1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Now a report Ricken's benefit sanctions are not working. Infametrix 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: has done a report saying it's largely because there aren't 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: enough jobs for beneficiaries to move into, and the economist 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Rob hases with us. Now, Hi Rob, Hi, Heather, So 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: what is it that you looked at to make this call? 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: Oh, we've just looked at the number of job seekers 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: support recipients and how that's changed over time, and then 8 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: did some delving into some of the research that's been 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: done either in New Zealand or overseas into how sanctions 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: actually affect beneficiary behavior. 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Okay, and can you have you got access to did 12 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: you have access to churn like how many beneficiaries are 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: coming in and leaving the system? 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: No, that's the kind of information that I'd want to 15 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: get my hands on. Rely on the benefit fact sheets 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 2: that are published by MSD. And what you really want 17 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: to get into, as you say, is that churn information 18 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: being able to pick up beneficiaries that have been sanctioned 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: and being able to then track them through different data 20 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: sets as they go into work or go into other situations. 21 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 1: Do you have excess as well when you're compiling this 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: report as it works the beneficiaries of the complying are 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: in the green category. If they get a warning, they 24 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: get moved into orange. If they're in really big trouble, 25 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: they get moved into rid. Right, have you had access 26 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: to how many of them got moved into orange, got 27 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: a bit of a fright and went back into green 28 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: and started complying. 29 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: No, as I say, it's just a benefit fact sheets. 30 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: So you get information on the number of benefits over time, 31 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: so the number of benefits imposed on a quarterly basis, 32 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: and then there's point in time. This is the number 33 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: of people in green, on orange and in red. And 34 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: as I say, that's just in point in time over 35 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 2: several quarters. 36 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Because correct me if I'm wrong. But you guys looked 37 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: at how many beneficiaries of what proportion were sitting in 38 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: orange and ridd, and given that it was a really 39 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: tiny number, you concluded the system isn't working. 40 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: No, not at all. I mean the fact that it's 41 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: a really tiny number suggest that, well, it doesn't suggest. 42 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: It shows that the vast majority of beneficiaries are meeting 43 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 2: their obligations. The question is whether those sanctions and those 44 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: obligations are encouraging people to go into work now it's 45 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: obviously not. The last eighteen months has not been a 46 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: good time to be finding a job in New Zealand. 47 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: Vacancies have dried up on unemployment rates are much higher 48 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: and for those that are unfortunate enough to be looking 49 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 2: for a job, this fierce competition. So it's it's more 50 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: about the research that has shown to day that it 51 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: doesn't really, at least for a small cohort of beneficiaries, 52 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: sanctions don't change their behavior. And I think for me 53 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: that the main conclusion from what I from what I 54 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: wrote in that article was that you just need more 55 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: research and a little bit more evidence at the moment 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: that there just isn't enough researching to have sanctions affect 57 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: beneficiary's behavior, and in the absence of that research and evidence, 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: that beneficiaries just get used as a political football, which 59 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: is just sad. 60 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: Rob. It's good to talk to you. Thank you so much. 61 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: That's Rob Hayes Informetrix Principal Consultants. 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