1 00:00:06,893 --> 00:00:10,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Canterbury Morning's Podcast with John McDonald 2 00:00:10,733 --> 00:00:11,493 Speaker 1: from News Talks. 3 00:00:12,733 --> 00:00:17,893 Speaker 2: We welcome the politicians, Megan Woods, welcome. Oh, hold on, 4 00:00:17,933 --> 00:00:21,173 Speaker 2: what's happening there? They are? Microphone has not not doesn't 5 00:00:21,213 --> 00:00:23,293 Speaker 2: seem to be working. I'll try that one. How's that one? 6 00:00:23,453 --> 00:00:23,773 Speaker 3: How's that? 7 00:00:25,013 --> 00:00:25,293 Speaker 2: Morning? 8 00:00:25,373 --> 00:00:27,133 Speaker 1: John Morning? Ry that again? 9 00:00:27,173 --> 00:00:31,053 Speaker 2: And nationals Venicea Winnings on the phone. Gillow Vanessa Morning, 10 00:00:31,133 --> 00:00:33,213 Speaker 2: John Morning, Meghan? Are you ever under the weather? 11 00:00:34,773 --> 00:00:38,733 Speaker 4: I suspected clovers. My coffee tasted like crap this morning, 12 00:00:39,453 --> 00:00:41,373 Speaker 4: and it's not fear. 13 00:00:42,413 --> 00:00:45,733 Speaker 3: It definitely goes into not Fear column. The coffee tasting 14 00:00:45,773 --> 00:00:46,173 Speaker 3: not good. 15 00:00:46,653 --> 00:00:53,293 Speaker 2: Can we just start by acknowledging the passing of Kemp Megan, 16 00:00:53,693 --> 00:00:56,893 Speaker 2: did the response that we saw in Parliament yesterday? Did 17 00:00:56,933 --> 00:00:59,253 Speaker 2: it kind of remind you that Parliament does actually have 18 00:00:59,253 --> 00:00:59,693 Speaker 2: a heart. 19 00:00:59,973 --> 00:01:00,373 Speaker 4: Oh? 20 00:01:00,413 --> 00:01:05,493 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think everybody feels it. We feel it 21 00:01:05,613 --> 00:01:09,333 Speaker 3: for obviously the caucus that has been affected in this 22 00:01:09,373 --> 00:01:12,133 Speaker 3: case to Party Marty. I've been a member of a 23 00:01:12,213 --> 00:01:15,493 Speaker 3: caucus when we've lost a sitting MP in Partticua Hodimere 24 00:01:16,453 --> 00:01:18,893 Speaker 3: and it is just devastating. But I think it is 25 00:01:18,933 --> 00:01:22,213 Speaker 3: a time when politicians kind of hit the pause button 26 00:01:22,373 --> 00:01:26,333 Speaker 3: and take stock, because ultimately everybody goes there to serve. 27 00:01:26,413 --> 00:01:29,173 Speaker 3: And I think what we saw, you say was Parliament 28 00:01:29,173 --> 00:01:32,573 Speaker 3: and its best acknowledging that while we don't always agree 29 00:01:32,653 --> 00:01:35,813 Speaker 3: with each other, that Takatai went there as a champion 30 00:01:35,813 --> 00:01:38,853 Speaker 3: of her people, a champion of her community, and went 31 00:01:38,933 --> 00:01:41,373 Speaker 3: there to make a difference and to serve. And it 32 00:01:41,413 --> 00:01:46,173 Speaker 3: was wonderful to see that's very movingly acknowledged yesterday. 33 00:01:46,333 --> 00:01:48,213 Speaker 2: Yeah, Vanessa, I saw on the newslast night it was 34 00:01:48,253 --> 00:01:50,973 Speaker 2: a little bit of you and you obviously removed by it. 35 00:01:51,093 --> 00:01:55,973 Speaker 2: As a first term MP. Were you surprised at the 36 00:01:56,013 --> 00:01:57,453 Speaker 2: way Parliament responded? 37 00:01:58,693 --> 00:02:03,573 Speaker 4: Well, actually no, because unfortunately this is the second time 38 00:02:03,653 --> 00:02:04,693 Speaker 4: it's happened in our turn. 39 00:02:05,053 --> 00:02:05,253 Speaker 2: True. 40 00:02:05,373 --> 00:02:10,653 Speaker 4: Yes, so no, it wasn't a surprise, And for me 41 00:02:11,653 --> 00:02:15,453 Speaker 4: the acknowledgments were very moving, and you know, I just 42 00:02:15,693 --> 00:02:19,773 Speaker 4: seen it the day before and been in the lift 43 00:02:19,853 --> 00:02:24,573 Speaker 4: with her, complimented on her on her purple scent. All 44 00:02:24,653 --> 00:02:27,933 Speaker 4: of the tributes around the Parliament were really beautifully said. 45 00:02:29,533 --> 00:02:33,453 Speaker 4: And also I always think of the people that are 46 00:02:33,493 --> 00:02:37,013 Speaker 4: most affected of her family, for her colleague, her friends, 47 00:02:37,693 --> 00:02:41,653 Speaker 4: and her constituents, and you know, the level of impact 48 00:02:41,693 --> 00:02:44,613 Speaker 4: that it has on other people affects me as much 49 00:02:44,653 --> 00:02:49,333 Speaker 4: as my own sort of shock. I guess yeah. It 50 00:02:49,493 --> 00:02:53,973 Speaker 4: is one of those things that I think is really likely, 51 00:02:54,013 --> 00:02:58,093 Speaker 4: even said, an example of how we all have a 52 00:02:58,173 --> 00:03:01,733 Speaker 4: lot in common underneath the surface things that divide us. 53 00:03:01,893 --> 00:03:06,093 Speaker 4: We are all there to serve. We all do come here, 54 00:03:06,653 --> 00:03:09,333 Speaker 4: go to Parliament with the boost of inteaching and I 55 00:03:09,373 --> 00:03:12,693 Speaker 4: always always deep to respeech my college of all sides 56 00:03:12,773 --> 00:03:15,653 Speaker 4: for that, and it's a loss for us all. 57 00:03:16,853 --> 00:03:19,213 Speaker 2: Can we talk about now the more mundane stuff that 58 00:03:20,373 --> 00:03:24,533 Speaker 2: politics is associated with, and the Inland Revenue putting out 59 00:03:24,573 --> 00:03:27,693 Speaker 2: it's the three yearly sort of looked to the future 60 00:03:28,373 --> 00:03:30,693 Speaker 2: and saying today I'll start with you me saying today 61 00:03:31,053 --> 00:03:33,853 Speaker 2: that it's inevitable that because of the aging population, we're 62 00:03:33,893 --> 00:03:35,493 Speaker 2: going to have to pay more tax and it's saying 63 00:03:35,773 --> 00:03:39,733 Speaker 2: suggested upp in income tax rates and paying more GST. 64 00:03:40,093 --> 00:03:41,013 Speaker 2: What's your response to that? 65 00:03:42,053 --> 00:03:44,613 Speaker 3: And look, this isn't the first time that Inland Revenue 66 00:03:44,813 --> 00:03:48,293 Speaker 3: or Treasury even have sounded a warning about the looming 67 00:03:48,373 --> 00:03:52,973 Speaker 3: costs of superannuation. We've got an aging population in obviously 68 00:03:53,293 --> 00:03:55,613 Speaker 3: that cost money. It's one of the reasons why we 69 00:03:55,733 --> 00:03:59,213 Speaker 3: restarted the contributions to the superfund when we came into 70 00:03:59,253 --> 00:04:02,613 Speaker 3: government because we can't expecting to be taking it every 71 00:04:02,733 --> 00:04:05,013 Speaker 3: year out of that year's tax take. You've got to 72 00:04:05,053 --> 00:04:08,653 Speaker 3: put something away to prepare for it. But look, the 73 00:04:08,773 --> 00:04:10,533 Speaker 3: role of in their own revenue is to do tax 74 00:04:10,613 --> 00:04:13,733 Speaker 3: policy for the government. It's also the role of political 75 00:04:13,773 --> 00:04:16,493 Speaker 3: parties to come up with their own text policy. It's 76 00:04:16,533 --> 00:04:20,173 Speaker 3: exactly why Labor is going through a process thinking about revenue. 77 00:04:21,093 --> 00:04:23,173 Speaker 3: Of course, what we've seen from in lend revenue is 78 00:04:23,213 --> 00:04:27,373 Speaker 3: talking about GST and income tax. But labour's being very 79 00:04:27,453 --> 00:04:30,093 Speaker 3: open that we're going through a process thinking about getting 80 00:04:30,133 --> 00:04:33,693 Speaker 3: revenue from things other than people's uh wait, you know 81 00:04:33,853 --> 00:04:37,533 Speaker 3: wage pack it and that they're they're weekly or fortnightly pay. 82 00:04:38,093 --> 00:04:39,853 Speaker 3: That we start to think about how it is that 83 00:04:39,973 --> 00:04:43,013 Speaker 3: we tax other other other things in this country. 84 00:04:43,173 --> 00:04:45,213 Speaker 2: So as Labor saying thanks but no thanks to IOD 85 00:04:45,573 --> 00:04:47,053 Speaker 2: in terms of p A y E and. 86 00:04:47,173 --> 00:04:50,293 Speaker 3: GST, No, we've been very open John that we're saying 87 00:04:50,333 --> 00:04:54,133 Speaker 3: that we can't continue to only tax people's wages, that 88 00:04:54,253 --> 00:04:57,293 Speaker 3: we've got to have a lock at other things in 89 00:04:57,453 --> 00:05:00,333 Speaker 3: other ways of generating revenue. And we've been very open 90 00:05:00,373 --> 00:05:02,653 Speaker 3: about that and are going through a process with that. 91 00:05:03,613 --> 00:05:06,253 Speaker 3: Of course, advice on GS T and p A Y 92 00:05:06,773 --> 00:05:09,053 Speaker 3: is the bread and butter, and then lend revenue and 93 00:05:09,133 --> 00:05:13,253 Speaker 3: that's the kind of stuff that all governments consult with 94 00:05:13,413 --> 00:05:14,213 Speaker 3: in lean revenue on. 95 00:05:14,453 --> 00:05:16,133 Speaker 2: Right, what was the answer to the question, though, You've 96 00:05:16,173 --> 00:05:18,933 Speaker 2: talked about labor, So what's your response? You saying none 97 00:05:18,973 --> 00:05:22,773 Speaker 2: on a think more creatively than just targeting Poye and 98 00:05:22,893 --> 00:05:27,093 Speaker 2: gust Absolutely right, Okay, Vanessa. Is the government going to 99 00:05:27,133 --> 00:05:29,693 Speaker 2: listen to this or just put it in the tray 100 00:05:29,733 --> 00:05:32,213 Speaker 2: and then pass along eventually to the next administration. 101 00:05:33,253 --> 00:05:35,373 Speaker 4: Well, we've been really clear we're not going to introduce 102 00:05:35,453 --> 00:05:38,133 Speaker 4: any new taxes in this term or anything like that. 103 00:05:38,613 --> 00:05:41,013 Speaker 4: What we're focused on is growing the economy so that 104 00:05:41,093 --> 00:05:44,173 Speaker 4: we've got more of the private news for the things 105 00:05:44,213 --> 00:05:46,693 Speaker 4: that we need. I think that's the thing. Is cutting 106 00:05:46,773 --> 00:05:50,613 Speaker 4: government spending, checking where we can get better bang for 107 00:05:50,733 --> 00:05:54,453 Speaker 4: our buck. Making sure that we've been effective fiscal managers 108 00:05:54,573 --> 00:05:57,973 Speaker 4: is really important. We don't need to just keep plundering 109 00:05:58,053 --> 00:06:01,373 Speaker 4: Kiwi's pockets. We need to actually grow the income for 110 00:06:01,493 --> 00:06:03,693 Speaker 4: this country and that's the most important thing that we 111 00:06:03,813 --> 00:06:05,893 Speaker 4: need to do so that we can do all of 112 00:06:05,973 --> 00:06:07,293 Speaker 4: the things that, hey, we deserve. 113 00:06:07,693 --> 00:06:09,373 Speaker 2: Do you think the government could ever bring itself to 114 00:06:09,413 --> 00:06:11,653 Speaker 2: admit that the tax cuts last year were in steak. 115 00:06:13,213 --> 00:06:15,333 Speaker 4: No. I don't think we're going to admit that because 116 00:06:15,373 --> 00:06:17,493 Speaker 4: there's more money in Key's pockets and they are better 117 00:06:17,613 --> 00:06:19,613 Speaker 4: off spending their money themselves. 118 00:06:19,813 --> 00:06:20,773 Speaker 2: Well, actually they're not. 119 00:06:21,333 --> 00:06:23,653 Speaker 4: Contribute to our economic recovery. 120 00:06:24,173 --> 00:06:26,493 Speaker 2: Well, they're not, they're not. There's a there's an accounting 121 00:06:26,573 --> 00:06:28,933 Speaker 2: in business advisory firm which has come out in recent 122 00:06:29,533 --> 00:06:31,893 Speaker 2: recent weeks saying we're actually five percent we're paying five 123 00:06:31,893 --> 00:06:34,773 Speaker 2: percent more tax. It's not necessarily through government tax, but 124 00:06:34,813 --> 00:06:38,133 Speaker 2: it's factoring in council rates and things. So to say 125 00:06:38,173 --> 00:06:40,693 Speaker 2: that we're paying we're paying less, will be better off 126 00:06:40,813 --> 00:06:41,573 Speaker 2: is not quite right. 127 00:06:42,533 --> 00:06:45,213 Speaker 4: Well, I think that what the government is doing is 128 00:06:45,293 --> 00:06:48,053 Speaker 4: improved in the economy so that the situation is much 129 00:06:48,093 --> 00:06:49,733 Speaker 4: better than it was and would have spent. 130 00:06:50,733 --> 00:06:53,533 Speaker 3: All governments want to grow the economy, All governments want 131 00:06:53,653 --> 00:06:57,293 Speaker 3: to grow the tax take. But I think what has 132 00:06:57,413 --> 00:07:00,653 Speaker 3: to be listened to is those warnings from Inland Revenue 133 00:07:00,933 --> 00:07:03,733 Speaker 3: and from Treasury around how it is we're going to 134 00:07:03,773 --> 00:07:06,853 Speaker 3: fund superannuation into the future, how it is that we 135 00:07:06,893 --> 00:07:09,893 Speaker 3: can make sure that we protect supernuation and that all 136 00:07:09,973 --> 00:07:14,653 Speaker 3: New Zealanders can rightly work their working lives knowing that 137 00:07:14,773 --> 00:07:16,533 Speaker 3: there is going to be enough money to pay them 138 00:07:16,573 --> 00:07:18,653 Speaker 3: their pension at the end of it. We can't just 139 00:07:18,693 --> 00:07:20,853 Speaker 3: say we're going to cut our way to this or 140 00:07:20,893 --> 00:07:23,533 Speaker 3: grow the economy because that happens. We're going to have 141 00:07:23,613 --> 00:07:25,493 Speaker 3: to do some more thinking. And this government is bearing 142 00:07:25,533 --> 00:07:25,853 Speaker 3: its right. 143 00:07:25,973 --> 00:07:29,933 Speaker 2: So is it the difference taxation under labor and national 144 00:07:30,013 --> 00:07:31,933 Speaker 2: fingers trust hoping for economic growth? 145 00:07:34,013 --> 00:07:37,133 Speaker 4: No, we're not just hoping. We're putting out policies and 146 00:07:37,533 --> 00:07:38,933 Speaker 4: working really hard to go our. 147 00:07:38,933 --> 00:07:43,613 Speaker 3: Economy the showpiece in the show piece our. 148 00:07:43,613 --> 00:07:48,533 Speaker 4: Trade we've got. We've got incredibly hard, hard working ministers 149 00:07:48,573 --> 00:07:49,893 Speaker 4: who us doing that all the time. 150 00:07:51,173 --> 00:07:52,853 Speaker 3: Sorry about I thought you'd finished. 151 00:07:52,893 --> 00:07:54,533 Speaker 2: You need to respect someone would come OVID. You need 152 00:07:54,653 --> 00:07:56,573 Speaker 2: to be very respectful of Vanessa. 153 00:07:56,733 --> 00:08:00,293 Speaker 3: I thought she'd finished you, I thought she'd finished. But look, 154 00:08:00,333 --> 00:08:01,773 Speaker 3: I was going to point out. The show piece of 155 00:08:01,853 --> 00:08:05,853 Speaker 3: growth in this year's budget was one percent growth over 156 00:08:05,933 --> 00:08:10,173 Speaker 3: twenty years. That's the growth that is being projected from 157 00:08:10,213 --> 00:08:12,613 Speaker 3: the policies that this government is brought in. That is 158 00:08:12,733 --> 00:08:14,813 Speaker 3: not going to pack up the tab for superannuation. 159 00:08:15,093 --> 00:08:17,013 Speaker 2: Have you done the COVID test, Vanessa? Or you just 160 00:08:17,093 --> 00:08:18,213 Speaker 2: suspect that's what we've got. 161 00:08:18,653 --> 00:08:21,653 Speaker 4: No, I just suspect I haven't. My last test out 162 00:08:21,693 --> 00:08:26,453 Speaker 4: of date by about six months. Suspicious. 163 00:08:26,733 --> 00:08:28,893 Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about the Middle East. Who do 164 00:08:28,933 --> 00:08:31,453 Speaker 2: you believe in it? Who do you don't? Vanessa? Do 165 00:08:31,533 --> 00:08:34,933 Speaker 2: you believe? Do you believe Donald Trump when he says 166 00:08:35,013 --> 00:08:39,973 Speaker 2: that he has or the States has obliterated Iran's nuclear program? 167 00:08:41,133 --> 00:08:42,333 Speaker 2: How much of it are you swallowing? 168 00:08:43,493 --> 00:08:45,853 Speaker 4: I think the approach that the Prime Minister and the 169 00:08:46,773 --> 00:08:49,933 Speaker 4: Minister of Foreign Affairs has been taking a really cautious 170 00:08:50,053 --> 00:08:52,693 Speaker 4: and appropriate. I think we should all wait and see 171 00:08:52,853 --> 00:08:54,573 Speaker 4: as more information comes to life. 172 00:08:54,973 --> 00:08:59,213 Speaker 2: Who do you believe? Come on, come on, I mean, I'm. 173 00:08:59,093 --> 00:09:00,733 Speaker 4: Not going to be drawn on that. I don't think 174 00:09:00,773 --> 00:09:03,813 Speaker 4: it really contributes anything to it. Other doesn't just say Look. 175 00:09:03,893 --> 00:09:06,933 Speaker 4: I think we should all watch and wait, will find 176 00:09:06,973 --> 00:09:09,173 Speaker 4: out more, and I think we should be cautious to 177 00:09:09,253 --> 00:09:10,213 Speaker 4: jump to conclusions. 178 00:09:10,373 --> 00:09:12,533 Speaker 2: All right. Should we read anything into the F bomb 179 00:09:12,613 --> 00:09:15,693 Speaker 2: that Trump, you know, fired off the other. 180 00:09:15,693 --> 00:09:20,293 Speaker 4: Day, I mean he could. He must be extremely frustrated 181 00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:24,053 Speaker 4: with what's going on. He was hoping I think to 182 00:09:24,173 --> 00:09:28,173 Speaker 4: be the man swooping in and saving the day, and 183 00:09:28,293 --> 00:09:30,173 Speaker 4: so to have some kind of stuff it up straight 184 00:09:30,213 --> 00:09:34,893 Speaker 4: away must have been extremely frustrating. So I don't blame him. 185 00:09:35,013 --> 00:09:39,733 Speaker 4: I think he's probably absolutely right about his assessment of them. 186 00:09:39,773 --> 00:09:43,293 Speaker 2: Frankly, Megan, who do you believe him? Come on, I 187 00:09:43,413 --> 00:09:44,813 Speaker 2: want to on a real answer from you. 188 00:09:45,133 --> 00:09:48,293 Speaker 3: Okay, So my real answer is I think New Zealand 189 00:09:48,373 --> 00:09:51,413 Speaker 3: needs to take a stronger position in condemning the attacks 190 00:09:51,533 --> 00:09:55,133 Speaker 3: and pointing out they're not consistent with international law. New 191 00:09:55,213 --> 00:09:58,253 Speaker 3: Zealand has a long and proud and courageous history of 192 00:09:58,333 --> 00:10:01,853 Speaker 3: independent foreign policy. We go into the world with our 193 00:10:01,973 --> 00:10:05,173 Speaker 3: values and our beliefs. As New Zealand is, and New 194 00:10:05,253 --> 00:10:07,893 Speaker 3: Zealand is not doing at the moment, the government needs 195 00:10:07,973 --> 00:10:10,733 Speaker 3: to take a stronger position. We've done it before, Helen 196 00:10:10,813 --> 00:10:13,853 Speaker 3: Clark did it in condemning the illegal invasion of Iraq, 197 00:10:14,493 --> 00:10:17,333 Speaker 3: and I would like to see New Zealand live up 198 00:10:17,453 --> 00:10:20,253 Speaker 3: to that very proud legacy. So for me, it's not 199 00:10:20,373 --> 00:10:23,093 Speaker 3: do you believe them, don't believe it? These were not 200 00:10:23,293 --> 00:10:26,773 Speaker 3: consistent with international law and New Zealand should use its 201 00:10:26,853 --> 00:10:29,213 Speaker 3: voice in the international stage to voice that opinion. 202 00:10:29,293 --> 00:10:32,973 Speaker 2: What if it turns out, though that it's been a 203 00:10:33,053 --> 00:10:34,293 Speaker 2: very successful intervention. 204 00:10:34,853 --> 00:10:37,413 Speaker 3: They're not consistent with international law, and I think as 205 00:10:37,453 --> 00:10:40,293 Speaker 3: a small country at the bottom of the South Pacific, 206 00:10:40,453 --> 00:10:44,053 Speaker 3: our independent foreign policy is a very important place for 207 00:10:44,213 --> 00:10:46,933 Speaker 3: us to stand. It has been since the nineteen forties. 208 00:10:47,213 --> 00:10:49,413 Speaker 2: You could say, though, couldn't you, that you can hide 209 00:10:49,453 --> 00:10:53,533 Speaker 2: behind international law. But international law hasn't necessarily prevented conflicts happening. 210 00:10:53,693 --> 00:10:56,693 Speaker 3: No, but a rules base is the basis of New 211 00:10:56,773 --> 00:11:00,453 Speaker 3: Zealand's security. If we throw out the window a will 212 00:11:00,653 --> 00:11:04,013 Speaker 3: a rules based world order in the way in which 213 00:11:04,093 --> 00:11:07,533 Speaker 3: international relations are organized in New Zealand is in a 214 00:11:07,693 --> 00:11:11,573 Speaker 3: very precarious position. We do not have a very large 215 00:11:12,293 --> 00:11:15,173 Speaker 3: army or navy or air force that can defend us. 216 00:11:15,573 --> 00:11:18,213 Speaker 3: One of the things that most is most important for 217 00:11:18,373 --> 00:11:21,613 Speaker 3: our security is that we do have a rules based 218 00:11:21,693 --> 00:11:24,213 Speaker 3: world order, and we should stand up for that and 219 00:11:24,413 --> 00:11:26,133 Speaker 3: use our voice on every occasion. 220 00:11:26,213 --> 00:11:28,373 Speaker 2: All of Vanessa. What's the government waiting to find out 221 00:11:28,493 --> 00:11:32,093 Speaker 2: or learn before it would consider taking a stance that 222 00:11:32,413 --> 00:11:33,573 Speaker 2: the Vegan talks about. 223 00:11:34,453 --> 00:11:37,413 Speaker 4: Well, I'm not involved in any of those discussions. Obviously, 224 00:11:37,973 --> 00:11:41,173 Speaker 4: don't matters really for the Prime Minister and the minister, Well, what. 225 00:11:41,173 --> 00:11:43,653 Speaker 2: Would what would you want to find out or no 226 00:11:43,893 --> 00:11:45,093 Speaker 2: before you took a position. 227 00:11:45,933 --> 00:11:48,333 Speaker 4: I mean, this is not an area of expertise at 228 00:11:48,373 --> 00:11:51,373 Speaker 4: all for me, And this is the kind of thing 229 00:11:51,493 --> 00:11:56,493 Speaker 4: where I think wise aheads and time will but. 230 00:11:58,613 --> 00:12:01,493 Speaker 2: With respect but with respect to with respect to Megan, 231 00:12:01,493 --> 00:12:03,893 Speaker 2: it's probably it's probably not there of expertise of hers either, 232 00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:04,813 Speaker 2: and she's agreeing with that. 233 00:12:07,013 --> 00:12:11,653 Speaker 4: Meghan's been a cabinet minister, probably had exposure to more 234 00:12:11,693 --> 00:12:16,213 Speaker 4: of these kind of discussions than I have, and been 235 00:12:16,333 --> 00:12:19,653 Speaker 4: in politics for longer than me. So look, I this 236 00:12:19,813 --> 00:12:22,293 Speaker 4: is not an area of expertise and it's really for 237 00:12:22,453 --> 00:12:26,173 Speaker 4: the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs all right. 238 00:12:26,133 --> 00:12:27,933 Speaker 2: Which seems to me sounds to me like the longer 239 00:12:27,933 --> 00:12:29,853 Speaker 2: you're in politics, the biddy you are, or more willing 240 00:12:29,933 --> 00:12:33,853 Speaker 2: you are to shoot. Shoot from that, it's ten twenty three. 241 00:12:34,293 --> 00:12:36,933 Speaker 2: What about that money going to Mowana PACIFICA Right, that's 242 00:12:36,973 --> 00:12:41,093 Speaker 2: up next, Vanessa. How appropriate is it that Fino order 243 00:12:41,173 --> 00:12:45,213 Speaker 2: money went into the Moana pacifica professional rugby team. 244 00:12:46,813 --> 00:12:50,733 Speaker 4: Look, it doesn't sound at all appropriate. It sounds completely 245 00:12:52,333 --> 00:12:55,053 Speaker 4: wrong to me. So it'll be interesting to see what 246 00:12:55,173 --> 00:12:59,133 Speaker 4: the results of inquiries into this as because that's not 247 00:12:59,253 --> 00:13:02,613 Speaker 4: the kind of expectations that I would have for where 248 00:13:02,693 --> 00:13:04,253 Speaker 4: that money should be go. And it's meant to be 249 00:13:04,373 --> 00:13:08,413 Speaker 4: going to for wrap around sermon services for Farno and 250 00:13:08,693 --> 00:13:09,253 Speaker 4: what what. 251 00:13:10,253 --> 00:13:13,693 Speaker 2: What sectors of the community is that funding supposed to 252 00:13:13,893 --> 00:13:14,213 Speaker 2: go to? 253 00:13:15,773 --> 00:13:17,973 Speaker 4: I mean, this is this is meant to be directed 254 00:13:18,253 --> 00:13:21,493 Speaker 4: at Farno who have got who are struggling for many reasons, 255 00:13:21,573 --> 00:13:25,333 Speaker 4: for struggling to access healthcare for example, who might have 256 00:13:25,493 --> 00:13:29,013 Speaker 4: really complex needs where they need to help with navigation 257 00:13:29,253 --> 00:13:33,133 Speaker 4: through a lot of government services. And you know, I've 258 00:13:33,413 --> 00:13:37,173 Speaker 4: dealt with some of those commissioning agencies before in general practice, 259 00:13:37,213 --> 00:13:39,773 Speaker 4: and some of the services that they provided have been 260 00:13:39,853 --> 00:13:45,813 Speaker 4: really fantastic for patients and really changed lives. So it's 261 00:13:45,813 --> 00:13:48,773 Speaker 4: actually really gutting to me to see that there may 262 00:13:48,813 --> 00:13:51,693 Speaker 4: have been some issues of money somewhere if that's what 263 00:13:51,893 --> 00:13:52,933 Speaker 4: turns out to has happened. 264 00:13:53,213 --> 00:13:57,053 Speaker 2: Is it supposed to be for for Maori communities. 265 00:13:56,573 --> 00:14:01,133 Speaker 4: Only, Well, I certainly I think that that's the direction 266 00:14:01,293 --> 00:14:04,333 Speaker 4: that it's meant to have taken. But PACIFICA groups and 267 00:14:04,453 --> 00:14:10,693 Speaker 4: others who been struggling have also been helped from my experience, 268 00:14:10,853 --> 00:14:15,493 Speaker 4: so it's not. Although it is mainly a targeted service, 269 00:14:17,093 --> 00:14:18,613 Speaker 4: it's not been exclusively so. 270 00:14:18,973 --> 00:14:22,533 Speaker 2: All right, Megan was the first. Well, this money started 271 00:14:22,573 --> 00:14:25,533 Speaker 2: going through, this final order, money started going through from 272 00:14:25,613 --> 00:14:28,493 Speaker 2: the outset when Wanna Pacific it was established, which was 273 00:14:28,613 --> 00:14:31,373 Speaker 2: during your time as government. What did you know about it? 274 00:14:31,813 --> 00:14:34,453 Speaker 2: Why would your government have approved it? 275 00:14:34,893 --> 00:14:38,733 Speaker 3: So it's not something that I that I know anything about. 276 00:14:38,573 --> 00:14:40,893 Speaker 2: Okay, but it did start during during your administration. 277 00:14:41,133 --> 00:14:43,573 Speaker 3: Look, I listened to the minister this morning to Tama 278 00:14:43,613 --> 00:14:46,333 Speaker 3: Portucka on Mike Costking, and I actually think he's doing 279 00:14:46,373 --> 00:14:48,253 Speaker 3: the right thing. I think that he's asked for some 280 00:14:48,693 --> 00:14:50,733 Speaker 3: he's asking the right questions and he's asked for those 281 00:14:50,893 --> 00:14:54,053 Speaker 3: answers today and he's saying that he wants to he 282 00:14:54,173 --> 00:14:57,493 Speaker 3: wants to understand what the thinking is behind it, what 283 00:14:57,613 --> 00:14:59,853 Speaker 3: the purpose of an exactly what is going on. And 284 00:14:59,973 --> 00:15:03,013 Speaker 3: I think he's asking the right questions in the right 285 00:15:03,093 --> 00:15:06,373 Speaker 3: time timeframe and we'll be able to make those deceasion 286 00:15:06,573 --> 00:15:07,653 Speaker 3: when he gets that information. 287 00:15:07,733 --> 00:15:09,693 Speaker 2: Okay, you guys copped up though, letting start in the 288 00:15:09,733 --> 00:15:10,173 Speaker 2: first place. 289 00:15:10,533 --> 00:15:12,693 Speaker 3: I don't know and I don't know enough information. 290 00:15:13,013 --> 00:15:15,373 Speaker 2: I'm asking for the report and saying yeah, well done 291 00:15:15,453 --> 00:15:17,173 Speaker 2: to the minister for asking a report. What are you 292 00:15:17,173 --> 00:15:18,893 Speaker 2: guys going to do to look into it to work 293 00:15:18,933 --> 00:15:22,173 Speaker 2: out where, where or how culpable you guys are. 294 00:15:22,533 --> 00:15:25,493 Speaker 3: Well, we don't have the ability to go and ask agency, 295 00:15:25,733 --> 00:15:27,493 Speaker 3: not because we're not the government. 296 00:15:27,613 --> 00:15:29,933 Speaker 2: I can ask for anything I want the IA. Why 297 00:15:29,973 --> 00:15:30,253 Speaker 2: can't you. 298 00:15:30,453 --> 00:15:32,773 Speaker 3: Well, Actually, journalists usually get things a whole lot quicker 299 00:15:32,813 --> 00:15:35,013 Speaker 3: than the twenty one days that I can tell you 300 00:15:35,133 --> 00:15:37,853 Speaker 3: that a member of the opposition. Journalists often get things 301 00:15:37,933 --> 00:15:38,973 Speaker 3: back the same day. 302 00:15:40,333 --> 00:15:43,333 Speaker 2: I suspect you guys going I think, Lordie, think lord 303 00:15:43,413 --> 00:15:45,573 Speaker 2: that's the nets have to front this one for us. 304 00:15:45,693 --> 00:15:47,773 Speaker 3: No, not at all, John, And I think that one 305 00:15:47,813 --> 00:15:50,453 Speaker 3: of the things is that information it would be useful 306 00:15:50,533 --> 00:15:53,093 Speaker 3: if that was shared. If there has been, if there 307 00:15:53,213 --> 00:15:55,933 Speaker 3: has been an inappropriate use of the money, then there 308 00:15:56,053 --> 00:15:58,173 Speaker 3: is something, yes, that has to be help and we 309 00:15:58,293 --> 00:15:59,173 Speaker 3: need to make sure. 310 00:15:59,013 --> 00:16:00,493 Speaker 1: It's not happen again. 311 00:16:00,853 --> 00:16:02,653 Speaker 2: When the Pacific has been around for four years, the 312 00:16:02,733 --> 00:16:05,573 Speaker 2: first three years of its existence, the money came from 313 00:16:05,653 --> 00:16:08,973 Speaker 2: far New Order. That time coincided the start of the team, 314 00:16:09,053 --> 00:16:11,013 Speaker 2: coincided with your administration. 315 00:16:11,453 --> 00:16:13,653 Speaker 3: And I'm not disputing that, John. What I'm saying is 316 00:16:13,693 --> 00:16:16,453 Speaker 3: I think it's important that we look at the information. 317 00:16:16,693 --> 00:16:18,413 Speaker 3: It would be good if we also got to look 318 00:16:18,453 --> 00:16:21,053 Speaker 3: at the information that the minister gets. You asked, what 319 00:16:21,173 --> 00:16:23,573 Speaker 3: are we doing in terms of getting the information? What 320 00:16:23,653 --> 00:16:26,333 Speaker 3: I'm saying to you is, apart from THEAA with a 321 00:16:26,413 --> 00:16:29,093 Speaker 3: twenty one day turnaround and then probably an extension by 322 00:16:29,253 --> 00:16:31,733 Speaker 3: the other ten or twenty one days, we don't have 323 00:16:32,013 --> 00:16:35,693 Speaker 3: access to that information. So I do think the Minister 324 00:16:35,813 --> 00:16:37,853 Speaker 3: on this occasion is doing the right thing asking for 325 00:16:37,933 --> 00:16:40,573 Speaker 3: their information quickly and we'll be able to deal with 326 00:16:40,653 --> 00:16:41,493 Speaker 3: it once he gets it. 327 00:16:41,733 --> 00:16:45,613 Speaker 2: Vanessa Wennix. So the doctors I gather are unhappy with 328 00:16:45,693 --> 00:16:49,613 Speaker 2: the government's new virtual GP service. What's as a former 329 00:16:49,733 --> 00:16:52,533 Speaker 2: GP yourself, what's your position? 330 00:16:53,653 --> 00:16:56,973 Speaker 4: I think what people are concerned about in general practice 331 00:16:57,133 --> 00:17:01,413 Speaker 4: is that there's a loss of something called continuity of care, 332 00:17:01,933 --> 00:17:05,453 Speaker 4: where the more you see the same person, the better 333 00:17:05,613 --> 00:17:08,573 Speaker 4: the quality of care improves because you build up a 334 00:17:08,653 --> 00:17:11,013 Speaker 4: really good knowledge and relationship with a person. And that's 335 00:17:11,053 --> 00:17:17,413 Speaker 4: what general practice is really about. This tallyhealth services are episodic. Here, 336 00:17:17,613 --> 00:17:21,733 Speaker 4: you won't get the same person every time, and it's 337 00:17:21,853 --> 00:17:24,933 Speaker 4: unlikely that you'll sort of be able to develop that 338 00:17:25,173 --> 00:17:27,373 Speaker 4: much better quality of care, and there's plenty of research 339 00:17:27,533 --> 00:17:32,373 Speaker 4: that shows that I think gps are upset that that 340 00:17:32,733 --> 00:17:36,253 Speaker 4: may not well be understood by the general public, and 341 00:17:37,053 --> 00:17:41,533 Speaker 4: I think that it probably reflects a feeling of concern 342 00:17:41,613 --> 00:17:44,573 Speaker 4: about the sustainability of general practice long term. 343 00:17:44,933 --> 00:17:48,653 Speaker 2: So is it patch protection, No, it's not patch protection. 344 00:17:48,893 --> 00:17:52,653 Speaker 4: It's about patients and what's best for them, and about 345 00:17:52,733 --> 00:17:56,533 Speaker 4: expressing the fact that building a good relationship with a 346 00:17:56,613 --> 00:17:59,773 Speaker 4: team and a general practice and a face to face 347 00:17:59,813 --> 00:18:03,653 Speaker 4: setting is really important for people's health long term. It 348 00:18:03,773 --> 00:18:07,053 Speaker 4: makes a difference. There's been research that shows that reduces 349 00:18:07,133 --> 00:18:12,053 Speaker 4: people's likelihood of dying and extends life. So look, I 350 00:18:12,493 --> 00:18:16,013 Speaker 4: agree with them in that case that continuity of care 351 00:18:16,213 --> 00:18:20,813 Speaker 4: is important. And I also understand that remote communities that 352 00:18:20,893 --> 00:18:24,413 Speaker 4: can't be serviced very easily could benefit from Tallyhealth and 353 00:18:24,573 --> 00:18:29,013 Speaker 4: Tellyhealth is a really good adjunct and compliment. What I 354 00:18:29,093 --> 00:18:32,213 Speaker 4: would really stress to people is that it's not a 355 00:18:32,333 --> 00:18:36,333 Speaker 4: replacement for a relationship with a general practice setting. 356 00:18:36,653 --> 00:18:38,973 Speaker 2: Will it be a solution, for example, to the fact 357 00:18:38,973 --> 00:18:40,853 Speaker 2: that we had the after our surgery in christ Church 358 00:18:40,973 --> 00:18:44,693 Speaker 2: closed twice this week because it was overwhelmed by patients. 359 00:18:45,293 --> 00:18:48,853 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think it will be Frankly, the twenty 360 00:18:48,893 --> 00:18:51,453 Speaker 4: four of our surgery has been having has run a 361 00:18:51,573 --> 00:18:54,893 Speaker 4: pilot with their own Kelly Health Service for a while 362 00:18:55,013 --> 00:18:58,773 Speaker 4: as well. It hasn't made any difference. I think that 363 00:18:59,453 --> 00:19:04,813 Speaker 4: Telly Health Services, if they're not careful, can actually contribute 364 00:19:04,853 --> 00:19:10,733 Speaker 4: to increase aren't on in person services because people are 365 00:19:10,853 --> 00:19:14,053 Speaker 4: advised sometimes that they need to be examined and that's 366 00:19:14,213 --> 00:19:15,773 Speaker 4: just a very cautious thing to do. 367 00:19:17,053 --> 00:19:20,173 Speaker 2: How aware of that is the government so well? 368 00:19:20,413 --> 00:19:23,253 Speaker 4: The Government's been made aware of all of these issues. 369 00:19:23,413 --> 00:19:25,613 Speaker 4: This is a solution to try and help as much 370 00:19:25,653 --> 00:19:29,973 Speaker 4: as possible. Whether it does or not will be really 371 00:19:30,093 --> 00:19:33,013 Speaker 4: interesting to see. I think it's a good step forward 372 00:19:33,093 --> 00:19:36,133 Speaker 4: to give more options and more choices. Do you have 373 00:19:36,253 --> 00:19:39,333 Speaker 4: doubts one of a whole list of things that we're 374 00:19:39,373 --> 00:19:41,853 Speaker 4: going to support general practice and patients. 375 00:19:42,373 --> 00:19:43,133 Speaker 2: Do you have doubts? 376 00:19:45,293 --> 00:19:48,733 Speaker 4: I'm very cautiously optimistic that it will help. And I 377 00:19:48,893 --> 00:19:52,733 Speaker 4: understand my colleagues worries and concerns and. 378 00:19:52,853 --> 00:19:54,453 Speaker 2: What is the government going to do in terms of 379 00:19:54,613 --> 00:19:59,493 Speaker 2: the issue with after our clinics in twenty four twenty 380 00:19:59,533 --> 00:20:00,213 Speaker 2: four seven. 381 00:20:00,053 --> 00:20:05,533 Speaker 4: Surgeries, So we've already got a plan to extend more 382 00:20:05,613 --> 00:20:07,253 Speaker 4: services around the country, not. 383 00:20:07,893 --> 00:20:09,573 Speaker 2: In Canterbury though, or not in the South Island, or 384 00:20:09,653 --> 00:20:10,613 Speaker 2: not in Canterbury. 385 00:20:10,653 --> 00:20:13,853 Speaker 4: Not in Canterbury, I mean we already have a twenty 386 00:20:13,893 --> 00:20:17,893 Speaker 4: four hour surgery plus another couple of other extended our surgery. 387 00:20:18,893 --> 00:20:22,573 Speaker 4: I would also hope that with new funding arrangements people 388 00:20:22,773 --> 00:20:28,933 Speaker 4: other clinics might consider also expending ours. That's something that 389 00:20:29,053 --> 00:20:32,093 Speaker 4: will be up to them in their business model if 390 00:20:32,133 --> 00:20:33,413 Speaker 4: it makes sense for them to do so. 391 00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:36,493 Speaker 2: All right, Megan Woods would be would you'll probably be 392 00:20:36,573 --> 00:20:38,173 Speaker 2: doing the same thing if you were in government. 393 00:20:38,653 --> 00:20:41,653 Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the issues we have here. 394 00:20:41,733 --> 00:20:44,773 Speaker 3: I agree with everything Vanessa said about the continuity of KIA. 395 00:20:44,893 --> 00:20:48,733 Speaker 3: Tallyhealth has a role that it can't replace that continuity 396 00:20:48,813 --> 00:20:52,293 Speaker 3: of KIA. Unfortunately, what these leaked documents show is actually 397 00:20:52,373 --> 00:20:55,653 Speaker 3: that's not what her government's policy is showing. If you 398 00:20:55,733 --> 00:20:58,893 Speaker 3: follow the funding, what we're seeing is that Tallyhealth getting 399 00:20:58,933 --> 00:21:03,213 Speaker 3: between fifty five to sixty five dollars per consultation for 400 00:21:03,373 --> 00:21:07,493 Speaker 3: casual patients, but GPS getting fifteen for adults and thirty 401 00:21:08,453 --> 00:21:12,253 Speaker 3: for children. So what we're seeing is quite a destructure 402 00:21:12,293 --> 00:21:15,773 Speaker 3: and the funding there in the policy direction that Vanessa's 403 00:21:15,813 --> 00:21:19,053 Speaker 3: government are the party's government is going and. 404 00:21:19,253 --> 00:21:21,813 Speaker 2: So we've got to move on. But Vanessa, can I 405 00:21:21,973 --> 00:21:24,533 Speaker 2: just test that? Do you think? Can I just test that? 406 00:21:24,613 --> 00:21:27,933 Speaker 2: You talked about business models and practices and things. What 407 00:21:28,253 --> 00:21:30,773 Speaker 2: risk is there of GPS thinking actually we could do 408 00:21:30,773 --> 00:21:33,533 Speaker 2: a bit of running a telehealth service and people finding 409 00:21:33,573 --> 00:21:36,453 Speaker 2: actually gets more difficult to see their GPS face to face. 410 00:21:36,693 --> 00:21:40,533 Speaker 4: Most GP clinics these days, and since COVID have had 411 00:21:41,093 --> 00:21:44,773 Speaker 4: telehealth consultations as an option for their patients. It's an 412 00:21:44,973 --> 00:21:49,813 Speaker 4: ongoing thing that has not changed. What I would say 413 00:21:49,933 --> 00:21:54,493 Speaker 4: is that medon's being a little bit not quite clear. 414 00:21:54,933 --> 00:22:00,333 Speaker 4: GPS practices get bulk funding and capitation, whereas episodic here 415 00:22:00,893 --> 00:22:05,013 Speaker 4: is a fee for service system, so they get subsidized, 416 00:22:05,413 --> 00:22:09,133 Speaker 4: but it's it's not a comparable system to say that 417 00:22:09,213 --> 00:22:11,053 Speaker 4: they only get fifteen dollars to patients. 418 00:22:11,053 --> 00:22:12,893 Speaker 2: All right, we're going to wind it up. But I'm 419 00:22:12,893 --> 00:22:13,973 Speaker 2: going to wind it up, make it would 420 00:22:14,013 --> 00:22:17,773 Speaker 1: Thinking For more from Category Mornings with John McDonald, Listen 421 00:22:17,893 --> 00:22:20,333 Speaker 1: live to news Talks It'd be christ Church from nine 422 00:22:20,373 --> 00:22:23,573 Speaker 1: am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.