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Speaker 1: The Consumer Advocacy Council is telling us the new disclosure

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Speaker 1: rules intended to shine a light on where the power

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Speaker 1: companies are making excess profits, are not working. So this

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Speaker 1: is a report from the NZIER found the disclosure rules

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Speaker 1: introduced by the Electricity Authority head shortcomings, which limits the

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Speaker 1: usefulness of the information companies are providing. Now, the Consumer's

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Speaker 1: Advocacy Council chair is Debrah Hard who is with us. Deborah,

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Speaker 1: morning to you, Good morning Mike. Now is it the

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Speaker 1: rules that are the problem or are the companies playing

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Speaker 1: games with the rules, and that they weren't playing games

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Speaker 1: the rules would actually work.

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Speaker 2: Well, the rules are the problem, and we don't know

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Speaker 2: if the gin tailors, that's the companies that both generate

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Speaker 2: electricity and retail electricity are playing games. We just don't know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you want to see inside what the gen

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Speaker 1: is providing the tailor with and what's that number and

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Speaker 1: what's that gap? And if you knew that then we'd

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Speaker 1: be getting somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know we want that, but we also need

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Speaker 2: the Electricity Authority to bench mark those costs properly so

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Speaker 2: that we can make we can make sense of that

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Speaker 2: and at the moment, we just don't have that regime.

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Speaker 2: So we have some of the information, but not enough

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Speaker 2: that we can can say that there aren't excessive profits

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Speaker 2: being made.

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Speaker 1: So there's your word, excessive profits. Even if we had

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Speaker 1: the number as transparent as day this afternoon, who's to

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Speaker 1: decide what's successive and what isn't.

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Speaker 2: Well, we would know if the the Gen Taylor's are

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Speaker 2: charging them their own retail arms less than they are

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Speaker 2: charging other retailers, and that would tell us that we

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Speaker 2: don't have true competition. But at the moment, we just

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Speaker 2: don't know that.

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Speaker 1: Although the market is dominated by Gen Taylor's, isn't it

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day. I mean, if there

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Speaker 1: were a whole lot of little guys out I mean,

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Speaker 1: I suppose there's a few little guys out there that

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Speaker 1: by the buy their stuff. Is there not enough competent

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Speaker 1: in terms of all that's available if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: dig into it and avail yourself at the best possible price.

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Speaker 2: Well, this goes to the very very crux of whether

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Speaker 2: we have real competition or not. If independent retailers can't

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Speaker 2: buy the electricity from the generators at the same price

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Speaker 2: as the Gen tailors, then they have a difficulty surviving.

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Speaker 2: And keep in mind, we had eight independent retailers in

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Speaker 2: a space of two years who came into the market

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Speaker 2: and left. If we want true competition, we really want

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Speaker 2: a lot of these independent retailers to be able to

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Speaker 2: be in our market.

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Speaker 1: Look, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I mean, could

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Speaker 1: they have come and they just couldn't cut it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: once again, it's like banks and telcos and airlines and

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. We're a tiny country with

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Speaker 1: five million people. There's only so much room in the

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Speaker 1: market for so many companies and maybe just go one

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Speaker 1: step too far and that's why they fell over, Not

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Speaker 1: because there's a lack of competition.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think. I don't think that's right. I

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Speaker 2: think that we we could do with more independent retailers,

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Speaker 2: ensuring that the gen tailors are very sharp with their

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Speaker 2: pencil when it comes to price. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 2: like consumers tell us time and again that they are

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Speaker 2: really hurting when it comes to power prices which are increasing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. But that's not about competition, though, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's like going to the supermarket and say

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Speaker 1: our grocery is too expensive. You go, well, yes they

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Speaker 1: are said about competition. You're just feeling a cost of

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Speaker 1: living problem.

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Speaker 2: Well, but it can be about competition as well. And

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Speaker 2: if consumers is to have confidence and that their bills

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Speaker 2: are not being inflated by companies making excessive profits, we

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Speaker 2: need to get this right.

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Speaker 1: Good on, You're nice to talk to you as well

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Speaker 1: as deb debrahat who's the Consumer Advocacy Council chair.

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Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

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Speaker 2: news talks.

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