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Speaker 1: The number of kiwis on welfare is up. It's climbed

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Speaker 1: by six and a half percent in the last year,

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Speaker 1: which means over four hundred thousand people and now on

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Speaker 1: a benefit. In this country, it's about twelve percent of

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Speaker 1: the working age population. Christine Rankin is the former boss

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Speaker 1: of WINS and with us mourning Christine.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Heather, Now Christine.

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Speaker 1: This is obviously expected during an economic downturn, but still

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Speaker 1: a staggering number, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Look it is a huge number, but it's not the

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Speaker 2: first time it's happened. Many times in history that numbers

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Speaker 2: have been around this, and it is inevitable that it's

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Speaker 2: going to reflect what's going on in the economy. But

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Speaker 2: what you've got to give this government credit for, and

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Speaker 2: this minister in particular, for putting in the reforms that

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Speaker 2: are in that system. No government for decades has done

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Speaker 2: anything as courageous as this. And to get eighty one

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Speaker 2: thousand people back into work is a big deal. It's

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Speaker 2: a big deal for the people who were left to

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Speaker 2: rot on there with the last government, and it's a

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Speaker 2: big deal for the tax So while there are huge numbers,

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Speaker 2: they are I'm not sure if they're being cycled through,

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Speaker 2: but I suspect they're going into jobs and they're not

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Speaker 2: lasting very long for some of them, and they're going

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Speaker 2: back on benefit again. But I'm afraid that's part of

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Speaker 2: a process that is desperately needed and has been for years.

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Speaker 2: So the numbers are inevitable. I don't see how that,

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Speaker 2: with an economy as we have it at the moment,

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Speaker 2: it can be any other way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just on the doll which is the job

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Speaker 1: seeker support that's up ten percent in the year. That

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Speaker 1: must represent quite a lot of new people going on

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Speaker 1: the doll.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have thought so. And look, it will

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Speaker 2: affect young people more than anyone else. They're the hardest

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Speaker 2: ones to place. But the system they now have to

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Speaker 2: go through shows and actually, what if it needs to

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Speaker 2: be put into work and it's a damn god experience

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Speaker 2: for the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 1: Look, I want to ask you what I'm fascinated by

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the UK with welfare at the moment,

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Speaker 1: in the welfare shakeup, and particularly the fact that it's

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Speaker 1: coming from a labor government. Is this just populism that

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Speaker 1: pops up from time to time. Where is this actually

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Speaker 1: developed world countries realizing that that welfare at the rates

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Speaker 1: that we paid is unsustainable.

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Speaker 2: I believe it's the second part of that. This has

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Speaker 2: been ridiculous for a long time and people think it's

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Speaker 2: an entitlement. It is not. It's a right and welfare

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand is one of the most generous in

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Speaker 2: the world and we do need to take a big

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Speaker 2: look at it. Yes we've got social problems, but it

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Speaker 2: started out being there for people in desperate need. Now

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Speaker 2: it's there for everyone and anyone. And until this minister

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Speaker 2: came along, there were no expectations for you to do

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Speaker 2: anything at all but sit there for as long as

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Speaker 2: you like and do whatever you like.

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Speaker 1: Good to talk to you, Christine always as Christine Rank

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Speaker 1: and former Wins boss. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks that'd be from six am weekdays,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.