WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #246 - July 10th 2024 - Anthony O’Brien 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.813 --> 0:00:19.813 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.853 --> 0:00:24.373 the information, all the debates of the US Now the 0:00:24.573 --> 0:00:27.733 Layton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B. 0:00:27.973 --> 0:00:31.093 Welcome to podcasts two hundred and forty six for July ten, 0:00:31.333 --> 0:00:35.453 twenty twenty four. His name is Anthony and he is 0:00:35.493 --> 0:00:38.853 one of the most interesting and productive interviews that I've done. 0:00:39.253 --> 0:00:43.173 Anthony's worked all over the world, including Sydney, London, Vancouver, 0:00:43.213 --> 0:00:47.893 Budapest and made multiple trips to China. He has degrees 0:00:47.933 --> 0:00:51.893 in science and law. Now, while there's many matters that 0:00:51.933 --> 0:00:55.453 concern him, it is arguably the New Zealand education system 0:00:55.493 --> 0:00:58.533 that concerns him the most and it drew my attention. 0:00:59.293 --> 0:01:03.693 We shall talk with Anthony O'Brien very shortly, but first 0:01:03.733 --> 0:01:08.293 a minor matter about one that involves coincidence, and you know, 0:01:08.333 --> 0:01:11.573 oh how I love coincidences. I got off about six 0:01:11.613 --> 0:01:13.853 o'clock this morning and went downstairs to make a cup 0:01:13.893 --> 0:01:15.773 of tea. Now, usually it's a pot of tea with 0:01:15.893 --> 0:01:19.693 six dilmar tea bags in it, but on this occasion. Well, 0:01:19.813 --> 0:01:23.133 for the last three weeks, since I've been batching, I've 0:01:23.173 --> 0:01:26.573 been making single cups with a single tea bag. And 0:01:26.893 --> 0:01:28.773 it occurred to me a couple of days ago that, 0:01:29.653 --> 0:01:34.013 just pondering things, my mother lessa used to make a 0:01:34.053 --> 0:01:37.093 cup of tea exactly that way, and then she would 0:01:37.893 --> 0:01:40.653 squeeze out the tea bag and keep it and make 0:01:40.653 --> 0:01:43.733 a second cup later. Now this used to bother me 0:01:43.853 --> 0:01:46.053 because she didn't need to do that. It was just 0:01:46.133 --> 0:01:48.973 the way that she was brought up and the position 0:01:49.013 --> 0:01:51.613 that she found herself in life. And so it is 0:01:51.653 --> 0:01:55.053 with many people. So my little problem used to be 0:01:55.173 --> 0:01:58.373 paper towels. I didn't buy them. I thought there are 0:01:58.373 --> 0:02:01.013 a waste of money. They were unnecessary. No paper towels 0:02:01.053 --> 0:02:04.693 at my place. And then the circumstances changed, and with 0:02:04.773 --> 0:02:07.693 it so did my attitude. So now I'd like a 0:02:07.733 --> 0:02:12.053 good roll of paper towels sitting on the stand. And 0:02:12.133 --> 0:02:15.093 this morning I went down and, like I say, made 0:02:15.093 --> 0:02:18.653 a cup of tea, and I looked at the paper towels, 0:02:18.693 --> 0:02:22.253 which are right by the kettle, and I thought, I'm 0:02:22.293 --> 0:02:24.373 going to have to replace them shortly. I better take 0:02:24.413 --> 0:02:27.853 it easy. As I pulled a big sheet off, and 0:02:27.893 --> 0:02:29.773 I must admit that I've been using them, sparing me. 0:02:30.133 --> 0:02:34.253 So with the tea, I went back to bed and 0:02:34.333 --> 0:02:36.693 opened up the computer for the first time and sprawled 0:02:36.693 --> 0:02:39.893 through the mail. There was an email there from Jeffrey 0:02:39.933 --> 0:02:44.813 Tucker of Brownstone Institute Fame. Well, I'd been communicating with 0:02:44.893 --> 0:02:46.773 Jeffrey and talking with him. He was a couple of 0:02:46.853 --> 0:02:51.253 times on the podcast before Brownstone became an event. But 0:02:51.373 --> 0:02:55.613 the headline caught my attention. It was a question saving 0:02:55.653 --> 0:02:59.773 your aluminium pie pans. Yet a friend has stopped buying 0:02:59.813 --> 0:03:04.613 paper towels, not for environmental reasons, he just finds them unaffordable. 0:03:04.653 --> 0:03:09.453 Now curious, writes Jeffrey. I took a closer look. Sure enough, 0:03:09.453 --> 0:03:13.373 in my own buying history, I've documented a seventy percent 0:03:13.493 --> 0:03:18.493 increase in prices over sixteen months. That's seven zero. Others 0:03:18.493 --> 0:03:21.533 are seeing this too, and balking at spending two dollars 0:03:21.533 --> 0:03:24.693 fifty year roll. At these prices, it makes more sense 0:03:24.733 --> 0:03:28.013 to re use cotton kitchen towels for quick cleanups. This 0:03:28.213 --> 0:03:33.053 is a consequence of substitution in light of price changes. 0:03:33.373 --> 0:03:37.613 Examining official data, that is, producer price index or PPI, 0:03:37.973 --> 0:03:41.413 which is more accurate than Consumer Price Index or CPI. 0:03:41.933 --> 0:03:45.693 Examining the official data on wood pulp products, what do 0:03:45.773 --> 0:03:48.933 we find a huge increase in the twenty one to 0:03:48.973 --> 0:03:52.573 twenty three years, followed by a crash, then a small 0:03:52.653 --> 0:03:57.773 increase for an overall increase of fifty percent since twenty twenty. 0:03:58.493 --> 0:04:03.053 That is substantial, he writes, added serious and clearly gets 0:04:03.133 --> 0:04:07.533 passed on to consumer products. The CPI does not reflect that. However, 0:04:07.973 --> 0:04:11.493 we are seeing this ever more people are shifting their consumption, 0:04:11.693 --> 0:04:14.853 regardless of the claims that inflation is gone. We see 0:04:14.893 --> 0:04:19.293 our bills and no otherwise. Therefore, people are substituting meat 0:04:19.773 --> 0:04:23.493 for pasta and rice, and brand name items for store 0:04:23.533 --> 0:04:26.373 brands and generics. The thrift stores are doing a bang 0:04:26.453 --> 0:04:29.453 up business, and people are searching for evermore ways to 0:04:29.493 --> 0:04:33.733 cut costs. This has a powerful impact on a whole generation. 0:04:34.293 --> 0:04:37.973 It affects what we consider to be valuable as versus 0:04:38.053 --> 0:04:41.213 that which we consider trash. I never imagined that I 0:04:41.253 --> 0:04:45.253 would save plastic food containers for storage, but I'm leaning 0:04:45.293 --> 0:04:47.693 this way now. I'm sure you can come up with 0:04:47.853 --> 0:04:51.373 your own examples of how your personal estimation of value 0:04:51.493 --> 0:04:54.533 is changing. And he then goes on with a quick story. 0:04:54.733 --> 0:04:57.973 About twenty years ago, an elderly lady next door died 0:04:58.093 --> 0:05:00.413 and her extended family came to clean out the house. 0:05:01.053 --> 0:05:03.613 They found a room that was oddly filled with containers, 0:05:03.733 --> 0:05:09.253 mostly aluminium pipeans. They were astonished. As we talked, I 0:05:09.373 --> 0:05:12.573 made the case for her seemingly strange habit. She grew 0:05:12.653 --> 0:05:16.373 up in the Great Depression and then faced wartime rationing. 0:05:16.853 --> 0:05:20.613 This is what formed her sense of what was and 0:05:20.813 --> 0:05:24.053 was not valuable. She held on to that for her 0:05:24.413 --> 0:05:29.013 whole life. My mother was much the same. This is 0:05:29.053 --> 0:05:32.813 not eccentric or crazy. It's just evaluation, estimate based on 0:05:33.213 --> 0:05:36.333 an older sense of supply and demand that had not 0:05:36.453 --> 0:05:39.933 been updated in light of changes. To her, it was 0:05:40.093 --> 0:05:43.413 simply unthinkable to throw away a good pipeam. Back during 0:05:43.693 --> 0:05:47.813 World War II, the Office of Price Administration issued coupon 0:05:47.893 --> 0:05:51.093 books for adominium. If you wanted a pan or foil, 0:05:51.493 --> 0:05:54.173 you had to present a coupon before you could get it. 0:05:54.773 --> 0:05:58.653 Such an experience leaves a permanent impression. This lady never 0:05:58.733 --> 0:06:00.453 let go of it. We only think it's a bit 0:06:00.573 --> 0:06:05.373 nutty because during those years adaminium was ubiquitous. Once used, 0:06:05.733 --> 0:06:09.853 it all seemed like trash that always be true, not 0:06:10.013 --> 0:06:13.493 so much. I'm looking now at a one year increase 0:06:13.533 --> 0:06:17.493 in aluminium prices and see that they are up one 0:06:17.693 --> 0:06:21.813 d seventy eight percent. You see, this is the price 0:06:22.053 --> 0:06:25.253 of foil. In other words, the bad old days could 0:06:25.373 --> 0:06:28.693 in fact return. In fact, they have in part returns. 0:06:28.693 --> 0:06:30.693 And we all know it because we all go shopping 0:06:30.693 --> 0:06:34.213 at some stage and we see what we see, what's happened. 0:06:35.053 --> 0:06:37.133 I'm very careful now when I walk walk around the 0:06:37.653 --> 0:06:42.293 supermarket and I look at all the details it's happened. 0:06:42.373 --> 0:06:44.613 I think it comes with semi retirement, by the way, 0:06:45.093 --> 0:06:49.893 but nevertheless it's something that I have come to enjoy doing. 0:06:50.373 --> 0:06:50.573 Now. 0:06:50.653 --> 0:06:55.173 Just to add to the drama, we have a little 0:06:55.253 --> 0:06:58.213 Suzuki parked in the driveway at the moment. Belongs to 0:06:58.893 --> 0:07:03.453 one of my stepdaughters, and she's with her mother and 0:07:03.533 --> 0:07:08.373 her sister in London in Greece. I my dad, but 0:07:08.133 --> 0:07:11.933 I was asked to It's an old model two thousand 0:07:11.973 --> 0:07:15.813 and four I think, and I was asked to turn 0:07:15.853 --> 0:07:18.493 it over a couple of times so the battery wouldn't 0:07:18.533 --> 0:07:21.333 go flat. So I hopped into the car after about 0:07:21.373 --> 0:07:23.973 a week and turned it on. The First thing that 0:07:24.053 --> 0:07:26.773 hit me was that the petrol tank was virtually empty. 0:07:27.373 --> 0:07:32.213 It was into the reserve, and I didn't want to 0:07:33.173 --> 0:07:35.973 run the engine on that. I didn't want to drive 0:07:36.013 --> 0:07:38.733 it down to the petrol station. Why because I'd also 0:07:38.853 --> 0:07:43.053 noticed that the two days after she left, its registration expired. 0:07:43.613 --> 0:07:45.573 So you could see what could happen, couldn't you? You run 0:07:45.613 --> 0:07:48.133 out of petrol? Cops come along and say, what's the matter, 0:07:48.493 --> 0:07:52.493 Let's have a look. See that you're driving an unregistered car. 0:07:52.853 --> 0:07:56.093 It's and your and your in lock up for a 0:07:56.093 --> 0:07:59.813 week or something. So in the end I ended up 0:07:59.853 --> 0:08:01.853 going down a few days later and bought a jerry 0:08:01.893 --> 0:08:05.533 Can and then went and put seven eight liters of 0:08:06.133 --> 0:08:09.653 ninety two petrol in it. I did so, I watched 0:08:09.933 --> 0:08:13.173 the price of it, and I put ninety eight in 0:08:13.253 --> 0:08:18.653 my AMG engined car, and I thought, I wonder if 0:08:18.653 --> 0:08:21.293 I could save money by moving down to ninety two 0:08:21.373 --> 0:08:25.813 for a while. Would anybody notice? And then it occurred 0:08:25.813 --> 0:08:29.853 to me that actually going in for service shortly, and 0:08:29.893 --> 0:08:32.933 they might very well notice, and they might get very upset. 0:08:33.573 --> 0:08:37.533 Putting in a petrol of that different ratio would be 0:08:38.853 --> 0:08:42.333 murder for the car with the engine that I've got, 0:08:42.533 --> 0:08:46.893 So I didn't, obviously, and I won't. But the fact 0:08:46.933 --> 0:08:49.253 that it occurred to me that I might do it 0:08:49.333 --> 0:08:51.573 in the first place, and I thought about it was 0:08:51.653 --> 0:08:55.253 another sign of the times. And as Jeffrey Archer says 0:08:55.253 --> 0:08:58.733 to his audience in writing, I'll say to you, we 0:08:58.773 --> 0:09:01.733 all have our examples, and we all know exactly what 0:09:02.173 --> 0:09:06.333 I'm talking about. It's the way that life is, and 0:09:06.493 --> 0:09:09.293 is it going to change anytime soon? 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Always read the label and 0:10:35.053 --> 0:10:39.213 users directed, and if symptoms persist, seeing your healthcare professional. 0:10:39.373 --> 0:10:56.813 Farmer Broker Auckland Anthony O'Brien otherwise known to his family 0:10:56.813 --> 0:11:00.813 as Aunt O'Brien or Tony if you like ant, is 0:11:00.933 --> 0:11:03.973 a writer, a thinker, a man who was raised in 0:11:03.973 --> 0:11:07.933 New Zealand with a large family seven kids, where they 0:11:08.013 --> 0:11:10.773 loved to debate everything and taught to play ball. Not 0:11:10.893 --> 0:11:15.693 the man educated in science and law. His career was 0:11:15.733 --> 0:11:19.373 mostly spent outside of New Zealand in trade promotion, manufacturing 0:11:19.533 --> 0:11:24.173 management and TVET education. It's a great pleasure to have 0:11:24.213 --> 0:11:26.653 you on the podcast. I think it's a privilege. Chant oh, 0:11:26.733 --> 0:11:28.173 thank you for having me later, and it's great to 0:11:28.213 --> 0:11:30.573 be here. You came to my attention by a roundabout 0:11:30.573 --> 0:11:33.333 way that I won't go into, and I was actually 0:11:33.373 --> 0:11:36.653 quite thrilled. The part that I want to start with 0:11:36.933 --> 0:11:40.213 because it intrigues me. You did a degree in New 0:11:40.333 --> 0:11:43.453 Zealand in the eighties in the earth sciences, and then 0:11:43.973 --> 0:11:47.653 the following decade you did a law degree at Sydney University. 0:11:48.053 --> 0:11:49.133 Why did you do that? 0:11:49.773 --> 0:11:52.613 Well, Look, in the eighties when I left school, most 0:11:52.613 --> 0:11:55.253 of my friends actually had a plan. I had a 0:11:55.293 --> 0:11:57.373 friend who went on to be a pharmacist and other 0:11:57.413 --> 0:12:01.413 a doctor. I really didn't know what I wanted to do, 0:12:01.573 --> 0:12:07.773 and I also was a little bit impetunious at that point. 0:12:08.493 --> 0:12:10.333 Staying in the way Kettow and going to the local 0:12:10.413 --> 0:12:12.893 university seemed like the most logical thing to do. I 0:12:12.893 --> 0:12:17.893 was actually caretaker at that stage of my father's primary school, 0:12:17.933 --> 0:12:20.133 so I was making some income from that. So I 0:12:20.173 --> 0:12:24.653 put myself through university and started a science degree, and 0:12:24.693 --> 0:12:28.293 I just found earth science or geology the most fascinating 0:12:28.333 --> 0:12:30.653 of the sciences that I did and I had a 0:12:30.693 --> 0:12:34.333 hope of going into that field and going to Australia 0:12:34.493 --> 0:12:37.693 where my brother had already gone ahead of me, and 0:12:37.773 --> 0:12:41.133 he was encouraging me to do that geology study as well. 0:12:41.773 --> 0:12:43.253 So then he went and did law. Why did you 0:12:43.333 --> 0:12:43.813 choose law? 0:12:44.853 --> 0:12:47.413 Well, the funny thing is just let me feel in 0:12:47.413 --> 0:12:50.653 a little bit there. When I went to Australia, it 0:12:50.693 --> 0:12:53.293 was in the mid eighties and there was certainly no 0:12:53.373 --> 0:12:55.853 work in geology in New Zealand. So I went to 0:12:56.373 --> 0:13:00.013 Australia looking to work in the outback. But I loved rugby, 0:13:00.173 --> 0:13:03.813 so I was actually playing for Randwick, trying to get 0:13:03.853 --> 0:13:06.853 into the Randwick Seniors. They were known as the Galloping Greens, 0:13:06.853 --> 0:13:09.693 the best rugby club Australia actually rugby union. 0:13:09.733 --> 0:13:10.213 This is. 0:13:11.733 --> 0:13:14.813 And as much as anything, that was a pursuit that 0:13:14.853 --> 0:13:18.893 I wanted to go after as well. But I was 0:13:18.933 --> 0:13:20.813 a Johnny could have been, to be honest, I was 0:13:20.853 --> 0:13:23.093 never quite going to get to the top. And I 0:13:23.093 --> 0:13:26.973 saw a job at IBM, the computer company in the 0:13:27.413 --> 0:13:29.773 what did they call it, the Commonwealth Enployment Service window. 0:13:29.813 --> 0:13:31.653 I went in and talked to the lady and she said, 0:13:31.693 --> 0:13:33.333 you're too qualified for that, and I said. 0:13:33.133 --> 0:13:36.013 I don't care, it's what I want to do. 0:13:36.493 --> 0:13:38.453 I want to join a good company, but this enables 0:13:38.493 --> 0:13:41.413 me to practice my rugby do a lot of fitness training. 0:13:41.893 --> 0:13:44.053 And I went along and I became a forklift driver 0:13:44.253 --> 0:13:47.653 in the IBM Weirdhouse in Roseberry and Sydney, and frankly, 0:13:48.093 --> 0:13:51.253 having joined IBM, my boss at the time, Jack Black, 0:13:51.773 --> 0:13:53.653 leaned across the table and said, you've got a job 0:13:53.693 --> 0:13:55.653 for life, because I think at that stage IBM had 0:13:55.653 --> 0:13:59.413 never laid anyone off. And then I got promoted from 0:13:59.453 --> 0:14:03.333 there into the city where I became an account administrator. 0:14:04.053 --> 0:14:07.413 So I actually did that with an intention of being 0:14:07.453 --> 0:14:10.613 an IBM for a a long time. And I have 0:14:10.693 --> 0:14:13.173 to say it was a fantastic training ground and credible 0:14:13.173 --> 0:14:16.373 company to work for. But then they went through their 0:14:16.373 --> 0:14:21.253 problems in the early nineties and at that stage it 0:14:21.333 --> 0:14:23.813 kept occurring to me that science wasn't my thing, that 0:14:24.093 --> 0:14:27.373 perhaps law was more what I wanted to do. And 0:14:27.413 --> 0:14:32.333 I actually started a course which is part time. What's 0:14:32.493 --> 0:14:37.293 a course through the Legal Practitioners Admission Board in Sydney, Yes, 0:14:38.013 --> 0:14:42.093 which allowed me to It's actually a diploma in law later, 0:14:42.693 --> 0:14:47.373 not a bachelor's degree, but it's done in conjunction with 0:14:47.453 --> 0:14:48.453 Sydney University. 0:14:49.573 --> 0:14:53.013 Let me just tell you I did twelve months of that, Okay, 0:14:53.093 --> 0:14:54.333 about ten years before you. 0:14:55.093 --> 0:14:57.253 Okay, Well you know that it gives you the right 0:14:57.333 --> 0:15:02.093 to become a solicitor in Australia. And when I started 0:15:02.093 --> 0:15:05.933 that course, just through happenstance and through a friend who 0:15:05.933 --> 0:15:09.333 i'd met as a flatmate, I saw an opportunity to 0:15:09.333 --> 0:15:12.213 go and work for the New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney, 0:15:12.533 --> 0:15:14.453 just to fill in for someone for six weeks. 0:15:15.053 --> 0:15:16.533 Someone had gone off on sick leave. 0:15:17.253 --> 0:15:20.573 After that six weeks and I was studying law at night, 0:15:21.453 --> 0:15:24.733 they offered me the job of locally hired Trade Commissioner 0:15:24.893 --> 0:15:29.093 and that was the start of my career with Trade 0:15:29.093 --> 0:15:32.453 New Zealand. And for the next I think five years, 0:15:32.453 --> 0:15:34.973 I did law every night and did that job every day. 0:15:34.973 --> 0:15:36.573 And it was probably the hardest five years I've ever 0:15:36.653 --> 0:15:40.493 done in my career, to be honest, because it was long, 0:15:40.533 --> 0:15:42.213 long days and nights indeed. 0:15:42.693 --> 0:15:45.373 And from there you went and let me run through 0:15:45.373 --> 0:15:47.173 a list and you tell me if I'm wrong anywhere. 0:15:48.133 --> 0:15:51.893 You became New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney, New Zealand 0:15:51.933 --> 0:15:56.813 Trade Commissioner and a Consul general in Vancouver, followed by 0:15:56.893 --> 0:15:59.733 Senior Trade Commissioner in Europe based in London. 0:16:01.093 --> 0:16:04.373 Correct. The only additional thing is in between. 0:16:05.213 --> 0:16:07.573 Between ninety six and two thousand, I had to come 0:16:07.613 --> 0:16:10.813 back to New Zealand and I became an account manager 0:16:10.813 --> 0:16:13.213 for the marine industry just after we won the America's 0:16:13.253 --> 0:16:17.293 Cup and so I worked with what was known as 0:16:17.413 --> 0:16:21.213 Joint Action Group back then Merrick's and the Auckland Marine 0:16:21.213 --> 0:16:27.893 Industry to assist them developed World one worldwide market. So 0:16:28.133 --> 0:16:29.933 that was my time in New Zealand. I had to 0:16:29.933 --> 0:16:31.933 put in that time in New Zealand to be considered 0:16:31.973 --> 0:16:34.693 to be posted formally as a trade commissioner. 0:16:34.733 --> 0:16:36.253 The local hires were a different thing. 0:16:36.293 --> 0:16:39.773 But then I got posted to Vancouver in two thousand 0:16:40.293 --> 0:16:42.413 as Trade Commissioner in Consul general. 0:16:42.533 --> 0:16:46.933 And you ended up at one point being well working 0:16:46.973 --> 0:16:50.453 for Fletcher's in Hungary. 0:16:50.733 --> 0:16:50.933 Yeah. 0:16:50.973 --> 0:16:53.453 Well that's an interesting story in itself because when I 0:16:53.573 --> 0:16:58.373 left the Senior Trade Commissioner role in London, I was 0:16:58.413 --> 0:17:01.493 working a little bit with Fletcher's. At that stage it 0:17:02.013 --> 0:17:05.373 was Ahi Roothing actually you probably remember that name, and 0:17:05.733 --> 0:17:11.573 Fletcher had bought that company, and the incumbent in Europe 0:17:11.653 --> 0:17:14.773 approached me, knowing that I was thinking about leaving, and said, look, 0:17:14.813 --> 0:17:19.693 we are going to either acquire our competitor or build 0:17:20.013 --> 0:17:24.493 a new manufacturing facility in Europe. Would you be interested 0:17:24.533 --> 0:17:28.533 to lead that burning? So I said yes, I flew 0:17:28.573 --> 0:17:31.293 down to New Zealand interviewed with the CEO. 0:17:30.973 --> 0:17:33.933 Of Fletcher Building at that time and. 0:17:35.333 --> 0:17:37.373 Got the job, and so I began as the sale 0:17:37.413 --> 0:17:40.973 as a marketing manager based in London. We did try 0:17:41.013 --> 0:17:46.133 to acquire the competitor, who we also licensed the Decra 0:17:46.293 --> 0:17:48.813 tile to, which was a company called I Capel out 0:17:48.853 --> 0:17:54.653 of Denmark. That fell through, and then the next step 0:17:54.733 --> 0:17:58.053 was to build a manufacturing facility and that was initially 0:17:58.053 --> 0:18:00.373 going to be in Slovenia, which was very attractive to 0:18:00.413 --> 0:18:04.573 me because my wife is Croatian of heritage, but in 0:18:04.613 --> 0:18:08.893 the end it went to Hungary and off we went 0:18:08.933 --> 0:18:13.373 to Budapest where the factory was built. The Kapex case 0:18:13.413 --> 0:18:16.373 for that was done in two thousand and seven. The 0:18:16.413 --> 0:18:20.733 factory opened the doors in two thousand and eight, just 0:18:20.733 --> 0:18:24.533 as the financial crisis hit. So we then went into 0:18:24.573 --> 0:18:27.413 a very very difficult period and I continued in that 0:18:27.533 --> 0:18:31.053 role for four years as the bottom fell out of 0:18:31.093 --> 0:18:34.053 the market in Eastern Europe. So I gained a very 0:18:34.133 --> 0:18:38.053 challenging time in my career, to be honest, but a 0:18:38.093 --> 0:18:40.093 fascinating time, a time where I learned well. 0:18:40.733 --> 0:18:44.973 I've also got connections in Budapest in Hungary, Okay, and 0:18:45.053 --> 0:18:45.733 I love the place. 0:18:47.053 --> 0:18:48.133 It is a great So. 0:18:48.093 --> 0:18:50.053 Let's bring it. Let's bring it up to the present. 0:18:50.213 --> 0:18:53.413 You came You came back to New Zealand when your 0:18:53.653 --> 0:18:58.813 kids were hitting school age or important school age might 0:18:58.853 --> 0:19:00.253 be the right way to put it correct. 0:19:01.333 --> 0:19:03.893 Yeah, Look, I think one of the big issues for 0:19:03.973 --> 0:19:06.773 us in Hungary was our kids were ten, eight and 0:19:06.853 --> 0:19:10.733 six at the time, and we were very conscious of 0:19:10.813 --> 0:19:13.493 the issue of third culture kids. Our kids didn't have 0:19:13.613 --> 0:19:16.533 a home base in Hungary and its language was never 0:19:16.533 --> 0:19:18.173 going to be an easy place for them to actually 0:19:18.213 --> 0:19:20.453 identify with as their home. 0:19:21.013 --> 0:19:23.493 So we brought them home and I. 0:19:23.453 --> 0:19:26.693 Had the opportunity at that stage to come right back home, 0:19:26.693 --> 0:19:29.893 which I wasn't expecting at all. But I came back 0:19:29.893 --> 0:19:34.973 to Hamilton, back to the Way Institute of Technology as 0:19:34.973 --> 0:19:38.693 a business development manager at that point, and yeah, it was. 0:19:38.613 --> 0:19:39.773 A surprising journey for me. 0:19:39.853 --> 0:19:43.253 But I'd lost my father a few years before that, 0:19:43.413 --> 0:19:46.213 just at the same time as the factory opened, actually, 0:19:46.213 --> 0:19:49.173 and just made sense to come home to give the 0:19:49.253 --> 0:19:50.973 kids a base. 0:19:50.733 --> 0:19:53.773 In New Zealand, to give them a New Zealand identity. 0:19:53.413 --> 0:19:56.533 And the New Zealand education because you knew from experience 0:19:56.573 --> 0:19:59.853 how good it was, or at least that's what you thought. 0:20:00.773 --> 0:20:02.773 You're also a board member on the Waycatto Chamber of 0:20:02.773 --> 0:20:05.693 Commerce from twenty thirty to twenty nineteen. I understand. So 0:20:06.373 --> 0:20:10.253 you have been very active. You've lived a life to 0:20:10.333 --> 0:20:13.133 this point at least that many people would be envyous 0:20:13.173 --> 0:20:16.573 of because of the travel and the different experiences involved. 0:20:17.213 --> 0:20:21.973 So you come back to New Zealand and you put 0:20:22.013 --> 0:20:27.053 your kids into school, and now you are apart from 0:20:27.053 --> 0:20:30.413 it in whatever else you might be doing. Having just 0:20:30.453 --> 0:20:35.533 turned sixty last weekend, by the way, you have taken 0:20:35.613 --> 0:20:41.213 up substack writing. And this is what in part caught 0:20:41.213 --> 0:20:47.133 my attention, and you discovered you're writing specifically on kids 0:20:47.333 --> 0:20:50.493 and education at this point, and I don't know where 0:20:50.533 --> 0:20:54.453 you might continue on and go to was your writing, 0:20:54.533 --> 0:20:58.693 but at this particular point of time, you are almost obsessed, 0:20:58.973 --> 0:21:02.573 if I may say, with the education system or the 0:21:02.693 --> 0:21:06.893 lack of education system in this country. How did you 0:21:06.973 --> 0:21:11.213 become well? Can I read this? Let me read this. 0:21:11.253 --> 0:21:13.613 We enrolled our son in a very well regarded country 0:21:13.653 --> 0:21:16.773 school in the Waikato four years after we returned home. 0:21:16.813 --> 0:21:18.453 When my son was then in his second year at 0:21:18.493 --> 0:21:20.453 high school, what I used to know was form four. 0:21:21.013 --> 0:21:25.173 We were shocked when he said one night, we are 0:21:25.213 --> 0:21:28.093 finally doing maths equivalent to what I did in year 0:21:28.213 --> 0:21:32.613 six in Buddapest. Clearly we had not been paying attention. 0:21:33.013 --> 0:21:39.053 I was genuinely shocked and I'm surprised, Why weren't you 0:21:39.093 --> 0:21:41.853 paying more attention? I have to ask, well, that is 0:21:41.853 --> 0:21:44.453 a good question. I mean I just had assumed that 0:21:45.133 --> 0:21:46.133 he was learning more. 0:21:46.133 --> 0:21:48.413 And I think one of the reasons it's difficult to 0:21:48.453 --> 0:21:50.933 discern that is that the reporting in the New Zealand 0:21:51.173 --> 0:21:54.813 education system is so opaque you almost need a degree 0:21:54.853 --> 0:21:59.653 to understand the progress of children. And it wasn't until 0:21:59.653 --> 0:22:02.773 our son told me that that I started to really think, well, 0:22:02.773 --> 0:22:05.773 hold on, what's going on here. It became even more 0:22:05.813 --> 0:22:08.333 apparent with my younger two because they had less time 0:22:08.533 --> 0:22:12.933 in that system in Hungary, in the International British School 0:22:12.973 --> 0:22:17.013 in Hungary, and I began to realize that they didn't 0:22:17.013 --> 0:22:20.973 have any knowledge. They didn't know about things, and so 0:22:21.053 --> 0:22:23.893 that's when I did start to really start to investigate it. 0:22:23.933 --> 0:22:27.813 I was working obviously at the Wacatto Institute of Technology 0:22:27.853 --> 0:22:33.893 at that point and was seeing almost as zealous attachment 0:22:33.973 --> 0:22:38.333 to inquiry based learning. But I then began to realize 0:22:38.333 --> 0:22:41.413 that this was right through the system, and the imparting 0:22:41.413 --> 0:22:44.293 of knowledge to our kids wasn't happening as it had 0:22:44.453 --> 0:22:46.253 happened in Budapest. 0:22:47.013 --> 0:22:48.973 Did you at any stage regret returning home? 0:22:50.453 --> 0:22:51.453 I did it, to be honest. 0:22:51.853 --> 0:22:54.453 I came back to the education system here thinking that 0:22:54.493 --> 0:22:56.693 I could add a lot of value, and I found it. 0:22:56.733 --> 0:22:59.973 I had to button my lip. So that was the 0:23:00.013 --> 0:23:00.493 first thing. 0:23:00.853 --> 0:23:03.693 A lot of the time I think my views, and 0:23:03.733 --> 0:23:06.093 I'm someone who will state their views, but you are 0:23:06.093 --> 0:23:09.893 in a position where you have to sometimes run with 0:23:09.933 --> 0:23:12.533 the narrative or risk risk your job. And I think 0:23:12.573 --> 0:23:14.133 that's a big problem and USI and I think a 0:23:14.173 --> 0:23:16.373 lot of people know that the education system is not 0:23:16.453 --> 0:23:18.333 working that well, but. 0:23:18.413 --> 0:23:19.533 They're scared to speak up. 0:23:20.053 --> 0:23:22.013 It's also a very hard journey to come back to 0:23:22.053 --> 0:23:24.773 your own country after the life we have lived they 0:23:24.773 --> 0:23:27.373 say it's the hardest journey for the expect to come home. 0:23:28.493 --> 0:23:31.773