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Speaker 1: The Naked Shift did a lot of things that put

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Speaker 1: Jamie Oliver on the map. Of course, for a start,

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Speaker 1: it went on to produce any number of cookbooks and

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Speaker 1: the empire of restaurants and recipes designed to be so

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Speaker 1: simple you can give them a crack at home without

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Speaker 1: being a genius. It also sold the idea that frish

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Speaker 1: and good doesn't have to be expensable or complicated. Jamie

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Speaker 1: Oliver is beck with us, good morning.

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Speaker 2: Lovely to be here, my friend.

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Speaker 1: It's start with a big broad questions. I mean, twenty

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Speaker 1: five years for goodness sake, does it seem like that

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Speaker 1: since Naked Shift?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's starting to feel like that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think I had twenty years if it didn't feel

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Speaker 2: like that. And I think finally I've become nostalgic and

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Speaker 2: retrospective and feeling a bit older. And when I brush

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Speaker 2: my teeth in the morning, I do say, who the

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Speaker 2: bloody hell's that? But yeah, it's a it's funny thing time,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. I think it's definitely gives you a perspective,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I start leaning towards experience and wisdom a

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Speaker 2: little bit more than just enthusiasm.

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Speaker 1: And what was your expectation. Do you remember in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety I mean, what did you nothing.

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Speaker 2: I just was so grateful to be alive. I was

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Speaker 2: so grateful to be like young and in London and exploring.

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Speaker 2: I was so happy to have a job. When the

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Speaker 2: Naked Chef happened, it was never planned. I was never

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Speaker 2: even supposed to be there that day that they was.

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Speaker 2: I was in the background of a documentary that and

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Speaker 2: I wasn't even on the road to that day. Someone

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Speaker 2: called him sick. I got lucky. I mean, I kind of.

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Speaker 2: I was very confident in cooking. I've been cooking since

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Speaker 2: an early age. But when the TV people, I knew

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Speaker 2: nothing about production or TV. But I was very very

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Speaker 2: clear that if I was going to do it, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do it on my terms, my food, my

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Speaker 2: friends and family. I wanted it cut to the music

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Speaker 2: that I listened to, not what the BBC library wanted

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Speaker 2: me to listen to. And I don't know, somehow it

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Speaker 2: tuned into a little moment, a little flavor, and it

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Speaker 2: went massive around the world. And yeah, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think I was so green and naive but just excited

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Speaker 2: to just to be I never thought i'd get to Australia.

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Speaker 2: I never thought I'd get here. I just thought it

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Speaker 2: was out of my reach. I came from a little

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Speaker 2: village in Essex, so you know, pretty humble beginnings.

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Speaker 1: Really when did it sort of turn into a business

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Speaker 1: and did that take away from what you were trying

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Speaker 1: to do at any point?

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Speaker 2: I think, like naturally, like you're working it out, so

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Speaker 2: you know, you kind of you do a TV show

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Speaker 2: that's kind of interesting, and then like you do a

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Speaker 2: book and that exploded, and then you know quite early

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Speaker 2: that the relationship with people through books was an interesting one.

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Speaker 2: It was a very very pure one and to this

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Speaker 2: day actually it's a very pure one if you think

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Speaker 2: about the world we live in now, which is often

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Speaker 2: driven by likes and comments and views, but they're all free, right,

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Speaker 2: But a book sale is still a book sale. And

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Speaker 2: going to book signings and talking to people, you know.

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Speaker 2: I started to learn very quickly that it was more

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Speaker 2: than just recipes and a cooking show. It was you

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Speaker 2: know what it is, which is like food is the

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Speaker 2: biggest employer in the world, the biggest business in the world.

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Speaker 2: It's full of good but mainly the bad and the ugly,

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Speaker 2: and so yeah, that kind of just sent me down

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Speaker 2: a path. And yes, it became a business because I

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Speaker 2: guess when you start employing. As soon as I made money,

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Speaker 2: I started employing people and investing in people. And that's

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Speaker 2: probably one of the things I've done very well. And

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Speaker 2: try to tell bigger stories and better stories, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: try try to do some stuff that had never been

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Speaker 2: done before, and and yeah, so there's kind of a

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Speaker 2: business element, which was always a bit uncomfortable because business

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Speaker 2: is business. But also business allows you to invest in

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Speaker 2: things and employ people and bring congregate people that maybe

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Speaker 2: never ever Like if I took you to my office

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Speaker 2: in Holloway, I know for a fact, you'd be like

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Speaker 2: bloody hell like real experts in all kinds of geeky

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Speaker 2: areas of like science and environment and people that send

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Speaker 2: stuff away for analysis and do secret rerecords on factories

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Speaker 2: and farms and you know, documentary and campaigns to apartments

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Speaker 2: and government departments, and you know, it's just like a

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Speaker 2: there's a lot going on under you know, there's a lot,

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of what I do the public don't

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Speaker 2: really know about. And it's just trying to be thorough

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Speaker 2: about the stuff I talk about in food.

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Speaker 1: Really now, when you talk a lot. I'll come back

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Speaker 1: to the business in the mondment, but when you talked

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Speaker 1: about the campaigning side, about the school lunch program or

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Speaker 1: the you know, the school food program, I guess that's

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Speaker 1: the most famous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very very proud of it. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: it's you know, when you're able to tell a story

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Speaker 2: about something that's run by the government and you look

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Speaker 2: at it in context to now and also when it

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Speaker 2: was created, which is at the beginning of the nineteenth century. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we look at the government had one hundred and ninety

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Speaker 2: days of the year to get breakfast and lunch, right

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Speaker 2: in a country that's often cold and wet and damp,

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Speaker 2: and where you know, a fairly large proportion of those

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Speaker 2: kids are on free school lunches because they're from very

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Speaker 2: very poor families, and there were no standards. There were

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Speaker 2: standards for dog food, but no standards for kid food.

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Speaker 2: So it's a really classic example of Britain's love for

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Speaker 2: dogs and and sort of lack of detail when it

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Speaker 2: comes to nourishment of kids. And even to this day,

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Speaker 2: I think, like we we look at the education of

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Speaker 2: food as a luxury, not a necessity, and I completely disagree.

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Speaker 2: So I just I always think that the best way

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Speaker 2: to learn that maths is through baking. The best way

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Speaker 2: to learn history is through food. And I really I

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Speaker 2: mean I you know, kids are not born genetically to

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Speaker 2: love nuggets and burgers. It's called marketing. So I just

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Speaker 2: really truly believe that governments have a I think government's

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Speaker 2: job is to look at how the world is constantly

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Speaker 2: changing and then just kind of try and create a

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Speaker 2: fair playing field where people don't die of stupid stuff.

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Speaker 2: And do you know what I mean? Like people, you know,

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Speaker 2: and whether it's to Ossie's, you know, if you're some

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Speaker 2: they'll say things like nanny state, don't tell me what

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Speaker 2: to do. But you know, when you kind of translate

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Speaker 2: foody things into a seat belt or the type of

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Speaker 2: rubber used to make a tire on a bus that

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Speaker 2: takes kids to school, or the kind of rivets that

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Speaker 2: are holding an aeroplane up in the sky, you know,

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Speaker 2: like standards and practices, as boring as they might sound,

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Speaker 2: are super important.

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Speaker 1: You're saying, now, listen to the business side of the equation.

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Speaker 1: So you use your celebrity, as you were telling us,

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Speaker 1: a moment to go before the break of celebrity for

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Speaker 1: success and good.

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Speaker 2: All of that.

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Speaker 1: When it went wrong, and it did go wrong there

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Speaker 1: for a while, what's that like.

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Speaker 2: I mean I've kind of I mean, it's gone wrong

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Speaker 2: constantly throughout my career. I mean I think I used

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Speaker 2: to be about forty sixty like failure to success. I

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Speaker 2: think I'm about fifty to fifty now. I Mean people

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Speaker 2: call it being an entrepreneur. I always think that just

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Speaker 2: in my position with the with the information that I

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Speaker 2: get and the access I get, I'm always trying to

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Speaker 2: find new ways to communicate, like people having a better

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Speaker 2: relationship with food and through the realms of businesses. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I've set up some fascinating businesses and food

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Speaker 2: businesses that were really like either two years too early,

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Speaker 2: or like a year too late, or or just it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the right cocktail to work. I mean, every failure

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Speaker 2: has had it's little jewel that I've taken out and

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Speaker 2: turned into something else. But yeah, I mean, like certainly

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Speaker 2: when I lost the UK restaurants, that was a big one.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's the worst. I mean it's

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Speaker 2: it's kind of you at your most vulnerable. It's it's

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Speaker 2: the worst. And that's all the stuff like when certainly

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Speaker 2: when you're trying to work in between the press and

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Speaker 2: things like that, it's you know, making sure your suppliers

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Speaker 2: are paid, and like you might not be able to

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Speaker 2: express that to the press because there's stuff going on

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Speaker 2: behind and not behind the you know, because I'm a

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Speaker 2: massive I've come from a family business, you know, so

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Speaker 2: you know people that you know, I work with all

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Speaker 2: the same supplies and stuff now as I did when

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Speaker 2: I lost the restaurants, which is as I did for

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Speaker 2: the last twenty years. It's painful living out your failures

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Speaker 2: in public, but I think at the same time, you

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Speaker 2: know you've been doing this long enough. Sometimes it's help.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a hindrance. I think. I think, if your

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Speaker 2: heart's in the right place and I'm still young enough

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Speaker 2: where I should have another go, and it would be right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, for what it's worth. I've always thought authenticity

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Speaker 1: is the key to it all. Authenticity is the key

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Speaker 1: to success generally in life. As far as I can

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Speaker 1: work out, people know you, they've seen you. You've got

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Speaker 1: a reputation and a record, and it all works out

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Speaker 1: well in the end, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: And I think, look, failure, failure is such an interesting conversation,

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Speaker 2: doing the best version of bad and learning from it

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Speaker 2: and coming back. I think that's probably generally the spirit.

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Speaker 2: I think I always see the publishing as the center

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Speaker 2: of my world because I think when you're paying, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what it is in dollars, but when you're

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Speaker 2: buying a book, my job is really to listen and

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Speaker 2: then react every year in the fur of a book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Is London, by the way, it still the center

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Speaker 1: of the world for you in terms of culinary expression.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to make your name in

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Speaker 1: the culinary world, you've got to be in London and

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Speaker 1: nail it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that London is definitely an amazing city.

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Speaker 2: There is something about London that has a sort of

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Speaker 2: strange halo around it, and I'm not quite sure what

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Speaker 2: it is. It's kind of like it's kind of impressive enough,

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Speaker 2: but gnarly enough. It's like rough and beautiful, and I

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Speaker 2: think I definitely think like London's a legit city. But

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Speaker 2: saying that, if my kid was a chef, I'd be

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Speaker 2: telling them to come to Sydney or Melbourne, So you know,

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Speaker 2: it kind of runs both ways. But I think also,

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Speaker 2: you know, the benefit of London, of course is and

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Speaker 2: you within an hour and a half you can get

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Speaker 2: to Portugal, Spain, France, you know, the Nordics. It's like

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Speaker 2: you know, so obviously as you get more central, it's

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Speaker 2: a bit more posha and a bit more kind of

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Speaker 2: like grown up. But I love that about London. And

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Speaker 2: of course it's you know, ten million people and eat

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Speaker 2: diverse and I'm still there four days a week, no.

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Speaker 1: Regrets, terrific stuff.

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Speaker 2: Lovely to see you, Thank you mate, look after yourself and.

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Speaker 1: Will and go well. Jamie Oliver out of Australia for

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Speaker 1: Us this morning.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow

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