1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,933 Speaker 1: this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:20,293 Speaker 2: Andy Tuki. He set up Live Sharers and also Give 4 00:00:20,332 --> 00:00:23,892 Speaker 2: Life Organization to help increase New Zealand's organ donation rate, 5 00:00:23,933 --> 00:00:27,013 Speaker 2: which remains among the lowest in the western world. He 6 00:00:27,133 --> 00:00:31,452 Speaker 2: spent two decades campaigning to increase that donation rate and 7 00:00:31,533 --> 00:00:33,933 Speaker 2: currently there's around four to five hundred people waiting on 8 00:00:34,093 --> 00:00:38,413 Speaker 2: a compatible organ. Andy Tukey joins us on the line. Now, Andy, 9 00:00:38,493 --> 00:00:39,333 Speaker 2: very good afternoon to you. 10 00:00:40,373 --> 00:00:42,693 Speaker 3: Hello, thanks yep, Andy. 11 00:00:42,812 --> 00:00:46,452 Speaker 4: How often do potential organ donations fall over because you know, 12 00:00:46,533 --> 00:00:49,693 Speaker 4: families aren't sure of their loved one's wishes. 13 00:00:51,693 --> 00:00:56,333 Speaker 3: Well, the last time I checked, about sixty percent of 14 00:00:56,413 --> 00:01:01,572 Speaker 3: people of families say no to organ donation. Wow. An 15 00:01:01,613 --> 00:01:06,533 Speaker 3: awful that's an awful lot of people. Yeah, and there's 16 00:01:06,533 --> 00:01:11,573 Speaker 3: been many reasons for that, but yes, that's one of 17 00:01:11,613 --> 00:01:14,773 Speaker 3: the areas of trying to work on was trying to 18 00:01:14,813 --> 00:01:18,372 Speaker 3: get that rate down because when six out of ten 19 00:01:18,413 --> 00:01:21,613 Speaker 3: families are saying no the donation, they're losing a lot 20 00:01:21,253 --> 00:01:23,053 Speaker 3: of lives unnecessarily. 21 00:01:23,693 --> 00:01:26,653 Speaker 4: So if you like me, I have on my license, 22 00:01:26,893 --> 00:01:28,773 Speaker 4: then I'm a donor, and I kind of thought that 23 00:01:28,853 --> 00:01:30,652 Speaker 4: just meant I was a donor then, but you know, 24 00:01:30,813 --> 00:01:32,693 Speaker 4: obviously I've looked into it more now and found out 25 00:01:32,693 --> 00:01:35,932 Speaker 4: that my family would to get involved. So if you 26 00:01:36,013 --> 00:01:40,413 Speaker 4: have click donor, is it then a good idea to 27 00:01:40,453 --> 00:01:42,053 Speaker 4: go around and talk to your family members and the 28 00:01:42,093 --> 00:01:46,373 Speaker 4: people that decide and actually describe what you want to happen, 29 00:01:46,453 --> 00:01:48,973 Speaker 4: because because it's very easy to click as donor, but 30 00:01:49,013 --> 00:01:51,213 Speaker 4: you might not have thought about it much. But is 31 00:01:51,253 --> 00:01:52,333 Speaker 4: that something that could help? 32 00:01:53,413 --> 00:01:56,892 Speaker 3: Well, this is actually one of the first issues I discovered. 33 00:01:57,213 --> 00:02:00,733 Speaker 3: I mean, my history on this, why I started this 34 00:02:00,933 --> 00:02:04,453 Speaker 3: was when my daughter was born. They discovered she had 35 00:02:04,453 --> 00:02:07,453 Speaker 3: a liver disease and they said she would die by 36 00:02:07,533 --> 00:02:12,933 Speaker 3: age one if she didn't get a new liver. And 37 00:02:13,573 --> 00:02:16,173 Speaker 3: she was in hospital a long time, and we talked 38 00:02:16,213 --> 00:02:19,573 Speaker 3: to families whose children would die because they had cancer 39 00:02:19,653 --> 00:02:24,173 Speaker 3: and stuff like that. But I thought, my daughter, there's 40 00:02:24,173 --> 00:02:26,933 Speaker 3: a cure, one hundred percent cure, and it's been very 41 00:02:27,053 --> 00:02:31,453 Speaker 3: incremated every day, and why the organ donorates so low? 42 00:02:31,853 --> 00:02:37,013 Speaker 3: So then I started investigating Official Information Act requests and 43 00:02:37,093 --> 00:02:39,173 Speaker 3: I'll tell you what, over the years, I've opened some 44 00:02:39,453 --> 00:02:43,053 Speaker 3: huge cans of worms on it the failings of the system. 45 00:02:43,813 --> 00:02:46,933 Speaker 3: But you know, one of the things which the public 46 00:02:47,013 --> 00:02:49,653 Speaker 3: did not know at the time, which I think through 47 00:02:49,773 --> 00:02:55,572 Speaker 3: my constant media appearances, the public mostly known these days 48 00:02:55,733 --> 00:02:58,653 Speaker 3: that yes, put me on your driving license means absolutely 49 00:02:58,693 --> 00:03:03,533 Speaker 3: nothing because they will not even check the license if 50 00:03:03,573 --> 00:03:07,132 Speaker 3: you're involved, say in a car crash, right because it's 51 00:03:07,213 --> 00:03:13,773 Speaker 3: not deemed to be consent. It's not because you could 52 00:03:13,773 --> 00:03:18,573 Speaker 3: have ticked that box years ago, so it's not consent. 53 00:03:18,733 --> 00:03:21,692 Speaker 3: Is really an ongoing thing. What I tried to do 54 00:03:21,813 --> 00:03:24,733 Speaker 3: is to get them to change it so it's not 55 00:03:24,933 --> 00:03:28,613 Speaker 3: on a driving license as such, but so you could 56 00:03:28,613 --> 00:03:31,573 Speaker 3: do it online. So you could go online and you 57 00:03:31,573 --> 00:03:33,733 Speaker 3: could change your wishes as often as you like. It 58 00:03:33,813 --> 00:03:39,253 Speaker 3: costs you nothing, and then it would be updated, you know, 59 00:03:39,333 --> 00:03:41,613 Speaker 3: in the health system, they would know automatically what your 60 00:03:41,653 --> 00:03:44,173 Speaker 3: wishes are. Because if you change your mind on your 61 00:03:44,253 --> 00:03:46,693 Speaker 3: driving license and you've got to pay forty odd dollars 62 00:03:46,893 --> 00:03:50,893 Speaker 3: to get it changed, people aren't going to do that. 63 00:03:51,773 --> 00:03:54,253 Speaker 3: And so that was the main issue I believe was 64 00:03:54,293 --> 00:03:58,013 Speaker 3: public awareness. The public needs to know these things. There 65 00:03:58,133 --> 00:04:00,693 Speaker 3: is another thing why I say six out of ten 66 00:04:01,453 --> 00:04:05,973 Speaker 3: families say no, is because you know ten family members 67 00:04:06,293 --> 00:04:10,413 Speaker 3: could be around your deathbed and nine of them agree 68 00:04:10,453 --> 00:04:14,373 Speaker 3: to organ donation. If one person says no, that one 69 00:04:14,453 --> 00:04:16,373 Speaker 3: no trumps all of nine yearses. 70 00:04:16,733 --> 00:04:20,693 Speaker 4: Wow. Wow, I did not know that. That is interesting. 71 00:04:20,733 --> 00:04:22,453 Speaker 4: So when you say when you say having on your 72 00:04:22,493 --> 00:04:26,693 Speaker 4: license means nothing, when is the conversation brought up for 73 00:04:27,253 --> 00:04:29,333 Speaker 4: family members to have their say on it? Is that 74 00:04:29,573 --> 00:04:34,493 Speaker 4: brought up as a standard conversation, you know, by medical professionals, 75 00:04:34,653 --> 00:04:37,693 Speaker 4: or is it brought up if your status is yes? 76 00:04:38,773 --> 00:04:39,613 Speaker 4: Or how does that work? 77 00:04:40,693 --> 00:04:40,893 Speaker 1: Yeah? 78 00:04:41,093 --> 00:04:45,813 Speaker 3: What they prefer to do. Yeah, But the time it's 79 00:04:45,853 --> 00:04:50,893 Speaker 3: brought up organ donation is when that person is basically 80 00:04:50,933 --> 00:04:54,653 Speaker 3: brain dead. Now, this is why a lot of people, 81 00:04:55,333 --> 00:04:57,773 Speaker 3: well a lot of family would say no to organ donation. 82 00:04:58,413 --> 00:05:03,773 Speaker 3: For example, you've just been told your son has died, 83 00:05:05,013 --> 00:05:07,693 Speaker 3: but by the way, can we have his organs? That's 84 00:05:07,853 --> 00:05:11,693 Speaker 3: not the best time to be asking, you know, it 85 00:05:11,773 --> 00:05:13,813 Speaker 3: needs to be done way ahead. This is why it 86 00:05:13,893 --> 00:05:16,733 Speaker 3: needs to be more public awareness about it to encourage 87 00:05:16,733 --> 00:05:19,293 Speaker 3: families to discuss the issues. 88 00:05:21,253 --> 00:05:24,453 Speaker 2: This is good information. Andy. Now may mentioned this earlier 89 00:05:24,493 --> 00:05:25,893 Speaker 2: and crreick me if I'm wrong, but I think this 90 00:05:26,053 --> 00:05:29,653 Speaker 2: was something you campaigned on, so it was register that 91 00:05:29,733 --> 00:05:33,133 Speaker 2: if you are a donor yourself and at some point 92 00:05:33,573 --> 00:05:35,973 Speaker 2: you need an organ you would go to the top 93 00:05:36,013 --> 00:05:36,453 Speaker 2: of the list. 94 00:05:38,093 --> 00:05:43,093 Speaker 3: Yes, I did. That was part of my because there's 95 00:05:43,173 --> 00:05:45,893 Speaker 3: the two types of organ donation, you had to change 96 00:05:45,933 --> 00:05:48,213 Speaker 3: a lot in that system. But I also wanted to 97 00:05:48,293 --> 00:05:53,773 Speaker 3: change the live donors situation because the live donors back 98 00:05:53,813 --> 00:05:58,213 Speaker 3: at the time say, for example, your sister needed a 99 00:05:58,293 --> 00:06:00,453 Speaker 3: kidney and you were happy to donate one, but you 100 00:06:00,533 --> 00:06:02,893 Speaker 3: still got to pay your mortgage, your bills and everything, 101 00:06:03,173 --> 00:06:05,453 Speaker 3: and you don't get any pay All you were getting 102 00:06:05,733 --> 00:06:08,813 Speaker 3: was you have to go to Winds and beg for 103 00:06:08,893 --> 00:06:12,213 Speaker 3: some benefit money, and so you'd have to say no, 104 00:06:12,373 --> 00:06:15,533 Speaker 3: I can't afford to do this financially. So eventually I 105 00:06:15,613 --> 00:06:20,093 Speaker 3: got through Parliament well, with the help of MPs, I 106 00:06:20,173 --> 00:06:24,773 Speaker 3: got through that. They now get one hundred percent compensation 107 00:06:25,453 --> 00:06:29,293 Speaker 3: which helps the financial side of things. And I also 108 00:06:29,413 --> 00:06:33,293 Speaker 3: I did campaign, but I didn't get on if you 109 00:06:33,413 --> 00:06:37,173 Speaker 3: donate a kidney, then you should be moved to the 110 00:06:37,293 --> 00:06:40,133 Speaker 3: top of the waiting list should you ever require one. 111 00:06:40,893 --> 00:06:42,413 Speaker 2: It would have been a good way to raise the 112 00:06:42,453 --> 00:06:45,733 Speaker 2: donation levels. You know that makes sense to me, right, Yeah, 113 00:06:45,813 --> 00:06:47,853 Speaker 2: it's a word wind that if you, out of the 114 00:06:47,853 --> 00:06:49,973 Speaker 2: goodness of your heart, decide when someone needs a kidney 115 00:06:50,053 --> 00:06:52,413 Speaker 2: to donate it and you get into trouble, then you're 116 00:06:52,493 --> 00:06:54,733 Speaker 2: right at the top of the list. How's the list 117 00:06:54,853 --> 00:06:58,693 Speaker 2: worked out now, Andy. 118 00:06:57,973 --> 00:07:01,293 Speaker 3: Well, it's on a combination of things. You know, it's 119 00:07:01,333 --> 00:07:06,013 Speaker 3: on time at the time and need an urgency really 120 00:07:06,333 --> 00:07:10,013 Speaker 3: and what they've got compatible I suppose you know it's 121 00:07:10,213 --> 00:07:11,933 Speaker 3: I think each case would be different. I think they've 122 00:07:11,933 --> 00:07:15,373 Speaker 3: got a lot of vorisms that they use, but specifically 123 00:07:15,453 --> 00:07:17,133 Speaker 3: I don't know what they are. These days. 124 00:07:17,733 --> 00:07:20,133 Speaker 2: We are speaking to Andy Tuky. He set up Life 125 00:07:20,173 --> 00:07:24,613 Speaker 2: Sharers and also Give Life organization. He's been campaigning or 126 00:07:24,773 --> 00:07:27,093 Speaker 2: was campaigning for the for twenty years to try and 127 00:07:27,173 --> 00:07:29,613 Speaker 2: up our donation rates and he's back with us. Andy, 128 00:07:29,613 --> 00:07:30,733 Speaker 2: think you again for your time. 129 00:07:31,653 --> 00:07:32,893 Speaker 3: That's great help problems? 130 00:07:32,933 --> 00:07:35,293 Speaker 4: Yea, hey Andy, what what do you think the biggest 131 00:07:35,333 --> 00:07:41,253 Speaker 4: misunderstandings are around donations in this in New Zealand. The 132 00:07:41,293 --> 00:07:42,813 Speaker 4: myths and misunderstandings. 133 00:07:43,653 --> 00:07:50,813 Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of myths, I guess both misunderstandings. 134 00:07:50,813 --> 00:07:54,613 Speaker 3: But a lot of people won't put a donor on 135 00:07:54,693 --> 00:07:57,333 Speaker 3: their license or they said I don't want to be 136 00:07:57,373 --> 00:08:01,733 Speaker 3: a donor because they've got a medical condition, so they 137 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:06,853 Speaker 3: don't think they'd be suitable, right, and everybody should put 138 00:08:06,893 --> 00:08:09,413 Speaker 3: it on there because the doctors would decide the time. 139 00:08:09,773 --> 00:08:11,693 Speaker 3: I mean because just because you've got to I don't know, 140 00:08:11,853 --> 00:08:15,173 Speaker 3: in growing toenails doesn't mean you can't donate a kidney. 141 00:08:16,493 --> 00:08:19,733 Speaker 3: And so a lot of people think they don't. They 142 00:08:19,773 --> 00:08:23,093 Speaker 3: think that like smokers think they can't be donors, but 143 00:08:23,133 --> 00:08:27,453 Speaker 3: they can be. So yeah, so they should just put 144 00:08:27,493 --> 00:08:29,413 Speaker 3: donor and then they would check you at the time 145 00:08:29,453 --> 00:08:31,213 Speaker 3: and they would get superb you are if you're not, 146 00:08:31,293 --> 00:08:34,492 Speaker 3: you're not, So yeah, the best way to go and 147 00:08:34,693 --> 00:08:36,893 Speaker 3: is you know a lot of myths that you know, 148 00:08:36,973 --> 00:08:39,893 Speaker 3: people believe that you're you're not actually dead when you 149 00:08:39,933 --> 00:08:44,892 Speaker 3: donate your organs. You are, you're you know your you're 150 00:08:44,933 --> 00:08:50,213 Speaker 3: brain dead, You're not in a coma. You're definitely dead dead. 151 00:08:50,653 --> 00:08:53,693 Speaker 3: So so you get all these things and most of 152 00:08:53,732 --> 00:08:57,732 Speaker 3: you get it off. I don't know, bad TV programs 153 00:08:57,852 --> 00:09:01,373 Speaker 3: or horror movies and stuff, but never any way to 154 00:09:01,453 --> 00:09:04,773 Speaker 3: correct it. This is why there needs to be more awareness. 155 00:09:04,773 --> 00:09:07,253 Speaker 3: It needs to be more from the government really to 156 00:09:07,252 --> 00:09:10,773 Speaker 3: push us in other countries. You say there's TV commercials 157 00:09:11,132 --> 00:09:13,933 Speaker 3: all the time. I remember back in the UK they 158 00:09:13,973 --> 00:09:18,213 Speaker 3: would promote it on TV commercials constantly, you know, as 159 00:09:18,213 --> 00:09:21,213 Speaker 3: they did with putting seat belts on and things like that. 160 00:09:21,293 --> 00:09:24,093 Speaker 3: It was quite common and so you know, get people 161 00:09:24,132 --> 00:09:26,213 Speaker 3: in that frame of mind to talk about it with 162 00:09:26,252 --> 00:09:26,773 Speaker 3: their family. 163 00:09:28,653 --> 00:09:33,013 Speaker 4: So obviously we need to increase the donation rate. Do 164 00:09:33,012 --> 00:09:36,132 Speaker 4: you think they're advertising or is there more legal changes 165 00:09:36,492 --> 00:09:40,933 Speaker 4: or the way donations dealt with clinically that would increase 166 00:09:41,293 --> 00:09:43,813 Speaker 4: New Zealand's organization organ donation? 167 00:09:43,933 --> 00:09:44,053 Speaker 3: Right? 168 00:09:44,132 --> 00:09:47,053 Speaker 4: What do you think the biggest improvements we could make 169 00:09:47,413 --> 00:09:48,293 Speaker 4: to make that happen? 170 00:09:48,413 --> 00:09:53,652 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think my main one is the public awareness basically, 171 00:09:53,813 --> 00:09:58,813 Speaker 3: stop that six in ten people saying no. It should 172 00:09:58,852 --> 00:10:01,293 Speaker 3: be which I pushed for as well. It should be 173 00:10:01,653 --> 00:10:05,653 Speaker 3: mandatory training for doctors in IC you I see, you 174 00:10:05,813 --> 00:10:10,813 Speaker 3: to have training in organ donation and how to approach families. 175 00:10:11,132 --> 00:10:13,412 Speaker 3: They have a thing called linked nurses that do that now, 176 00:10:13,453 --> 00:10:16,932 Speaker 3: so they are improving in some areas. But this is 177 00:10:18,053 --> 00:10:21,213 Speaker 3: legal wise. Well, I did try and push for the 178 00:10:21,252 --> 00:10:24,412 Speaker 3: opt out system, you know, where you're presumed to be 179 00:10:24,492 --> 00:10:30,493 Speaker 3: an organ downer as as opposed to the opting in 180 00:10:30,612 --> 00:10:32,933 Speaker 3: now you'd have to kind of opt out, right, Yes, 181 00:10:34,293 --> 00:10:37,293 Speaker 3: as all of the UK does now many country does. 182 00:10:37,933 --> 00:10:41,013 Speaker 3: And yeah, they're still a lot keen on doing that here. 183 00:10:41,492 --> 00:10:44,973 Speaker 3: And in fact the Select Committee, which I appeared at 184 00:10:45,012 --> 00:10:49,133 Speaker 3: many times, the organ donor doctors said if we did, 185 00:10:50,413 --> 00:10:53,132 Speaker 3: if you did that, we wouldn't take the organs anyway. 186 00:10:53,973 --> 00:10:57,453 Speaker 2: So don't know why. 187 00:10:56,653 --> 00:10:57,973 Speaker 3: They justus very against it. 188 00:11:00,213 --> 00:11:01,732 Speaker 4: I mean they're not saving lives. 189 00:11:03,333 --> 00:11:08,093 Speaker 3: No, Well, certainly the ICU doctors I was dealing with 190 00:11:08,132 --> 00:11:13,492 Speaker 3: at the time with totally upfront blackmail the Select Committee, 191 00:11:13,573 --> 00:11:15,573 Speaker 3: they just said you can change the law and we 192 00:11:15,612 --> 00:11:17,333 Speaker 3: will not follow it. 193 00:11:17,573 --> 00:11:20,813 Speaker 2: Very odd. So for something like you know that you 194 00:11:20,852 --> 00:11:23,533 Speaker 2: cannot doubt if for that is it is so personal 195 00:11:23,573 --> 00:11:25,492 Speaker 2: to you, that's fine, But to have it as a 196 00:11:25,533 --> 00:11:28,612 Speaker 2: not done by default, I just don't see why there'd 197 00:11:28,612 --> 00:11:29,173 Speaker 2: be opposition. 198 00:11:30,333 --> 00:11:32,733 Speaker 4: Yeah, and and how has it worked out in the 199 00:11:32,732 --> 00:11:36,013 Speaker 4: countries where it has been introduced in recent years. 200 00:11:36,093 --> 00:11:38,852 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you do get some people who are against 201 00:11:38,892 --> 00:11:41,732 Speaker 3: that sort of compulsion and they opt out, but overall 202 00:11:42,053 --> 00:11:45,173 Speaker 3: much better rates yea. 203 00:11:47,173 --> 00:11:50,453 Speaker 2: And yeah, no, it's been really great to chat with 204 00:11:50,492 --> 00:11:52,893 Speaker 2: you on this end. Just the final question you mentioned 205 00:11:52,973 --> 00:11:55,932 Speaker 2: what spooned you on this journey was your daughter Katie. 206 00:11:56,492 --> 00:11:58,132 Speaker 2: How did that that journey go for her. 207 00:11:59,933 --> 00:12:04,892 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, when I said she would need one live 208 00:12:05,012 --> 00:12:07,453 Speaker 3: a new liver, it's not like the kidney. We've got 209 00:12:07,453 --> 00:12:10,652 Speaker 3: two of them. She would need a new liver by 210 00:12:10,693 --> 00:12:15,373 Speaker 3: age one. Well, she did not get her transplant. And 211 00:12:17,372 --> 00:12:19,732 Speaker 3: believe it or not, she's now twenty three and she 212 00:12:19,773 --> 00:12:23,813 Speaker 3: still hasn't had her transplant. Wow, she's in good health. 213 00:12:23,933 --> 00:12:27,613 Speaker 3: She is monitored regularly. And I also discover she is 214 00:12:27,732 --> 00:12:32,733 Speaker 3: now the oldest living person in New Zealand with that 215 00:12:32,852 --> 00:12:36,252 Speaker 3: liver disease who hasn't had a transplant. So of course 216 00:12:36,533 --> 00:12:37,373 Speaker 3: I'm pretty happy. 217 00:12:38,573 --> 00:12:42,453 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean incredible that she's managed to fire the odds. 218 00:12:42,453 --> 00:12:44,732 Speaker 2: So she's still on the wait list, Andy is there? 219 00:12:47,852 --> 00:12:51,492 Speaker 3: Well they know. This is how they mess the figures 220 00:12:51,573 --> 00:12:54,853 Speaker 3: up a bit, is they don't put you on the 221 00:12:54,892 --> 00:12:58,372 Speaker 3: waiting list for an augan donation until you're desperate for it, 222 00:12:59,053 --> 00:13:01,973 Speaker 3: and then usually you're too by that stage, you're too 223 00:13:02,053 --> 00:13:05,012 Speaker 3: sick to receive an organ donation. So that's why many 224 00:13:05,053 --> 00:13:07,253 Speaker 3: people die waiting. Yeah. 225 00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:09,853 Speaker 2: Andy, think you've very much for your time this afternoon 226 00:13:09,892 --> 00:13:12,533 Speaker 2: and having a chat with us, and and well done 227 00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:14,492 Speaker 2: for the changes you have made. But it seems there's 228 00:13:14,492 --> 00:13:15,293 Speaker 2: still some way to go. 229 00:13:15,413 --> 00:13:16,933 Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks so much for the work you've done over 230 00:13:16,933 --> 00:13:18,573 Speaker 4: the years on the on the in this space, Andy, 231 00:13:18,612 --> 00:13:19,293 Speaker 4: it's fantastic. 232 00:13:19,492 --> 00:13:20,573 Speaker 3: Yeah, great. Thank you. 233 00:13:20,852 --> 00:13:23,453 Speaker 2: That is Andy Tuk who's been a campaigner to raise 234 00:13:23,453 --> 00:13:25,933 Speaker 2: our donation rates for a couple of decades. 235 00:13:26,653 --> 00:13:29,293 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on 236 00:13:29,372 --> 00:13:32,333 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 237 00:13:32,372 --> 00:13:34,973 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.