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Speaker 1: Now there's trouble in paradise. The Cook Islands and China

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Speaker 1: are set to sign a major partnership deal one Winston

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Speaker 1: Peters and our government weren't aware of the details remain scarce,

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Speaker 1: but questions are emerging on whether constitutional arrangements have been breached.

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Speaker 1: And Robert Patman, professor of international relations at the University

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Speaker 1: of Otago, joins me, good morning, Good morning to him,

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Speaker 1: regardless of what the deal is in the arrangement with

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Speaker 1: China and the Cooks, what are the red flags that

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Speaker 1: it's flown thrown up for our government?

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Speaker 2: Well, under the terms of the Cook Islands Freedom Association,

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Speaker 2: we provide budgetary support and also assistance for defense and

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Speaker 2: security policy. And I think mister Peters, the Foreign Minister,

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Speaker 2: makes it a point that he felt that given that

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Speaker 2: this partnership with China does have potential security and foreign

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Speaker 2: policy implication, we hadn't been consulted as we should have been.

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Speaker 2: So remember Cook Islanders do have new zoom passports, so

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Speaker 2: this is a concern. But actually, to be fair, it's

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Speaker 2: public knowledge that the Cook Islands hosted the Chinese Vice

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Speaker 2: Foreign or Deputy Foreign Minister in December, and both sides

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Speaker 2: signaled that Prime Minister of the Cook Ions Mark Brown

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Speaker 2: could well visit China, make a state visit to China

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, and New Zeums should have been

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Speaker 2: aware of that. So in a sense, although we're we're

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Speaker 2: you know, I think museum's raised a fair point about

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Speaker 2: not enough transparency about the constitutional agents between the Cook

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Speaker 2: Irons and Muzine, whether they've been potentially breached. We can't

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Speaker 2: really say they came out of the blue because this

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Speaker 2: has been on the cast for some time.

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Speaker 1: How serious? Actually, now, let me rephrase that. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that Cook Islands takes its relationship I don't mean

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Speaker 1: the Cook Islands people in general, but they take out

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Speaker 1: the access to New Zealand, the relationship with US, for

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Speaker 1: granted a little bit with the dealings with China.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think they do. I think one thing

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Speaker 2: that New Zealand has got to get its head round

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Speaker 2: is the fact that the Trump administration has withdrawn from

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Speaker 2: the Paris Climate Accord. And this is a big deal

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Speaker 2: for most Pacific Island states and they every one security

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Speaker 2: concern and the Cook Islands is not print is the

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Speaker 2: threat of climate change. And when the administration indicated it

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Speaker 2: was withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, and that means

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Speaker 2: that it's not going to continue with the assistance that

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Speaker 2: we've begun in that area by the Biden administration, and

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Speaker 2: that means that Cook Island Nation may well be looking

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Speaker 2: for greater assistance elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Well, obviously China is not exactly the most green country

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Speaker 1: in the world. I'm talking about financial existence to try

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Speaker 1: and sort of mitigate the effects of that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Mark Brown talked about prosperity levels.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, the expression that came to mind was, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting into be with China for thirty pieces of silver?

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Speaker 1: Am I being too cynical?

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Speaker 2: No, But you know there's another way looking at it,

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Speaker 2: this from the Pacific Islands point of view. Look, I've

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Speaker 2: got no illusions about China. It's a dictatorship. It wants

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Speaker 2: to spread its influence where it can. But let's be

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Speaker 2: quite clear, and museum in Australia and the United States

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Speaker 2: have largely had the Pacific Island nations to themselves for

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Speaker 2: much of the post forty five period, and many of

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Speaker 2: those islands are living, you know, got considerable poverty. So

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Speaker 2: they're going to if you put this, if we put

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Speaker 2: ourselves in their shoes. They see US China competition as

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Speaker 2: an opportunity because they can maximize the amount of aid

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Speaker 2: they can get. And I think to some degree this

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Speaker 2: disagreement or mister Mark Brown, the cook Heims Prime Minister,

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Speaker 2: go to China and sign a comprehensive partnership agreement is

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Speaker 2: part and parcel of an attempt to maximize external support

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Speaker 2: for the Cook Ads.

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Speaker 1: If when Stonpeed's and our government become increasingly dissatisfied around

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Speaker 1: with the Cook Islands, what are the sort of consequences

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Speaker 1: that might flow from that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think someone who works for the Mister Peter's

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Speaker 2: office did say that Juzine has consistently made it clear

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Speaker 2: to the Cook Islands that any major changes to the

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Cook Island relationship, it would entail the Cook

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Speaker 2: Islands moving towards full independence from New Zealand, but that

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Speaker 2: must be decided by the Cook Islands people by a referendum.

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Speaker 2: In other words, if either party is dissatisfied, I think

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Speaker 2: New Zealand would prefer to keep the status quote because

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Speaker 2: it's worked quite well for us in the past. But

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Speaker 2: if the Cook Islands, remember the COOKI last year there

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Speaker 2: were revelations they were pushing for passports, and the Cook

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Speaker 2: Islands government was quite annoyed by the fact that became

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Speaker 2: public because they thought that was a confidential discussion. We argue,

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Speaker 2: quite reasonably, the New Zealand government argues, I should say

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Speaker 2: quite reasonably, I think that you can't have passports when

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Speaker 2: you're not an independent country, and so that's why I

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Speaker 2: think the museum position is quite consistent in that regard.

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Speaker 2: But I think, on the other hand, if New Zealand

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Speaker 2: becomes dissatisfied and it does not match the sort of

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Speaker 2: support that other countries are provided provide for Cook Islands,

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Speaker 2: that could lead to a demand for a referendum on

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Speaker 2: independence within the Cook Islands.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, thanks very much, Robert. I re appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,

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