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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Layton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts two hundred and forty six for July ten,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. His name is Anthony and he is

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Speaker 2: one of the most interesting and productive interviews that I've done.

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Speaker 2: Anthony's worked all over the world, including Sydney, London, Vancouver,

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Speaker 2: Budapest and made multiple trips to China. He has degrees

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Speaker 2: in science and law. Now, while there's many matters that

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Speaker 2: concern him, it is arguably the New Zealand education system

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Speaker 2: that concerns him the most and it drew my attention.

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Speaker 2: We shall talk with Anthony O'Brien very shortly, but first

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Speaker 2: a minor matter about one that involves coincidence, and you know,

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Speaker 2: oh how I love coincidences. I got off about six

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Speaker 2: o'clock this morning and went downstairs to make a cup

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Speaker 2: of tea. Now, usually it's a pot of tea with

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Speaker 2: six dilmar tea bags in it, but on this occasion. Well,

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Speaker 2: for the last three weeks, since I've been batching, I've

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Speaker 2: been making single cups with a single tea bag. And

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Speaker 2: it occurred to me a couple of days ago that,

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Speaker 2: just pondering things, my mother lessa used to make a

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Speaker 2: cup of tea exactly that way, and then she would

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Speaker 2: squeeze out the tea bag and keep it and make

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Speaker 2: a second cup later. Now this used to bother me

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Speaker 2: because she didn't need to do that. It was just

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Speaker 2: the way that she was brought up and the position

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Speaker 2: that she found herself in life. And so it is

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Speaker 2: with many people. So my little problem used to be

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Speaker 2: paper towels. I didn't buy them. I thought there are

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Speaker 2: a waste of money. They were unnecessary. No paper towels

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Speaker 2: at my place. And then the circumstances changed, and with

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Speaker 2: it so did my attitude. So now I'd like a

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Speaker 2: good roll of paper towels sitting on the stand. And

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Speaker 2: this morning I went down and, like I say, made

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Speaker 2: a cup of tea, and I looked at the paper towels,

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Speaker 2: which are right by the kettle, and I thought, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to have to replace them shortly. I better take

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Speaker 2: it easy. As I pulled a big sheet off, and

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Speaker 2: I must admit that I've been using them, sparing me.

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Speaker 2: So with the tea, I went back to bed and

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Speaker 2: opened up the computer for the first time and sprawled

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Speaker 2: through the mail. There was an email there from Jeffrey

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Speaker 2: Tucker of Brownstone Institute Fame. Well, I'd been communicating with

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey and talking with him. He was a couple of

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Speaker 2: times on the podcast before Brownstone became an event. But

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Speaker 2: the headline caught my attention. It was a question saving

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Speaker 2: your aluminium pie pans. Yet a friend has stopped buying

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Speaker 2: paper towels, not for environmental reasons, he just finds them unaffordable.

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Speaker 2: Now curious, writes Jeffrey. I took a closer look. Sure enough,

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Speaker 2: in my own buying history, I've documented a seventy percent

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Speaker 2: increase in prices over sixteen months. That's seven zero. Others

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Speaker 2: are seeing this too, and balking at spending two dollars

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Speaker 2: fifty year roll. At these prices, it makes more sense

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Speaker 2: to re use cotton kitchen towels for quick cleanups. This

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Speaker 2: is a consequence of substitution in light of price changes.

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Speaker 2: Examining official data, that is, producer price index or PPI,

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Speaker 2: which is more accurate than Consumer Price Index or CPI.

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Speaker 2: Examining the official data on wood pulp products, what do

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Speaker 2: we find a huge increase in the twenty one to

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Speaker 2: twenty three years, followed by a crash, then a small

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Speaker 2: increase for an overall increase of fifty percent since twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: That is substantial, he writes, added serious and clearly gets

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Speaker 2: passed on to consumer products. The CPI does not reflect that. However,

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Speaker 2: we are seeing this ever more people are shifting their consumption,

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Speaker 2: regardless of the claims that inflation is gone. We see

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Speaker 2: our bills and no otherwise. Therefore, people are substituting meat

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Speaker 2: for pasta and rice, and brand name items for store

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Speaker 2: brands and generics. The thrift stores are doing a bang

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Speaker 2: up business, and people are searching for evermore ways to

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Speaker 2: cut costs. This has a powerful impact on a whole generation.

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Speaker 2: It affects what we consider to be valuable as versus

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Speaker 2: that which we consider trash. I never imagined that I

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Speaker 2: would save plastic food containers for storage, but I'm leaning

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Speaker 2: this way now. I'm sure you can come up with

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Speaker 2: your own examples of how your personal estimation of value

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Speaker 2: is changing. And he then goes on with a quick story.

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Speaker 2: About twenty years ago, an elderly lady next door died

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Speaker 2: and her extended family came to clean out the house.

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Speaker 2: They found a room that was oddly filled with containers,

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Speaker 2: mostly aluminium pipeans. They were astonished. As we talked, I

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Speaker 2: made the case for her seemingly strange habit. She grew

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Speaker 2: up in the Great Depression and then faced wartime rationing.

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Speaker 2: This is what formed her sense of what was and

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Speaker 2: was not valuable. She held on to that for her

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Speaker 2: whole life. My mother was much the same. This is

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Speaker 2: not eccentric or crazy. It's just evaluation, estimate based on

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Speaker 2: an older sense of supply and demand that had not

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Speaker 2: been updated in light of changes. To her, it was

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Speaker 2: simply unthinkable to throw away a good pipeam. Back during

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Speaker 2: World War II, the Office of Price Administration issued coupon

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Speaker 2: books for adominium. If you wanted a pan or foil,

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Speaker 2: you had to present a coupon before you could get it.

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Speaker 2: Such an experience leaves a permanent impression. This lady never

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Speaker 2: let go of it. We only think it's a bit

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Speaker 2: nutty because during those years adaminium was ubiquitous. Once used,

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Speaker 2: it all seemed like trash that always be true, not

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Speaker 2: so much. I'm looking now at a one year increase

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Speaker 2: in aluminium prices and see that they are up one

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Speaker 2: d seventy eight percent. You see, this is the price

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Speaker 2: of foil. In other words, the bad old days could

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Speaker 2: in fact return. In fact, they have in part returns.

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Speaker 2: And we all know it because we all go shopping

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Speaker 2: at some stage and we see what we see, what's happened.

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Speaker 2: I'm very careful now when I walk walk around the

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Speaker 2: supermarket and I look at all the details it's happened.

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Speaker 2: I think it comes with semi retirement, by the way,

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Speaker 2: but nevertheless it's something that I have come to enjoy doing.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: Just to add to the drama, we have a little

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Speaker 2: Suzuki parked in the driveway at the moment. Belongs to

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Speaker 2: one of my stepdaughters, and she's with her mother and

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Speaker 2: her sister in London in Greece. I my dad, but

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Speaker 2: I was asked to It's an old model two thousand

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Speaker 2: and four I think, and I was asked to turn

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Speaker 2: it over a couple of times so the battery wouldn't

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Speaker 2: go flat. So I hopped into the car after about

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Speaker 2: a week and turned it on. The First thing that

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Speaker 2: hit me was that the petrol tank was virtually empty.

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Speaker 2: It was into the reserve, and I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: run the engine on that. I didn't want to drive

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Speaker 2: it down to the petrol station. Why because I'd also

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Speaker 2: noticed that the two days after she left, its registration expired.

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Speaker 2: So you could see what could happen, couldn't you? You run

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Speaker 2: out of petrol? Cops come along and say, what's the matter,

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Speaker 2: Let's have a look. See that you're driving an unregistered car.

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Speaker 2: It's and your and your in lock up for a

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Speaker 2: week or something. So in the end I ended up

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Speaker 2: going down a few days later and bought a jerry

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Speaker 2: Can and then went and put seven eight liters of

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Speaker 2: ninety two petrol in it. I did so, I watched

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Speaker 2: the price of it, and I put ninety eight in

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Speaker 2: my AMG engined car, and I thought, I wonder if

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Speaker 2: I could save money by moving down to ninety two

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Speaker 2: for a while. Would anybody notice? And then it occurred

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Speaker 2: to me that actually going in for service shortly, and

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Speaker 2: they might very well notice, and they might get very upset.

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Speaker 2: Putting in a petrol of that different ratio would be

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Speaker 2: murder for the car with the engine that I've got,

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Speaker 2: So I didn't, obviously, and I won't. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that it occurred to me that I might do it

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Speaker 2: in the first place, and I thought about it was

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Speaker 2: another sign of the times. And as Jeffrey Archer says

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Speaker 2: to his audience in writing, I'll say to you, we

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Speaker 2: all have our examples, and we all know exactly what

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about. It's the way that life is, and

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Speaker 2: is it going to change anytime soon? There is another

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Speaker 2: question that begs a much greater discussion. There are essential

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Speaker 2: fat nutrients that we need in our diets as the

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Speaker 2: body cart manufacture them. These are omega three and Amega

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Speaker 2: six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish oil

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Speaker 2: and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides an

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Speaker 2: excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty acids

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Speaker 2: in their naturally existing ratios. The omega six from evening

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Speaker 2: primrose oil assists the omega three fish oil to be

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Speaker 2: more effective. Equisine is a high quality fish oil supplement

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Speaker 2: enriched with evening primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive

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Speaker 2: health support. Sourced from the deep sea sardines, Anchovisa magrol

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Speaker 2: provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in their purest form

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Speaker 2: without any internal organs or toxins. Every batch is tested

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Speaker 2: for its purity before it's allowed to be sold. Equisine

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Speaker 2: supports cells to be flexible, so imported to support healthy

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Speaker 2: blood flow and overall cardiovascular health. Equasine can support mood,

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Speaker 2: balance and mental clarity and focus in children, all the

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Speaker 2: way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and

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Speaker 2: healthy eyes as we get older. Equas In is a premium,

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Speaker 2: high grade fish and evening primrose oil to be taken

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Speaker 2: in addition to a healthy diet and is only available

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Speaker 2: from pharmacies and health stores. Always read the label and

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Speaker 2: users directed, and if symptoms persist, seeing your healthcare professional.

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Speaker 2: Farmer Broker Auckland Anthony O'Brien otherwise known to his family

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Speaker 2: as Aunt O'Brien or Tony if you like ant, is

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Speaker 2: a writer, a thinker, a man who was raised in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand with a large family seven kids, where they

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Speaker 2: loved to debate everything and taught to play ball. Not

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Speaker 2: the man educated in science and law. His career was

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Speaker 2: mostly spent outside of New Zealand in trade promotion, manufacturing

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Speaker 2: management and TVET education. It's a great pleasure to have

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Speaker 2: you on the podcast. I think it's a privilege. Chant oh,

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Speaker 2: thank you for having me later, and it's great to

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Speaker 2: be here. You came to my attention by a roundabout

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Speaker 2: way that I won't go into, and I was actually

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Speaker 2: quite thrilled. The part that I want to start with

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Speaker 2: because it intrigues me. You did a degree in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand in the eighties in the earth sciences, and then

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Speaker 2: the following decade you did a law degree at Sydney University.

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Speaker 2: Why did you do that?

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Speaker 4: Well, Look, in the eighties when I left school, most

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Speaker 4: of my friends actually had a plan. I had a

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Speaker 4: friend who went on to be a pharmacist and other

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Speaker 4: a doctor. I really didn't know what I wanted to do,

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Speaker 4: and I also was a little bit impetunious at that point.

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Speaker 4: Staying in the way Kettow and going to the local

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Speaker 4: university seemed like the most logical thing to do. I

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Speaker 4: was actually caretaker at that stage of my father's primary school,

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Speaker 4: so I was making some income from that. So I

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Speaker 4: put myself through university and started a science degree, and

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Speaker 4: I just found earth science or geology the most fascinating

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Speaker 4: of the sciences that I did and I had a

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Speaker 4: hope of going into that field and going to Australia

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Speaker 4: where my brother had already gone ahead of me, and

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Speaker 4: he was encouraging me to do that geology study as well.

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Speaker 2: So then he went and did law. Why did you

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Speaker 2: choose law?

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Speaker 4: Well, the funny thing is just let me feel in

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Speaker 4: a little bit there. When I went to Australia, it

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Speaker 4: was in the mid eighties and there was certainly no

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Speaker 4: work in geology in New Zealand. So I went to

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Speaker 4: Australia looking to work in the outback. But I loved rugby,

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Speaker 4: so I was actually playing for Randwick, trying to get

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Speaker 4: into the Randwick Seniors. They were known as the Galloping Greens,

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Speaker 4: the best rugby club Australia actually rugby union.

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Speaker 2: This is.

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Speaker 4: And as much as anything, that was a pursuit that

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Speaker 4: I wanted to go after as well. But I was

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Speaker 4: a Johnny could have been, to be honest, I was

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Speaker 4: never quite going to get to the top. And I

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Speaker 4: saw a job at IBM, the computer company in the

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Speaker 4: what did they call it, the Commonwealth Enployment Service window.

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Speaker 4: I went in and talked to the lady and she said,

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Speaker 4: you're too qualified for that, and I said.

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Speaker 3: I don't care, it's what I want to do.

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Speaker 4: I want to join a good company, but this enables

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Speaker 4: me to practice my rugby do a lot of fitness training.

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Speaker 4: And I went along and I became a forklift driver

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Speaker 4: in the IBM Weirdhouse in Roseberry and Sydney, and frankly,

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Speaker 4: having joined IBM, my boss at the time, Jack Black,

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Speaker 4: leaned across the table and said, you've got a job

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Speaker 4: for life, because I think at that stage IBM had

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Speaker 4: never laid anyone off. And then I got promoted from

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Speaker 4: there into the city where I became an account administrator.

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Speaker 4: So I actually did that with an intention of being

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Speaker 4: an IBM for a a long time. And I have

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Speaker 4: to say it was a fantastic training ground and credible

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Speaker 4: company to work for. But then they went through their

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Speaker 4: problems in the early nineties and at that stage it

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Speaker 4: kept occurring to me that science wasn't my thing, that

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Speaker 4: perhaps law was more what I wanted to do. And

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Speaker 4: I actually started a course which is part time. What's

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Speaker 4: a course through the Legal Practitioners Admission Board in Sydney, Yes,

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Speaker 4: which allowed me to It's actually a diploma in law later,

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Speaker 4: not a bachelor's degree, but it's done in conjunction with

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Speaker 4: Sydney University.

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Speaker 2: Let me just tell you I did twelve months of that, Okay,

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Speaker 2: about ten years before you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well you know that it gives you the right

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Speaker 4: to become a solicitor in Australia. And when I started

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Speaker 4: that course, just through happenstance and through a friend who

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Speaker 4: i'd met as a flatmate, I saw an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: go and work for the New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney,

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Speaker 4: just to fill in for someone for six weeks.

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Speaker 3: Someone had gone off on sick leave.

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Speaker 4: After that six weeks and I was studying law at night,

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Speaker 4: they offered me the job of locally hired Trade Commissioner

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Speaker 4: and that was the start of my career with Trade

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Speaker 4: New Zealand. And for the next I think five years,

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Speaker 4: I did law every night and did that job every day.

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Speaker 4: And it was probably the hardest five years I've ever

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Speaker 4: done in my career, to be honest, because it was long,

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Speaker 4: long days and nights indeed.

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Speaker 2: And from there you went and let me run through

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Speaker 2: a list and you tell me if I'm wrong anywhere.

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Speaker 2: You became New Zealand Trade Commissioner in Sydney, New Zealand

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Speaker 2: Trade Commissioner and a Consul general in Vancouver, followed by

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Speaker 2: Senior Trade Commissioner in Europe based in London.

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Speaker 3: Correct. The only additional thing is in between.

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Speaker 4: Between ninety six and two thousand, I had to come

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Speaker 4: back to New Zealand and I became an account manager

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Speaker 4: for the marine industry just after we won the America's

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Speaker 4: Cup and so I worked with what was known as

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Speaker 4: Joint Action Group back then Merrick's and the Auckland Marine

273
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Speaker 4: Industry to assist them developed World one worldwide market. So

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Speaker 4: that was my time in New Zealand. I had to

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Speaker 4: put in that time in New Zealand to be considered

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Speaker 4: to be posted formally as a trade commissioner.

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Speaker 3: The local hires were a different thing.

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Speaker 4: But then I got posted to Vancouver in two thousand

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Speaker 4: as Trade Commissioner in Consul general.

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Speaker 2: And you ended up at one point being well working

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Speaker 2: for Fletcher's in Hungary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well that's an interesting story in itself because when I

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Speaker 4: left the Senior Trade Commissioner role in London, I was

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Speaker 4: working a little bit with Fletcher's. At that stage it

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Speaker 4: was Ahi Roothing actually you probably remember that name, and

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Speaker 4: Fletcher had bought that company, and the incumbent in Europe

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Speaker 4: approached me, knowing that I was thinking about leaving, and said, look,

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Speaker 4: we are going to either acquire our competitor or build

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Speaker 4: a new manufacturing facility in Europe. Would you be interested

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Speaker 4: to lead that burning? So I said yes, I flew

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Speaker 4: down to New Zealand interviewed with the CEO.

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Speaker 3: Of Fletcher Building at that time and.

294
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Speaker 4: Got the job, and so I began as the sale

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Speaker 4: as a marketing manager based in London. We did try

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Speaker 4: to acquire the competitor, who we also licensed the Decra

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Speaker 4: tile to, which was a company called I Capel out

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Speaker 4: of Denmark. That fell through, and then the next step

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Speaker 4: was to build a manufacturing facility and that was initially

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Speaker 4: going to be in Slovenia, which was very attractive to

301
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Speaker 4: me because my wife is Croatian of heritage, but in

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Speaker 4: the end it went to Hungary and off we went

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Speaker 4: to Budapest where the factory was built. The Kapex case

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Speaker 4: for that was done in two thousand and seven. The

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Speaker 4: factory opened the doors in two thousand and eight, just

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Speaker 4: as the financial crisis hit. So we then went into

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Speaker 4: a very very difficult period and I continued in that

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Speaker 4: role for four years as the bottom fell out of

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Speaker 4: the market in Eastern Europe. So I gained a very

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Speaker 4: challenging time in my career, to be honest, but a

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Speaker 4: fascinating time, a time where I learned well.

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Speaker 2: I've also got connections in Budapest in Hungary, Okay, and

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Speaker 2: I love the place.

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Speaker 3: It is a great So.

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Speaker 2: Let's bring it. Let's bring it up to the present.

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Speaker 2: You came You came back to New Zealand when your

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Speaker 2: kids were hitting school age or important school age might

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Speaker 2: be the right way to put it correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, I think one of the big issues for

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Speaker 4: us in Hungary was our kids were ten, eight and

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Speaker 4: six at the time, and we were very conscious of

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Speaker 4: the issue of third culture kids. Our kids didn't have

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Speaker 4: a home base in Hungary and its language was never

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Speaker 4: going to be an easy place for them to actually

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Speaker 4: identify with as their home.

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Speaker 3: So we brought them home and I.

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Speaker 4: Had the opportunity at that stage to come right back home,

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Speaker 4: which I wasn't expecting at all. But I came back

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Speaker 4: to Hamilton, back to the Way Institute of Technology as

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Speaker 4: a business development manager at that point, and yeah, it was.

331
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Speaker 3: A surprising journey for me.

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Speaker 4: But I'd lost my father a few years before that,

333
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Speaker 4: just at the same time as the factory opened, actually,

334
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Speaker 4: and just made sense to come home to give the

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Speaker 4: kids a base.

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Speaker 3: In New Zealand, to give them a New Zealand identity.

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Speaker 2: And the New Zealand education because you knew from experience

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Speaker 2: how good it was, or at least that's what you thought.

339
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Speaker 2: You're also a board member on the Waycatto Chamber of

340
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Speaker 2: Commerce from twenty thirty to twenty nineteen. I understand. So

341
00:20:06,373 --> 00:20:10,253
Speaker 2: you have been very active. You've lived a life to

342
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Speaker 2: this point at least that many people would be envyous

343
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Speaker 2: of because of the travel and the different experiences involved.

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Speaker 2: So you come back to New Zealand and you put

345
00:20:22,013 --> 00:20:27,053
Speaker 2: your kids into school, and now you are apart from

346
00:20:27,053 --> 00:20:30,413
Speaker 2: it in whatever else you might be doing. Having just

347
00:20:30,453 --> 00:20:35,533
Speaker 2: turned sixty last weekend, by the way, you have taken

348
00:20:35,613 --> 00:20:41,213
Speaker 2: up substack writing. And this is what in part caught

349
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Speaker 2: my attention, and you discovered you're writing specifically on kids

350
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Speaker 2: and education at this point, and I don't know where

351
00:20:50,533 --> 00:20:54,453
Speaker 2: you might continue on and go to was your writing,

352
00:20:54,533 --> 00:20:58,693
Speaker 2: but at this particular point of time, you are almost obsessed,

353
00:20:58,973 --> 00:21:02,573
Speaker 2: if I may say, with the education system or the

354
00:21:02,693 --> 00:21:06,893
Speaker 2: lack of education system in this country. How did you

355
00:21:06,973 --> 00:21:11,213
Speaker 2: become well? Can I read this? Let me read this.

356
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Speaker 2: We enrolled our son in a very well regarded country

357
00:21:13,653 --> 00:21:16,773
Speaker 2: school in the Waikato four years after we returned home.

358
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Speaker 2: When my son was then in his second year at

359
00:21:18,493 --> 00:21:20,453
Speaker 2: high school, what I used to know was form four.

360
00:21:21,013 --> 00:21:25,173
Speaker 2: We were shocked when he said one night, we are

361
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Speaker 2: finally doing maths equivalent to what I did in year

362
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Speaker 2: six in Buddapest. Clearly we had not been paying attention.

363
00:21:33,013 --> 00:21:39,053
Speaker 2: I was genuinely shocked and I'm surprised, Why weren't you

364
00:21:39,093 --> 00:21:41,853
Speaker 2: paying more attention? I have to ask, well, that is

365
00:21:41,853 --> 00:21:44,453
Speaker 2: a good question. I mean I just had assumed that

366
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Speaker 2: he was learning more.

367
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Speaker 4: And I think one of the reasons it's difficult to

368
00:21:48,453 --> 00:21:50,933
Speaker 4: discern that is that the reporting in the New Zealand

369
00:21:51,173 --> 00:21:54,813
Speaker 4: education system is so opaque you almost need a degree

370
00:21:54,853 --> 00:21:59,653
Speaker 4: to understand the progress of children. And it wasn't until

371
00:21:59,653 --> 00:22:02,773
Speaker 4: our son told me that that I started to really think, well,

372
00:22:02,773 --> 00:22:05,773
Speaker 4: hold on, what's going on here. It became even more

373
00:22:05,813 --> 00:22:08,333
Speaker 4: apparent with my younger two because they had less time

374
00:22:08,533 --> 00:22:12,933
Speaker 4: in that system in Hungary, in the International British School

375
00:22:12,973 --> 00:22:17,013
Speaker 4: in Hungary, and I began to realize that they didn't

376
00:22:17,013 --> 00:22:20,973
Speaker 4: have any knowledge. They didn't know about things, and so

377
00:22:21,053 --> 00:22:23,893
Speaker 4: that's when I did start to really start to investigate it.

378
00:22:23,933 --> 00:22:27,813
Speaker 4: I was working obviously at the Wacatto Institute of Technology

379
00:22:27,853 --> 00:22:33,893
Speaker 4: at that point and was seeing almost as zealous attachment

380
00:22:33,973 --> 00:22:38,333
Speaker 4: to inquiry based learning. But I then began to realize

381
00:22:38,333 --> 00:22:41,413
Speaker 4: that this was right through the system, and the imparting

382
00:22:41,413 --> 00:22:44,293
Speaker 4: of knowledge to our kids wasn't happening as it had

383
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Speaker 4: happened in Budapest.

384
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Speaker 2: Did you at any stage regret returning home?

385
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Speaker 3: I did it, to be honest.

386
00:22:51,853 --> 00:22:54,453
Speaker 4: I came back to the education system here thinking that

387
00:22:54,493 --> 00:22:56,693
Speaker 4: I could add a lot of value, and I found it.

388
00:22:56,733 --> 00:22:59,973
Speaker 3: I had to button my lip. So that was the

389
00:23:00,013 --> 00:23:00,493
Speaker 3: first thing.

390
00:23:00,853 --> 00:23:03,693
Speaker 4: A lot of the time I think my views, and

391
00:23:03,733 --> 00:23:06,093
Speaker 4: I'm someone who will state their views, but you are

392
00:23:06,093 --> 00:23:09,893
Speaker 4: in a position where you have to sometimes run with

393
00:23:09,933 --> 00:23:12,533
Speaker 4: the narrative or risk risk your job. And I think

394
00:23:12,573 --> 00:23:14,133
Speaker 4: that's a big problem and USI and I think a

395
00:23:14,173 --> 00:23:16,373
Speaker 4: lot of people know that the education system is not

396
00:23:16,453 --> 00:23:18,333
Speaker 4: working that well, but.

397
00:23:18,413 --> 00:23:19,533
Speaker 3: They're scared to speak up.

398
00:23:20,053 --> 00:23:22,013
Speaker 4: It's also a very hard journey to come back to

399
00:23:22,053 --> 00:23:24,773
Speaker 4: your own country after the life we have lived they

400
00:23:24,773 --> 00:23:27,373
Speaker 4: say it's the hardest journey for the expect to come home.

401
00:23:28,493 --> 00:23:31,773
Speaker 4: But on the other hand, look, I deeply believe in

402
00:23:31,813 --> 00:23:34,573
Speaker 4: this country. I've worked for a long time for this country,

403
00:23:34,573 --> 00:23:39,053
Speaker 4: and I still believe we can turn this around. And

404
00:23:39,093 --> 00:23:42,093
Speaker 4: so I'm here and I intend to stay here, and

405
00:23:42,133 --> 00:23:46,373
Speaker 4: I intend to keep banging this drum about education, although

406
00:23:46,613 --> 00:23:48,413
Speaker 4: I do want to write about other things as well.

407
00:23:48,733 --> 00:23:51,413
Speaker 3: Last and I've got a fairly eclectic set of interest.

408
00:23:51,413 --> 00:23:53,333
Speaker 2: At the age, at the age of sixty, are you

409
00:23:53,413 --> 00:23:56,133
Speaker 2: still interested in them? Gainful employment?

410
00:23:57,493 --> 00:23:59,493
Speaker 4: That's the big question at the moment. I've set myself

411
00:23:59,573 --> 00:24:04,093
Speaker 4: up as Tony O'Brien consulting. I think some of my.

412
00:24:04,173 --> 00:24:07,933
Speaker 3: Views may make it difficult for me to be employed

413
00:24:07,933 --> 00:24:08,973
Speaker 3: by some groups.

414
00:24:09,013 --> 00:24:12,253
Speaker 4: But I think if people genuinely want to have a

415
00:24:12,373 --> 00:24:15,373
Speaker 4: robust debate about how where we head as a society,

416
00:24:16,733 --> 00:24:20,613
Speaker 4: then you know, I'm very keen to add my two

417
00:24:20,613 --> 00:24:23,213
Speaker 4: pennies worth and support that endeavor.

418
00:24:23,773 --> 00:24:26,413
Speaker 3: So yeah, I look, I'd like to work, but I'm not.

419
00:24:26,573 --> 00:24:29,933
Speaker 4: Likely at this stage to go back into the corporate culture,

420
00:24:30,653 --> 00:24:33,493
Speaker 4: into a corporate in New Zealand, at least overseas, it

421
00:24:33,613 --> 00:24:34,453
Speaker 4: might be a different story.

422
00:24:34,733 --> 00:24:36,013
Speaker 3: My kids have all left home.

423
00:24:36,093 --> 00:24:39,293
Speaker 4: Now my youngest is now at Canterbury University doing engineering,

424
00:24:39,893 --> 00:24:43,333
Speaker 4: and the other tour off at Otaga University, both studying,

425
00:24:43,413 --> 00:24:46,573
Speaker 4: so you know there's an opportunity again now too.

426
00:24:46,893 --> 00:24:48,773
Speaker 2: May I ask what they're studying.

427
00:24:50,013 --> 00:24:53,853
Speaker 4: Well, my son's doing an honors in law alongside a

428
00:24:53,933 --> 00:24:58,693
Speaker 4: BA where he's doing the classic politics for philosophy and economics,

429
00:24:58,693 --> 00:25:03,173
Speaker 4: the old PPE degree that Oxford run and Otager offer that.

430
00:25:03,333 --> 00:25:07,093
Speaker 4: So he's he's doing very well and has just picked

431
00:25:07,133 --> 00:25:09,493
Speaker 4: up an internship with him to Allison for the summer.

432
00:25:10,533 --> 00:25:13,453
Speaker 4: My daughter was a very good dancer, did a year

433
00:25:13,533 --> 00:25:16,013
Speaker 4: at the New Zealand School of Dance, but she's quite

434
00:25:16,053 --> 00:25:19,293
Speaker 4: an academic as well and she's decided that she wants

435
00:25:19,293 --> 00:25:21,253
Speaker 4: to go down that path. So after a year at

436
00:25:21,253 --> 00:25:23,213
Speaker 4: the New Zealand School of Dance, she started this year

437
00:25:23,253 --> 00:25:27,413
Speaker 4: at Otago doing a BA with a major in psychology

438
00:25:27,693 --> 00:25:28,413
Speaker 4: and philosophy.

439
00:25:28,853 --> 00:25:30,293
Speaker 2: Are you concerned about the target?

440
00:25:30,853 --> 00:25:33,213
Speaker 4: I'm concerned about all of our universities, to be honest,

441
00:25:33,533 --> 00:25:39,453
Speaker 4: I think the prevailing view of all the university vice

442
00:25:39,533 --> 00:25:41,173
Speaker 4: chancellors is concerning.

443
00:25:41,613 --> 00:25:42,613
Speaker 3: I'm not sure where they head.

444
00:25:42,653 --> 00:25:46,093
Speaker 4: They've got financial issues, the loss of the international students,

445
00:25:46,573 --> 00:25:49,773
Speaker 4: and we haven't an unlikely to pick up the numbers

446
00:25:49,773 --> 00:25:51,253
Speaker 4: that we had in the past. Is going to be

447
00:25:51,293 --> 00:25:55,733
Speaker 4: difficult for them from a fiscal perspective. But the fact

448
00:25:55,813 --> 00:26:01,853
Speaker 4: that they run with this postmodernist sort of view and

449
00:26:01,973 --> 00:26:05,573
Speaker 4: the identity politics that are being expressed by these universities

450
00:26:06,853 --> 00:26:10,773
Speaker 4: really concerns me because there should be bastions of free speech.

451
00:26:11,333 --> 00:26:16,413
Speaker 4: And you know, I was reading Jonathan Aling's latest or

452
00:26:16,413 --> 00:26:18,573
Speaker 4: one of his latest emails that came out I followed

453
00:26:18,613 --> 00:26:22,133
Speaker 4: the Free Speech Union, and he was commenting on the

454
00:26:22,133 --> 00:26:26,733
Speaker 4: fact that the vice Chancellor of Victoria literally went out

455
00:26:26,773 --> 00:26:31,413
Speaker 4: to his academics and asked for information on Ailing and

456
00:26:31,613 --> 00:26:34,693
Speaker 4: or doctor Michael Johnston, who's of the New Zealand Initiative,

457
00:26:35,413 --> 00:26:38,933
Speaker 4: as examples of their racism, so that he could potentially

458
00:26:38,933 --> 00:26:41,413
Speaker 4: cancel them from the event that was to occur at

459
00:26:41,453 --> 00:26:45,773
Speaker 4: that university. This is an anathema and it's unbelievable that

460
00:26:45,773 --> 00:26:47,133
Speaker 4: that should have happened in New Zealand.

461
00:26:47,253 --> 00:26:51,213
Speaker 2: Well, Michael Johnson, of course was at Victoria University before

462
00:26:51,253 --> 00:26:55,893
Speaker 2: he joined the initiative, which is wasn't that long back,

463
00:26:56,973 --> 00:27:00,093
Speaker 2: so that in itself was surprising when you said it.

464
00:27:00,813 --> 00:27:04,413
Speaker 2: The reason I'm interested in it is because my son

465
00:27:04,493 --> 00:27:07,013
Speaker 2: went through and did a course very similar to yours

466
00:27:07,493 --> 00:27:11,413
Speaker 2: with Laura and Art. And if it was now that

467
00:27:11,533 --> 00:27:13,853
Speaker 2: he was wanting to go to a Tiger, I wouldn't

468
00:27:13,853 --> 00:27:14,693
Speaker 2: be paying the bills.

469
00:27:16,853 --> 00:27:19,853
Speaker 3: Wow, okay, And why why do you feel that way.

470
00:27:19,733 --> 00:27:22,773
Speaker 2: Particularly precisely for the for the for the reasons that

471
00:27:22,853 --> 00:27:26,133
Speaker 2: you gave only only probably extended ones.

472
00:27:28,013 --> 00:27:29,973
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the new, the new the.

473
00:27:29,853 --> 00:27:34,373
Speaker 2: New vice chancellor is I mean seriously, someone someone who

474
00:27:34,413 --> 00:27:39,413
Speaker 2: helped destroy the country financially is now going to run

475
00:27:39,453 --> 00:27:40,533
Speaker 2: a university could.

476
00:27:40,333 --> 00:27:42,293
Speaker 3: Be a break Well.

477
00:27:42,493 --> 00:27:44,693
Speaker 4: This is this is a problem that we've experienced in

478
00:27:44,693 --> 00:27:47,293
Speaker 4: the New Zealand before. There's there's various people being put

479
00:27:47,293 --> 00:27:50,573
Speaker 4: into positions from having been in political power and and

480
00:27:50,773 --> 00:27:53,973
Speaker 4: it isn't an issue where the person has the requisite experience.

481
00:27:54,133 --> 00:27:59,733
Speaker 4: But Grant Robinson is you know, he's a politician, but

482
00:28:00,053 --> 00:28:03,933
Speaker 4: I'm not convinced he has the background or experience to

483
00:28:03,973 --> 00:28:07,813
Speaker 4: be to be a vice chancellor. But it seems latent

484
00:28:07,853 --> 00:28:12,053
Speaker 4: that it. You know, meritocracy is the thing that is

485
00:28:13,333 --> 00:28:16,333
Speaker 4: sadly lacking here. We've seen so many examples in New

486
00:28:16,413 --> 00:28:20,413
Speaker 4: Zealand where people are appointed into positions not because they

487
00:28:20,533 --> 00:28:22,973
Speaker 4: actually are the best person for the role, but because

488
00:28:23,013 --> 00:28:28,573
Speaker 4: they fit some sort of identity characteristic that is required.

489
00:28:29,253 --> 00:28:34,053
Speaker 4: And that may not seem like a major problem initially.

490
00:28:34,133 --> 00:28:35,733
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm the first one to sort of

491
00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:39,053
Speaker 4: believe that we do need to have role models from all.

492
00:28:38,973 --> 00:28:41,653
Speaker 3: Areas of our society in various jobs.

493
00:28:41,693 --> 00:28:46,693
Speaker 4: But when it becomes a situation where a person's merit

494
00:28:46,813 --> 00:28:52,133
Speaker 4: is not considered and someone is appointed simply on the

495
00:28:52,133 --> 00:28:55,493
Speaker 4: basis of their identity, You're going to see a situation

496
00:28:55,613 --> 00:28:59,013
Speaker 4: over time where that lack of confidence in so many

497
00:28:59,093 --> 00:29:02,573
Speaker 4: different parts of the country, in so many different institutions,

498
00:29:03,133 --> 00:29:06,213
Speaker 4: starts to lead to poor decision making and starts to

499
00:29:06,293 --> 00:29:09,973
Speaker 4: lead to the failure of their And it's.

500
00:29:10,373 --> 00:29:12,973
Speaker 3: Something that New Zealanders should be really concerned about.

501
00:29:13,053 --> 00:29:16,333
Speaker 4: We have the talent in this country to run the

502
00:29:16,373 --> 00:29:19,653
Speaker 4: place well, but we may not have the right people

503
00:29:19,733 --> 00:29:20,453
Speaker 4: running the place.

504
00:29:21,573 --> 00:29:23,533
Speaker 2: Do we have the talent to run the place well?

505
00:29:23,893 --> 00:29:27,333
Speaker 2: And I asked that question based on the number of

506
00:29:27,333 --> 00:29:30,173
Speaker 2: flights leaving the country full of full of those people.

507
00:29:30,893 --> 00:29:33,013
Speaker 3: Well, that's a real question, you know, that's a really

508
00:29:33,053 --> 00:29:33,613
Speaker 3: good question.

509
00:29:33,733 --> 00:29:37,493
Speaker 4: I think it is a big concern that we educate

510
00:29:38,013 --> 00:29:41,573
Speaker 4: people here. As you say the education system is changing.

511
00:29:41,893 --> 00:29:44,973
Speaker 4: They have the same concerns that you do. But then

512
00:29:45,213 --> 00:29:48,933
Speaker 4: our best and brightest go and where they used to

513
00:29:48,933 --> 00:29:51,493
Speaker 4: come back, I'm not sure they will in the future.

514
00:29:51,533 --> 00:29:55,493
Speaker 4: And I think you interviewed Stephen Jennings at some point

515
00:29:55,493 --> 00:29:57,653
Speaker 4: in an earlier podcast and he was saying similar things.

516
00:29:57,693 --> 00:29:59,933
Speaker 4: I think he was saying similar things about education actually

517
00:29:59,933 --> 00:30:01,973
Speaker 4: that he was really concerned for New Zealand.

518
00:30:02,613 --> 00:30:07,773
Speaker 3: So I'm not sure that we will have the capacity

519
00:30:07,813 --> 00:30:10,013
Speaker 3: of New Zealand going forward.

520
00:30:10,133 --> 00:30:11,773
Speaker 2: Well, let me put it this way to you. You

521
00:30:11,893 --> 00:30:16,453
Speaker 2: have the ability and the capacity and the background to

522
00:30:16,653 --> 00:30:21,933
Speaker 2: involve yourself, if if, if you could in the areas

523
00:30:21,973 --> 00:30:26,133
Speaker 2: that you're concerned about and to and to give gift

524
00:30:26,213 --> 00:30:31,573
Speaker 2: your talent and knowledge and history to help develop what

525
00:30:31,613 --> 00:30:37,293
Speaker 2: we might consider a successful contemporary system of education. Except

526
00:30:37,333 --> 00:30:38,973
Speaker 2: you can't because they don't want you.

527
00:30:39,853 --> 00:30:44,413
Speaker 4: Well, that remains to be seen. But I suspect you're right.

528
00:30:44,453 --> 00:30:47,893
Speaker 4: I get the feeling that when I've spoken, I'm not

529
00:30:48,013 --> 00:30:53,173
Speaker 4: speaking in the right narrative. So yeah, they there's a

530
00:30:53,293 --> 00:30:57,133
Speaker 4: danger that people like me start to withdraw. And that's

531
00:30:57,133 --> 00:30:59,133
Speaker 4: how I feel a little bit. It's like, Okay, I'm

532
00:30:59,133 --> 00:31:02,293
Speaker 4: not not going to be heard, so what's the point

533
00:31:03,693 --> 00:31:06,133
Speaker 4: and it's it's it's very disappointing because I do look

534
00:31:06,173 --> 00:31:09,093
Speaker 4: at my experience and I sometimes wonder, what on what's

535
00:31:09,093 --> 00:31:11,893
Speaker 4: going on here? Why is my view someone who's been

536
00:31:12,933 --> 00:31:15,413
Speaker 4: in these roles around the world. I've worked both in

537
00:31:15,653 --> 00:31:19,293
Speaker 4: senior management and in trade promotion for the country. I

538
00:31:19,413 --> 00:31:24,893
Speaker 4: understand how our export sectors work, and yet I understand

539
00:31:24,893 --> 00:31:26,213
Speaker 4: how the education system works.

540
00:31:26,213 --> 00:31:27,373
Speaker 3: I've got a science degree.

541
00:31:27,133 --> 00:31:30,293
Speaker 4: I've got a law qualification, but I'm just not the

542
00:31:30,373 --> 00:31:35,333
Speaker 4: right age or color to be appointed into certain roles.

543
00:31:35,453 --> 00:31:37,733
Speaker 2: Okay, now there's more than that, but I want to

544
00:31:37,773 --> 00:31:40,093
Speaker 2: go back to this is the first article you wrote

545
00:31:40,093 --> 00:31:43,813
Speaker 2: as far as some aware, the problem statement, basically laying

546
00:31:43,853 --> 00:31:47,533
Speaker 2: out your approach to education in New Zealand and where

547
00:31:47,573 --> 00:31:52,173
Speaker 2: you see it faulty and praising some people who deserve

548
00:31:52,253 --> 00:31:57,013
Speaker 2: to be recognized more than they are. And I pick

549
00:31:57,053 --> 00:32:00,573
Speaker 2: it up. Firstly, our teachers are taught to adhere almost

550
00:32:00,693 --> 00:32:05,213
Speaker 2: religiously to what is known as constructivism, even social constructivism,

551
00:32:05,253 --> 00:32:08,933
Speaker 2: which is rolled out under the term Students sent Learning.

552
00:32:10,053 --> 00:32:15,493
Speaker 2: To be sure, constructivism is or as posited by Jean Pierge,

553
00:32:16,133 --> 00:32:19,093
Speaker 2: has its merits, but it needs to be tempered by

554
00:32:19,173 --> 00:32:22,813
Speaker 2: other pedagogical styles. As my father would have said, to

555
00:32:22,853 --> 00:32:26,173
Speaker 2: teach a child, you need to do what it takes,

556
00:32:26,533 --> 00:32:29,693
Speaker 2: and you go on. Erica Stanford, the new Minister of Education,

557
00:32:29,773 --> 00:32:31,853
Speaker 2: has listened and seems to be adopting many of the

558
00:32:31,853 --> 00:32:34,973
Speaker 2: recommendations put by the New Zealand Initiative in this space.

559
00:32:35,013 --> 00:32:39,333
Speaker 2: She's pushing, for example, the use of explicit instruction in

560
00:32:39,413 --> 00:32:43,573
Speaker 2: the form of structured literacy fancy that in helping children

561
00:32:43,613 --> 00:32:46,493
Speaker 2: to read. As she is to be commended, but she

562
00:32:46,573 --> 00:32:50,013
Speaker 2: needs to be supported again. As you've made mention of

563
00:32:50,213 --> 00:32:54,693
Speaker 2: this organization listening to Radio New Zealand, the pushback has

564
00:32:54,733 --> 00:32:58,693
Speaker 2: already started, and you go on to encourage all in

565
00:32:58,813 --> 00:33:04,413
Speaker 2: Sundry to back Erica Stanford and give her support. Have

566
00:33:04,493 --> 00:33:05,173
Speaker 2: you met with her?

567
00:33:06,013 --> 00:33:06,053
Speaker 1: No?

568
00:33:06,173 --> 00:33:09,813
Speaker 3: I have not. Actually I I did have.

569
00:33:10,013 --> 00:33:13,973
Speaker 4: A teleconference one night prior to the election with some

570
00:33:14,053 --> 00:33:16,653
Speaker 4: people and I think Erica might have been on that call,

571
00:33:17,853 --> 00:33:21,253
Speaker 4: and that was through my association with the Wackado Chamber

572
00:33:21,333 --> 00:33:24,653
Speaker 4: of Commerce, which i'd left by that stage as a director.

573
00:33:25,693 --> 00:33:27,773
Speaker 4: But there are people within the Chamber who think my

574
00:33:27,853 --> 00:33:30,933
Speaker 4: views need to be further heard. But I'd love to

575
00:33:30,933 --> 00:33:32,973
Speaker 4: do so. I'd love to talk to her about this,

576
00:33:33,133 --> 00:33:36,533
Speaker 4: because I think at the end of the day, you

577
00:33:36,533 --> 00:33:39,093
Speaker 4: know there is a place. Jean Pierreet when he said

578
00:33:39,973 --> 00:33:43,413
Speaker 4: children are scientists is right. They are very good. We

579
00:33:43,933 --> 00:33:47,613
Speaker 4: all humans have an inate ability to problem solve. We

580
00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:50,973
Speaker 4: learn how to talk without being sent to school. But

581
00:33:51,893 --> 00:33:56,493
Speaker 4: John Sweller talks about biological secondary information, not primary information,

582
00:33:56,573 --> 00:34:00,613
Speaker 4: but secondary information that we will only learn if we

583
00:34:00,653 --> 00:34:04,173
Speaker 4: go to school, and the idea that we need to

584
00:34:04,213 --> 00:34:08,253
Speaker 4: discover these things for ourselves to that all the best

585
00:34:08,413 --> 00:34:11,573
Speaker 4: learning happens when students discover things. Tends to come from

586
00:34:11,693 --> 00:34:14,013
Speaker 4: almost a counseling view of the world that you have

587
00:34:14,373 --> 00:34:17,373
Speaker 4: insights and we all do. But the fact of the

588
00:34:17,413 --> 00:34:21,253
Speaker 4: matter is you can't discover something if you're ignorant, not

589
00:34:21,453 --> 00:34:25,253
Speaker 4: of the world's knowledge. And a classical traditional education of

590
00:34:25,293 --> 00:34:28,373
Speaker 4: the past, ironically, the sort of education that the people

591
00:34:28,373 --> 00:34:31,613
Speaker 4: who are making the decisions in Wellington today got but

592
00:34:31,653 --> 00:34:36,253
Speaker 4: are now denying to the younger folk, gives people information

593
00:34:36,453 --> 00:34:41,053
Speaker 4: and once you have knowledge, as Ed Hirsch, an American

594
00:34:41,213 --> 00:34:46,773
Speaker 4: educational psychologist, says, knowledge begets knowledge. Another one, Dan Willingham,

595
00:34:46,853 --> 00:34:50,893
Speaker 4: who's a great educational psychologist out of I think Michigan.

596
00:34:51,493 --> 00:34:54,773
Speaker 4: He talks about the fact that teaching knowledge is teaching

597
00:34:55,093 --> 00:35:00,693
Speaker 4: reading because you need knowledge to disambiguate what you might

598
00:35:00,693 --> 00:35:04,453
Speaker 4: be reading and understand it. So you start from the basics,

599
00:35:04,733 --> 00:35:07,973
Speaker 4: you build, and then you start to become creative and

600
00:35:08,053 --> 00:35:13,493
Speaker 4: cit in your thinking once you have knowledge. Critical thinking

601
00:35:14,493 --> 00:35:18,733
Speaker 4: as a skill doesn't make sense. It's not something you

602
00:35:18,773 --> 00:35:24,053
Speaker 4: can teach. It's innate. But once you situate that critical

603
00:35:24,093 --> 00:35:28,653
Speaker 4: thinking in a domain, then you can critically think. It's

604
00:35:28,733 --> 00:35:33,413
Speaker 4: actually hard latent to transfer critical thinking across domains. A

605
00:35:33,573 --> 00:35:36,653
Speaker 4: doctor can critically think about the illness of a patient,

606
00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:39,453
Speaker 4: but if he doesn't know anything about engine, he can

607
00:35:39,493 --> 00:35:41,493
Speaker 4: stand there in the front of his engine and you

608
00:35:41,573 --> 00:35:43,973
Speaker 4: won't have a hope in hell of critically thinking about

609
00:35:44,013 --> 00:35:47,093
Speaker 4: what's wrong with the engine unless he has the knowledge

610
00:35:47,173 --> 00:35:49,893
Speaker 4: of how that engine operates. And yet we in New

611
00:35:50,013 --> 00:35:51,813
Speaker 4: Zealand seem to think that kids are going to go

612
00:35:51,853 --> 00:35:55,373
Speaker 4: to school and sit in front of in a group

613
00:35:55,493 --> 00:36:01,413
Speaker 4: and discover the knowledge because the primary thing seems to

614
00:36:01,453 --> 00:36:06,533
Speaker 4: be engagement. Now, look, engagement is important, there's no question,

615
00:36:06,813 --> 00:36:10,773
Speaker 4: you know, you really do want to engauge kids and learning.

616
00:36:11,533 --> 00:36:15,053
Speaker 4: But look, if I refer to the Machaya's School in

617
00:36:15,093 --> 00:36:20,013
Speaker 4: London and wonderful principal there I can't remember. I think

618
00:36:20,053 --> 00:36:25,773
Speaker 4: Catherine berber Berbersing. You know, she explains that they in

619
00:36:25,893 --> 00:36:29,253
Speaker 4: part knowledge to these inner city London kids, and the

620
00:36:29,373 --> 00:36:33,613
Speaker 4: kids lap it up. They like to be taught. And

621
00:36:33,653 --> 00:36:36,053
Speaker 4: I can't imagine that it's any different in New Zealand

622
00:36:36,053 --> 00:36:38,333
Speaker 4: that children want to learn.

623
00:36:39,853 --> 00:36:43,453
Speaker 2: Have you have you? Have you come across a school

624
00:36:43,493 --> 00:36:49,173
Speaker 2: in Sydney, a Liverpool called the Marsdian Road Primary School No.

625
00:36:50,253 --> 00:36:53,453
Speaker 2: About a month ago, five weeks maybe I interviewed the

626
00:36:54,053 --> 00:37:00,173
Speaker 2: headmaster or mistress if you like. The principal Miniesia Grizzouola

627
00:37:01,373 --> 00:37:06,933
Speaker 2: born in India and she has adopted pretty much the

628
00:37:06,933 --> 00:37:11,093
Speaker 2: same approach as the London school you referenced, and that principle.

629
00:37:11,493 --> 00:37:13,773
Speaker 2: I don't know whether she I don't think she stole

630
00:37:13,813 --> 00:37:17,613
Speaker 2: it from them. She grew up in much of her

631
00:37:17,773 --> 00:37:21,613
Speaker 2: younger life were spent in India and she learned things

632
00:37:21,613 --> 00:37:27,013
Speaker 2: for herself and she has run this school in that

633
00:37:27,173 --> 00:37:33,333
Speaker 2: manner and the school's rankings, the results have gone through

634
00:37:33,333 --> 00:37:36,133
Speaker 2: the roof. I can imagine and guess what. While she's

635
00:37:36,173 --> 00:37:41,293
Speaker 2: still there and an operating, there's concern in the system

636
00:37:41,373 --> 00:37:43,133
Speaker 2: that this might be catching.

637
00:37:44,613 --> 00:37:45,773
Speaker 3: You were why is that latey?

638
00:37:45,813 --> 00:37:50,173
Speaker 4: And why why are people scared of our children understanding

639
00:37:50,213 --> 00:37:51,093
Speaker 4: the knowledge of the world.

640
00:37:51,373 --> 00:37:53,413
Speaker 2: Well, I think we both know the answer, and so

641
00:37:53,533 --> 00:37:56,733
Speaker 2: do I think most people who are listening, and there

642
00:37:56,773 --> 00:38:00,933
Speaker 2: are other there are other alternatives that are preferred. Is

643
00:38:00,613 --> 00:38:04,973
Speaker 2: a simple way to put it. Let me move on

644
00:38:05,013 --> 00:38:08,293
Speaker 2: to because you've written I think eight articles so far

645
00:38:08,813 --> 00:38:12,213
Speaker 2: on the subject. Now, I don't know which ones you

646
00:38:12,253 --> 00:38:15,933
Speaker 2: think are the most important. I will make mention of

647
00:38:16,013 --> 00:38:19,653
Speaker 2: the teaching kids to love reading, but I think I

648
00:38:19,653 --> 00:38:24,733
Speaker 2: think that that that has become fairly fairly obvious. And

649
00:38:24,773 --> 00:38:28,813
Speaker 2: it's the shortest one of all. It's two pages, whereas

650
00:38:28,853 --> 00:38:32,373
Speaker 2: you're writing others like too much Zeal for co construction

651
00:38:32,453 --> 00:38:36,733
Speaker 2: in New Zealand classrooms is nine pages, and there's a

652
00:38:36,813 --> 00:38:40,253
Speaker 2: couple more that are at least that long. So what

653
00:38:40,413 --> 00:38:42,133
Speaker 2: did you Why did you move on? Just give us

654
00:38:42,133 --> 00:38:46,413
Speaker 2: an outline of what you were saying in article number two,

655
00:38:46,533 --> 00:38:47,613
Speaker 2: too Much Zeal.

656
00:38:47,893 --> 00:38:50,773
Speaker 4: Well, this goes back to this issue that we've been

657
00:38:50,813 --> 00:38:55,573
Speaker 4: talking about that I guess a good place to start

658
00:38:55,613 --> 00:38:58,293
Speaker 4: with us is my role at win Tech. I was

659
00:38:58,333 --> 00:39:02,653
Speaker 4: bringing teachers from China down to New Zealand. To show

660
00:39:02,893 --> 00:39:07,013
Speaker 4: them how we teach our polytechnics. And if you think

661
00:39:07,053 --> 00:39:10,293
Speaker 4: about education as being on a continuum, at one end

662
00:39:10,813 --> 00:39:14,653
Speaker 4: a road based learning instruction and didact what we call

663
00:39:14,773 --> 00:39:17,693
Speaker 4: didactic learning, and at the other end being you know,

664
00:39:18,093 --> 00:39:22,653
Speaker 4: discovery or inquiry based learning, which is based on construction

665
00:39:22,813 --> 00:39:26,453
Speaker 4: or in the New Zealand model, social constructivism, a sort

666
00:39:26,453 --> 00:39:31,573
Speaker 4: of a diological approach to teaching. The Chinese were in

667
00:39:31,733 --> 00:39:35,053
Speaker 4: our way up the one end of that system, the

668
00:39:35,813 --> 00:39:40,373
Speaker 4: didactic road based learning, and we very want to criticize

669
00:39:41,013 --> 00:39:44,133
Speaker 4: the Chinese for this, that there's no imagination in their students.

670
00:39:47,853 --> 00:39:53,453
Speaker 4: Bringing these teachers down from China, we were impressing upon

671
00:39:53,493 --> 00:39:55,933
Speaker 4: them the importance of getting students to think for themselves.

672
00:39:58,893 --> 00:40:02,413
Speaker 4: But what I started to see was as these Chinese

673
00:40:02,453 --> 00:40:05,173
Speaker 4: teachers were here, they started to ask questions about but

674
00:40:05,213 --> 00:40:08,253
Speaker 4: you know how these students don't seem to know stuff.

675
00:40:09,813 --> 00:40:13,893
Speaker 4: And eventually I got onto a discussion with some pretty

676
00:40:13,893 --> 00:40:17,133
Speaker 4: senior people in China who took the view that New

677
00:40:17,213 --> 00:40:23,333
Speaker 4: Zealand's gone too far. They they will absolutely introduced some

678
00:40:25,173 --> 00:40:28,133
Speaker 4: inquiry based learning, project based learning into their into their

679
00:40:28,253 --> 00:40:32,573
Speaker 4: education system, and there's a place for it, but to

680
00:40:32,653 --> 00:40:35,093
Speaker 4: do that without first and parting the knowledge just doesn't

681
00:40:35,133 --> 00:40:35,573
Speaker 4: make sense.

682
00:40:35,573 --> 00:40:37,813
Speaker 3: And this is this is where New Zealand it seems

683
00:40:37,813 --> 00:40:38,493
Speaker 3: to have gone wrong.

684
00:40:38,493 --> 00:40:41,493
Speaker 4: It's what what doctor Michael Johnston and others are picking

685
00:40:41,533 --> 00:40:41,773
Speaker 4: up on.

686
00:40:42,853 --> 00:40:45,053
Speaker 3: I think I refer to John Sweller earlier.

687
00:40:45,493 --> 00:40:49,653
Speaker 4: Also, both these gentlemen are talking about the fact that

688
00:40:49,973 --> 00:40:53,813
Speaker 4: you know, the when you learn to discover it all

689
00:40:53,853 --> 00:40:56,733
Speaker 4: yourself is a very very inefficient way to go about it.

690
00:40:57,333 --> 00:41:01,733
Speaker 4: When when you're taught knowledge, when you actually are young

691
00:41:01,773 --> 00:41:04,613
Speaker 4: and you've given that knowledge, it gives you the basis

692
00:41:05,133 --> 00:41:09,213
Speaker 4: to be creative and critical in your thinking in the future.

693
00:41:10,173 --> 00:41:13,493
Speaker 4: And we've just lost that. And I believe we've lost

694
00:41:13,493 --> 00:41:16,093
Speaker 4: it partly because there seems to be an ideology around

695
00:41:18,533 --> 00:41:22,453
Speaker 4: you know, the knowledge that's come from the age of reason,

696
00:41:22,653 --> 00:41:28,093
Speaker 4: the knowledge that's come from the Enlightenment, which ironically is

697
00:41:28,493 --> 00:41:31,573
Speaker 4: the sort of knowledge that has actually enabled modern states.

698
00:41:32,333 --> 00:41:36,773
Speaker 4: Modern liberty has freed women from the chains of servitude,

699
00:41:36,773 --> 00:41:40,333
Speaker 4: allowed them to enter the education system. And yet the

700
00:41:40,373 --> 00:41:43,773
Speaker 4: flood of women into education in the late nineties and

701
00:41:43,813 --> 00:41:51,853
Speaker 4: then their tendency to latch onto postmodernism, which rejects objectivity,

702
00:41:52,293 --> 00:41:57,853
Speaker 4: rejects any sort of objective morality, and rejects the patriarchy

703
00:41:59,053 --> 00:41:59,933
Speaker 4: in the Western system.

704
00:41:59,973 --> 00:42:00,533
Speaker 3: I think this is.

705
00:42:00,453 --> 00:42:05,293
Speaker 4: Where it's sort of the ideology combines with the concept

706
00:42:05,333 --> 00:42:10,213
Speaker 4: of co construction to cancel out any teaching of the

707
00:42:10,293 --> 00:42:13,493
Speaker 4: knowledge of the West. And that's a real problem because

708
00:42:13,533 --> 00:42:19,013
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's Newton or Galileo or Descartes or

709
00:42:19,133 --> 00:42:25,013
Speaker 4: Hume or Adam Smith, these thinkers have changed our world.

710
00:42:25,373 --> 00:42:28,813
Speaker 4: And you know, if you listen to someone like Stephen Pinker,

711
00:42:30,813 --> 00:42:32,973
Speaker 4: he'll talk about the fact that our world is a

712
00:42:33,013 --> 00:42:35,813
Speaker 4: far far better place than it was in the seventeenth century.

713
00:42:35,933 --> 00:42:39,933
Speaker 4: There's far less violence, there's far more opportunity for people,

714
00:42:39,973 --> 00:42:43,693
Speaker 4: and although the West has benefited from that more than most,

715
00:42:44,453 --> 00:42:47,493
Speaker 4: until recently the rest of the world was starting to

716
00:42:47,533 --> 00:42:51,373
Speaker 4: catch up, which Laden goes to in issue around you know,

717
00:42:51,453 --> 00:42:54,733
Speaker 4: globalization that I would like to talk about if we could,

718
00:42:54,733 --> 00:42:58,493
Speaker 4: but because we're heading into a period of deglobalization away

719
00:42:58,533 --> 00:43:00,693
Speaker 4: from free trade, and I know I'm going off on

720
00:43:00,773 --> 00:43:03,613
Speaker 4: a tangent here, but I think it's very dangerous.

721
00:43:03,173 --> 00:43:06,733
Speaker 3: For the world. But look, coming back to this issue

722
00:43:06,893 --> 00:43:08,053
Speaker 3: of too much zeal.

723
00:43:10,053 --> 00:43:13,413
Speaker 4: There's why I'm saying that is anybody who sort of says,

724
00:43:13,733 --> 00:43:16,333
Speaker 4: why don't we get kids to do a bit of

725
00:43:16,493 --> 00:43:21,053
Speaker 4: drilling on the Times table or on history. Why don't

726
00:43:21,053 --> 00:43:23,013
Speaker 4: we impart this information? You tend to sort of get

727
00:43:23,053 --> 00:43:27,013
Speaker 4: looked at as if you're talking some strange sort of language,

728
00:43:27,093 --> 00:43:29,813
Speaker 4: like why would we do that? But I think underneath

729
00:43:29,853 --> 00:43:31,613
Speaker 4: that as an ideology.

730
00:43:32,613 --> 00:43:34,373
Speaker 2: How would you describe that ideology?

731
00:43:36,853 --> 00:43:42,133
Speaker 4: It's definitely coming from a Marxist base. It's kind of

732
00:43:42,173 --> 00:43:45,533
Speaker 4: a Marxism rolled into postmodernism. And you mean you hear

733
00:43:45,653 --> 00:43:50,453
Speaker 4: that the education departments or universities, they're big fans of

734
00:43:51,013 --> 00:43:53,453
Speaker 4: fu Co and a writer and all of these thinkers

735
00:43:53,853 --> 00:43:56,773
Speaker 4: who see everything in terms of power.

736
00:43:58,253 --> 00:44:03,493
Speaker 2: And you mean like the you mean like the Democrat Party.

737
00:44:04,093 --> 00:44:11,173
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, the American medical system is beyond my comprehension.

738
00:44:11,173 --> 00:44:13,613
Speaker 4: To be honest, I can't quite believe we've got a

739
00:44:13,613 --> 00:44:20,253
Speaker 4: situation where, too, you know, geriatric candidates are running for

740
00:44:20,333 --> 00:44:22,173
Speaker 4: power in a country where there's three hundred and fifty

741
00:44:22,213 --> 00:44:25,373
Speaker 4: million people. But certainly the Democrats seem to have lost

742
00:44:25,413 --> 00:44:30,213
Speaker 4: their minds and the Republican Party has lost its.

743
00:44:31,733 --> 00:44:32,093
Speaker 3: Mojo.

744
00:44:32,293 --> 00:44:34,613
Speaker 4: It's been taken over by Trump. For whatever you think

745
00:44:34,613 --> 00:44:37,933
Speaker 4: of Trump, he now owns that party. And I think

746
00:44:37,973 --> 00:44:43,533
Speaker 4: they're in a mess as well, so, yeah, I sound conscious,

747
00:44:43,573 --> 00:44:45,813
Speaker 4: I'm sounding a bit negative on everything, but it is.

748
00:44:45,893 --> 00:44:48,613
Speaker 3: It is a very challenging environment over there.

749
00:44:48,653 --> 00:44:50,853
Speaker 2: I'm not responding to you because I have an idea

750
00:44:50,853 --> 00:44:55,613
Speaker 2: and I will explain it before we conclude the other

751
00:44:55,733 --> 00:44:59,693
Speaker 2: articles that you've written, of those which to you are

752
00:44:59,253 --> 00:45:03,133
Speaker 2: the most relevant for our purposes.

753
00:45:02,893 --> 00:45:04,973
Speaker 3: Oh, look, they're all They're all relevant. I think I

754
00:45:05,013 --> 00:45:09,133
Speaker 3: think that the just very quickly.

755
00:45:08,773 --> 00:45:12,133
Speaker 4: On the modern learning environments or the innovative learning environments,

756
00:45:12,213 --> 00:45:14,693
Speaker 4: that the amount of money that's been spent on this

757
00:45:14,733 --> 00:45:17,053
Speaker 4: country creating barns that are going to be very difficult

758
00:45:17,093 --> 00:45:21,213
Speaker 4: for children to learn in is just astonishing. Going back

759
00:45:21,213 --> 00:45:25,213
Speaker 4: to John Sweller, his theory around cognitive load suggests that

760
00:45:26,373 --> 00:45:27,613
Speaker 4: two really critical things.

761
00:45:27,653 --> 00:45:28,813
Speaker 3: One that our.

762
00:45:30,133 --> 00:45:33,453
Speaker 4: Working memory is limited in its capacity, but if you

763
00:45:33,893 --> 00:45:38,173
Speaker 4: have information loaded into your long term memory, then you

764
00:45:38,213 --> 00:45:42,013
Speaker 4: can easily access that back into your working memory without

765
00:45:42,053 --> 00:45:47,013
Speaker 4: too much cognitive load. Other things that can put cognitive

766
00:45:47,013 --> 00:45:48,213
Speaker 4: load on the working memory.

767
00:45:48,293 --> 00:45:50,773
Speaker 2: Just give us, sorry, just give us a definition of

768
00:45:50,813 --> 00:45:51,613
Speaker 2: cognitive load.

769
00:45:52,573 --> 00:45:55,053
Speaker 4: So so you know, the minds and the mind's an

770
00:45:55,093 --> 00:45:57,093
Speaker 4: amazing thing, and some of these things are sort of

771
00:45:57,533 --> 00:46:00,813
Speaker 4: illustrative of how it works rather than actually how it works.

772
00:46:00,853 --> 00:46:03,853
Speaker 3: But in the you have it. You have a working

773
00:46:03,893 --> 00:46:05,253
Speaker 3: memory where the work.

774
00:46:05,173 --> 00:46:10,573
Speaker 4: Is done, where an executive executive level your brain is operating,

775
00:46:10,613 --> 00:46:12,653
Speaker 4: and then in your long term memory, where we've got

776
00:46:13,013 --> 00:46:17,173
Speaker 4: a lot of memory stored in our brains, that the

777
00:46:17,253 --> 00:46:20,573
Speaker 4: working memory can access that long term memory, so that

778
00:46:21,093 --> 00:46:23,813
Speaker 4: the load he's talking about is in the executive functionary,

779
00:46:24,653 --> 00:46:28,893
Speaker 4: in the executive function in the working memory. When it

780
00:46:28,933 --> 00:46:31,653
Speaker 4: comes to distraction, sorry, when it comes to the modern

781
00:46:31,693 --> 00:46:35,213
Speaker 4: learning environments, one of the problems that they create is

782
00:46:35,253 --> 00:46:40,093
Speaker 4: the noise and the visual distraction of so many children

783
00:46:40,493 --> 00:46:44,773
Speaker 4: in a modern learning environment actually adds to cognitive load,

784
00:46:45,093 --> 00:46:48,653
Speaker 4: which is a problem because it does then overwhelm a child,

785
00:46:48,733 --> 00:46:53,853
Speaker 4: and particularly children with problems like ADHD. They just can't

786
00:46:54,253 --> 00:46:56,893
Speaker 4: handle that environment. And I also suspect the teachers find

787
00:46:56,933 --> 00:47:00,693
Speaker 4: it extremely difficult to handle the environment of being in

788
00:47:00,733 --> 00:47:03,613
Speaker 4: a room with sixty kids all day long, all competing

789
00:47:03,613 --> 00:47:07,933
Speaker 4: for their attention and in a discovery based mode, not

790
00:47:08,053 --> 00:47:10,013
Speaker 4: listening to them, but being told to get on and

791
00:47:10,013 --> 00:47:14,093
Speaker 4: do things and work in groups. So anyway, the point

792
00:47:14,093 --> 00:47:17,973
Speaker 4: there is that there's been a lot of money spent

793
00:47:19,013 --> 00:47:24,773
Speaker 4: building these monolithic structures that align with the discovery based

794
00:47:24,853 --> 00:47:27,613
Speaker 4: learning model, which modern.

795
00:47:27,333 --> 00:47:30,173
Speaker 3: Science says is not a good way of teaching teaching children.

796
00:47:31,653 --> 00:47:34,893
Speaker 4: In the other articles, and particularly my most more recent articles,

797
00:47:35,093 --> 00:47:39,333
Speaker 4: I'm talking about issues that go to social media and

798
00:47:39,733 --> 00:47:43,733
Speaker 4: some of the damage that's been caused. The education industry

799
00:47:43,773 --> 00:47:46,093
Speaker 4: here in New Zealand seems to think that children need

800
00:47:46,133 --> 00:47:50,373
Speaker 4: to learn how to use the technology. Ignore the fact

801
00:47:50,413 --> 00:47:52,013
Speaker 4: that most of us are aware that our kids can

802
00:47:52,053 --> 00:47:57,733
Speaker 4: actually use smartphones and iPads and most software more insuratively

803
00:47:57,813 --> 00:48:00,933
Speaker 4: as digital natives than any of us. I don't need

804
00:48:00,973 --> 00:48:02,933
Speaker 4: more time on these things. They need to be taught

805
00:48:03,853 --> 00:48:06,733
Speaker 4: the basics. So I'm a big fan of Jonathan Height

806
00:48:06,773 --> 00:48:11,333
Speaker 4: in this area books. On his latest book on The

807
00:48:11,373 --> 00:48:14,813
Speaker 4: Anxious Mind, talks about four norms which I wrote about

808
00:48:14,853 --> 00:48:20,333
Speaker 4: us adopting if we could in one of my more

809
00:48:20,333 --> 00:48:23,413
Speaker 4: recent articles, and he's Those four norms that he's talking

810
00:48:23,453 --> 00:48:29,053
Speaker 4: about are no smartphones before high school, no phones at school,

811
00:48:29,893 --> 00:48:34,573
Speaker 4: no social media before sixteen, and more independent and free

812
00:48:34,613 --> 00:48:40,213
Speaker 4: played out in the real world. He cites research that

813
00:48:40,293 --> 00:48:43,813
Speaker 4: shows that the average, not not some teenagers, the average

814
00:48:43,853 --> 00:48:48,173
Speaker 4: teenager in America spends nine hours a day on social media.

815
00:48:48,653 --> 00:48:49,373
Speaker 2: Hard to believe.

816
00:48:50,333 --> 00:48:52,813
Speaker 4: It is hard to believe, but not not when you've

817
00:48:52,813 --> 00:48:56,093
Speaker 4: seen teenagers playing video games and other things at night.

818
00:48:57,933 --> 00:49:00,733
Speaker 4: But if we take that time away from kids and

819
00:49:01,093 --> 00:49:03,333
Speaker 4: redirect them into the real world, we all have to

820
00:49:03,333 --> 00:49:07,173
Speaker 4: make an effort to allow that to happen and put

821
00:49:07,213 --> 00:49:09,293
Speaker 4: the scaffolding around that to allow that happen. And that

822
00:49:09,493 --> 00:49:12,493
Speaker 4: goes back to us, back against the community and and

823
00:49:13,413 --> 00:49:15,173
Speaker 4: you know, not being afraid to put out our kids

824
00:49:15,173 --> 00:49:15,733
Speaker 4: outside and.

825
00:49:15,693 --> 00:49:17,093
Speaker 3: Say go on your bikes go.

826
00:49:17,293 --> 00:49:19,093
Speaker 4: You know, look at look at the number of schools

827
00:49:19,133 --> 00:49:22,213
Speaker 4: around New Zealand where it's a bridlock to get into

828
00:49:22,213 --> 00:49:25,893
Speaker 4: school because every kid is going to school in an suv.

829
00:49:27,653 --> 00:49:28,333
Speaker 3: In case they.

830
00:49:28,213 --> 00:49:32,493
Speaker 4: Get you abducted on the streets. Well, is that is

831
00:49:32,533 --> 00:49:34,973
Speaker 4: that really going to happen? And if it is, why

832
00:49:35,093 --> 00:49:37,453
Speaker 4: is it happening? You know, have we lost our communal

833
00:49:37,533 --> 00:49:41,653
Speaker 4: values that we can't look out for each other's kids.

834
00:49:42,013 --> 00:49:43,653
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's more than that. I think there's

835
00:49:43,693 --> 00:49:48,493
Speaker 2: the danger of traffic that deserves a lot of a

836
00:49:48,493 --> 00:49:52,333
Speaker 2: lot of parents, plus the fact that some of them

837
00:49:52,533 --> 00:49:54,853
Speaker 2: I don't I have no idea on I can't put

838
00:49:54,893 --> 00:49:58,413
Speaker 2: a figure on it. But some of them live quite

839
00:49:58,453 --> 00:50:01,533
Speaker 2: a distance away from schools where where in this day

840
00:50:01,573 --> 00:50:05,613
Speaker 2: and age. Going back to the traffic scenario, it really,

841
00:50:05,773 --> 00:50:07,013
Speaker 2: it really is unnerving.

842
00:50:08,413 --> 00:50:11,813
Speaker 4: Look, I don't doubt that I and I sound somewhat disingenuous,

843
00:50:11,853 --> 00:50:15,453
Speaker 4: even to myself, because I'm guilty of this helicopter parenting myself.

844
00:50:15,733 --> 00:50:19,253
Speaker 4: And you know, and but we somehow need to convince

845
00:50:19,333 --> 00:50:22,493
Speaker 4: ourselves that and start with the small things. There's a

846
00:50:22,573 --> 00:50:24,493
Speaker 4: there's an organization that I refer to in one of

847
00:50:24,493 --> 00:50:28,813
Speaker 4: those articles called Let Grow in the United States, and

848
00:50:30,333 --> 00:50:33,613
Speaker 4: they are starting to just encourage parents to do the

849
00:50:33,653 --> 00:50:35,613
Speaker 4: smallest things to get their kids to be a little

850
00:50:35,613 --> 00:50:39,573
Speaker 4: bit more independent and take take trips, go into the

851
00:50:39,573 --> 00:50:42,413
Speaker 4: shop themselves, those sort of things, just just to build

852
00:50:42,453 --> 00:50:46,333
Speaker 4: that independence and agency. Otherwise, you know, it may be

853
00:50:46,413 --> 00:50:48,973
Speaker 4: that our kids will get killed or injured on the roads.

854
00:50:49,613 --> 00:50:52,653
Speaker 4: But there's a there's a growing suicide problem in New Zealand,

855
00:50:52,653 --> 00:50:57,053
Speaker 4: which is the tip of a mental health problem which

856
00:50:57,093 --> 00:50:59,813
Speaker 4: is which is growing rapidly. That our kids have anxiety

857
00:50:59,813 --> 00:51:03,533
Speaker 4: and depression because they've been taught by parents that the

858
00:51:03,533 --> 00:51:07,453
Speaker 4: world's not safe, that they aren't competent to go out

859
00:51:07,493 --> 00:51:08,093
Speaker 4: into the world.

860
00:51:08,573 --> 00:51:09,653
Speaker 3: And we all, we all.

861
00:51:09,493 --> 00:51:13,853
Speaker 4: Just need to be a little bit more optimistic about

862
00:51:13,893 --> 00:51:16,413
Speaker 4: our ability, our kid's ability to cope in the world

863
00:51:16,613 --> 00:51:20,573
Speaker 4: and let them go and scrape their knees. I'm not

864
00:51:20,813 --> 00:51:23,413
Speaker 4: I'm not disagreeing with you about you know, the roads

865
00:51:23,533 --> 00:51:26,933
Speaker 4: we need. We the traffic does move fast, and so

866
00:51:27,013 --> 00:51:30,493
Speaker 4: you have to be sensible. But there are opportunities for

867
00:51:30,573 --> 00:51:34,733
Speaker 4: us as a society to collectively ensure that our children

868
00:51:34,773 --> 00:51:36,533
Speaker 4: get more free and independent play.

869
00:51:36,653 --> 00:51:39,493
Speaker 2: And I agree with you completely by the way, falling

870
00:51:39,533 --> 00:51:41,853
Speaker 2: off swings and breaking your arm or something which one

871
00:51:41,893 --> 00:51:47,053
Speaker 2: of mine did is a lesson in life exactly. And

872
00:51:47,093 --> 00:51:49,213
Speaker 2: it's not pleasant to break your arm, not that I'd know,

873
00:51:49,533 --> 00:51:53,973
Speaker 2: but by the same token, that's how you learn through experience,

874
00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:56,893
Speaker 2: and you can transfer that learning breaking your army by

875
00:51:56,933 --> 00:52:00,133
Speaker 2: being silly on a swing to other things as well.

876
00:52:00,693 --> 00:52:06,093
Speaker 2: There's something that you you mentioned that's that's triggered off

877
00:52:06,093 --> 00:52:10,933
Speaker 2: a question I had when when I was reading and

878
00:52:10,973 --> 00:52:14,053
Speaker 2: I have read pretty much all of the articles that

879
00:52:14,093 --> 00:52:19,773
Speaker 2: you've written so far. Are our boys failing school or

880
00:52:19,853 --> 00:52:23,213
Speaker 2: are the schools fading our boys? Now, before you jump in,

881
00:52:24,413 --> 00:52:27,613
Speaker 2: the question that I that I have is the boys

882
00:52:27,613 --> 00:52:31,293
Speaker 2: are supposed to be the ones who are falling behind.

883
00:52:32,053 --> 00:52:38,693
Speaker 2: But when it comes to social media and the influence

884
00:52:38,733 --> 00:52:43,493
Speaker 2: that it has. The influence is far greater on girls

885
00:52:43,533 --> 00:52:47,493
Speaker 2: negatively on that it is on boys. And I can't yes,

886
00:52:47,533 --> 00:52:52,173
Speaker 2: I can remember the figures girls. There's a big growth

887
00:52:52,173 --> 00:52:56,413
Speaker 2: in girls having psychological problems, and the figure I was

888
00:52:56,453 --> 00:53:00,013
Speaker 2: thinking of was thirty percent, and the boys, by comparison.

889
00:52:59,493 --> 00:52:59,893
Speaker 4: Are.

890
00:53:02,093 --> 00:53:07,373
Speaker 3: Twelve Yeah, twelve percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's in the

891
00:53:07,493 --> 00:53:08,133
Speaker 3: United States.

892
00:53:08,453 --> 00:53:10,733
Speaker 4: You're absolutely right when it comes to when it comes

893
00:53:10,733 --> 00:53:12,333
Speaker 4: to social media.

894
00:53:13,013 --> 00:53:16,053
Speaker 3: Girls are really vulnerable.

895
00:53:16,293 --> 00:53:22,293
Speaker 4: And you know, there's there's a growing body of evidence

896
00:53:22,333 --> 00:53:28,493
Speaker 4: that suggests that the you know, the negative impacts of

897
00:53:28,933 --> 00:53:34,533
Speaker 4: a constant requirement for validation, the constant exposure to what

898
00:53:34,573 --> 00:53:38,533
Speaker 4: other people are doing in the world leads to kids,

899
00:53:38,813 --> 00:53:42,253
Speaker 4: and particularly girls, become becoming a little bit more neurotic

900
00:53:42,293 --> 00:53:44,853
Speaker 4: about what's going on and worried that they're not going

901
00:53:44,933 --> 00:53:48,373
Speaker 4: to cut it. They're also, you know, prone to being

902
00:53:48,693 --> 00:53:52,813
Speaker 4: cyber bullied. So in that respect, yeah, there is a

903
00:53:52,853 --> 00:53:56,933
Speaker 4: problem for girls, and that's that's a good reason to

904
00:53:57,013 --> 00:54:00,293
Speaker 4: ban social media for people under sixteen.

905
00:54:00,413 --> 00:54:03,293
Speaker 2: Two things I want to sorry, yeah, no, go ahead.

906
00:54:03,533 --> 00:54:08,893
Speaker 2: Two things I want to string together. The collapse of morality,

907
00:54:10,093 --> 00:54:15,453
Speaker 2: that's a question for you. And sex in teaching because

908
00:54:15,453 --> 00:54:19,813
Speaker 2: the two the two are very closely logged in together.

909
00:54:21,253 --> 00:54:23,333
Speaker 2: Have we had a collapse of morality do you think

910
00:54:23,373 --> 00:54:25,653
Speaker 2: in Western society?

911
00:54:26,813 --> 00:54:29,573
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think we have. And I think one

912
00:54:29,613 --> 00:54:32,533
Speaker 4: of the issues that that's a real problem for our

913
00:54:32,573 --> 00:54:35,693
Speaker 4: society is and it's one of the issues that kind

914
00:54:35,693 --> 00:54:37,813
Speaker 4: of counters the Age of Enlightenment. If you are a

915
00:54:37,853 --> 00:54:40,293
Speaker 4: religious person. The Age of Enlightenment really taught us all

916
00:54:40,333 --> 00:54:45,253
Speaker 4: to be skeptical, to think of ourselves as universal people,

917
00:54:45,333 --> 00:54:48,213
Speaker 4: but also to obviously, you know, question God. You know,

918
00:54:48,453 --> 00:54:53,413
Speaker 4: as Nietzsche's premasy said, we've killed God. And as people

919
00:54:53,653 --> 00:54:59,173
Speaker 4: have come away from religion as their sort of arbiter,

920
00:54:59,573 --> 00:55:01,933
Speaker 4: a God is their arbituter of their lives. In following

921
00:55:01,933 --> 00:55:06,013
Speaker 4: the prestrict of the structures of a religion, everyone's been

922
00:55:06,053 --> 00:55:09,133
Speaker 4: searching for a new set of ethics.

923
00:55:09,453 --> 00:55:12,053
Speaker 3: And you know, there are the new atheists like.

924
00:55:12,093 --> 00:55:15,213
Speaker 4: Dawkins and others, and various ethicists around the world Peter

925
00:55:15,293 --> 00:55:18,213
Speaker 4: Singer out of Australia who are pointing to a new

926
00:55:18,413 --> 00:55:22,173
Speaker 4: set of ethics, but they're very hard for people to

927
00:55:22,253 --> 00:55:25,973
Speaker 4: latch onto, and it's much easier for people to latch

928
00:55:26,013 --> 00:55:30,853
Speaker 4: onto the new religion of postmodernism more than the new

929
00:55:30,893 --> 00:55:35,493
Speaker 4: religion of you know, really a name. Stuff like that

930
00:55:35,533 --> 00:55:38,773
Speaker 4: comes across on TikTok so. I think people are a

931
00:55:38,813 --> 00:55:42,773
Speaker 4: little lost there. It does seem to be a movement

932
00:55:42,933 --> 00:55:44,093
Speaker 4: back towards religion.

933
00:55:44,773 --> 00:55:45,933
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what the answer is.

934
00:55:46,013 --> 00:55:49,373
Speaker 4: Later, and I was brought up as a Catholic, I

935
00:55:49,493 --> 00:55:53,613
Speaker 4: very much became agnostic and almost an atheist, and now

936
00:55:53,653 --> 00:55:54,653
Speaker 4: I don't know where I am.

937
00:55:54,693 --> 00:55:56,493
Speaker 3: To be honest, I always find.

938
00:55:56,293 --> 00:56:01,653
Speaker 4: It impossible to reject the possibility of a god. But

939
00:56:02,773 --> 00:56:05,853
Speaker 4: as a society, we have such a plurality of thinking

940
00:56:05,893 --> 00:56:09,493
Speaker 4: on this that it's difficult to get and shared values

941
00:56:09,533 --> 00:56:14,493
Speaker 4: around what the ethics and society should be. Albeit that

942
00:56:14,533 --> 00:56:16,453
Speaker 4: if we went back to the basics, I think nearly

943
00:56:16,493 --> 00:56:20,853
Speaker 4: every society does agree on something that looks close to

944
00:56:20,893 --> 00:56:22,413
Speaker 4: the Ten Commandments.

945
00:56:22,813 --> 00:56:26,773
Speaker 2: I think that's a rather wise summation. Actually, sex and teaching.

946
00:56:27,613 --> 00:56:30,253
Speaker 2: Is there a place in schools for sex education?

947
00:56:31,253 --> 00:56:33,653
Speaker 4: Yeah, I absolutely think there's a place in schools for

948
00:56:34,213 --> 00:56:39,293
Speaker 4: sex education. You know, the world changed, what is it,

949
00:56:39,413 --> 00:56:42,413
Speaker 4: you know, in the sixties when when women finally got

950
00:56:42,453 --> 00:56:47,773
Speaker 4: control of their fertility. It's probably the biggest sociological change

951
00:56:48,253 --> 00:56:53,893
Speaker 4: in the history of humans of humankind. There's no doubt

952
00:56:54,253 --> 00:56:57,653
Speaker 4: that you know, we should put our heads in the

953
00:56:57,693 --> 00:56:59,733
Speaker 4: sand and ignore the sexual revolution.

954
00:57:00,453 --> 00:57:01,453
Speaker 3: And I think in the.

955
00:57:01,413 --> 00:57:05,653
Speaker 4: Modern day world we need to be clear that the

956
00:57:05,693 --> 00:57:09,133
Speaker 4: world is operating differently. So kids do need to be aware,

957
00:57:09,413 --> 00:57:12,293
Speaker 4: particularly young girls, They do need to be aware of

958
00:57:13,093 --> 00:57:16,293
Speaker 4: their sexuality. They need to understand contraception, they need to

959
00:57:16,373 --> 00:57:19,533
Speaker 4: understand the basics. The problem I have is there seems

960
00:57:19,533 --> 00:57:23,173
Speaker 4: to be a growing push to do that at a

961
00:57:23,213 --> 00:57:27,253
Speaker 4: younger and younger age, and it just seems insane to

962
00:57:27,333 --> 00:57:32,493
Speaker 4: me to be teaching kids before puberty, at a very

963
00:57:32,533 --> 00:57:36,293
Speaker 4: young age, about all sorts of sexual practices that you

964
00:57:36,693 --> 00:57:39,933
Speaker 4: and I wouldn't have known about until we were quite mature.

965
00:57:40,613 --> 00:57:42,933
Speaker 2: Well, I can give you a reason for it. It's

966
00:57:42,973 --> 00:57:47,293
Speaker 2: very simple. Whose are being run by introduced and run

967
00:57:47,293 --> 00:57:51,013
Speaker 2: by devians? Well, you may well be right, and and

968
00:57:51,013 --> 00:57:53,173
Speaker 2: they're getting away with it, specifically in the States. Look,

969
00:57:53,613 --> 00:57:56,933
Speaker 2: I've I lied a long time ago that what happens

970
00:57:56,933 --> 00:58:00,173
Speaker 2: in America it used to be starting in California, but

971
00:58:00,333 --> 00:58:03,013
Speaker 2: now that it can come from anywhere almost. But what

972
00:58:03,053 --> 00:58:05,773
Speaker 2: happens in America finds its way into the rest of

973
00:58:05,813 --> 00:58:12,133
Speaker 2: the world, particularly the Western world. Countries and you can

974
00:58:12,213 --> 00:58:15,613
Speaker 2: see it in advance, and of more recent times it's

975
00:58:15,693 --> 00:58:18,573
Speaker 2: become something of a surprise to me at the speed

976
00:58:18,693 --> 00:58:20,893
Speaker 2: at which it moves. Now I'm about to give you

977
00:58:20,933 --> 00:58:26,253
Speaker 2: an example of what I'm talking about, and it is

978
00:58:26,333 --> 00:58:30,413
Speaker 2: something that stunned me over the weekend. In the weekend

979
00:58:30,453 --> 00:58:35,813
Speaker 2: Australian a woman who is qualified to cover this sort

980
00:58:35,813 --> 00:58:39,413
Speaker 2: of thing about a situation in Wales of all places,

981
00:58:40,053 --> 00:58:45,253
Speaker 2: where boys have been asking teachers in class, how do

982
00:58:45,333 --> 00:58:52,693
Speaker 2: we conduct choking during sex? And the answer is pornography. Essentially,

983
00:58:52,973 --> 00:58:57,493
Speaker 2: they're seeing it in pornography. She even indicates in the

984
00:58:57,573 --> 00:59:01,853
Speaker 2: article that the girls themselves are if not believing there,

985
00:59:02,053 --> 00:59:05,333
Speaker 2: then they're they're in motion to accepting that this is

986
00:59:05,453 --> 00:59:10,653
Speaker 2: part of it, and the boys are believing that the

987
00:59:10,693 --> 00:59:16,573
Speaker 2: girls wanted m hm m it did head. No, it

988
00:59:16,573 --> 00:59:18,413
Speaker 2: does my head. And I think you know, and this

989
00:59:18,533 --> 00:59:21,173
Speaker 2: is clearly down to pornography. This is clearly down to

990
00:59:22,533 --> 00:59:23,293
Speaker 2: there seems to be.

991
00:59:23,333 --> 00:59:25,533
Speaker 4: I think it's well known that, you know, as as

992
00:59:26,213 --> 00:59:29,213
Speaker 4: people use pornography more and more, they have a tendency

993
00:59:29,253 --> 00:59:31,693
Speaker 4: to go to more and more extremes, and of course,

994
00:59:32,653 --> 00:59:35,933
Speaker 4: like any of these algorithms that it's operating on a

995
00:59:36,013 --> 00:59:42,253
Speaker 4: on a app or on the internet. The algorithm, algorithm

996
00:59:42,293 --> 00:59:45,773
Speaker 4: is designed to tatilate and trigger you more and more.

997
00:59:45,813 --> 00:59:47,253
Speaker 3: And the same is true of porn.

998
00:59:47,373 --> 00:59:51,173
Speaker 4: So where once porn might have shown a beautiful expression

999
00:59:51,173 --> 00:59:56,133
Speaker 4: of love. And you know, I'm not totally condemnatrip. I

1000
00:59:56,173 --> 01:00:00,613
Speaker 4: don't condemn pornography entirely, but it certainly should.

1001
01:00:00,413 --> 01:00:01,253
Speaker 3: Be used by adults.

1002
01:00:01,253 --> 01:00:03,653
Speaker 4: But where where people are being shown more and more

1003
01:00:03,693 --> 01:00:07,973
Speaker 4: extreme porn, and especially at very young ages, of course,

1004
01:00:08,013 --> 01:00:11,133
Speaker 4: they're going to start to normalize that's what you do.

1005
01:00:12,013 --> 01:00:18,373
Speaker 4: And and choking is an extremely dangerous thing to do,

1006
01:00:18,813 --> 01:00:21,253
Speaker 4: and the fact that our young children even know about

1007
01:00:21,293 --> 01:00:22,573
Speaker 4: it is just astonished.

1008
01:00:22,613 --> 01:00:25,453
Speaker 2: One question you mentioned was a boy asked the teacher,

1009
01:00:26,253 --> 01:00:30,093
Speaker 2: how do I bring my girlfriend round after she's passed out?

1010
01:00:30,573 --> 01:00:32,613
Speaker 3: Oh? My god, exact there.

1011
01:00:35,173 --> 01:00:38,573
Speaker 2: It's astonishing, but not really surprising when you think about it,

1012
01:00:39,093 --> 01:00:41,253
Speaker 2: especially on the back of your explanation A mo bit ago.

1013
01:00:42,053 --> 01:00:45,893
Speaker 3: No, well exactly. And this is the great irony of

1014
01:00:45,933 --> 01:00:46,493
Speaker 3: all of this is.

1015
01:00:48,893 --> 01:00:51,533
Speaker 4: We're trying to keep our children safe in the natural environment,

1016
01:00:51,533 --> 01:00:54,933
Speaker 4: and we expose them to these sort of things online.

1017
01:00:54,973 --> 01:00:57,333
Speaker 4: We have This is where height is right. We need

1018
01:00:57,773 --> 01:01:00,613
Speaker 4: to get kids off this stuff until they've got a

1019
01:01:00,733 --> 01:01:04,933
Speaker 4: level of maturity that they can understand what's happening here.

1020
01:01:04,973 --> 01:01:06,693
Speaker 4: I mean, you're seeing the same thing with the hookup

1021
01:01:06,733 --> 01:01:11,253
Speaker 4: culture in in young people there, you know, and I'm

1022
01:01:11,333 --> 01:01:14,893
Speaker 4: sure that girls ultimately understand that this is not good

1023
01:01:14,933 --> 01:01:18,293
Speaker 4: for them. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that,

1024
01:01:18,453 --> 01:01:21,653
Speaker 4: you know, the top twenty percent of boys get to

1025
01:01:21,653 --> 01:01:26,093
Speaker 4: pick from all the girls because the girls want to

1026
01:01:26,133 --> 01:01:31,373
Speaker 4: be with the nicest looking, most sporty boy. If there's

1027
01:01:31,413 --> 01:01:33,853
Speaker 4: a belief that those girls have and they you know,

1028
01:01:33,893 --> 01:01:37,893
Speaker 4: the girls genuinely want love, but the boys will just

1029
01:01:37,973 --> 01:01:40,573
Speaker 4: keep moving on and they're eventually going to be left

1030
01:01:41,453 --> 01:01:48,053
Speaker 4: feeling neglected, sad because they've participated in a culture that

1031
01:01:48,173 --> 01:01:53,093
Speaker 4: is just so shallow. And we need to get back

1032
01:01:53,133 --> 01:01:55,653
Speaker 4: to a situation where you know, they have a word

1033
01:01:55,653 --> 01:01:55,853
Speaker 4: for it.

1034
01:01:55,893 --> 01:01:57,973
Speaker 3: These days, you know that you meet in the wild

1035
01:01:58,613 --> 01:01:59,493
Speaker 3: so many boys.

1036
01:01:59,493 --> 01:02:01,773
Speaker 4: I've talked to boys at universities who can't find a

1037
01:02:01,813 --> 01:02:04,933
Speaker 4: girlfriend because the girls say, well, if I wanted to

1038
01:02:04,973 --> 01:02:08,813
Speaker 4: have sex, I just go on tender you know, so

1039
01:02:08,933 --> 01:02:11,173
Speaker 4: back off. So, you know, even just to chat up

1040
01:02:11,213 --> 01:02:14,333
Speaker 4: a girl as a young man these days is problematic.

1041
01:02:14,733 --> 01:02:17,933
Speaker 4: Where does that leave our young men. They're both kind

1042
01:02:17,973 --> 01:02:22,213
Speaker 4: of over feminized by their education and then presented with

1043
01:02:22,253 --> 01:02:25,093
Speaker 4: an impossibly difficult task of finding a partner.

1044
01:02:25,853 --> 01:02:26,493
Speaker 3: It's not good.

1045
01:02:27,933 --> 01:02:30,133
Speaker 2: Give me a brief on the feminization of education.

1046
01:02:31,973 --> 01:02:33,933
Speaker 3: Well, like, it's always a difficult one to go into.

1047
01:02:33,973 --> 01:02:36,053
Speaker 4: And I would say at the outset that it's you know,

1048
01:02:36,973 --> 01:02:40,973
Speaker 4: in danger of being accused of a being a misogynist.

1049
01:02:41,653 --> 01:02:45,933
Speaker 3: But you know, I think I've always believed that there's a.

1050
01:02:45,973 --> 01:02:50,173
Speaker 4: Balance between the sexes, between the masculine and the feminine.

1051
01:02:50,693 --> 01:02:53,213
Speaker 3: There are two biological sexes.

1052
01:02:53,213 --> 01:02:57,213
Speaker 4: By the way, later maybe there may be more fluidity

1053
01:02:57,253 --> 01:02:59,853
Speaker 4: and gender, but there are just two biological sexes.

1054
01:02:59,893 --> 01:03:01,013
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a fellow traveler.

1055
01:03:01,853 --> 01:03:02,053
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1056
01:03:02,173 --> 01:03:06,773
Speaker 4: And at the end of the day, our schools have

1057
01:03:06,813 --> 01:03:11,853
Speaker 4: become flooded with particularly primary schools, with women and women

1058
01:03:11,973 --> 01:03:16,933
Speaker 4: both teaching and in leadership roles, and women quite rightly

1059
01:03:17,413 --> 01:03:20,813
Speaker 4: are the cares in society when when you know, women

1060
01:03:22,013 --> 01:03:25,133
Speaker 4: evolved to look after young children, to nurture those children,

1061
01:03:25,493 --> 01:03:27,533
Speaker 4: and there's a stage in every mother's life where she

1062
01:03:27,613 --> 01:03:30,213
Speaker 4: has to start to back away from that naturing and

1063
01:03:30,653 --> 01:03:33,333
Speaker 4: allow the child to explore and grow. And that's and

1064
01:03:33,373 --> 01:03:37,773
Speaker 4: that's why men in fathers are so important. They play

1065
01:03:37,773 --> 01:03:40,533
Speaker 4: a different role. They push their kids, they encourage them

1066
01:03:40,853 --> 01:03:43,893
Speaker 4: to get out and compete. I'm not saying women don't,

1067
01:03:43,973 --> 01:03:48,493
Speaker 4: but there's there's more tendency to nurture and to discuss

1068
01:03:49,293 --> 01:03:49,893
Speaker 4: from women.

1069
01:03:50,493 --> 01:03:50,653
Speaker 3: Now.

1070
01:03:50,693 --> 01:03:52,813
Speaker 4: That is what is happening in our schools. We're seeing

1071
01:03:52,853 --> 01:03:55,773
Speaker 4: more and more leaders and teachers in the schools men.

1072
01:03:55,933 --> 01:03:58,493
Speaker 4: Men are scared to go into primary schools these days

1073
01:03:58,493 --> 01:04:04,013
Speaker 4: for reasons we both know, and and so there's this

1074
01:04:04,293 --> 01:04:09,373
Speaker 4: over nurturing of children and an over an emphasis on

1075
01:04:10,613 --> 01:04:14,133
Speaker 4: cooperation and discussion and a whole lot of things that

1076
01:04:14,173 --> 01:04:17,933
Speaker 4: actually leads the boys feeling like they have to sit

1077
01:04:17,973 --> 01:04:19,773
Speaker 4: down on the carpet with the girls and do nothing,

1078
01:04:20,613 --> 01:04:22,613
Speaker 4: which they'll happily do if you give them an iPhone

1079
01:04:23,053 --> 01:04:25,253
Speaker 4: or some sort of smart device that they can just

1080
01:04:25,693 --> 01:04:30,493
Speaker 4: get absorbed in. But we're losing that balance between the

1081
01:04:30,533 --> 01:04:33,733
Speaker 4: masculine and feminine that should be there, and the only

1082
01:04:33,773 --> 01:04:35,533
Speaker 4: way we can resolve that, by the way, is to

1083
01:04:36,453 --> 01:04:40,133
Speaker 4: get more men back into the teaching profession, particularly at

1084
01:04:40,133 --> 01:04:41,733
Speaker 4: the primary school level.

1085
01:04:41,493 --> 01:04:46,653
Speaker 2: Which lead leads to another subject, really not one that

1086
01:04:46,693 --> 01:04:49,533
Speaker 2: you've covered as horis I'm aware at this point, but

1087
01:04:50,573 --> 01:04:52,413
Speaker 2: co ed or single sex school's best.

1088
01:04:53,973 --> 01:04:54,653
Speaker 3: That's a hard one.

1089
01:04:54,853 --> 01:04:57,973
Speaker 4: I went to a single sex school, Saint John's College

1090
01:04:59,053 --> 01:05:03,333
Speaker 4: in Hamilton. I must say, having come from a full

1091
01:05:03,493 --> 01:05:06,613
Speaker 4: country school to a place where there were no girls,

1092
01:05:06,653 --> 01:05:11,693
Speaker 4: I found it very discombobular at the start. And actually,

1093
01:05:11,693 --> 01:05:14,093
Speaker 4: I'd have to say I think I suffered a psychological

1094
01:05:14,373 --> 01:05:16,293
Speaker 4: deficit at the end of that time because I really

1095
01:05:16,333 --> 01:05:19,213
Speaker 4: didn't know how to approach approach girls when I went

1096
01:05:19,253 --> 01:05:23,133
Speaker 4: to university. So look, I know these evidence that suggests

1097
01:05:23,133 --> 01:05:25,693
Speaker 4: that that single sex schools are better for education.

1098
01:05:26,373 --> 01:05:27,253
Speaker 3: My view is.

1099
01:05:29,613 --> 01:05:33,053
Speaker 4: Keeping the two sexes together through school is the better,

1100
01:05:34,093 --> 01:05:38,013
Speaker 4: the better way, because I think that that period of

1101
01:05:38,053 --> 01:05:41,693
Speaker 4: puberty is such a great time for socialization between the

1102
01:05:41,733 --> 01:05:43,413
Speaker 4: two sexes and to understand each other.

1103
01:05:43,453 --> 01:05:45,813
Speaker 2: That's just my opinion. I know this will have but

1104
01:05:46,373 --> 01:05:49,093
Speaker 2: I was interested in your opinion. I experienced both, and

1105
01:05:50,413 --> 01:05:53,333
Speaker 2: I could argue either way to be honest.

1106
01:05:53,533 --> 01:05:55,333
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree.

1107
01:05:55,413 --> 01:05:57,973
Speaker 2: All right. So I mentioned that I had a suggestion

1108
01:05:58,093 --> 01:06:00,613
Speaker 2: to make to you, And now it would appear to

1109
01:06:00,653 --> 01:06:06,413
Speaker 2: be the time you mentioned globalization and you mentioned American politics,

1110
01:06:07,773 --> 01:06:10,613
Speaker 2: and I think there is another podcast on both those

1111
01:06:10,893 --> 01:06:13,693
Speaker 2: topics for us to cover sometime in the not too

1112
01:06:13,693 --> 01:06:14,373
Speaker 2: distant future.

1113
01:06:14,413 --> 01:06:18,853
Speaker 4: You say, I'd love to do that. I'm fascinated in it.

1114
01:06:20,333 --> 01:06:24,173
Speaker 4: I think we're in danger of the world economy contracting

1115
01:06:24,253 --> 01:06:30,253
Speaker 4: Judah deglobalization, and New Zealand's in a particularly.

1116
01:06:29,893 --> 01:06:32,413
Speaker 3: Vulnerable situation in that regard.

1117
01:06:32,813 --> 01:06:36,093
Speaker 4: I mean that kind of hitches back to education as well,

1118
01:06:36,733 --> 01:06:41,253
Speaker 4: because we have to have a highly educated, innovative society

1119
01:06:41,253 --> 01:06:44,533
Speaker 4: in New Zealand And with such a small country, such

1120
01:06:44,573 --> 01:06:48,893
Speaker 4: a long way from anywhere, that we need the benefits

1121
01:06:49,373 --> 01:06:53,493
Speaker 4: of free trade to do well in the world. And

1122
01:06:53,533 --> 01:06:55,333
Speaker 4: you know, I've got lots of thoughts on that from

1123
01:06:55,133 --> 01:06:57,053
Speaker 4: my years in trade development.

1124
01:06:57,693 --> 01:07:00,013
Speaker 3: But I'd love to love to have a deeper discussion

1125
01:07:00,053 --> 01:07:01,133
Speaker 3: on those topics.

1126
01:07:00,773 --> 01:07:03,253
Speaker 2: And we might we might make it a trifector and

1127
01:07:03,293 --> 01:07:04,693
Speaker 2: throw media into it as well.

1128
01:07:05,213 --> 01:07:05,453
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1129
01:07:05,453 --> 01:07:08,293
Speaker 4: Look, just on that note, and as you talked about it,

1130
01:07:08,573 --> 01:07:14,173
Speaker 4: I did listen to your podcasts with Oliver Hartwich, and

1131
01:07:14,213 --> 01:07:15,733
Speaker 4: I think Oliver is a very good thinker. I love

1132
01:07:15,813 --> 01:07:18,013
Speaker 4: some of this thinking about how New Zealand might become

1133
01:07:18,013 --> 01:07:22,573
Speaker 4: a little bit more Swiss in its democracy. That's not

1134
01:07:22,613 --> 01:07:25,053
Speaker 4: an easy leak to make. The one thing he did

1135
01:07:25,093 --> 01:07:28,933
Speaker 4: touch on and I was cheering alongside, was foreign direct investment.

1136
01:07:29,213 --> 01:07:34,293
Speaker 4: New Zealand needs to understand that it doesn't really matter

1137
01:07:34,333 --> 01:07:35,613
Speaker 4: that much where the money comes from.

1138
01:07:35,653 --> 01:07:37,053
Speaker 3: We need capital.

1139
01:07:37,693 --> 01:07:43,813
Speaker 4: Our firms in New Zealand have consistently been undercapitalized, so

1140
01:07:43,853 --> 01:07:47,933
Speaker 4: we need the factors of production and obviously human smart

1141
01:07:48,013 --> 01:07:52,013
Speaker 4: humans is a big part of that education, but capital

1142
01:07:52,053 --> 01:07:54,773
Speaker 4: is another thing. And we've done a really bad job

1143
01:07:54,813 --> 01:07:57,293
Speaker 4: over the years of trying to protect the economy from

1144
01:07:57,413 --> 01:08:00,413
Speaker 4: foreign direct investment while trying to open up other economies

1145
01:08:00,413 --> 01:08:02,453
Speaker 4: to our products. We need to we need to be

1146
01:08:02,493 --> 01:08:05,293
Speaker 4: a little bit more balanced about that. And he did

1147
01:08:05,333 --> 01:08:09,173
Speaker 4: site Ireland, which is a country of my ancestry, and

1148
01:08:09,213 --> 01:08:11,133
Speaker 4: you know that have the advantage of being situated in

1149
01:08:11,133 --> 01:08:14,013
Speaker 4: the middle of Europe, on the edge of Europe. But

1150
01:08:14,333 --> 01:08:17,933
Speaker 4: they've done a fantastic job of attracting foreign direct investment

1151
01:08:18,013 --> 01:08:21,093
Speaker 4: and in the education system and they're moving, you know,

1152
01:08:21,133 --> 01:08:23,853
Speaker 4: well ahead of others as a knowledge economy, and I

1153
01:08:23,853 --> 01:08:25,853
Speaker 4: think New Zealand needs to do something similar.

1154
01:08:26,093 --> 01:08:28,613
Speaker 2: You know, I've never been attracted to Ireland in any way,

1155
01:08:28,653 --> 01:08:32,253
Speaker 2: shape or form until Oliver made those comments, and by

1156
01:08:32,253 --> 01:08:33,653
Speaker 2: the end of it, I was ready to pack up

1157
01:08:33,693 --> 01:08:34,413
Speaker 2: the house and leave.

1158
01:08:36,373 --> 01:08:37,973
Speaker 3: Well, they got great crack over there.

1159
01:08:38,173 --> 01:08:42,533
Speaker 4: You know, they love to talk, but they're good thinkers,

1160
01:08:42,573 --> 01:08:45,973
Speaker 4: and you know they've been placed in a difficult situation

1161
01:08:46,053 --> 01:08:50,093
Speaker 4: because of Brexit. I might add Laton that you know,

1162
01:08:51,213 --> 01:08:53,493
Speaker 4: Island is a place that actually demonstrates for me that

1163
01:08:54,133 --> 01:08:56,853
Speaker 4: we have to look to the future, forget about the

1164
01:08:56,893 --> 01:09:00,333
Speaker 4: past and all the injustices and everything that's gone on

1165
01:09:00,413 --> 01:09:03,653
Speaker 4: in the world where we could have a grievance. It's

1166
01:09:03,773 --> 01:09:07,813
Speaker 4: so important that a society pulls together and comes together

1167
01:09:08,053 --> 01:09:11,533
Speaker 4: around under a vision and a goal. And thank god

1168
01:09:11,573 --> 01:09:14,213
Speaker 4: Island has done that. They've moved on from the troubles,

1169
01:09:14,253 --> 01:09:16,333
Speaker 4: although you know it really worries me that the Brexit

1170
01:09:16,333 --> 01:09:19,213
Speaker 4: thing might stir that up again. But New Zealand has

1171
01:09:19,253 --> 01:09:21,533
Speaker 4: to be very careful on this front. We need to

1172
01:09:21,653 --> 01:09:24,813
Speaker 4: understand that we're all New Zealanders wherever we came from,

1173
01:09:25,373 --> 01:09:28,733
Speaker 4: and we need a common set of values and some

1174
01:09:28,853 --> 01:09:31,933
Speaker 4: national pride in being New Zealand as not being in

1175
01:09:32,013 --> 01:09:35,333
Speaker 4: our groups, whatever they may be, but being New Zealand's

1176
01:09:35,413 --> 01:09:39,853
Speaker 4: first and foremost and proud of our country. And as

1177
01:09:39,973 --> 01:09:43,693
Speaker 4: people would say, all throwing the walker in the same direction.

1178
01:09:43,853 --> 01:09:46,173
Speaker 2: Would you allow a walker from anywhere in the world

1179
01:09:46,173 --> 01:09:46,853
Speaker 2: to come.

1180
01:09:46,693 --> 01:09:52,973
Speaker 4: In that's a hard question. I'm not a stag again.

1181
01:09:53,093 --> 01:09:55,053
Speaker 2: I was going to say hold the thought because we

1182
01:09:55,053 --> 01:09:57,853
Speaker 2: can throw that in with the other lot. Yeah, it's

1183
01:09:57,933 --> 01:10:01,253
Speaker 2: building now your work. What is the best way for

1184
01:10:01,293 --> 01:10:02,053
Speaker 2: people to find it?

1185
01:10:02,453 --> 01:10:04,573
Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm still building that up at the moment.

1186
01:10:04,613 --> 01:10:07,213
Speaker 4: But if they go on to substack, look up substack

1187
01:10:07,293 --> 01:10:11,933
Speaker 4: and look for intology. I've also been posting my work

1188
01:10:11,973 --> 01:10:15,773
Speaker 4: to LinkedIn and Twitter. I've got a little bit of

1189
01:10:15,813 --> 01:10:17,373
Speaker 4: work to do there late in getting that a bit

1190
01:10:17,773 --> 01:10:18,733
Speaker 4: more in shape.

1191
01:10:19,373 --> 01:10:23,373
Speaker 3: I don't use Instagram. I don't like that platform.

1192
01:10:23,573 --> 01:10:28,373
Speaker 4: But if they simply look me up on substack, they'll

1193
01:10:28,413 --> 01:10:30,093
Speaker 4: find antology.

1194
01:10:30,053 --> 01:10:38,853
Speaker 2: Antology on substack, yes, not anthology, antology a n T antology.

1195
01:10:39,133 --> 01:10:39,493
Speaker 3: Yes.

1196
01:10:40,013 --> 01:10:42,453
Speaker 2: And I encourage everyone to do it and spread it around.

1197
01:10:43,373 --> 01:10:47,053
Speaker 2: It's it's very deserving of your attention. And I want

1198
01:10:47,053 --> 01:10:48,453
Speaker 2: to thank you Tony.

1199
01:10:48,213 --> 01:10:50,533
Speaker 4: Well, no, thank you for giving me this time and

1200
01:10:50,693 --> 01:10:54,813
Speaker 4: in this platform. It's not often someone like me gets

1201
01:10:54,813 --> 01:10:57,213
Speaker 4: the chance to have a discussion like this later and

1202
01:10:57,333 --> 01:11:00,253
Speaker 4: it's been it's been really pleasurable, So thank you very much.

1203
01:11:00,333 --> 01:11:03,493
Speaker 2: Well, we shall meet again in the not too distant

1204
01:11:03,493 --> 01:11:05,653
Speaker 2: future at a time and date to be arranged.

1205
01:11:06,613 --> 01:11:09,453
Speaker 3: Perfect I look forward to it. Likewise, Thanks Laydon.

1206
01:11:09,693 --> 01:11:30,613
Speaker 2: Thank you Tony. Now, it was only last week that

1207
01:11:30,653 --> 01:11:34,213
Speaker 2: I was referring to the wonderful benefits of wet and forget,

1208
01:11:34,293 --> 01:11:37,533
Speaker 2: mass mold, lichen, black fungi, and l g remover.

1209
01:11:37,813 --> 01:11:38,013
Speaker 3: Now.

1210
01:11:38,213 --> 01:11:41,893
Speaker 2: Coincidentally, I received a couple of days later a text

1211
01:11:41,933 --> 01:11:44,573
Speaker 2: from a friend of mine who I've made mention of before,

1212
01:11:44,693 --> 01:11:47,173
Speaker 2: who lives in Sydney. He's an academic, and he said,

1213
01:11:47,213 --> 01:11:50,493
Speaker 2: believe it or not, I'm in Poughkeepski in New York,

1214
01:11:50,813 --> 01:11:53,053
Speaker 2: visiting my best friend. And he told me that he

1215
01:11:53,093 --> 01:11:55,253
Speaker 2: had a muss problem on his roof. So I asked

1216
01:11:55,333 --> 01:11:57,853
Speaker 2: him what he was using, now, being a man who

1217
01:11:57,853 --> 01:12:00,973
Speaker 2: believes in communication efficiency, and that was all. But there

1218
01:12:00,973 --> 01:12:03,693
Speaker 2: was an accompanying picture of a container of wet and

1219
01:12:03,773 --> 01:12:06,493
Speaker 2: forget and a scrubber broom and something else behind that

1220
01:12:06,573 --> 01:12:08,213
Speaker 2: I can't quite see. So I have a word of

1221
01:12:08,253 --> 01:12:10,773
Speaker 2: advice for your friend, and that is, make sure he

1222
01:12:10,853 --> 01:12:14,253
Speaker 2: reads the instructions and applies it properly. Don't need to

1223
01:12:14,253 --> 01:12:16,333
Speaker 2: scrub it. The rain will take care of it. Does

1224
01:12:16,413 --> 01:12:19,013
Speaker 2: rain in Poughkeepski. I presume don't forget that you can

1225
01:12:19,053 --> 01:12:22,093
Speaker 2: get wet and forget products in many, many places in

1226
01:12:22,373 --> 01:12:25,333
Speaker 2: all of the twenty one standalone stores nationwide. In New

1227
01:12:25,453 --> 01:12:27,613
Speaker 2: Zealand on the phone at eight hundred and three zero

1228
01:12:27,733 --> 01:12:31,493
Speaker 2: three thousand wetinforget dot co dot NZ in Australia and

1229
01:12:31,573 --> 01:12:36,053
Speaker 2: in England, and particularly in Poughkeepski in New York, as

1230
01:12:36,053 --> 01:12:40,853
Speaker 2: well as the rest of America. Layton Smith now into

1231
01:12:40,893 --> 01:12:43,213
Speaker 2: the mail room for two forty six. Actually it's more

1232
01:12:43,253 --> 01:12:45,973
Speaker 2: of a male box, isn't it? Much smaller and not

1233
01:12:46,093 --> 01:12:49,333
Speaker 2: nearly as much fun. Missus producer aka Carolyn will be

1234
01:12:49,373 --> 01:12:52,693
Speaker 2: back next week and we're all looking forward to that.

1235
01:12:53,453 --> 01:12:57,053
Speaker 2: So feedback on last week with James Bovard two forty

1236
01:12:57,053 --> 01:13:01,173
Speaker 2: five was very entertaining interview. I'd say that he was

1237
01:13:01,213 --> 01:13:04,173
Speaker 2: spot on with his analysis, in line with all the

1238
01:13:04,213 --> 01:13:07,133
Speaker 2: alternative news that I listened to. I could not, for

1239
01:13:07,213 --> 01:13:11,693
Speaker 2: the life of me his humorous delivery on such dire topics,

1240
01:13:11,693 --> 01:13:16,533
Speaker 2: but I thank him. Cheers from Rod from Colin. I

1241
01:13:16,653 --> 01:13:19,653
Speaker 2: was disappointed that James Bouvard did not pick up on

1242
01:13:19,773 --> 01:13:22,413
Speaker 2: your opinion of Donald Trump. All the years that you

1243
01:13:22,533 --> 01:13:25,413
Speaker 2: have been interviewing people has given you the ability to

1244
01:13:25,413 --> 01:13:29,693
Speaker 2: be a very good judge of personality. I think having

1245
01:13:29,733 --> 01:13:33,773
Speaker 2: followed you for some time. I agree with what you said,

1246
01:13:33,853 --> 01:13:36,693
Speaker 2: as I feel Trump is an orator with a strong

1247
01:13:36,853 --> 01:13:41,453
Speaker 2: extraversion of personality that makes him very articulate and expressive.

1248
01:13:41,893 --> 01:13:47,013
Speaker 2: The thing is behind this persona as usual, is a

1249
01:13:47,173 --> 01:13:50,973
Speaker 2: very intelligent mind. Therefore he has the qualities of a

1250
01:13:51,013 --> 01:13:54,613
Speaker 2: good leader. It's a pity the Democrats are able to

1251
01:13:54,733 --> 01:13:58,133
Speaker 2: bend so many rules to discredit him. Maybe they might

1252
01:13:58,173 --> 01:14:01,493
Speaker 2: be able to bend another rule and parachute Michelle Obama

1253
01:14:01,573 --> 01:14:06,213
Speaker 2: into the contest. Goodness me, I hope not, says Colin

1254
01:14:06,733 --> 01:14:11,373
Speaker 2: is asking and answering his own question and from breat

1255
01:14:12,773 --> 01:14:17,213
Speaker 2: I am behind in your quality podcasts. Well, that's I suppose,

1256
01:14:17,213 --> 01:14:19,693
Speaker 2: one way of putting it. It was nice to hear

1257
01:14:20,573 --> 01:14:25,813
Speaker 2: epigenetics and sell consciousness make an appearance. Human biology is

1258
01:14:26,253 --> 01:14:30,253
Speaker 2: far more complex and interesting than we understand. Wisdom and

1259
01:14:30,373 --> 01:14:33,533
Speaker 2: knowledge are two different things. We're doing things without the

1260
01:14:33,573 --> 01:14:36,733
Speaker 2: wisdom and thinking ourselves clever than were cleverer than we are.

1261
01:14:37,133 --> 01:14:41,533
Speaker 2: We in fact know so very little and understand even less.

1262
01:14:42,253 --> 01:14:45,893
Speaker 2: Ghost in the Genes was a documentary now many years old,

1263
01:14:46,293 --> 01:14:50,973
Speaker 2: that introduced epigenetics. Epigenetics is in fact a very large

1264
01:14:51,013 --> 01:14:55,133
Speaker 2: field with many tangents. Yet more branches off it into

1265
01:14:55,253 --> 01:15:00,053
Speaker 2: other areas to explore all interwoven, including our very spirituality,

1266
01:15:00,333 --> 01:15:06,933
Speaker 2: human consciousness, quantum nature revolution. With a shift lift in consciousness,

1267
01:15:07,093 --> 01:15:10,453
Speaker 2: amazing things could start to happen alas we have chosen

1268
01:15:10,493 --> 01:15:15,093
Speaker 2: to devolve or decline as a nation rather than evolve

1269
01:15:15,213 --> 01:15:20,293
Speaker 2: our consciousness. Enjoy everything you do. Was that a comment

1270
01:15:20,453 --> 01:15:21,093
Speaker 2: or an instruction?

1271
01:15:21,253 --> 01:15:21,773
Speaker 3: I'm not sure?

1272
01:15:22,973 --> 01:15:25,813
Speaker 2: Do I have time for this? Yes? Or thoroughly enjoyed

1273
01:15:25,813 --> 01:15:29,053
Speaker 2: this episode? Later in great banter and insight between the

1274
01:15:29,093 --> 01:15:34,093
Speaker 2: two of you, just one glaring omission a presidential candidate

1275
01:15:34,173 --> 01:15:39,573
Speaker 2: not mentioned even once, one who mainstream media have elected

1276
01:15:39,613 --> 01:15:42,973
Speaker 2: to ignore, much to my surprise. You are you, who

1277
01:15:43,013 --> 01:15:45,733
Speaker 2: I do not consider to be mainstream in the slightest

1278
01:15:46,173 --> 01:15:51,653
Speaker 2: have ignored to my knowledge so far. Rfk JR. Robert

1279
01:15:51,693 --> 01:15:55,333
Speaker 2: Kennedy is most certainly in this presidential running, and running

1280
01:15:55,373 --> 01:15:59,173
Speaker 2: as an independent should not preclude him from the debate

1281
01:15:59,733 --> 01:16:03,813
Speaker 2: nor from the media's consideration. He is a threat to

1282
01:16:03,853 --> 01:16:08,013
Speaker 2: the hegemonic status quo in America, all the more reason

1283
01:16:08,093 --> 01:16:11,373
Speaker 2: to be tuning in. CNN did not allow him on

1284
01:16:11,413 --> 01:16:14,053
Speaker 2: the debate floor, so he answered all of the questions

1285
01:16:14,093 --> 01:16:17,613
Speaker 2: on a stream on Twitter much more eloquent than the

1286
01:16:17,693 --> 01:16:21,413
Speaker 2: other two. Also, I might add the states that Biden

1287
01:16:21,693 --> 01:16:25,253
Speaker 2: is in makes you wonder who was actually running the show.

1288
01:16:25,813 --> 01:16:28,573
Speaker 2: It is certainly not him, but I think we have

1289
01:16:28,653 --> 01:16:31,893
Speaker 2: the answer to that now. Thanks Hank, appreciate it, and

1290
01:16:31,933 --> 01:16:35,213
Speaker 2: I might address your Rah Kennedy comment to another time

1291
01:16:35,733 --> 01:16:38,253
Speaker 2: that takes us out for podcasts two hundred and forty six.

1292
01:16:38,613 --> 01:16:41,373
Speaker 2: We shall be back next week with missus producer in

1293
01:16:41,413 --> 01:16:44,893
Speaker 2: tow and in the meantime if you'd like to correspond

1294
01:16:44,973 --> 01:16:48,693
Speaker 2: Latent at Newstalks AB dot co dot nz or Carolyn

1295
01:16:49,013 --> 01:16:52,653
Speaker 2: with a y at NEUSTORGSB dot co dot nz. As always,

1296
01:16:53,253 --> 01:16:55,733
Speaker 2: thank you for listening and we shall talk soon.

1297
01:17:03,573 --> 01:17:07,813
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from Newstalks B Listen live on

1298
01:17:07,973 --> 01:17:10,933
Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

1299
01:17:10,973 --> 01:17:13,573
Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.