1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at Large, 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: you how to get rich, and we're not going to 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series, 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years. 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: For today's podcast, I'm joined by the former manager of 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: the All Blacks and now founder of Winning Teams, Darren Shanned. Hi, Darren, Look, 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: thanks for being here. Very high profile role with the 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: All Blacks obviously, and that's how people know you. So 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: I'm interested. It's been how long since you stepped away? 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: I finished after the World Cup last year. Yeah, so 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: I've had a bit of time with the new group, 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: just to pass on as much as I could. Yeah. Yeah, So, 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: you know, I guess I believe Black so I really 17 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: wanted them to do well too. You know, I think 18 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: it's a you always. I think you talk a lot 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: in the All Blacks about leaving the place and in 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: good shape and leaving the Jersey in a good place. 21 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 2: So a nice transition, a nice transition and actually just 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 2: loving being a fan white thing to them do their 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 2: out their work. 24 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: Now it's in a good season so far, and so 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: you've you're effectively transitioning some of the skills that you 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: brought to managing the All Blacks into sort of a 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: business world. Is that is that how you look at 28 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: what you're doing. 29 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think when I sat down at the 30 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: end of last year and just reflected on who I 31 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: am now, there was a whole I guess, a whole 32 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: lot of principles and philosophies I've learned through that time there, 33 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: And so how can I turn that into something else? 34 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: And we're pretty quickly settled on the fact that I 35 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: just love being like a team player, that there was 36 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: real strength and team and when you could bring a 37 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: lot of good people together, combine them build a great environment, 38 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: you could achieve great things, you know, and even an 39 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: ordinary person can do quite extraordinary things, you know, when 40 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: you've got a teams. So, yeah, with the help of 41 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: a few people, and I've always liked to put my 42 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: hand up for help, and yeah, so I found some 43 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 2: really good people who had worked in that space, and 44 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: we sort of just build an idea really around how 45 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: how can we help both sports and business build winning teams, 46 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: you know, and build teams that support teams. Often with 47 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: the or Blacks, you see the team on the field, 48 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: but you don't see the team behind the team and 49 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: what role they play. So that was kind of the 50 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: general principle. And I look at businesses, most of them 51 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: the teams, a board as a team, an executive team 52 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: as a team, and so how do they are they 53 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,239 Speaker 2: really performing at a high level? And what makes a 54 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: great team? 55 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, is it a straight does it 56 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: translate quite cleanly? I guess I'm trying to find the 57 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: right word. But you know that getting in that high 58 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: performance zone for sports and you know you've got to 59 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: switch on at the right moment and you've got to 60 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: relax at the right moment, all that sort of stuff. 61 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: Do you find that that translates quite well into the 62 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: world of business. 63 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: I think it does, and that I think in business 64 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: there's probably a way. It's been a way of doing things, 65 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 2: and so now that sport has become a business, we've 66 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: learned it to do it a different way. And so again, 67 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: if you come with a growth mindset versus a fixed 68 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: mindset and think well, how can we how can we 69 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: just look at this through a different lens, which is 70 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: what we had to do. Where were high performance as 71 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: such small margins and that you've got to adapt and 72 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: earn really fast. You have a bit more time in business, 73 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 2: so actually you've got space, And I guess the big 74 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: thing I've learned was actually to get missuses to actually 75 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: they don't actually look at performance in that sense what 76 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: is actually high performance? They tend to be more metric based. 77 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: And often I tell the story quite often people would say, 78 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: you guys are judged by win. Last I said, well, 79 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: that's what the outside will see, but that's not what 80 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: we're driven by. And so we're not an outcome yes, 81 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: to the public, we're an outcome based to organization. That's 82 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: what high performance sport is often measured by. But internally 83 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: we were driven by a whole lot of other things 84 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: that actually allowed us to achieve those outcomes. You know, 85 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: and often I think, you know, if a business is 86 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: driven by a profit, well but what does that all mean? 87 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: You know? 88 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was looking at at an individual level 89 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: kind of like as you said, like businesses will often 90 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: have a metric which they're sharing with the team or 91 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: an algorithm. They're trying to beat certain targets. But are 92 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: you sort of suggesting that we probably should do a 93 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: little bit more work inside our heads. 94 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think. 95 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 2: What I learned the most was that first you got 96 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: to have yourself sorted. And what I see a lot 97 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: in business is this what i'd call sort of very 98 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: vertically oriented organizations where position and power mean everything. And 99 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: what I've found in sport is it we probably tended 100 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: to operate more at a horizontal level, where we collaborated 101 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: a lot more to order to move up the vertical 102 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: access and in the end, like position became irrelevant because 103 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: it was actually more about role and each person. If 104 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 2: you take the sport analogy, when you go into a 105 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 2: field in a rugby game, everyone gets a jersey has 106 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: a number on it that just defines a role. And 107 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: so often I feel people are so in a hurry 108 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: to get further up the ladder, Yeah, they actually forget 109 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: about improving themselves. And I think that's what we did 110 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: in sport, was if we can get you the best 111 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 2: we can be, the team will win and you will win, 112 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: like it'll be a duel due outcome. So those are 113 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: some of the ideas I've been sharing and trying to 114 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,559 Speaker 2: There's certainly questions that come hard at you from businesses around, 115 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: But that's easy in sport. You know, we couldn't do 116 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: that in business. But I've found lots of ways to 117 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: sort of talk around those stories and find different different options, 118 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: different loads of thinking. 119 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: All right, that's great. I'd like to come back to 120 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: some of those things as we chat. But you know, 121 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: with money talks, we always like to go back and 122 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: get a bit of your backstory and how you ended 123 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: up on this all Blacks journey and frame it with 124 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: you know, some memories of money. So I guess first 125 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: thing I would ask is, you know, do you have 126 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: an earlier, earliest memory of money, the first time you 127 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: might have held money in your hand. 128 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: Probably Monopoly, Yeah, with the family family holidays and that 129 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: was always a big big piece of the beach holiday 130 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: in the caravan and monopoly and competer to the games. 131 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, super competitive, yeah, very very much so. And 132 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: probably we lived. I grew up in Hawk's Bay and 133 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: we lived just on the outskirts of Hastings and makes 134 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: all the orchards, and so pretty early on I was 135 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 2: next door in the orchard getting paid ten cents for 136 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: every used to make wooden boxes to put the fruit 137 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: and and so that was my first job putting those boxes. 138 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: Given thinking off, I get one hundred done today, you 139 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: know ten bucks? 140 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, hard work. 141 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 3: Hard work, but yeah, that was good. 142 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: It was that sort of after school or just the 143 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: season right and. 144 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: School holidays and things like that, could just jump over 145 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: the fence and going able to work there. 146 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: And with the things that things that you were saving for, 147 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: or were you spending the money down the dairy. 148 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: Or I was really like I was a sports jock, 149 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 2: you know, so it was always about having the best 150 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: sports here, and I was probably I always had this 151 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,119 Speaker 2: aspiration to be the best I could. So I always 152 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 2: wanted the best stuff because I felt if I if 153 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: I looked good, I felt good that I'd play good. Yeah, 154 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 2: and so you know, it was always like I need 155 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: the latest cricket pads or you know, I need these 156 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: boots for rugby or for hospital. 157 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: With the sports, because it wasn't always just you know 158 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: that rugby wasn't necessarily play rugby. 159 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: Long stopped when I was about thirteen, and I was 160 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: doing pretty well at hockey as well, so I kind 161 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: of that became the winter thing, and cricket was a 162 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: big it was a big summer thing. So yeah, it 163 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: did well at school and reached some good levels that 164 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: I was pretty happy with, but as soon as got 165 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: to university I just pretty much dropped them. You know. 166 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: I just had a bad experience at Uni with my hockey. 167 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: I had some really high aspirations with hockey to go 168 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: sort of all the way, and. 169 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: Had a bad coaching experience. 170 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 2: Really, yeah, I just lost the love of it, you know. 171 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: Yeah's quickly discovered skiing when I was in Queenswn. Well 172 00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: that looks a little bit better for the winter, so 173 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: kind of quickly sort of pivoted into really found a 174 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: love for the outdoors. And then then I moved to 175 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: Queenstown as soon as I finished my degree, really because 176 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: I just wanted to be just had that passion for 177 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: doing outdoor adventures. 178 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: But right through school it was you actually did our 179 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: outdoor education or physical education as a as a as 180 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: a degree, is that right? 181 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? 182 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, So through school were those that sort of it 183 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: was a bit of science and that and. 184 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: Real mixture teaching. I think was probably the both parents 185 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: were teachers, So I remember when I was an intermediate. 186 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: A guy came into our school. He was the brother 187 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: of one of my teachers, and he was a phyzed teacher. 188 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: And this guy had like every pair of shoes for 189 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: a resport. And I was like wow, you know and 190 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: and I yeah, pretty much from that day and I 191 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 2: said to him that I'm going to Dunedin and I'm 192 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: going to study sports and physical education and never considered 193 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: anything else. Really, Yeah, I got down there. In my 194 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: first semester, we had to do some teaching like a 195 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: teaching paper, and I got sent to a I go 196 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: girls high school and I got this had my lesson plan. 197 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: Or sort of. 198 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: I could not get the girls out of the class. Yeah, 199 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: I couldn't get to be able to changing room. So I 200 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: was like, no, I'm not for teaching. So that's kind 201 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: of when the outdoor, the recreation side, a bit of 202 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: the sports science. I quite enjoyed the whole you know, 203 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: how the athletes get better and so that's the thing 204 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: with Vizita. It was quite a diverse range of topic 205 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 2: areas in. 206 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: A lot of different directions, but you ended up, if 207 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: I read it right, I ended up with aj Hackett 208 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: and the bungee jumping operation is that right. 209 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I met aj early on when he first 210 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: came to Queenslander set the bungee up. 211 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: So how nearly is this just just like right? 212 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 2: Literally I don't remember. I think around nineteen eighty seventy 213 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: jumped from the Eiffel Tower and that kind of launched 214 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: the business. 215 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: And then he was in the birth of bungee jumping. 216 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he sort of started at the Carlile Bridge 217 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 2: and that stage I was a rafting guy, so we 218 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: were going under it every day and I actually took 219 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: him rafting one day and that's how I got to 220 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 2: meet him, and he just said to me, if you 221 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: want to come work for me, letting me know. So 222 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: two or three years later, as I just rang him 223 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: and started off just driving the bus out to the bridge. 224 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: Who worked on the bridge, and he probably gave me. 225 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: He was the first person I think that really believed 226 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: that I could do more than just be a you know, 227 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: that I could lead and manage people and stuff, and 228 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: so he sort of gave me the chance. The other 229 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: thing I really learned from him was the notion of 230 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 2: risk and business, and he was an entrepreneur, really entrepreneurial, 231 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: took a massive risk, big vision, really big vision. Yeah. 232 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 2: And you know, the funny thing was that bungee was 233 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 2: a personal challenge for people, and you'd stand there in 234 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: that moment and think life's over. That was incredibly safe 235 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: and so while people saw it as a risk, the 236 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: actual risk of the process was super low, you know, 237 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: far less risky than going rafting, for example. And the 238 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: other thing I learned was when he allowed me to 239 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 2: lead and manage, you develop a different mindset around the 240 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 2: risk that he's carrying as a business owner versus being 241 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: a work and go, come on, mate, you've got to 242 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: pay me more. You know, I'm doing a great job here, 243 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: and you don't understand all those macare and know he 244 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: was trying to go global and go quickly, and so 245 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 2: it was. It was very very interesting. And the final 246 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: lesson I got from him, which I love, was whenever 247 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: he came back, because the company went international very fast, 248 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: he spent a lot of time if sure, and when 249 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: he came back, he had always the first thing you'd 250 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: do was organize a party, because he just wanted people 251 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: to loosen up and tell him everything that was happening. 252 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: Then the next day we would have a debrisch and 253 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: get it down to business where their other boss was like, 254 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: he would have a meeting first, anybody have a party after. 255 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: So it was it was very interesting, but an awesome 256 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: human being. 257 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I mean that that that risk thing is 258 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: interesting because that is a big part of you know, 259 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,599 Speaker 1: when I talk to successful people often it's it's that 260 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: ability to assess risk well. I mean people you know, 261 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: as you say, there's different different kinds of risk and 262 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: different levels of risk, and you know often we're kind of, 263 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, a motive about you know, how risky something is. 264 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 3: I think he was. 265 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: It was almost like they were on a wave and 266 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: they just kept surfing it for a while. And the 267 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: good thing was the process and this and the structures 268 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: around the actual operation were so sound, you know, and 269 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,719 Speaker 2: that he had done all that work well before he 270 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,079 Speaker 2: launched it. So but it never removed the challenge that 271 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 2: everyone faced when they took the step out to the edge, 272 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 2: which was the really nice thing about it. 273 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: So how long we were I had about. 274 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: Five years with them, and I kind of got to 275 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 2: the point of my crew just about ten thirty and 276 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: I was like, what next, you know, I thought about 277 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: doing an NBA. Actually went through the process of you 278 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: have to sit an entrance thingsam So. 279 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: I inspired by doing more of business stuff. 280 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just felt I had more and I sort 281 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 2: of felt there was a ceiling in Queenstown at that stage. 282 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: Tourism was the late eadies, early noise was probably the 283 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 2: first sort of big food to change. 284 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,239 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and I just felt. 285 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: I could do more, and I sort of felt sport 286 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: really the calling of sports somehow, and so an opportunity 287 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: just popped up in the role with aj Hackett was 288 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: sales and marketing role, and so a rugby role popped 289 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: up in sort of sponsorship in the commercial side with 290 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 2: the Canterbury Rugby. So you just went up and had 291 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: an interview and I was pretty fortunate that that must 292 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 2: have been. Was that pretty super rugby? No, it was 293 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: just just as it was ninety eight, Yeah, just early 294 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: days of professionals, so you still had a lot of something. 295 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: Was the ninety six was year one, Yeah, so you 296 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: had that whole transition where guys had sort of started 297 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: the amateur and now they were being paid. Yeah, so 298 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: it went from being the fun to their job. So 299 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: it was a fascinating time. 300 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: A sort of step back. Basic question here is just 301 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: can you take us through what a team manager does 302 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: for rugby team, you know, because in football in the 303 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: in the UK and things, the manager often sort of 304 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: means the coach, but it's different in New Zealand. 305 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, well there's I guess the role that I 306 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: first had was when I started with Sta Graham here, 307 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: it was actually the general manager and so technically Graham 308 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: reported to me, and so when we sat down to 309 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: discuss how it was going to work, he said, Darren, 310 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 2: I just want to coach and I just want you 311 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: to sort out everything else, and so I said fine. 312 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 3: So that's what we did. 313 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: Where it probably finished was there's probably two big buckets 314 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: to the role, So it was it was set up 315 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 2: as a leadership role. So one was to provide a 316 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: bridge between the organization and the team, so I said, 317 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: on the executive of the organization because a lot of 318 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: decisions that were made commercially, financially, legally impacted the team 319 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: and performance. So I needed to be part of that 320 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: conversation and provide an all back perspective to everything within 321 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: New Zealand Rugby. So that was one part. So that 322 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 2: whole business side, all the commercial stuff, the communications, all 323 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: of that, and then on the team side was really 324 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: just the operation, which is, you know, seventy people traveling 325 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: around the world. We don't have a base, a little logistics, 326 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: a lot of logistics, a lot of operational requirements. Basically 327 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: allowing the coach to turn up to any training field 328 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: in here in the world and knowing that it's pristine, 329 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: every piece of equipment and needs secure et cetera. So, yeah, 330 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: that was a big and there was a big team 331 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: of people contributing to that, and that sort of grew 332 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: and grew the more you imagine probably the last team, 333 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: you suddenly security became a real big issue for us. 334 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: Not protecting ourselves from spies or anything, but just the 335 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: world we're now playing in Paris, there's a level one 336 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: security of it. How we're going to manage ourselves, you know. 337 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of sol I mean, you're solving 338 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: a lot of problems so that the team and the 339 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: coach don't have to deal with them. 340 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 2: I guess you're sort of enabling the team to be 341 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: able to get on and do their thing and with 342 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: limited distractions and constantly thinking about the performance equation and that, 343 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: so how can they be in the best shape on 344 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: Saturday but without I think the big thing in one 345 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: of the I think the features of the period was 346 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 2: you've got to build independence in your athletes because that's 347 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: what they've got to be like on the field. So 348 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: if you've got a very big staff, you can become 349 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: quite dependent, like the athlete's going to get dependent on 350 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: you because you did everything for anything happening. 351 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: So it was like a. 352 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: Trying to build an environment where people could still keep learning, 353 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: still manage their own lives. But we seamlessly have a 354 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: lot of things there, the tools in place, the structures 355 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: in place, so that that could happen. 356 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: So was the financial pressure, I mean, it's a professional game. 357 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: Did you have to soak up some of the you know, 358 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: the commercial side of it. 359 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 360 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: I think we're both from a you know, a revenue perspective, 361 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: making sure that there was a good fit between some 362 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: of the companies we're partnering with and and sort of 363 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 2: the values that the team holds really highly. And similarly, 364 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: the only coaches want more and more and I need 365 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: this coach, I need this coach, And so it was 366 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: often a case of we had a great we had 367 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: great chairs, we had great boards that I guess in 368 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: a lot of ways we educated them about performance so 369 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: that they could support us in the way that we needed. 370 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: And I guess we're always conscious of the fact that 371 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: while we needed what we needed, the pool of money 372 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 2: that we were taking from was also. 373 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: For the whole of the game, right, Yeah, so. 374 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: While we had a share of it where you had 375 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: to be careful and yes, we drove a lot of 376 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: the revenue. 377 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but drives revenue. 378 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, that's right. 379 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: I mean you probably talked about this a bit, but 380 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: obviously you were went through the lows and then the 381 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: highs with the all blacks. I mean, do you're cool? 382 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: You know how it sort of changed the way you 383 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: looked at it, sort of like say two thousand and 384 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: seven compared to twenty eleven. 385 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 2: Well, there was a lot of Again, it's about sort 386 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: of the mindset you take into the losses. 387 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 4: You know. 388 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: Bill Gates said, you know, success as a lousy teacher, 389 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: and I actually go, well, Bill, we were eighty three percent. 390 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: So if you lean into learning lessons, it doesn't matter 391 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: whether you win or lose. You've got to in high performance, 392 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: you've got to constantly be learning because the because the 393 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: margins are so small and everyone wants to be at 394 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 2: the top of the mountain and there's only room for one, 395 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 2: and so you're either there or you're not. 396 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: And it can be cruel, right because you've done all 397 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: the work and and everything might have gone really well. 398 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: The ball can bounce a funny way. That's it, and 399 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: that's and then the rest of New Zealand just you know, 400 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: raps one way or the other. 401 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: I know, I just ended up being quite pragmatic and go, 402 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 2: I can only do what I can do, and I've 403 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: just got to be proud of what I've done. And 404 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: when you went eight out of ten times, it's actually 405 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: that became more challenging than losing more often, if you 406 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: know what I mean, because your complacency can arrive very quickly, 407 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 2: and it's it's almost like a silent thing that you 408 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: don't actually know it until they run on the field 409 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: or you watched the first five minutes ago. We're not there, 410 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: So it was, yeah, it was Actually the value of 411 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: seven was that we did a pretty rigorous review. Like 412 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: Graham nearly lost his job. Thankfully, the board realized that 413 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: a team him, Steve and Wayne were a team, and 414 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: that was we were blessed to have those three gentlemen, 415 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 2: you know, so it allowed us to carry on. But 416 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: the lessons we learned from OST seven actually served us 417 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: for ten years because we kept coming back to them 418 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: to say we wouldn't forget. And I think even last year, 419 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: before I went to France, I pulled out the O 420 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: seven report. Is there anything we're missing going back back here? 421 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 3: You know? 422 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: And so if you lean into it, it's fine, but 423 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: it does take its toll. 424 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, is there how much of it? 425 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 3: You know? 426 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: Getting the psychology right? I mean, sports psychology is a 427 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: big thing. Now you have to work with the players 428 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: and get the mindset right. I mean, is that one 429 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges. 430 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 2: I think it was probably the biggest thing that defined 431 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: our period that we decided to take that on because 432 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: we used to have the saying and the team it's 433 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 2: easy to sweat and like the player, you're going and 434 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 2: tell them to do more gym work, they'll do it. 435 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 2: You tell them to run more, they'll do it. But OK, 436 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 2: how about them go and sit down and work on 437 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 2: your mental skills or look at how you cope with 438 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: pressure or why you made that decision. And actually that's 439 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: a skill, and it's the one you've got to learn, 440 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: And I think the biggest thing we learned out of 441 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: seven was if we had to define what our job was, 442 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: we had to build self reliance in our players so 443 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: they could lead themselves, and we had to make them 444 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 2: really good at making the decisions under pressure. So everything 445 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 2: we did had to be about that. So if you're 446 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 2: talking operationally, i'd want to just give them the plan. 447 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: I wanted to go and find it and see what 448 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: it meant for them and determine what their plan looked 449 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: like for the week. So those were sort of constantly 450 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: trying to build this independence and people. 451 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 452 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was I think in the end, probably 453 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: the thing that shifted us the most. That realizing that 454 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 2: the mental side of the game was as important as 455 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: a physical side, as technical as a technical as as 456 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: the food you eat, as is having life sorted at home, 457 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: That there was all these factors in getting an athlete 458 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 2: ready to play. 459 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: Just to bring it back to money, but you know 460 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: that the in the old days, especially maybe the early 461 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: days of professionalism, because there wasn't money before then, but 462 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, there was that sense that sometimes you know 463 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: that the player, not all blacks necessarily, but sports players 464 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: would have a short career and make a lot of 465 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: money and struggle. Was there sort of support, you know, 466 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: do the players get support about how to manage the 467 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: financial side of their lives and things as well, so 468 00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: that they. 469 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that one of the real strengths was 470 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: the and at times it's testy the relationship between the 471 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: Players Association and the organization and they've got a real 472 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: high level of care for players and so I think 473 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: in my very early days at Canterbury there was a 474 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: pilot done of what they call a player development manager, 475 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: so someone that comes in with the full responsibility just 476 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: for looking for plaers life outside of araby, so family, education, employment, 477 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: and it was a voluntary program but it's still to 478 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 2: this day in place. So that's one aspect where there's 479 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: a real good opportunity for people to jump into that 480 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: and set themselves up. The second was that as the 481 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: sport got more and more, professional agents became a part 482 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: of the scene and a lot of them do really 483 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: good work in that space in terms of helping get 484 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 2: players set up. 485 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: It's a strange thing and really you know, young young 486 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: people getting quite a high salary quite early and then 487 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: but maybe with a relatively short window, you know, or 488 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: ten years or something like that, had to set themselves up. 489 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 2: Hard to you know, in the pre professional days, you 490 00:21:58,600 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: could probably still do a degree and be an all. 491 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, but it was quite hard to do. 492 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: You know. We had a few players would still do 493 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 2: a paper a year, you know, but it was hard 494 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: even I am noticing more though. One thing we did 495 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: learn was if if we could give them more real 496 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: life experiences outside of sport while they were a sports person, 497 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: was really valuable because they often did miss that real 498 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 2: life experience. You just come into this world where everything's 499 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: there for you, and so a lot of them would 500 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: go and jump into a company and do a day's 501 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 2: work just to see what it's like having experience. And 502 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: I see more of that now, which I think is 503 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: it was a really good thing because Offen, you get 504 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 2: to thirty, you're done, and you're like you've got nothing? 505 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 4: What? 506 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? 507 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: Now? 508 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 3: Yeah? 509 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: And I mean I finished twenty years and it was 510 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: the same. You know, in a lot of ways, I've 511 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: got a whole lot of skills, but how do I 512 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: best utilize them? So? 513 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, what was it was? It just felt like 514 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: time to do something different. Yeah, I mean I guess 515 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: it's a difficult job to do. You're doing it for 516 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: as long as you did, it was almost quite remarkable 517 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: in itself. Really when you look around the world top 518 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: level sports. 519 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 2: I think what I have learned is it success is 520 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: built on experience too, you know, like too often in 521 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: sport results become so parament that people just get chopped 522 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: and in the end it's again I go back to 523 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: this whole notion of teams, you know, because there was 524 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: a consistency of people over a long period allowed systems 525 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: and structures and cultures to be built that were sustainable, 526 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: you know, and people the type of people they wanted 527 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: to keep improving. So that was a that was a 528 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: really sort of key element to it. 529 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 4: I think, Yeah, I've got a few more sort of 530 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: specific quick fire questions about money that we ask, but 531 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 4: we can keep bringing it back to some of the 532 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 4: stuff about teams and performance. 533 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: But looking back, what's the poorest you ever. 534 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 3: Been at university? Yeah? 535 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: I think when I finished university I was heading off 536 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: to Queenstown. My last couple of year at university, I 537 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: got into doing traithline something out to buy bikes and 538 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: things like that, and the student loan blearned out of it, 539 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: you know. And I don't think actually had student loans, 540 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: and I think we had overdrafts. Yeah, and so I 541 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: headed to Queenstown. I was bunking down and the mates 542 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 2: flat in the lounge for probably the first six weeks, 543 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: and every day going to the money machine and hoping 544 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 2: there was enough to buy some food. Yeah, and I 545 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 2: didn't really have a job because I was still training, 546 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: still do my raft guides training. Managed to pick up 547 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: a driving job which kind of just kept me going 548 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 2: until I got my rafting ticket, and then the summer arrived, 549 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 2: so there was plenty of works. 550 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: So that was the first first real job you had, 551 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: was as a rafting guide or yeah, yeah, yeah when 552 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: you I guess might not have been then, but at 553 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: some point when you when you finally had a bit 554 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: of money in your pocket, was there something that you 555 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: splashed out on or that you sort of thought finally 556 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: I can afford now. 557 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: I was kind of always drawn to the things that 558 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: I was most interested in, you know, So again probably 559 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,239 Speaker 2: a bit like the analogy around buying the pads when 560 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: I played cricket, you know. Yeah, in Queenstown it was 561 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: all about skiing, so you need to have every season 562 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: of ski and mountain biking has sort of just taken off. 563 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: And I'd been into that trithon it sort of stopped 564 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 2: for me, and I'd got into mountain biking and trail running, and. 565 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 3: So there was always that. 566 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: But I think in the long time, I'd always had this, 567 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 2: Like most keys, I always wanted to get my own place. Yeah, 568 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: and so yeah, I bought a place in Queenstown in 569 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: nineteen eighteen, and. 570 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: Well that was a good move. 571 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: Got move, yeah, because I guess that, but it was 572 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 2: it wasn't like I had nothing, though you wanted to 573 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: live up getting two loans from two different banks to 574 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: one for a deposit and one for the mortgage. But 575 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 2: I paid like sixty thousand dollars for a two bedroom 576 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: townhouse or something, and. 577 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: It really sort of all took off from there. 578 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 2: It was crazy, and I got out reasonably early, maybe 579 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: five or six years later, and now I did well, 580 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 2: But I look at what I could have done. 581 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: It's always you know, yeah, I mean, you know, it 582 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: almost certainly isn't for most people. But how much as 583 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: money and those financial things been a driver through through 584 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: your career, not. 585 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: Really, I you know, I never actually wanted the all 586 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: Black job, like it wasn't something that I sort of 587 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: had put on my life path. Kind of circumstances allowed 588 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: it to happen, and I never was one to really 589 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: sort of debate what I got paid. Just always felt, 590 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: you know, pay me what my worth. I think I've 591 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 2: only once in my whole career gone back to I 592 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: think we need to get a look at this, But 593 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: I just felt it sounds a little bit colcher, but 594 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 2: I actually felt incredibly privileged to have that job. You know, 595 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: like some of the people that have been before me, 596 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 2: the circles of people that you had to work with, 597 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: the opportunities that popped up which now have all become 598 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 2: you know, networks and relationships that have been built, and. 599 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: The history, I mean the history and the value in 600 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: that brand for New Zealand. I mean that all Blacks 601 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: is probably the biggest brand we've got. 602 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 2: I think it's certainly been helpful, and I guess I 603 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 2: always a bit, like I said earlier, always felt I 604 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: was pretty ordinary, but I was part of something extraordinary 605 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: and and just sort of realizing the contribution you're making 606 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 2: became more important and how it's it's very inspiring being 607 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: in an environment that were you see the effort that 608 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: people are putting in all the time, and you can't 609 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: get caught up in it yourself and think, well, gosh, 610 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: I've got to how can I be the best version 611 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: of myself? 612 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: And terrifying. I mean in some ways the passion puts 613 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: it on a level, like, you know, people care about 614 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: the economy and if your finance minister or Reserve bank governor, 615 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of pressure. But people actually probably 616 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: more likely to get upset. And you know. 617 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: I think again, that's just how you always. 618 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: And we I think a big turning step from OS 619 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 2: seven and actually say let's walk towards pressure. Let's not 620 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: be afraid of it. Let's how cool is that we 621 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 2: can we can do things people have never done before. 622 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: And it became more above the line in terms of 623 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: our aspiration. Then I'll let it get to you and 624 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: you have to you have to be skinned. Yes, you 625 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 2: have to not take things too personally because it'll ruin you. 626 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: From my side, the media, is it tough dealing with 627 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: the media from an all blacks perspective? 628 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 2: I think the thing I wouldn't say it was tough. 629 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: I think the thing that happened over the period. I 630 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 2: was just the expansion of the media. Yeah, you know, 631 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: so suddenly you had you had a group of media 632 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: who are used to it being doing a certain way, 633 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: and then suddenly you've got all these other layers that 634 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: there was just as much expectation for us to deliver 635 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 2: to them as it was to what I'd call there 636 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 2: was traditional in you and so then and then you 637 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: lay in broadcasting, so then became like the biggest funder. 638 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: So you've you've got to accommodate them. Then you've got 639 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: the new media, social and and so it became that 640 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 2: became the challenge, trying to get the balance right, trying 641 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 2: to meet everyone's needs, but then still not let it 642 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: become a distractor for performance. 643 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. I guess what I did struggle with at. 644 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: Times was more from outside where plays couldn't cope with it, 645 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: and I think that fell on us to get them 646 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: better prepared to be able to deal with it. 647 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's always felt the media, training. 648 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: Felt the media with the the conduit to the fans, 649 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: you know, and like so you know, I'm not talking 650 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: to you, I'm talking to the audience, you know, And 651 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,239 Speaker 2: so trying to get that in place. But yeah, like 652 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: it was one of those jobs you're never going to 653 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: get everyone satisfied, you know. 654 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: And so you can't worry too much. 655 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it. 656 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: Was really you always trying to get that people to 657 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,959 Speaker 2: see that you're accessible, and then often the mainstream wouldn't 658 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: see the accessible. We've done all these things which we 659 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: hadn't invited the media too, because we just wanted to 660 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 2: do the right thing by. 661 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 3: A charity or or make a wish for a kid. 662 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: Or something like that. So it was a real it 663 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 2: was a it was a balance, you know, it was 664 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 2: tough going. 665 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you spend money on yourself, now, what's the 666 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: most sort of indulgent things you'd do for yourself. 667 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 668 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: I've still always been about the toys. Yeah, but I 669 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: got kids and pretty passionate about them having their best chance, 670 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: you know. So I got a daughter at UNI and 671 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: a daughter nearly finished high school. So and I think 672 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: now I've got the chance to spend more, you know, 673 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: while we were away let's say three to four months 674 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: a year there eight months I work from home. So 675 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: I was actually really lucky. I wasn't a nine to 676 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: five Yeah, Yeah, so that was that was actually good 677 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: I used to say to my wife, you know, eight months, 678 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: I'm actually at home, you know, even though and I 679 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: could pick and choose what I do. So but now 680 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: just you watching watching them be successful, and they've only 681 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 2: known me doing you know, so they didn't know what 682 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: a nine to five dad was because I wasn't. I 683 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: was in that person. 684 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: You're still you know, You've still got a sports you're doing. 685 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still very passionate about biking, so do a 686 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: lot of mountain biking, road cycling, and still run. I 687 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: can still get the old carcass around. 688 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: The bottes are still holding out. 689 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I'm still skiing, still probably my my biggest passion, 690 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: and done a little bit of surfing the last few years, which. 691 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 3: Of course enjoyed. 692 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: You've got a garage full of plenty of gear. 693 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I don't know, just it's it's it's 694 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: just a I just find there's a connection with pushing 695 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 2: yourself physically that you kind of can get into this 696 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: while it's hard physically, you kind of get into the 697 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 2: states sometimes where it's actually really good for you. 698 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 699 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: A great place I can find just riding the bike, 700 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: A great place to think, you know. Yeah, I just 701 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: started to use surriy to record things while I ride, 702 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 2: you know, because all these great ideas come, you. 703 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: Know, yeah, just while you let your brain. Yeah, it's 704 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: quite dictative. I find that with running right, you just 705 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: chagging along and your brain can, yeah, go through very 706 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: good thoughts. A question I've been asking people is about 707 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: whether you buy lotto tickets and if you imagine winning lotto, 708 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 1: how much do you imagine winning? 709 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, Like it used to be like a 710 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 2: million dollars was a lot, wasn't it. Yeah, And now 711 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: we have jackpots that are thirty so I don't I 712 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: kind of I'm very much sort of living inside the 713 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: bubble of what I can control. 714 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: You know. 715 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I still buy to take it every week, but 716 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 3: don't pay much notice to it. 717 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, yeah too, I'm like, oh, I 718 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: haven't ticked that, you know, sort of have it because 719 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: called me ask it? 720 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: Because you know, sometimes the idea of winning thirty million 721 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: dollars or something like that might be actually quite traumatic 722 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: upheaval of life and then you've got to manage money 723 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. Yeah, and another big 724 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: question and answer it how you'd like, really, But you know, 725 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: when when you look at New Zealand and and you 726 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: know the issues that we have in a whole bunch 727 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: of areas, social, inequality, all those sort of things. If 728 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: we could make you Prime Minister for the day and say, 729 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, focus on one thing, what what the what's 730 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: the area that you'd like to do you think would 731 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: be most important to work on. 732 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: I guess one of the big principles I learned through 733 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: the orbects was this whole notion of like ownership and 734 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: responsibility and like living above the line constantly because it's 735 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: much more future based. It's a much happier place to 736 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 2: be and you're actually like you're generating things. And my 737 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 2: my fear in this country is often we tend to 738 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: go to blame really quickly and excuses. And that's what 739 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: I learned in high performance. You can't live in that 740 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 2: space like because you just don't perform. You've got to 741 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: constantly improve and constantly learn. So and the tall Poppy 742 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 2: syndrome just kills me in this country because it's not 743 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 2: until you go globally actually see how amazingly we good 744 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: we are both in business and sport. You know, to 745 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: be honest, and some of the the country of our size. 746 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: It's unbelievable what we do and even I look back 747 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: at all Black Legacy and go I don't think people 748 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 2: really appreciate fact that we only played the top ten 749 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 2: teams in the world every week. Yeah, you know, and 750 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: that's unreal. So yeah, that to me, it's it's more 751 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: an attitude, I think, like the more of a mindset 752 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 2: of how can we just own own our stuff and 753 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 2: let's let's just keep advancing because we've done so many 754 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 2: great things. 755 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it feels like sometimes New Zealand gets in 756 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: a good space and then sometimes it gets in a 757 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: quite a bad space. I mean, it's been a tough 758 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: few years, I guess. But yeah, when you when you 759 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 1: think about you know, that tall poppy thing. It's been 760 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: part of our culture for years. Phrase. Do you think 761 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 1: you know there is it just being a small population 762 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: being isolated you I. 763 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 2: Think so, And probably because we know someone that knows 764 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 2: someone you know and you know, the six degrees of separation. 765 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it probably comes from a place of like 766 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: wanting to feel ownership or passion. 767 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 2: Or skin in the game, you know. I think we 768 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 2: have a lot of that, But yeah, I just wish 769 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: we'd celebrate more, you know, just enjoy the moments. And 770 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: I'm talking to myself here because I didn't, and I 771 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 2: was so committed to the cause that often I'd miss 772 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: the fact that we're just held onto the bleedter though 773 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 2: for the seventeenth year, and I wouldn't take that moment, 774 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: you know, and consider all the work I've done. 775 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: And record at Eden Park. I mean there must I 776 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: don't know if there's any other team in the world. 777 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 2: As soon as it's taken, when you have those bad moments, 778 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 2: that's when you really feel like, oh man, I wish 779 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 2: i'd enjoyed that. So, yeah, that's probably the thing I 780 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: look at the most politically and go, I just wish 781 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: people would keep giving us hope and keep giving us 782 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: what the future could look like, so that we've got 783 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: something we can, you know, aspire to be sure. 784 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, just finally, then, can you just take us 785 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: back to what's on the agenda now and what the 786 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: plans are and how you plan to work this new 787 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 1: role with vanter Set. 788 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, so with Varner Set. So the founder. 789 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: Craig and I actually taught skiing together way back in Queenstown, 790 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 2: and I was always Craig had a sort of unique 791 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: perspective on things, which I really loved. And I got 792 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: into the all black role and I saw him some 793 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 2: of the writing he was saying about in some of 794 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: the ideas, and I was like, I really, I can 795 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: see what we're doing. I can see a connection there. 796 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: And again it went back to that whole principle of 797 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: how are we going to get everyone better, which is 798 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: something I found in sport was always about sandpapering. How 799 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: can we get it better? And how can we make 800 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: the whole team better? You know, not just it's not 801 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 2: just focus on the leadership or on the strategy, but 802 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,879 Speaker 2: let's focus on the whole group and build an environ 803 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 2: where everyone wants to because funny thing happens when you 804 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 2: get everyone on the same page, all the outcomes and 805 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 2: the measurements all will increased to And so Craig and 806 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 2: I've talked for a lot of years and I was 807 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: sort of familiar where it was going. And when he 808 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: got the idea of this platform, I was like, well, 809 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: is the way I can help you with that? You know? 810 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: Can I be an external advisor? Can I help with 811 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: program delivery and things like that? So that's the thing 812 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 2: excites me. We've talked a bit. At the moment it's 813 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 2: business focus, but we probably believe in time it could 814 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 2: be something that could work really well in professional sport 815 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, which would be something i'd really you know, 816 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,240 Speaker 2: take away. It takes away a lot of a clutter 817 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 2: and just gives it. I know in sport that structure 818 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: is really important and this just provides that, and it 819 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 2: gives people the tools right at their fingertips to just 820 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: improve every day, which I really love. 821 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: It's global ambassador, is that right? So it's a globally 822 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: focused business. 823 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think so, you know, whatever sector they 824 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: go into, I feel I can help contribute to the 825 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 2: overall program and the principles of it and provide, let's 826 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: I'm a p academic and an academic, you know, I 827 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 2: think provide really good practical examples of how those ideas, philosophies, 828 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 2: practices work and share examples with people so they can 829 00:36:57,880 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: sort of actually start to believe I actually, if I 830 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: do that, I'll at this. So that's the part that 831 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: excites me is and it was no different in rugby. 832 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 2: I loved I love watching the journey of a platform 833 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: when he started as a Rockie through to when he 834 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: finished and then the person he became after. And I 835 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 2: think that's the same and it's the same sort of 836 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 2: principle I can bring to to working with Craigan and 837 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 2: has people on that. 838 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: That's great. Look, I'm going to leave it there, but 839 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: thanks for talking to us now. 840 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 3: Hey, you very welcome. 841 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: Thank you is thanks for listening to this episode of 842 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: Money Talks. If you want to get in touch, drop 843 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: me a line at Liam dot Dan at inzme dot 844 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: co dot nz and you can read more from me 845 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: at inzidherld dot co dot nz. Thanks to my producer 846 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: Ethan Sils and sound engineer Liam McDonald. Follow Money Talks 847 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, with new 848 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: episodes available every Thursday.