
00:36:23,133 --> 00:36:26,653
Speaker 2: where that quote at the start from James Callahan came from.

588
00:36:27,613 --> 00:36:31,613
Speaker 2: There are many reasons why this might be. The UK

589
00:36:31,773 --> 00:36:34,693
Speaker 2: has faced lots of international issues like New Zealand has,

590
00:36:34,693 --> 00:36:37,493
Speaker 2: like Australia has, like lots of European countries, how like,

591
00:36:37,853 --> 00:36:40,973
Speaker 2: to a lesser extent, like the US, But the UK

592
00:36:41,053 --> 00:36:45,773
Speaker 2: has sort of come out worse on many measurements than

593
00:36:45,973 --> 00:36:51,693
Speaker 2: comparator countries. And obviously there's a huge debate over why

594
00:36:51,733 --> 00:36:53,373
Speaker 2: this is, and there's a huge debate over what to

595
00:36:53,413 --> 00:36:55,773
Speaker 2: do about it. And I think generally speaking, part of

596
00:36:55,813 --> 00:36:59,093
Speaker 2: the issue is people don't necessarily have a very good answer,

597
00:36:59,733 --> 00:37:04,293
Speaker 2: but I will pull out some very interesting statistics or

598
00:37:04,373 --> 00:37:10,493
Speaker 2: examples of issues. Last year a policy paper, an essay

599
00:37:10,773 --> 00:37:14,053
Speaker 2: for want of a better word, went around influential people

600
00:37:14,173 --> 00:37:18,333
Speaker 2: in politics here, written by people who basically worked for

601
00:37:18,453 --> 00:37:21,173
Speaker 2: a think tank like place, and it pulled out some

602
00:37:21,253 --> 00:37:23,693
Speaker 2: examples of some of the issues that the UK faces,

603
00:37:23,733 --> 00:37:29,253
Speaker 2: and I think they are really really interesting. Since twenty

604
00:37:29,653 --> 00:37:32,533
Speaker 2: ten or two thousand and eight, rather sorry, since two

605
00:37:32,573 --> 00:37:36,533
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, real wage growth has been flat in

606
00:37:36,573 --> 00:37:41,333
Speaker 2: the UK. Average weekly wages are only zero point eight

607
00:37:41,373 --> 00:37:44,533
Speaker 2: percent higher today than they were in two thousand and eight.

608
00:37:45,253 --> 00:37:49,413
Speaker 2: In many ways, the UK hasn't really recovered from the GFC.

609
00:37:50,173 --> 00:37:54,333
Speaker 2: Annual real wages are seven percent lower for the media

610
00:37:54,333 --> 00:37:56,053
Speaker 2: and full time worker to day than they were in

611
00:37:56,053 --> 00:38:00,933
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight. The planning documentation. Here's an example,

612
00:38:00,973 --> 00:38:04,013
Speaker 2: the planning documentation for the Lower Thames Crossing, which is

613
00:38:04,013 --> 00:38:06,853
Speaker 2: a bridge over the Thames. I was rather sorry, a

614
00:38:06,893 --> 00:38:10,053
Speaker 2: tunnel under the Thames which was going to connect to

615
00:38:10,093 --> 00:38:17,573
Speaker 2: the counties of Kent and Essex. The documentation is three

616
00:38:17,693 --> 00:38:24,453
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty thousand pages long. The application process alone

617
00:38:25,213 --> 00:38:28,893
Speaker 2: has cost nearly three hundred million pounds. This was written

618
00:38:28,933 --> 00:38:32,413
Speaker 2: about a year ago. The application alone, the application alone.

619
00:38:32,453 --> 00:38:37,613
Speaker 2: Who's paid for that, Well, the taxpayer, I'd say, good guess.

620
00:38:38,773 --> 00:38:42,813
Speaker 2: That is more than twice the cost for Norway to

621
00:38:42,973 --> 00:38:47,693
Speaker 2: actually build, not just planned, but build the longest road

622
00:38:47,773 --> 00:38:53,413
Speaker 2: tunnel in the world. Here's another example. At three hundred

623
00:38:53,413 --> 00:38:57,093
Speaker 2: and ninety six million pounds each mile of the HS

624
00:38:57,133 --> 00:39:01,893
Speaker 2: two railway that's high speed railway, which is sort of

625
00:39:01,973 --> 00:39:03,853
Speaker 2: maybe in the process of being built in the UK.

626
00:39:04,013 --> 00:39:06,933
Speaker 2: We might come onto that that it was originally meant

627
00:39:06,933 --> 00:39:11,653
Speaker 2: to connect London, Birmingham Manchester at three hundred and ninety

628
00:39:11,653 --> 00:39:14,373
Speaker 2: six million pounds each mile of that will cost more

629
00:39:14,413 --> 00:39:19,093
Speaker 2: than four times the cost of the Naples Tabari high

630
00:39:19,133 --> 00:39:22,173
Speaker 2: speed railway line in Italy, and it will be more

631
00:39:22,213 --> 00:39:26,533
Speaker 2: than eight times the cost of France's high speed link

632
00:39:26,933 --> 00:39:32,293
Speaker 2: between Tour and Bordeaux. These are all somewhat bland sort

633
00:39:32,293 --> 00:39:36,133
Speaker 2: of structural economic foundational issues, but they're fascinating because they

634
00:39:36,213 --> 00:39:39,653
Speaker 2: go a long way to explaining things. Between twenty four

635
00:39:39,653 --> 00:39:43,213
Speaker 2: and twenty twenty one, the industrial price of energy tripled

636
00:39:43,213 --> 00:39:46,893
Speaker 2: in nominal terms in the UK, or doubled relative to

637
00:39:46,893 --> 00:39:50,093
Speaker 2: consumer prices, so it went up twice as fast as

638
00:39:50,133 --> 00:39:54,613
Speaker 2: other prices. And energy costs, as you will know, is

639
00:39:54,733 --> 00:39:59,653
Speaker 2: one of the largest issues with production, both here in

640
00:39:59,693 --> 00:40:02,213
Speaker 2: the UK and in any other country. Really, we've all

641
00:40:02,253 --> 00:40:07,413
Speaker 2: got it. It's all through the same incompetence. There's a

642
00:40:07,453 --> 00:40:09,053
Speaker 2: few more of these, but the that's one I'll say

643
00:40:09,373 --> 00:40:13,493
Speaker 2: is Britain has not built a new water reservoir since

644
00:40:13,573 --> 00:40:17,293
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two. In that time, its population has grown

645
00:40:17,333 --> 00:40:21,133
Speaker 2: by ten million, and water reservoirs not only are they

646
00:40:21,173 --> 00:40:24,013
Speaker 2: about to become increasingly important because they're needed for what

647
00:40:24,173 --> 00:40:28,533
Speaker 2: water is needed for AI and data centers. To keep

648
00:40:28,573 --> 00:40:32,213
Speaker 2: them cool basically is a huge issue. But also because

649
00:40:32,533 --> 00:40:36,093
Speaker 2: you have an expanding population, you need more water. But

650
00:40:36,173 --> 00:40:38,373
Speaker 2: with ten more million people added to the population in

651
00:40:38,413 --> 00:40:43,093
Speaker 2: the last thirty or so years, no more water reservoirs

652
00:40:43,333 --> 00:40:46,133
Speaker 2: have been built. And in large part what this reflects

653
00:40:46,773 --> 00:40:50,893
Speaker 2: is a fundamental issue with the desire to invest and

654
00:40:50,973 --> 00:40:54,093
Speaker 2: plan properly for the UK, and what we're seeing, in

655
00:40:54,213 --> 00:40:56,053
Speaker 2: large part in many of the issues in the UK

656
00:40:56,213 --> 00:40:59,613
Speaker 2: now is the fruition of a lack of investment in planning.

657
00:40:59,413 --> 00:41:02,853
Speaker 3: Okay, lack of imagination, lack of drive, lack of all

658
00:41:02,893 --> 00:41:09,453
Speaker 3: sorts of things, character, strength of character, which the politicians

659
00:41:09,453 --> 00:41:13,333
Speaker 3: of this country and others are fading in.

660
00:41:13,693 --> 00:41:13,893
Speaker 2: Now.

661
00:41:13,933 --> 00:41:19,093
Speaker 3: If I turn around, I can see a paddock outside

662
00:41:19,093 --> 00:41:19,813
Speaker 3: of this window.

663
00:41:20,253 --> 00:41:22,373
Speaker 2: We're on the what are we on the third floord floor?

664
00:41:22,893 --> 00:41:26,373
Speaker 3: And there's a paddock and it's what did you say

665
00:41:26,413 --> 00:41:32,013
Speaker 3: it was two acres? Yeah, I'd say so. It's two

666
00:41:32,093 --> 00:41:35,213
Speaker 3: football fields, two rugby fields high. Reckon, it's bigger than

667
00:41:35,253 --> 00:41:37,013
Speaker 3: that anyway. That's the point.

668
00:41:36,773 --> 00:41:38,573
Speaker 2: Is what's it's It's.

669
00:41:38,373 --> 00:41:42,013
Speaker 3: Got grass growing on it, sort of weeds and stuff,

670
00:41:42,373 --> 00:41:45,973
Speaker 3: But the important thing is what's underneath the surface to

671
00:41:46,013 --> 00:41:46,693
Speaker 3: the reservoir.

672
00:41:48,413 --> 00:41:50,093
Speaker 2: It's great for me. It means they can't build on

673
00:41:50,133 --> 00:41:51,733
Speaker 2: it and I get my nice view of a bit

674
00:41:51,733 --> 00:41:54,493
Speaker 2: of green, which is worth gold in London.

675
00:41:56,053 --> 00:41:59,293
Speaker 3: It's an amazing thing. When he told me initially that

676
00:41:59,293 --> 00:42:01,053
Speaker 3: that's what it was and there was a big reservoir

677
00:42:01,093 --> 00:42:02,253
Speaker 3: under there, I couldn't believe it.

678
00:42:03,693 --> 00:42:04,733
Speaker 2: But I'm glad to see it.

679
00:42:05,333 --> 00:42:10,613
Speaker 3: So, just in your opinion, do you think that Britain

680
00:42:10,813 --> 00:42:15,773
Speaker 3: has the brain power to resolve the issues that we've

681
00:42:15,773 --> 00:42:16,773
Speaker 3: been talking about.

682
00:42:18,133 --> 00:42:20,653
Speaker 2: I think it absolutely has the brain power. I mean,

683
00:42:20,893 --> 00:42:23,573
Speaker 2: the UK remains one of the kind of world hubs

684
00:42:23,653 --> 00:42:25,693
Speaker 2: of international brain power, if you want to put it

685
00:42:25,733 --> 00:42:30,253
Speaker 2: that way. The university and cities of Oxford and Cambridge

686
00:42:30,253 --> 00:42:35,773
Speaker 2: alone are enormously internationally influential and attract many of the

687
00:42:35,773 --> 00:42:40,293
Speaker 2: best scientists and engineers and all the technology people and

688
00:42:40,333 --> 00:42:43,533
Speaker 2: all that sort of thing. The thing about the UK

689
00:42:43,613 --> 00:42:46,613
Speaker 2: as well is that you know it's again if you

690
00:42:46,613 --> 00:42:50,493
Speaker 2: look at the nineteen seventies and Jim Callahan's quote, it's

691
00:42:50,533 --> 00:42:53,973
Speaker 2: been here before in terms of it has ups and

692
00:42:54,013 --> 00:42:56,573
Speaker 2: downs like any country and it does a remarkable job

693
00:42:56,813 --> 00:43:01,253
Speaker 2: of pulling through. So I think there are good days ahead,

694
00:43:01,413 --> 00:43:04,573
Speaker 2: there are bright dawns ahead for the UK, but somebody

695
00:43:04,613 --> 00:43:08,213
Speaker 2: has to figure out how to make that work.

696
00:43:08,493 --> 00:43:12,213
Speaker 3: Incidentally, in the same edition of The Spectator, there's an

697
00:43:12,293 --> 00:43:15,613
Speaker 3: article by somebody we've done on the podcast a couple

698
00:43:15,653 --> 00:43:22,973
Speaker 3: of times, Jonathan Sumption of human bondage jonathansumption on an

699
00:43:23,013 --> 00:43:27,093
Speaker 3: age old enduring evil. But he's what he's doing is

700
00:43:27,133 --> 00:43:31,613
Speaker 3: reviewing a couple of books on slavery. And there's no

701
00:43:31,733 --> 00:43:35,893
Speaker 3: question about his intelligence, but some of his interpretations and

702
00:43:36,173 --> 00:43:41,653
Speaker 3: attitudes I struggle with. Albeit that he has recognized, as

703
00:43:41,693 --> 00:43:46,373
Speaker 3: I say, as the brain of Britain, are there enough

704
00:43:46,373 --> 00:43:51,733
Speaker 3: people around who can take charge of things and actually

705
00:43:51,773 --> 00:43:56,133
Speaker 3: achieve achieve change? I mean, you've got to put yourself

706
00:43:56,173 --> 00:44:00,693
Speaker 3: on the line sometime. I think Americans are great at it,

707
00:44:01,293 --> 00:44:03,893
Speaker 3: and they're also bad at it too. It depends which

708
00:44:03,933 --> 00:44:07,013
Speaker 3: side of the fence you're on. But is the system

709
00:44:07,133 --> 00:44:12,173
Speaker 3: here flexible enough to be utilized to change direction?

710
00:44:13,453 --> 00:44:17,253
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a very good question. I read a very

711
00:44:17,293 --> 00:44:20,813
Speaker 2: good book last year called How Westminster Works and Why

712
00:44:20,853 --> 00:44:24,853
Speaker 2: It Doesn't, probably written by someone that you wouldn't like

713
00:44:24,933 --> 00:44:28,173
Speaker 2: very much. Because he sits left of center doesn't mean

714
00:44:28,173 --> 00:44:33,973
Speaker 2: he can't be right, I agree, but he broke down

715
00:44:34,133 --> 00:44:37,653
Speaker 2: very well a lot of the fundamental issues with the

716
00:44:37,693 --> 00:44:40,653
Speaker 2: way the political system here works and how in many

717
00:44:40,693 --> 00:44:46,693
Speaker 2: ways it has become designed not to make mass change.

718
00:44:46,813 --> 00:44:49,253
Speaker 2: I mean, in many ways the UK has always done

719
00:44:49,333 --> 00:44:53,693
Speaker 2: things slowly and incrementally over the centuries it has. So

720
00:44:53,733 --> 00:44:56,453
Speaker 2: when you ask is the ability to sort of make

721
00:44:56,813 --> 00:45:00,253
Speaker 2: significant change that might be needed, I think in the

722
00:45:00,253 --> 00:45:02,613
Speaker 2: first place, you need an idea of what that change

723
00:45:02,693 --> 00:45:06,253
Speaker 2: might be, and I think there's a lack of plan.

724
00:45:06,813 --> 00:45:11,013
Speaker 2: There's a lack of idea ideas to make that change

725
00:45:11,013 --> 00:45:12,813
Speaker 2: at the moment. And that's not unique to the UK

726
00:45:13,453 --> 00:45:15,933
Speaker 2: in much the same way as that the immigration issue

727
00:45:16,293 --> 00:45:19,813
Speaker 2: or the asylum issue is a reflection I think of

728
00:45:21,773 --> 00:45:24,493
Speaker 2: other things and that people asked trying to figure out

729
00:45:24,613 --> 00:45:31,413
Speaker 2: ways to make that change, to create solutions. And again,

730
00:45:31,573 --> 00:45:35,333
Speaker 2: you know, I think the state of the UK has

731
00:45:35,533 --> 00:45:39,373
Speaker 2: many good reflections with the state of New Zealand in

732
00:45:39,413 --> 00:45:45,173
Speaker 2: the sense that there are not that many inspiring ideas

733
00:45:45,693 --> 00:45:47,813
Speaker 2: or plans in the same way that you might have

734
00:45:47,933 --> 00:45:52,053
Speaker 2: had with let's say Tony Blair's government or the post

735
00:45:52,053 --> 00:45:54,973
Speaker 2: World War II government in the UK, or Margaret Thatcher's government.

736
00:45:55,373 --> 00:46:00,493
Speaker 2: There aren't radical proposals yet to sort that out. And

737
00:46:00,573 --> 00:46:07,093
Speaker 2: while you know Nigel Farage's party is gaining popularity rapidly,

738
00:46:08,133 --> 00:46:12,173
Speaker 2: in the basic breakdown of the actual propositions he has

739
00:46:13,013 --> 00:46:15,693
Speaker 2: to make changes don't add up. I mean quite frankly.

740
00:46:15,773 --> 00:46:18,533
Speaker 2: He admitted after the last election that when one of

741
00:46:18,573 --> 00:46:25,333
Speaker 2: the most respected center center ground think tanks broke down

742
00:46:25,613 --> 00:46:29,133
Speaker 2: their policy that their economic plans and spending plans and

743
00:46:29,173 --> 00:46:33,893
Speaker 2: said that tens of billions of pounds out for us, said, yeah,

744
00:46:33,933 --> 00:46:36,493
Speaker 2: we know, we're just trying to paint a picture of

745
00:46:36,493 --> 00:46:39,213
Speaker 2: what we want to do. You can paint a picture

746
00:46:39,253 --> 00:46:40,733
Speaker 2: all you like. What what I'd like to do is

747
00:46:41,013 --> 00:46:43,213
Speaker 2: build a money tree where money grows on it. It's

748
00:46:43,253 --> 00:46:44,013
Speaker 2: not going to happen.

749
00:46:44,933 --> 00:46:47,413
Speaker 3: Well, well, there are ways of achieving things once, once

750
00:46:47,453 --> 00:46:50,053
Speaker 3: you have the idea that you can that you can

751
00:46:50,213 --> 00:46:52,493
Speaker 3: manipulate and work on, but you have to take the

752
00:46:52,493 --> 00:46:54,213
Speaker 3: people with you, which leads to.

753
00:46:54,253 --> 00:46:56,213
Speaker 2: It's easy to take the people with you when you

754
00:46:56,253 --> 00:46:59,973
Speaker 2: were when you were making stuff up is well, you

755
00:46:59,973 --> 00:47:01,253
Speaker 2: got to take the people with you.

756
00:47:01,813 --> 00:47:05,773
Speaker 3: The question is whether there is the flexibility in the

757
00:47:05,813 --> 00:47:11,973
Speaker 3: population now to adopt the approaches that might be might

758
00:47:12,013 --> 00:47:14,893
Speaker 3: be good. How much of it has to do with

759
00:47:15,053 --> 00:47:22,733
Speaker 3: the socialism that's filtered infiltrated most Western countries over some

760
00:47:22,773 --> 00:47:26,933
Speaker 3: considerable time now, that stops people thinking in the right way,

761
00:47:27,613 --> 00:47:32,173
Speaker 3: That brainwashes people in many ways. The education system that

762
00:47:32,613 --> 00:47:36,093
Speaker 3: simply doesn't do the job that it once did for

763
00:47:36,133 --> 00:47:40,453
Speaker 3: a variety of reasons. On another matter of importance, very

764
00:47:40,493 --> 00:47:46,293
Speaker 3: much so, national health, the NHS. I've had discussions over

765
00:47:46,293 --> 00:47:50,133
Speaker 3: the last few years with other people over it. There's

766
00:47:50,373 --> 00:47:57,213
Speaker 3: an expat Britain, New Zealand who I know doctor who

767
00:47:58,573 --> 00:48:03,133
Speaker 3: just thinks it's a dead loss and he's not alone.

768
00:48:03,613 --> 00:48:07,373
Speaker 3: He also thinks the New Zealand system is pretty much well,

769
00:48:07,413 --> 00:48:10,773
Speaker 3: it's on the gurney. And in our case, there's a

770
00:48:10,773 --> 00:48:18,893
Speaker 3: lot involved with racism, racial challenges in restructuring or improving

771
00:48:19,053 --> 00:48:24,693
Speaker 3: the health system based on racial issues, and I would

772
00:48:24,693 --> 00:48:28,613
Speaker 3: imagine that the same principle exists here. I don't know

773
00:48:28,653 --> 00:48:29,493
Speaker 3: to what extent.

774
00:48:29,253 --> 00:48:34,093
Speaker 2: Though, well the health system here is I mean, it's

775
00:48:34,133 --> 00:48:37,453
Speaker 2: permanently in crisis. It's been in crisis since I moved

776
00:48:37,493 --> 00:48:39,733
Speaker 2: here seven years ago. It's been in crisis for longer

777
00:48:39,773 --> 00:48:43,493
Speaker 2: than that, basically enormous waiting lists. Well, to take it

778
00:48:43,533 --> 00:48:45,893
Speaker 2: back a step, you know, the National Health System national

779
00:48:45,973 --> 00:48:48,293
Speaker 2: Health Service rather, was brought in after the Second World War.

780
00:48:48,373 --> 00:48:53,373
Speaker 2: It's a free healthcare system and it covers basically everything

781
00:48:53,573 --> 00:48:57,453
Speaker 2: apart from here or there. I think some dentist stuff

782
00:48:57,493 --> 00:49:01,493
Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, but it's an entirely free

783
00:49:01,493 --> 00:49:04,093
Speaker 2: healthcare system. It's very close to a religion in the UK.

784
00:49:04,293 --> 00:49:07,533
Speaker 2: As many people have said before, people love it, that

785
00:49:07,613 --> 00:49:11,013
Speaker 2: are absolutely passionate about it. I think there's a bit

786
00:49:11,013 --> 00:49:13,293
Speaker 2: of a misconception that a lot of people sort of

787
00:49:13,293 --> 00:49:16,013
Speaker 2: see the health system here it's either the National Health

788
00:49:16,373 --> 00:49:19,813
Speaker 2: Service or the American system and there's no one between,

789
00:49:20,853 --> 00:49:23,253
Speaker 2: or there's no other way of doing things. You know,

790
00:49:23,653 --> 00:49:26,733
Speaker 2: as an outsider, it's interesting to see it sometimes, but

791
00:49:28,893 --> 00:49:31,773
Speaker 2: there are huge issues with it at the moment. A

792
00:49:31,773 --> 00:49:34,013
Speaker 2: lot of it isn't actually about money, I think most

793
00:49:34,013 --> 00:49:36,893
Speaker 2: people agree. A lot of it's about the way it's structured,

794
00:49:37,413 --> 00:49:41,693
Speaker 2: about bureaucracy, that sort of thing. The current government's trying

795
00:49:41,773 --> 00:49:44,253
Speaker 2: very hard to get waiting lists down, which are kind

796
00:49:44,253 --> 00:49:48,613
Speaker 2: of at you know, record levels under the last government

797
00:49:49,453 --> 00:49:51,933
Speaker 2: for a variety of reasons. That I'm not well informed

798
00:49:52,013 --> 00:49:56,733
Speaker 2: enough to explain, but it's I think the thing is

799
00:49:56,813 --> 00:49:58,573
Speaker 2: the service you get on it in terms of the

800
00:49:58,613 --> 00:50:03,333
Speaker 2: actual quality of care generally speaking, is rather good. It's

801
00:50:03,453 --> 00:50:07,533
Speaker 2: very good. Actually, you've just got to wait for it sometimes. Now,

802
00:50:08,333 --> 00:50:12,493
Speaker 2: would you like it at any to the Greek system.

803
00:50:12,693 --> 00:50:14,773
Speaker 2: I've got more experience, i'd say now with the Greek

804
00:50:14,853 --> 00:50:20,293
Speaker 2: system than I have with the English system. But I

805
00:50:20,293 --> 00:50:24,893
Speaker 2: would say it's hidden shoulders above certain aspects of the

806
00:50:24,933 --> 00:50:25,613
Speaker 2: Greek system.

807
00:50:25,893 --> 00:50:28,893
Speaker 3: Let me just say here that there was an incident

808
00:50:28,973 --> 00:50:34,013
Speaker 3: last week which we didn't discuss actually whether we're going

809
00:50:34,013 --> 00:50:37,133
Speaker 3: to talk about it or not, but it involved one

810
00:50:37,133 --> 00:50:43,093
Speaker 3: of the family and we've got together in Greece on

811
00:50:43,173 --> 00:50:47,213
Speaker 3: an island, which is stunning. We got together to have

812
00:50:47,333 --> 00:50:51,773
Speaker 3: a family gathering about the first.

813
00:50:51,493 --> 00:50:52,893
Speaker 2: Time we've done that for.

814
00:50:55,013 --> 00:50:58,133
Speaker 3: Six seven I can't remember it, to be honest, in

815
00:50:58,533 --> 00:51:02,973
Speaker 3: adult life anyway. The disappointment was that two members of

816
00:51:03,013 --> 00:51:05,253
Speaker 3: the family couldn't be there. They're still in New Zealand.

817
00:51:06,093 --> 00:51:09,573
Speaker 3: It was one of the disappointments. There were five of us,

818
00:51:12,773 --> 00:51:16,533
Speaker 3: three young people all in their early thirties, and a

819
00:51:16,533 --> 00:51:21,773
Speaker 3: couple of oldies. But the incident happened on the second day.

820
00:51:21,773 --> 00:51:26,613
Speaker 3: That the second day after we arrived, where Christian's brother

821
00:51:26,653 --> 00:51:30,613
Speaker 3: in law came off his scooter after a car came

822
00:51:30,693 --> 00:51:32,373
Speaker 3: round a bend on the wrong side of the road

823
00:51:32,613 --> 00:51:38,413
Speaker 3: and he snapped his leg down near the ankle on

824
00:51:38,453 --> 00:51:45,093
Speaker 3: two places. It wasn't just a fracture, wasn't just a fracture,

825
00:51:46,213 --> 00:51:50,173
Speaker 3: and it was very serious and the full story I'm

826
00:51:50,213 --> 00:51:55,773
Speaker 3: determined to tell, but let me just say that you

827
00:51:55,813 --> 00:51:57,813
Speaker 3: can comment if you want, but let me just say

828
00:51:57,853 --> 00:52:01,693
Speaker 3: that this was an example to us of how casually

829
00:52:01,733 --> 00:52:06,333
Speaker 3: we take such things when we go traveling, because there

830
00:52:06,453 --> 00:52:12,333
Speaker 3: was a great deal of uncertainty about the treatment that

831
00:52:13,013 --> 00:52:18,933
Speaker 3: was it was necessary for this, for this accident. The

832
00:52:18,973 --> 00:52:22,733
Speaker 3: good news is that the poor bloke with the with

833
00:52:22,853 --> 00:52:27,613
Speaker 3: the with the crutch now arrived back in London today.

834
00:52:28,613 --> 00:52:29,093
Speaker 2: M hmmm.

835
00:52:30,093 --> 00:52:33,613
Speaker 3: We're probably arriving about now much sooner than expected. But

836
00:52:33,653 --> 00:52:36,253
Speaker 3: there's an interesting story behind it, but there needs to

837
00:52:36,253 --> 00:52:38,333
Speaker 3: be a few things cleared up before we before I

838
00:52:38,373 --> 00:52:41,373
Speaker 3: can can relate it to you in detail. But there's

839
00:52:42,613 --> 00:52:47,773
Speaker 3: there's some detail mm hmm. Speaking of flying, something that

840
00:52:47,813 --> 00:52:50,813
Speaker 3: surprised me a great deal. I really was unaware of

841
00:52:50,933 --> 00:52:56,813
Speaker 3: the airlines set up in this country or in Europe

842
00:52:56,853 --> 00:52:59,493
Speaker 3: if you like. I mean we fly in on Emirates

843
00:52:59,573 --> 00:53:03,093
Speaker 3: or or Cortus or not so much on Courtis. I

844
00:53:03,093 --> 00:53:05,413
Speaker 3: don't think, not so much on Air New Zealand either,

845
00:53:05,453 --> 00:53:09,093
Speaker 3: but Emirates and Air New Zealand here. Now you can't

846
00:53:09,093 --> 00:53:11,373
Speaker 3: get in New Zealand to London anymore. No, I'm not

847
00:53:11,413 --> 00:53:13,573
Speaker 3: sure that. I'm not sure that the straighter still flies

848
00:53:13,653 --> 00:53:17,173
Speaker 3: Quanticent now you can do I did quantus, you can

849
00:53:17,253 --> 00:53:20,293
Speaker 3: do quantus, Okay, I'll take your word for it.

850
00:53:20,493 --> 00:53:20,813
Speaker 2: Anyway.

851
00:53:20,853 --> 00:53:22,973
Speaker 3: What I'm talking about is you go to the airport.

852
00:53:23,013 --> 00:53:27,813
Speaker 3: For instance, we came into Gatwik Gatwick. I by far

853
00:53:27,893 --> 00:53:31,013
Speaker 3: prefer Heathrow, but Gatwick's closer, and it's a couple of

854
00:53:31,133 --> 00:53:33,573
Speaker 3: hundred dollars cheaper on the air here as well.

855
00:53:33,693 --> 00:53:37,573
Speaker 2: Well, it depends generally speaking of Heathrow and Gatwork are

856
00:53:37,573 --> 00:53:39,733
Speaker 2: more expensive than some of the others. But it depends

857
00:53:39,733 --> 00:53:42,373
Speaker 2: on what day you're talking about, or how you hold

858
00:53:42,413 --> 00:53:45,333
Speaker 2: your nose, you know, all of how you hold your.

859
00:53:45,213 --> 00:53:49,173
Speaker 3: Tongue, all of that. I'm unimpressed with with Gatwick, with

860
00:53:49,253 --> 00:53:52,093
Speaker 3: the with the you go to Luton. I'm not going

861
00:53:52,093 --> 00:53:56,053
Speaker 3: to Luton, I am you are as soon as we've finished.

862
00:53:57,493 --> 00:54:00,533
Speaker 3: The point that I'm making is that, well take the take.

863
00:54:00,573 --> 00:54:03,733
Speaker 3: The flying out of the island.

864
00:54:03,813 --> 00:54:06,453
Speaker 2: Is a Canthos. Yeah.

865
00:54:06,733 --> 00:54:10,173
Speaker 3: Lined up on the tarmac were about half a dozen

866
00:54:10,333 --> 00:54:14,453
Speaker 3: different airlines with smaller planes. Of course, we were in

867
00:54:14,733 --> 00:54:18,693
Speaker 3: a seven three seven, eight hundred and it was choc

868
00:54:18,733 --> 00:54:23,813
Speaker 3: a block, as were all the planes. But it was Sunday.

869
00:54:24,573 --> 00:54:27,293
Speaker 3: People were coming home, leaving and going home I suppose

870
00:54:27,333 --> 00:54:30,733
Speaker 3: after school holidays or whatever was going on. The airport

871
00:54:30,853 --> 00:54:34,173
Speaker 3: was packed. The planes were packed, but all these different

872
00:54:34,253 --> 00:54:37,773
Speaker 3: airlines that you've never heard of. We flew twoy which

873
00:54:37,853 --> 00:54:39,893
Speaker 3: was coincidental, and it wasn't bad.

874
00:54:40,613 --> 00:54:43,773
Speaker 2: It was good. I just wonder how this came about.

875
00:54:44,453 --> 00:54:49,893
Speaker 2: All the airlines. Yeah, good question, good question. Well, you know,

876
00:54:50,093 --> 00:54:53,293
Speaker 2: cheap airlines, low cost airlines have been around for quite

877
00:54:53,333 --> 00:54:56,093
Speaker 2: a while now in Europe, but there were about two

878
00:54:56,173 --> 00:55:02,293
Speaker 2: of them originally, Yeah, well originally then too. Well, I'll

879
00:55:02,293 --> 00:55:04,733
Speaker 2: tell you, well, I think they've been around for a

880
00:55:04,773 --> 00:55:06,933
Speaker 2: few decades. You know, most people will have heard of

881
00:55:06,933 --> 00:55:11,013
Speaker 2: the likes of Ryanair, easy Jet. There's now wiz Air,

882
00:55:11,053 --> 00:55:15,693
Speaker 2: which is Hungarian. We flew whizz there over there, we did. Yeah, yeah,

883
00:55:15,693 --> 00:55:19,653
Speaker 2: you did. Two years more of a package holiday airline,

884
00:55:20,373 --> 00:55:24,333
Speaker 2: as is Jet two. But there's a few Europeans one

885
00:55:24,653 --> 00:55:28,733
Speaker 2: European ones as well, but there's plenty of them now absolutely.

886
00:55:28,893 --> 00:55:31,613
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, low cost airlines have revolutionized travel

887
00:55:31,693 --> 00:55:34,133
Speaker 2: in the UK over the past few decades. They've made

888
00:55:34,133 --> 00:55:39,613
Speaker 2: it accessible to ordinary people really to be able to

889
00:55:39,613 --> 00:55:43,013
Speaker 2: go and have a holiday in Spain or Greece or wherever.

890
00:55:43,533 --> 00:55:45,613
Speaker 2: I mean, that's nothing new, It's been going on for yeah,

891
00:55:45,653 --> 00:55:49,813
Speaker 2: a few decades, but it is. I think it's fantastic.

892
00:55:49,933 --> 00:55:52,933
Speaker 2: It means, it means that people like me who wouldn't

893
00:55:52,973 --> 00:55:55,013
Speaker 2: otherwise be able to do much travel because if you

894
00:55:55,053 --> 00:55:57,533
Speaker 2: were booking on British airways, for example, you just wouldn't

895
00:55:57,533 --> 00:55:59,773
Speaker 2: be able to afford it. But you know, you can

896
00:55:59,853 --> 00:56:03,853
Speaker 2: get return flights to Dublin for fifty pounds, or depending

897
00:56:03,853 --> 00:56:06,693
Speaker 2: on when you book, you can get return flights anywhere

898
00:56:06,733 --> 00:56:10,133
Speaker 2: for under one hundred pounds. And that's one of the

899
00:56:10,133 --> 00:56:12,533
Speaker 2: great things for New Zealanders who live over here, who

900
00:56:12,613 --> 00:56:16,413
Speaker 2: make the most of it, like you. The ironic thing

901
00:56:16,533 --> 00:56:21,013
Speaker 2: is having flown on all of these now, Ryanair, easy

902
00:56:21,093 --> 00:56:23,933
Speaker 2: Jet was there. Do you want to know the worst

903
00:56:23,933 --> 00:56:27,213
Speaker 2: airline I've still flown on Jetstar.

904
00:56:28,533 --> 00:56:30,853
Speaker 3: Well didn't it didn't it win the worst airline of

905
00:56:30,853 --> 00:56:33,373
Speaker 3: the world or something? Did it award recently? Well, there

906
00:56:33,413 --> 00:56:36,093
Speaker 3: you go, Jetstar. I'm sure I got told that only

907
00:56:36,093 --> 00:56:37,253
Speaker 3: a few days ago, and.

908
00:56:37,213 --> 00:56:39,533
Speaker 2: I've had that, I've had that backed up by other people.

909
00:56:40,693 --> 00:56:44,813
Speaker 3: Listen, there's something I forgot to raise at the appropriate time.

910
00:56:45,813 --> 00:56:48,053
Speaker 3: But we might wind up with this. Going back to

911
00:56:48,093 --> 00:56:51,373
Speaker 3: crime on streets, there's one thing that I think you

912
00:56:51,533 --> 00:56:55,013
Speaker 3: touched on it that the police don't have the resources

913
00:56:55,053 --> 00:56:56,973
Speaker 3: or something to do and deal with everything. Now, now,

914
00:56:57,133 --> 00:57:01,493
Speaker 3: let me just describe two situations that happened this three

915
00:57:01,573 --> 00:57:08,413
Speaker 3: situations that happened in the last week. The there's a

916
00:57:08,493 --> 00:57:13,013
Speaker 3: general store downtown. It's a see my Market co op,

917
00:57:13,173 --> 00:57:15,373
Speaker 3: the co op, the co op down on the corner

918
00:57:16,253 --> 00:57:18,613
Speaker 3: on this what's the name of the main trail Streatham.

919
00:57:18,653 --> 00:57:23,173
Speaker 3: Hell Okay, and been in there a couple of times,

920
00:57:23,253 --> 00:57:28,093
Speaker 3: even signed up to membership. But missus producer and I

921
00:57:28,133 --> 00:57:30,773
Speaker 3: were walking in there the other day and the door

922
00:57:30,813 --> 00:57:36,253
Speaker 3: slid open, and this young guy ran out, had a

923
00:57:36,253 --> 00:57:39,773
Speaker 3: backpack on, almost like he was on his way home

924
00:57:39,813 --> 00:57:45,933
Speaker 3: from school. And behind him, powering down the aisle was

925
00:57:46,053 --> 00:57:49,773
Speaker 3: one of the employees of the co op. And boy,

926
00:57:49,813 --> 00:57:52,533
Speaker 3: when I say he was flying, he was. He was pounding.

927
00:57:52,973 --> 00:57:55,573
Speaker 3: He got the kid. When I say kid, he was

928
00:57:56,053 --> 00:58:01,053
Speaker 3: fifteen sixteen. He got the kid on the footpath. But

929
00:58:01,133 --> 00:58:04,733
Speaker 3: the kid got out of his grasp and took off

930
00:58:04,733 --> 00:58:07,653
Speaker 3: across the road, and the guy from the co op

931
00:58:08,133 --> 00:58:13,293
Speaker 3: just stood there and watched him. The kid ran away

932
00:58:13,973 --> 00:58:17,173
Speaker 3: up the hill on the side street opposite, laughing his

933
00:58:17,293 --> 00:58:23,213
Speaker 3: head off over his shoulder. That's one in the main

934
00:58:23,333 --> 00:58:26,973
Speaker 3: drag up here there are where it's actually a miracle

935
00:58:27,013 --> 00:58:30,293
Speaker 3: that we haven't heard sirens during this. Oh yeah, yeah,

936
00:58:31,413 --> 00:58:34,333
Speaker 3: that's anywhere in London. Two days ago, Karen and I

937
00:58:34,413 --> 00:58:36,693
Speaker 3: were walking up the walking up the street to go

938
00:58:36,733 --> 00:58:39,333
Speaker 3: to the station, and we were out of town to

939
00:58:39,373 --> 00:58:45,173
Speaker 3: spend some money, and two police cars came screaming through it.

940
00:58:45,453 --> 00:58:48,213
Speaker 3: And when I say screaming, I mean they were almost stairborn,

941
00:58:48,333 --> 00:58:52,813
Speaker 3: one after the other, very close. Within twenty seconds, there

942
00:58:52,813 --> 00:58:55,733
Speaker 3: were two more. In the end, there were eight police

943
00:58:55,813 --> 00:59:01,933
Speaker 3: vehicles that were headed in the same direction, and I

944
00:59:02,013 --> 00:59:04,333
Speaker 3: ran Christian just to tell him. He said it happens

945
00:59:04,333 --> 00:59:06,493
Speaker 3: all the time, but he'd never heard of eight before.

946
00:59:07,013 --> 00:59:10,813
Speaker 3: But it was just unreal. There is always something going on.

947
00:59:11,453 --> 00:59:13,093
Speaker 2: Well there was the other time as well, when we

948
00:59:13,093 --> 00:59:16,893
Speaker 2: were going to the bus and we got We didn't

949
00:59:16,893 --> 00:59:23,173
Speaker 2: get involved, but we were witness to a very vocal

950
00:59:23,333 --> 00:59:27,693
Speaker 2: argument between a few people who were throwing things and

951
00:59:28,253 --> 00:59:31,533
Speaker 2: getting up in each other's faces. I would say, and

952
00:59:31,573 --> 00:59:33,733
Speaker 2: I've said this to you before, I think you're a

953
00:59:33,733 --> 00:59:37,973
Speaker 2: magnet for these things. In seven years, I don't think

954
00:59:38,013 --> 00:59:43,213
Speaker 2: I've personally witnessed someone nicking something from a supermarket. I've

955
00:59:43,773 --> 00:59:47,293
Speaker 2: very rarely come across people arguing like that in the street.

956
00:59:47,373 --> 00:59:51,693
Speaker 2: Or it does happen, though, and I've never seen eight

957
00:59:51,733 --> 00:59:55,773
Speaker 2: police cars zooming down, but not that many, all inside

958
00:59:55,773 --> 00:59:58,173
Speaker 2: of two minutes. It's all gone very well for me

959
00:59:58,213 --> 00:59:59,613
Speaker 2: to try and persuade you. I live in a nice

960
00:59:59,653 --> 01:00:02,493
Speaker 2: part of town. It's all happened within one hundred meters

961
01:00:02,533 --> 01:00:03,493
Speaker 2: of my front door.

962
01:00:03,773 --> 01:00:06,053
Speaker 3: By the way, I reckon, I worked out why the

963
01:00:06,653 --> 01:00:09,813
Speaker 3: guy from the co op didn't this kid because he'd

964
01:00:09,853 --> 01:00:10,453
Speaker 3: get charged.

965
01:00:11,373 --> 01:00:15,293
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I don't think that's necessarily true.

966
01:00:15,453 --> 01:00:20,413
Speaker 2: I think I don't know, but my guess would be

967
01:00:21,613 --> 01:00:26,213
Speaker 2: a the risk of physical violence to him would be

968
01:00:26,253 --> 01:00:28,373
Speaker 2: quite high, particularly if he didn't get him at the

969
01:00:28,453 --> 01:00:32,493
Speaker 2: right time. There are huge knife issues in London, so

970
01:00:32,573 --> 01:00:34,733
Speaker 2: you don't really know if someone's carrying a knife, and

971
01:00:34,773 --> 01:00:40,333
Speaker 2: in particular knife issues are amongst young men, so there's

972
01:00:40,333 --> 01:00:43,453
Speaker 2: a good chance that that bloke could have been having so.

973
01:00:43,813 --> 01:00:47,733
Speaker 3: Down at Brixton. We're on the bus coming back from

974
01:00:47,973 --> 01:00:51,893
Speaker 3: Brixton station and we pulled up at the lights still

975
01:00:51,933 --> 01:00:56,853
Speaker 3: in Brixton proper, and there were four guys, young guys

976
01:00:57,413 --> 01:01:00,653
Speaker 3: about the same age as the guy the thief I

977
01:01:00,733 --> 01:01:03,973
Speaker 3: just mentioned, and they were all dressed in dark clothes.

978
01:01:04,133 --> 01:01:08,933
Speaker 3: They were all of a similar extraction. Of them had

979
01:01:08,973 --> 01:01:14,933
Speaker 3: a paliclava yep, and he started pulling phones out of

980
01:01:14,933 --> 01:01:17,373
Speaker 3: his pocket. They were stopped there and they sort of

981
01:01:17,373 --> 01:01:21,453
Speaker 3: gathered around in a circle on their bikes and he

982
01:01:21,493 --> 01:01:24,893
Speaker 3: pulled out of his pockets. He pulled too phones at

983
01:01:24,933 --> 01:01:29,373
Speaker 3: each pocket and they were talking about them. Another guy

984
01:01:29,413 --> 01:01:32,733
Speaker 3: came along there and joined them, but they were patently

985
01:01:33,053 --> 01:01:36,853
Speaker 3: of the I think it was Carollon who said, I

986
01:01:36,853 --> 01:01:40,533
Speaker 3: don't like to think ill of people, but I think

987
01:01:40,573 --> 01:01:44,213
Speaker 3: I'm right in saying that they were of the criminal

988
01:01:44,293 --> 01:01:49,133
Speaker 3: type at that age, because you explain what happens, well.

989
01:01:49,013 --> 01:01:50,693
Speaker 2: There's a huge issue with it. I mean, I don't know.

990
01:01:50,733 --> 01:01:52,653
Speaker 2: I wasn't there, but there's a huge issue generally with

991
01:01:52,733 --> 01:01:57,213
Speaker 2: phone snatching in London, people coming by on push bikes

992
01:01:57,333 --> 01:02:01,653
Speaker 2: or scooters, grabbing phones out of people's hands while they're

993
01:02:02,413 --> 01:02:04,173
Speaker 2: on the on the pavement. And I would say, if

994
01:02:04,173 --> 01:02:07,133
Speaker 2: you're ever going to go to London, do not stand

995
01:02:07,533 --> 01:02:10,133
Speaker 2: next to the on the curb basically next to the

996
01:02:10,213 --> 01:02:12,573
Speaker 2: road with your phone out, because you'll become a target.

997
01:02:12,613 --> 01:02:15,013
Speaker 2: And I it happens all over the place, particularly in

998
01:02:15,213 --> 01:02:19,453
Speaker 2: touristy areas, because obviously most people don't know, but it's

999
01:02:19,453 --> 01:02:22,093
Speaker 2: a massive issue. In fact, there's a there's a computer

1000
01:02:22,253 --> 01:02:27,893
Speaker 2: shop chain called Curries here they think think no Leaming

1001
01:02:28,053 --> 01:02:30,653
Speaker 2: or dick Smith, not that dick Smith's around anymore, but

1002
01:02:31,173 --> 01:02:33,213
Speaker 2: similar sort of shop. And they've just started a very

1003
01:02:33,213 --> 01:02:39,173
Speaker 2: clever ad campaign where they put a ribbon of sticking,

1004
01:02:39,853 --> 01:02:42,973
Speaker 2: you know, a ribbon of kind of poster on the

1005
01:02:43,133 --> 01:02:46,773
Speaker 2: on the footpath next to the curb in touristy places

1006
01:02:46,813 --> 01:02:50,373
Speaker 2: saying don't stand with your phone out Curries. You know,

1007
01:02:50,453 --> 01:02:54,693
Speaker 2: it's quite clever but also really interesting that a big

1008
01:02:54,693 --> 01:02:57,173
Speaker 2: company like that has decided that they're going to warn

1009
01:02:57,253 --> 01:02:59,613
Speaker 2: people to not have their phones out and have them

1010
01:02:59,613 --> 01:03:01,693
Speaker 2: snatched because it's a it's a big issue. And again

1011
01:03:01,733 --> 01:03:03,493
Speaker 2: it's the same sort of thing. A it's quite hard

1012
01:03:03,533 --> 01:03:05,173
Speaker 2: to track down these people who do this because a

1013
01:03:05,173 --> 01:03:08,133
Speaker 2: lot of them are wearing masks, but also be the

1014
01:03:08,973 --> 01:03:11,093
Speaker 2: you know, it's just it just can't it's not their

1015
01:03:11,133 --> 01:03:15,653
Speaker 2: priority because they're busy with other things on the crime.

1016
01:03:15,773 --> 01:03:20,093
Speaker 2: I think there's a really interesting question to be asked

1017
01:03:20,213 --> 01:03:25,093
Speaker 2: over how much of what's going on, not just in

1018
01:03:25,173 --> 01:03:28,013
Speaker 2: terms of crime, but the feeling around it is. You know,

1019
01:03:28,413 --> 01:03:30,933
Speaker 2: London's a big city. Like most big cities, there's a

1020
01:03:30,933 --> 01:03:34,333
Speaker 2: lot of crime. There's a question of you know, twas ever,

1021
01:03:34,413 --> 01:03:37,493
Speaker 2: thus with this sort of thing, you can't tell me

1022
01:03:37,573 --> 01:03:40,773
Speaker 2: that New Zealander is moving to London. In the nineteen eighties,

1023
01:03:40,813 --> 01:03:44,453
Speaker 2: for example, weren't concerned about crime on the streets as

1024
01:03:44,453 --> 01:03:47,613
Speaker 2: well here more than New Zealand for example. So if

1025
01:03:47,653 --> 01:03:49,893
Speaker 2: you know, if you're in New Zealand thinking about moving

1026
01:03:49,973 --> 01:03:51,773
Speaker 2: to the UK or visiting, I'd say go for it,

1027
01:03:52,493 --> 01:03:56,173
Speaker 2: wouldn't hesitate for this sort of thing. But I also

1028
01:03:56,173 --> 01:03:59,893
Speaker 2: think it's an interesting there's an interesting question about how

1029
01:03:59,973 --> 01:04:03,213
Speaker 2: much of the concern around this is from other things too.

1030
01:04:03,453 --> 01:04:07,173
Speaker 2: It's from the economic cost of living issues that people

1031
01:04:07,173 --> 01:04:10,173
Speaker 2: in the UK are facing from, you know, the strikes

1032
01:04:10,173 --> 01:04:11,573
Speaker 2: and that sort of thing that have been going on

1033
01:04:11,613 --> 01:04:14,373
Speaker 2: over the past few years. From this concept of broken

1034
01:04:14,453 --> 01:04:19,933
Speaker 2: Britain that gets bandied around a lot where things don't work,

1035
01:04:19,973 --> 01:04:24,173
Speaker 2: Trains don't work, flights are canceled, the NHS is in trouble,

1036
01:04:24,693 --> 01:04:27,493
Speaker 2: you know, all these sorts of things. I don't know.

1037
01:04:27,933 --> 01:04:31,333
Speaker 2: There's there's an absolute sense here that things are not great.

1038
01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:35,813
Speaker 2: But you wonder how much one compounds the other and

1039
01:04:35,853 --> 01:04:38,973
Speaker 2: how much it's in the mind compared to another, you know,

1040
01:04:39,373 --> 01:04:42,373
Speaker 2: how much it's it's a reality. I think it's an

1041
01:04:42,373 --> 01:04:43,533
Speaker 2: interesting thing to think about.

1042
01:04:45,973 --> 01:04:48,133
Speaker 3: There is something I've left out that I that I

1043
01:04:48,133 --> 01:04:52,293
Speaker 3: should have raised earlier, but we've we have ranged far

1044
01:04:52,333 --> 01:04:55,613
Speaker 3: and wide in this conversation and they're the sorts of

1045
01:04:55,853 --> 01:04:59,893
Speaker 3: conversations I like. But the Prime Minister, the current one,

1046
01:04:59,933 --> 01:05:02,253
Speaker 3: I don't like the guy at all. Tell me why

1047
01:05:02,333 --> 01:05:03,813
Speaker 3: I should.

1048
01:05:05,533 --> 01:05:10,853
Speaker 2: It's a good question. Is he like thinkable? Does likability matter?

1049
01:05:11,773 --> 01:05:13,133
Speaker 2: I know way you don't like him, but that's a

1050
01:05:13,173 --> 01:05:18,453
Speaker 2: different story. It's probably not the most common opinion. But

1051
01:05:18,533 --> 01:05:23,573
Speaker 2: I think he's doing okay. He's made mistakes, Jesus doing

1052
01:05:23,653 --> 01:05:27,933
Speaker 2: okay acceptable, You should have seen them lot before. That's

1053
01:05:27,973 --> 01:05:30,973
Speaker 2: part of the thing, that's part of the reason to

1054
01:05:31,053 --> 01:05:36,813
Speaker 2: take it back. It's difficult to un to overestimate how

1055
01:05:36,893 --> 01:05:40,253
Speaker 2: much the Conservative government that had been in power since

1056
01:05:40,293 --> 01:05:44,493
Speaker 2: twenty ten, through various iterations with about five prime ministers

1057
01:05:44,573 --> 01:05:49,213
Speaker 2: or something in that time, was hated a year ago

1058
01:05:49,213 --> 01:05:52,693
Speaker 2: when the election happened, in large part because of Liz

1059
01:05:52,733 --> 01:05:57,013
Speaker 2: Trust and her disastrous forty four day or something time

1060
01:05:57,053 --> 01:06:01,333
Speaker 2: in office, perhaps more so because of Boris Johnson and

1061
01:06:01,373 --> 01:06:05,533
Speaker 2: his partying during lockdown and Downing Street and well his

1062
01:06:05,613 --> 01:06:09,893
Speaker 2: AIDS partying, I should say, many other reasons, and for

1063
01:06:09,933 --> 01:06:11,853
Speaker 2: the fact that they were by the time they left office,

1064
01:06:11,893 --> 01:06:14,093
Speaker 2: they were tired and they just didn't really have any

1065
01:06:14,133 --> 01:06:18,333
Speaker 2: ideas or ways of solving things, and people were just

1066
01:06:18,373 --> 01:06:23,133
Speaker 2: sick of scandal laughter scandal. Anyway, it's difficult to overestimate

1067
01:06:23,173 --> 01:06:26,173
Speaker 2: how angry they were at the Conservatives and still are.

1068
01:06:27,173 --> 01:06:30,933
Speaker 2: Kir Istama has what they've done well and they ran

1069
01:06:31,093 --> 01:06:33,093
Speaker 2: a good election, which was they just ran on the

1070
01:06:33,133 --> 01:06:36,213
Speaker 2: one principle of change that was their slogan, change and

1071
01:06:36,253 --> 01:06:40,173
Speaker 2: it reflected very well what the UK wanted. People wanted change,

1072
01:06:41,173 --> 01:06:43,133
Speaker 2: and they wanted a government that was a bit more

1073
01:06:43,173 --> 01:06:46,133
Speaker 2: grown up, a bit more serious. Have they got it?

1074
01:06:46,293 --> 01:06:49,533
Speaker 2: I think so, in the sense of they're actually politicians.

1075
01:06:49,533 --> 01:06:54,253
Speaker 2: There are serious characters. I think a lot of the

1076
01:06:54,253 --> 01:06:56,733
Speaker 2: criticism of Starma so far has been on how he's

1077
01:06:56,773 --> 01:06:59,973
Speaker 2: done his politics rather than whether or not they've actually

1078
01:07:01,173 --> 01:07:04,573
Speaker 2: rather than necessarily all policy issues. There's been a lot

1079
01:07:04,573 --> 01:07:07,013
Speaker 2: of criticism of oh, we didn't handle that very well,

1080
01:07:07,133 --> 01:07:09,733
Speaker 2: or oh they you turned on things and that sort

1081
01:07:09,773 --> 01:07:12,453
Speaker 2: of thing, and a lot of that's valid. But I

1082
01:07:12,453 --> 01:07:17,493
Speaker 2: also think he's dealing with, you know, a catastrophic inheritance

1083
01:07:17,493 --> 01:07:19,853
Speaker 2: from the last government for number of a number of

1084
01:07:19,853 --> 01:07:20,413
Speaker 2: the reasons.

1085
01:07:20,613 --> 01:07:23,293
Speaker 3: How long has he been in office now? A year now, Well,

1086
01:07:23,333 --> 01:07:24,933
Speaker 3: a year is quite long enough.

1087
01:07:25,773 --> 01:07:29,933
Speaker 2: But he's also yeah, no, I think so. I think so.

1088
01:07:30,613 --> 01:07:36,413
Speaker 2: But he's also dealing with, you know, enormous international difficulties

1089
01:07:36,453 --> 01:07:40,653
Speaker 2: from Ukraine to the tariffs brought in by Trump and

1090
01:07:40,693 --> 01:07:43,173
Speaker 2: the fallout from all of that, and the difficulties that's

1091
01:07:43,453 --> 01:07:49,533
Speaker 2: given the UK economically along with everybody else. But I

1092
01:07:49,613 --> 01:07:52,653
Speaker 2: think I think there's a five year term here in

1093
01:07:52,693 --> 01:07:55,173
Speaker 2: the UK, which is a long time. It's too long,

1094
01:07:55,373 --> 01:07:59,053
Speaker 2: and well now it is. I think it's I think

1095
01:07:59,093 --> 01:08:00,933
Speaker 2: perhaps it's too long, but it's I think it's better

1096
01:08:00,973 --> 01:08:04,453
Speaker 2: than three years. But he's got time, he's got time

1097
01:08:04,493 --> 01:08:06,973
Speaker 2: to play with. I suppose he's far from perfect, but

1098
01:08:07,013 --> 01:08:08,293
Speaker 2: I think he's a hell of a lot better than

1099
01:08:08,333 --> 01:08:09,413
Speaker 2: who we had a year troubles.

1100
01:08:09,573 --> 01:08:12,413
Speaker 3: A bad government has time for abuse. Yes, that's not

1101
01:08:12,533 --> 01:08:15,653
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say play with, I'd say abuse. The thing

1102
01:08:15,693 --> 01:08:20,053
Speaker 3: with them is they've got a few key fundamentals they

1103
01:08:20,093 --> 01:08:22,653
Speaker 3: need to solve. They need to come up with a

1104
01:08:22,653 --> 01:08:27,133
Speaker 3: way of and effectively prove that they've started improving on

1105
01:08:27,573 --> 01:08:30,213
Speaker 3: the asylum seeker problem. I mean, at the end of

1106
01:08:30,253 --> 01:08:32,333
Speaker 3: the day, what they're aiming to do is make people

1107
01:08:32,373 --> 01:08:34,973
Speaker 3: feel like they're better off in the pocket. That's something

1108
01:08:35,013 --> 01:08:39,133
Speaker 3: they really need to do. And they need to kind

1109
01:08:39,173 --> 01:08:42,813
Speaker 3: of break this image of broken Britain, which they have

1110
01:08:42,893 --> 01:08:44,653
Speaker 3: started to do. You know, a lot of the most

1111
01:08:44,653 --> 01:08:47,453
Speaker 3: of the strikes have now stopped, a lot of things

1112
01:08:47,493 --> 01:08:50,293
Speaker 3: are now working in better ways than they were. I

1113
01:08:50,293 --> 01:08:54,133
Speaker 3: think generally speaking, things feel a bit calmer internally than

1114
01:08:54,173 --> 01:08:57,693
Speaker 3: they did two years ago. But they've got a lot

1115
01:08:57,693 --> 01:08:59,293
Speaker 3: of work to do, and I think there's a really

1116
01:08:59,333 --> 01:09:01,013
Speaker 3: good question to be asked for whether they're going to

1117
01:09:01,013 --> 01:09:05,013
Speaker 3: be able to actually do it or not, because so

1118
01:09:05,133 --> 01:09:07,853
Speaker 3: far they perhaps haven't. But I don't think that that

1119
01:09:08,053 --> 01:09:11,293
Speaker 3: is that people are painting the mayors. Do you think

1120
01:09:11,293 --> 01:09:15,893
Speaker 3: time will tell? Time will tell. After her last budget,

1121
01:09:15,933 --> 01:09:18,773
Speaker 3: the Chancellor promised that there would be no further tax

1122
01:09:18,853 --> 01:09:21,973
Speaker 3: rises this parliament, following the forty billion dollar increase she

1123
01:09:22,053 --> 01:09:25,653
Speaker 3: pushed through them. When called upon the justifier U turn

1124
01:09:25,733 --> 01:09:30,413
Speaker 3: Reeves might blame the global uncertainty generated by Donald Trump's

1125
01:09:30,453 --> 01:09:35,653
Speaker 3: tariffs are but a more obvious culprit is the disastrous

1126
01:09:35,693 --> 01:09:39,333
Speaker 3: series of choices she made last October and her government's

1127
01:09:39,373 --> 01:09:43,413
Speaker 3: impotence in the face of its backbenches unwilling to cut spending.

1128
01:09:44,013 --> 01:09:46,693
Speaker 3: In recent weeks, it's been revealed that one hundred and

1129
01:09:46,733 --> 01:09:49,773
Speaker 3: sixty four thousand jobs were lost during Labour's first year

1130
01:09:49,813 --> 01:09:53,133
Speaker 3: in office, a fall in employment traceable back to the

1131
01:09:53,213 --> 01:09:58,933
Speaker 3: Chancellor's increase in employer's National insurance borrowing figures for June

1132
01:09:58,973 --> 01:10:01,533
Speaker 3: were at the second highest on record. The official for

1133
01:10:01,853 --> 01:10:05,493
Speaker 3: national the Office for National Statistics, pinned this on the

1134
01:10:05,533 --> 01:10:10,373
Speaker 3: increasing cost of public services and the nametional debt. Reeves

1135
01:10:10,453 --> 01:10:14,293
Speaker 3: is stuck in a doom loop. Her tax rises stifled growth,

1136
01:10:14,773 --> 01:10:18,333
Speaker 3: Her MPs refused to cut public spending. Taxes must rise.

1137
01:10:18,733 --> 01:10:21,213
Speaker 3: The tax burden is already at a post war high.

1138
01:10:21,453 --> 01:10:24,093
Speaker 3: The national debt is approaching one hundred percent of GDP.

1139
01:10:24,533 --> 01:10:28,613
Speaker 3: Spending on servicing debt interest is now greater than on defense.

1140
01:10:29,133 --> 01:10:32,893
Speaker 2: And that'll do. How do you feel, well? I think,

1141
01:10:33,213 --> 01:10:36,373
Speaker 2: first of all, most of those issues were the same

1142
01:10:36,373 --> 01:10:40,453
Speaker 2: with the last government. Some of them have changed, but

1143
01:10:40,533 --> 01:10:42,773
Speaker 2: generally speaking, they're not things that have been brought in

1144
01:10:42,813 --> 01:10:45,213
Speaker 2: by this new government that was already there. I think

1145
01:10:45,253 --> 01:10:47,453
Speaker 2: there's a lot of there's good arguments to be made

1146
01:10:47,453 --> 01:10:52,053
Speaker 2: that some of the spending and tax changes they brought

1147
01:10:52,053 --> 01:10:54,733
Speaker 2: in last year were perhaps wrong, But it's also easy

1148
01:10:54,773 --> 01:10:57,933
Speaker 2: to forget how much of a between a rock and

1149
01:10:57,973 --> 01:11:02,453
Speaker 2: a hard place the Chancellor was because there was a

1150
01:11:02,733 --> 01:11:06,413
Speaker 2: desperate need for more spending on public services, desperate. This

1151
01:11:06,533 --> 01:11:08,333
Speaker 2: was part of the whole thing about broken Britain. Things

1152
01:11:08,533 --> 01:11:13,013
Speaker 2: just weren't working. But at the same time, where do

1153
01:11:13,053 --> 01:11:15,253
Speaker 2: you get money for spending more on public services? Well

1154
01:11:15,373 --> 01:11:17,173
Speaker 2: you might have to increase tax as a that effects

1155
01:11:17,213 --> 01:11:20,813
Speaker 2: business confidence, which it did. So there's a real issue

1156
01:11:20,853 --> 01:11:23,293
Speaker 2: there and I don't envy her job or anyone who

1157
01:11:23,293 --> 01:11:25,133
Speaker 2: has that job. And I think the thing there is

1158
01:11:25,133 --> 01:11:27,173
Speaker 2: is that no one has come up with a particularly

1159
01:11:27,173 --> 01:11:30,573
Speaker 2: good solution for these issues as well. These are kind

1160
01:11:30,573 --> 01:11:35,933
Speaker 2: of fundamental structural issues. I think the idea of a

1161
01:11:35,973 --> 01:11:39,453
Speaker 2: doom loop is actually a very good one. There's a

1162
01:11:39,493 --> 01:11:43,253
Speaker 2: thing in the UK that's really interesting. I can't claim

1163
01:11:43,293 --> 01:11:45,453
Speaker 2: I came up with this idea myself. I've I read

1164
01:11:45,453 --> 01:11:49,773
Speaker 2: it somewhere. The UK wants and the population want and

1165
01:11:49,893 --> 01:11:54,533
Speaker 2: expect sort of Scandinavian level public services, healthcare, everything else,

1166
01:11:55,493 --> 01:12:00,413
Speaker 2: but they want to pay American taxes. You can't have both, obviously,

1167
01:12:00,893 --> 01:12:03,013
Speaker 2: but it means that people are always upset about what's

1168
01:12:03,053 --> 01:12:07,093
Speaker 2: going on. And I think that in many ways, a

1169
01:12:07,133 --> 01:12:09,813
Speaker 2: lot of the complaints from from you might say on

1170
01:12:10,053 --> 01:12:11,893
Speaker 2: the right, they say you should cut spending. A lot

1171
01:12:11,893 --> 01:12:14,413
Speaker 2: of the complaint on the left is you should increase taxes.

1172
01:12:14,453 --> 01:12:16,493
Speaker 2: And you need to be honest with people saying we

1173
01:12:16,533 --> 01:12:18,733
Speaker 2: can't do the things you want us to do. We

1174
01:12:18,773 --> 01:12:22,413
Speaker 2: can't keep the NHS in good stead if you don't

1175
01:12:22,453 --> 01:12:25,853
Speaker 2: want to pay any more tax I'm not saying one

1176
01:12:25,973 --> 01:12:29,733
Speaker 2: or the other is right, but again they remain stuck

1177
01:12:29,733 --> 01:12:34,333
Speaker 2: between a rock and a hard place. Well, shall we

1178
01:12:34,413 --> 01:12:38,253
Speaker 2: agree on one thing to conclude how to make a change.

1179
01:12:39,493 --> 01:12:40,733
Speaker 2: That's not true.

1180
01:12:41,133 --> 01:12:46,373
Speaker 3: That's there is a vacuum in the depths of intellect

1181
01:12:46,893 --> 01:12:51,333
Speaker 3: among countries' leaders, not just here, not just New Zealand,

1182
01:12:51,453 --> 01:12:56,373
Speaker 3: but in most of western countries, a lack of intellectual

1183
01:12:56,453 --> 01:13:00,893
Speaker 3: depth that is damaging a lot of lives.

1184
01:13:02,093 --> 01:13:07,053
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's probably fair. I think that there's

1185
01:13:07,093 --> 01:13:09,053
Speaker 2: a few things that could be said about I think that,

1186
01:13:11,013 --> 01:13:13,773
Speaker 2: as I know is the case arguably in New Zealand,

1187
01:13:15,173 --> 01:13:18,933
Speaker 2: the sort of people that are going into politics may

1188
01:13:19,013 --> 01:13:21,693
Speaker 2: not necessarily always be the best and brightest. And I

1189
01:13:21,733 --> 01:13:23,813
Speaker 2: actually think that is in part because a lot of

1190
01:13:23,813 --> 01:13:25,973
Speaker 2: people look at the idea of being a politician now

1191
01:13:25,973 --> 01:13:27,893
Speaker 2: and go, why the hell would I want to do that?

1192
01:13:28,173 --> 01:13:32,213
Speaker 2: You got that right, But then also there is a

1193
01:13:32,373 --> 01:13:35,053
Speaker 2: massive amount of short termism, and I'll bring it back

1194
01:13:35,093 --> 01:13:39,133
Speaker 2: to some of those stats of or examples of lack

1195
01:13:39,173 --> 01:13:43,653
Speaker 2: of investment in the UK, the lack of reservoirs that

1196
01:13:43,813 --> 01:13:48,013
Speaker 2: reflect that that you know, to be a successful politician,

1197
01:13:48,053 --> 01:13:53,173
Speaker 2: you need to show short term success, not long term success.

1198
01:13:54,013 --> 01:13:56,933
Speaker 2: And that's a real issue because we are now seeing

1199
01:13:56,933 --> 01:13:59,373
Speaker 2: the results of that because there hasn't been any long

1200
01:13:59,453 --> 01:14:03,253
Speaker 2: term or not enough long term planning, not on that date.

1201
01:14:03,853 --> 01:14:09,133
Speaker 3: It's been great talking to you, I hope, well, thank

1202
01:14:09,133 --> 01:14:13,213
Speaker 3: you for having me back, and we will again Latent Smith,

1203
01:14:14,773 --> 01:14:18,773
Speaker 3: No one more thing. After we finish the interview, Christian

1204
01:14:18,853 --> 01:14:22,573
Speaker 3: decided that he had an addendum that he'd like to contribute,

1205
01:14:23,053 --> 01:14:23,893
Speaker 3: and here it is.

1206
01:14:24,733 --> 01:14:27,853
Speaker 2: I think it's also worth pointing out, of course, that

1207
01:14:28,413 --> 01:14:31,413
Speaker 2: you know, one of the reasons why the asylum seeker

1208
01:14:31,453 --> 01:14:35,693
Speaker 2: issue is an issue is because, you know, as much

1209
01:14:35,693 --> 01:14:38,373
Speaker 2: as some people think this is the case, the people

1210
01:14:38,413 --> 01:14:40,773
Speaker 2: coming over the channel on these small boats are not

1211
01:14:40,893 --> 01:14:43,413
Speaker 2: all young men who are economic migrants. There are many

1212
01:14:43,493 --> 01:14:49,133
Speaker 2: of them who are genuine refugees fleeing places like Afghanistan

1213
01:14:49,213 --> 01:14:52,373
Speaker 2: and the Taliban, and you know the issue of well,

1214
01:14:52,413 --> 01:14:55,173
Speaker 2: do you really want to be completely blocking them from

1215
01:14:55,213 --> 01:14:58,613
Speaker 2: being able to claim refugee status. I mean, Nigel Farage

1216
01:14:58,653 --> 01:15:00,653
Speaker 2: has come out and said that he wants to make

1217
01:15:00,693 --> 01:15:04,173
Speaker 2: deals with Afghanistan to return people to the country. Do

1218
01:15:04,253 --> 01:15:06,973
Speaker 2: you really want to be returning people to the Taliban

1219
01:15:07,013 --> 01:15:10,493
Speaker 2: when they're trying to escape them? And I think more

1220
01:15:10,533 --> 01:15:15,133
Speaker 2: broadly with immigration here, there's this concept that immigration is

1221
01:15:15,613 --> 01:15:18,973
Speaker 2: bad and in particular is the reason for the UK's woes.

1222
01:15:19,773 --> 01:15:22,573
Speaker 2: I mean, I think many people would push back on

1223
01:15:22,653 --> 01:15:26,013
Speaker 2: that and say, you know, it's a complicated issue and

1224
01:15:26,053 --> 01:15:28,653
Speaker 2: there are downsides to immigration. You know, the effect on

1225
01:15:28,853 --> 01:15:34,053
Speaker 2: public services of mass unexpected migration, for example, is real.

1226
01:15:34,613 --> 01:15:38,733
Speaker 2: But also immigration is hugely important to the UK, both

1227
01:15:39,453 --> 01:15:43,173
Speaker 2: economically and culturally, and has been for the last century

1228
01:15:43,253 --> 01:15:45,453
Speaker 2: or two. It's a huge issue here for the government

1229
01:15:45,453 --> 01:15:47,933
Speaker 2: to solve in terms of how to handle it in

1230
01:15:47,973 --> 01:15:50,333
Speaker 2: the best way and what that is. But the idea

1231
01:15:50,373 --> 01:15:53,173
Speaker 2: that immigration is what is causing all of Britain's woes

1232
01:15:53,333 --> 01:15:55,853
Speaker 2: is for the birds, but it is what some people

1233
01:15:55,893 --> 01:15:59,013
Speaker 2: are implicitly arguing. Now it's a classic argument that has

1234
01:15:59,053 --> 01:16:01,493
Speaker 2: been made throughout history to try and come up with

1235
01:16:01,533 --> 01:16:16,813
Speaker 2: a simplistic way to solve the problems for a struggling country.

1236
01:16:19,373 --> 01:16:22,573
Speaker 3: And so end this podcast to ninety nine. Now a

1237
01:16:22,653 --> 01:16:25,653
Speaker 3: couple of things. The mail Room returns next week as so,

1238
01:16:25,653 --> 01:16:28,933
Speaker 3: well let's hear from you, and well we've got a backlog.

1239
01:16:29,053 --> 01:16:30,773
Speaker 2: But the more the merrier, and I.

1240
01:16:30,773 --> 01:16:34,573
Speaker 3: Mentioned Christians Podcast for the Lawyer dot Com but didn't

1241
01:16:34,613 --> 01:16:38,853
Speaker 3: include that in the recent annual podcast awards. Christians took

1242
01:16:38,853 --> 01:16:42,653
Speaker 3: out the best podcast in the appropriate category, and there

1243
01:16:42,773 --> 01:16:47,293
Speaker 3: was plenty of competition. They pretty pleased with himself, So

1244
01:16:47,653 --> 01:16:51,013
Speaker 3: Laton at newstalks AB dot co dot NZ or Carolyn

1245
01:16:51,413 --> 01:16:55,653
Speaker 3: at NEWSTALKSIRB dot co dot nseid complaints to her, compliments

1246
01:16:55,693 --> 01:16:58,973
Speaker 3: to me, and we look forward to joining you for

1247
01:16:59,093 --> 01:17:03,173
Speaker 3: the three hundred podcast next week. So, as always, thank

1248
01:17:03,173 --> 01:17:06,013
Speaker 3: you for listening and we shall talk very soon.

1249
01:17:08,413 --> 01:17:08,733
Speaker 2: M M.

1250
01:17:13,813 --> 01:17:17,453
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B. Listen

1251
01:17:17,533 --> 01:17:20,493
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1252
01:17:20,613 --> 01:17:23,693
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio