1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,600 Speaker 1: So how about the call for the Labour Party not 2 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: to front for the COVID inquiry from just Cindra Don 3 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: to Chrishipkins, Grant Robertson, Nation Beryl. No one is willing 4 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: to show up publicly. So next week's hearings are off. 5 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: Chris Hipkins is with us. Good morning, Good morning mate. 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Do you realize how shocking this looks? 7 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: What's that, Mike? 8 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: You not turning out? 9 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: Well? I have turned up. I've turned up to the 10 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: Royal Commission twice. I was interviewed by the first Royal Commission. 11 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: I was interviewed by the Second Royal Commission, and when 12 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: they sent through written questions, I gave them about twenty 13 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: pages of answers. As the Royal Commission themselves said yesterday, 14 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: I've answered every question that they've asked. They're given them 15 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: every piece of information that they've asked for. 16 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: My apologies. You're not turning up in public well, I. 17 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: Mean the Royal Commission themselves have said that they're not 18 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: holding any further public hearings. They've set out a variety 19 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: of reasons for their and one of the things that 20 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 2: they said in their minute of the decision that they 21 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: took not told through the public hearings was that the ministers, 22 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: the former ministers concerned, have answered every question that's been 23 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: put to them. 24 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: Right, So is it on Ellingworth or is it on 25 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: you to be the better person? 26 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, ultimately the Royal Commission made this decision themselves. 27 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: But you know, let's be clear. I've appeared before them, 28 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: I gave them. They asked me to be available for 29 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 2: two hours of interviews, which I did and then they 30 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: ran out of questions after about it at the time. 31 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: But they may be inconfident. I don't know because I've 32 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: not seen it and I've not seen you either. That's 33 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: the whole point of this. People would like you to 34 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: be seen, to be held to some level of account. 35 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: Is there something wrong with that? 36 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: Well, Mike, you've got the highest rating breakfast show in 37 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: New Zealand and here I am answering your questions. If 38 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: you've got questions about the COVID response, fire away. 39 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: But if it's the mic Hosking Breakfast COVID inquiry, that's fine, 40 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: but it isn't. There's a Royal Commission set up or 41 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: a COVID inquiry set up in this country to get 42 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: to the bottom of one of the most important events 43 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: in this country's history and you don't even want to 44 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: front publicly. But I've ever said no, no, no, I 45 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: know what you've said. But you're not fronting publicly. You're 46 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: actively avoiding fronting publicly. 47 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: Well I'm here now. I mean, it's great that you've 48 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: invited me on for the second time this year, you know, 49 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 2: and every day I appear before the media and I 50 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: answer questions and people can ask you what if they 51 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 2: love it? 52 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: But that's an acceptable excuse, Chris, Then we don't need 53 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: an inquiry. Is that what you're saying, We don't need 54 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: an inquiry just all turn up on the media. 55 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: Well, I mean the first Royal Commission, I think answered 56 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: all of the questions on COVID very well. That was 57 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: quite critical of the previous government. They indicated things that 58 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: we thought we had we could have done better. And 59 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: it's difficult to know what the second Royal Commission is 60 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: going to say different to that. But I mean, let's 61 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: let's wait and see what they come. 62 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: But is that part is that part of your problem, 63 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: part of the problem that you called it a stitch up? 64 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: This is the part two you think is for conspiracy. 65 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: Theorists well, I mean the second Royal Commission themselves have 66 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: said that we've answered every single question that they've put 67 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: to them and they have no further information that they 68 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: wanted to ask. When they said that they wanted to 69 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: do the hearing again to basically repeat the episodes, they 70 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: said that there's an exactly the same questions and that 71 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: there wasn't any further information. 72 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: They I mean, so you don't you don't well, you 73 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: don't see the optics of it. 74 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: Well, I mean if I said, the Royal Commission themselves 75 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: have said that we've out frequently, but I. 76 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: Don't know what those questions are. I don't know where 77 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: the illing wurst worth worth of pinchers salt. I wouldn't 78 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: have a clue because no one can see it. 79 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: But all of that is there's going to be publican but. 80 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: It's not at the moment, and there's no point. There's 81 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: no point saying it'll be made public and then with 82 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: the benefit of hindsight we can go, hold on, they 83 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: didn't ask this, and you didn't say this, and we 84 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't mind another go why can't we just see it away? 85 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: You know, the British system, for example, you get to 86 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: see what's going on publicly elected officials get to be 87 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: held to account publicly. 88 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: Well, that's not been New Zealand's past practice. So no 89 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: Royal Commission has either held public hearings involving ministers before 90 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: following the christ Church earthquake, for example, following the terrorists 91 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: tech in christ Church. The practice the current Royal Commissioner 92 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: following is the practice every Royal Commission in New Zealand's histor. 93 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: Right, So you you agree with the idea that you 94 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: shouldn't be held to account publicly? This is this is 95 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: a good way of conducting business and people should just 96 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: accept that as it is. 97 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: I'm held to account publicly every day. 98 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: Mike, No, but not in the sense of the specific commission. 99 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: Should Ellingworth call you? Because I understand he's got the 100 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: power to do. 101 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: So, But that's that's a question, not a question to. 102 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: Be I know, should he What would your advise to 103 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: him be? 104 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: Well, give royal commissions advice. I answer their questions and 105 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 2: that's executly what I've done. 106 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: Okay, did you coalesce with Robertson in Verel and a 107 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: Deern to make this sort of a collective decision? 108 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 2: We had representatives in common who corresponded with the Royal Commission. 109 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: But each of us individually briefed that representative. 110 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: Who's the representative. 111 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: Well at the moment that's been Dentons. 112 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: Who of the company? 113 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: You mean, yes, that is great. 114 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So they advi ased you not to appear or 115 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: you advised them that you wouldn't be appearing. 116 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: Well, see again, you're mischaracterizing it said. 117 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: It was question no appearing publicly, just just for future reference, 118 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: for the future, for the rest of the questions in 119 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: this interview, I'm referring to you appearing publicly. Right, So 120 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: was it Denton's who advised you not to appear publicly 121 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: or did you advise them? 122 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: Well, the thing is you're misrepresenting my position, Mike, I 123 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: have appeared before the Commission. 124 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: You have not appeared publicly before the Commission. 125 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: Well, I have. I have answered all of the Commission. 126 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I've said you have not appeared 127 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: publicly before the Commission. Did they advise you not to 128 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: appear publicly Denton's. 129 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: I indicated to the Commission that I. 130 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: Did Denton's. Dent Did Denton's advise you not to appear publicly? 131 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that Denton's did raise well us. 132 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: They raised several issues. One was that you know, no 133 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: ministers had previously done this, and that it would create 134 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 2: a precedent if we did so. The second thing they 135 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: raised was concerned about the fact that people who had 136 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 2: already appeared publicly before the Royal Commission had been the 137 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: subject of significant abuse, and that is concerned that the 138 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: Commission themselves, the Royal Commission themselves have acknowledged and the 139 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: decision that they took yesterday. 140 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: So the spin doctors told you not to appear publicly 141 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: and you went, thanks very much, I'll take that advice. 142 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: No, I don't think that's correct. 143 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: Well, it's just what you explained to me. You said 144 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: that there were troubles with people appearing and that appeared 145 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: to be up your alley, and you said, as a 146 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: result of that, now I won't be appearing publicly. 147 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: Well that's your spin on, don't I. 148 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: Well, is it their spin and their advice to you? 149 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: Well, I I just set out what their advice to 150 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: be was, so. 151 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: That well, just for the record, their advice appeared to 152 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: be that if you appear publicly it might not go 153 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: well for you. 154 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: No, that's not what that's not the advice. I mean, 155 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: there's part of the advice that I can't comment on. 156 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 1: But who's for Dents? Because who's paying for dentates the 157 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: public right, So why can't you comment. 158 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: Well, because then I would be here before a court. 159 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: Why because when the court issues a suppression order that 160 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: says you can't talk about something, you can't talk about it. 161 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: So who's issued the suppression order? Do you have an 162 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: agreement with Dentons that you don't talk publicly about what 163 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: they tell you? 164 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,239 Speaker 2: There are issues relating to the safety of individuals around 165 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: the COVID nineteen response and public commentary on it that 166 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: the courts have indicated I cannot comment on, or anyone 167 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: including you cannot comment on, and therefore we can't comment 168 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: on them. 169 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: So even though we're paying for the spin doctors, and 170 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: the spin doctors are telling you not to appear publicly, 171 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: you sit here this morning in front of the biggest 172 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: radio audience in this country, the same audience you will 173 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: go to next year in an election campaign, and go 174 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: nothing to see here. I've done my job well. 175 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: You haven't asked me many questions. As I said, feel 176 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 2: free every day. I'm available to answer any questions on 177 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: any matter of the COVID response. And you've chosen not 178 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: to ask me any but you're welcome to at any point. 179 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: Does Jacindra Dune deserve to answer some questions to the 180 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: public as well? 181 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a question for her. 182 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: She doesn't talk to you, She doesn't talk to New 183 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: Zealand media anymore, apart from when she's promoting a book. 184 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: So as a person who knows her well, does should 185 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: she be answering questions? 186 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: Not to be fear Mike, I don't think she's spoken 187 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: to you quite some time. No, I, but those are 188 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 2: questions for her, not for me. 189 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: All right, Listen, I got to go Chris Hopkins, Denton's 190 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: and lawyers by the way, just to clear that up 191 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: as opposed to spend doctors, although lawyers of course, as 192 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: we I think, no, can't be spent doctors, but just 193 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: to make that clear. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, 194 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: listen live to news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, 195 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.