1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,653 --> 00:00:18,613 Speaker 2: The government has scrap plans to put a four year 4 00:00:18,613 --> 00:00:22,893 Speaker 2: parliamentary term to a referendum. It's fulfilled coalition commitments, but 5 00:00:22,933 --> 00:00:25,372 Speaker 2: effectively it ran out of time to progress it before 6 00:00:25,493 --> 00:00:29,573 Speaker 2: the election. Joining us now is Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith, Minister, 7 00:00:29,693 --> 00:00:30,533 Speaker 2: very good afternoon to. 8 00:00:30,493 --> 00:00:33,413 Speaker 3: You, a good afternoon, good to talk. 9 00:00:34,093 --> 00:00:35,852 Speaker 4: Does the fact that you didn't have time to get 10 00:00:35,853 --> 00:00:39,092 Speaker 4: the referendum sorted on a four year term prove the 11 00:00:39,133 --> 00:00:40,373 Speaker 4: point that we need one? 12 00:00:41,533 --> 00:00:44,612 Speaker 3: No, you make it sound like it was some kind 13 00:00:44,613 --> 00:00:46,772 Speaker 3: of accident or an oversight. We ran out of time 14 00:00:46,812 --> 00:00:50,852 Speaker 3: by mistake. That certainly wasn't the case. We made a 15 00:00:50,853 --> 00:00:54,773 Speaker 3: conscious decision that there's a lot of things that were 16 00:00:54,813 --> 00:00:57,212 Speaker 3: working our way through. Obviously we're focused on fixing the 17 00:00:57,213 --> 00:01:00,253 Speaker 3: basics and law and order, got an enormous amount of 18 00:01:00,853 --> 00:01:03,493 Speaker 3: legislation going through the House in that space, and so 19 00:01:03,533 --> 00:01:06,533 Speaker 3: we wanted to focus on that rather than the four 20 00:01:06,613 --> 00:01:08,453 Speaker 3: year term. We can still come back to it in 21 00:01:08,493 --> 00:01:10,493 Speaker 3: another term, but it's not going to be a priority 22 00:01:10,533 --> 00:01:10,893 Speaker 3: for us. 23 00:01:11,333 --> 00:01:13,133 Speaker 4: Is it so hard to get a referendum going. Don't 24 00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:15,933 Speaker 4: you just have to write the question like should New 25 00:01:16,013 --> 00:01:18,812 Speaker 4: Zealand extend the electoral term to four years? 26 00:01:19,212 --> 00:01:22,572 Speaker 3: Is a more work than that behind the scenes, Well, 27 00:01:24,533 --> 00:01:26,693 Speaker 3: it's a it's a question I suppose of what we 28 00:01:26,733 --> 00:01:30,053 Speaker 3: want to be talking about and focusing on this year 29 00:01:30,093 --> 00:01:33,292 Speaker 3: as we come into an election. And yep, we can 30 00:01:33,333 --> 00:01:37,213 Speaker 3: have politicians talking about themselves and their arrangements and that thing, 31 00:01:37,893 --> 00:01:39,813 Speaker 3: or we can be talking about, you know, what we're 32 00:01:39,813 --> 00:01:42,933 Speaker 3: doing to reduce the number of victims of crime. And yeah, 33 00:01:42,973 --> 00:01:45,853 Speaker 3: you can talk about both. But obviously government always, governments 34 00:01:45,893 --> 00:01:48,613 Speaker 3: always need to kind of prioritize. You can't do everything 35 00:01:48,733 --> 00:01:52,333 Speaker 3: all at once, and our priorities getting the economy going, 36 00:01:52,973 --> 00:01:55,733 Speaker 3: restoring law and order and health and education and so, 37 00:01:56,173 --> 00:01:57,853 Speaker 3: you know, you just can't do everything, and so that's 38 00:01:57,893 --> 00:01:59,533 Speaker 3: why we're prioritized on this one. 39 00:02:00,013 --> 00:02:05,093 Speaker 4: Well we're going to spend some time right now. That's 40 00:02:07,173 --> 00:02:09,532 Speaker 4: how much of an outlier as New Zealand with it's 41 00:02:09,613 --> 00:02:11,013 Speaker 4: with its three year term. 42 00:02:11,653 --> 00:02:14,893 Speaker 3: Yeah, well look, I mean there's a variety of you know, 43 00:02:14,933 --> 00:02:17,813 Speaker 3: around different countries. So yep, we have an election every 44 00:02:17,853 --> 00:02:21,253 Speaker 3: three years. The Australian federal system is the same. They 45 00:02:21,293 --> 00:02:23,693 Speaker 3: have it every three years. But you know, if you 46 00:02:23,733 --> 00:02:27,213 Speaker 3: go to the United States, you know the presidents, it's 47 00:02:27,213 --> 00:02:29,693 Speaker 3: four years, but you know their Congress is actually every 48 00:02:29,893 --> 00:02:33,813 Speaker 3: two years. Go to the UK it's five years. I mean, 49 00:02:33,853 --> 00:02:35,773 Speaker 3: I don't know how they operate in the UK. If 50 00:02:35,813 --> 00:02:38,012 Speaker 3: you're lost in an election in the in the UK, 51 00:02:38,133 --> 00:02:39,373 Speaker 3: I don't know how you'd get out of bed in 52 00:02:39,413 --> 00:02:41,373 Speaker 3: the morning, because you know, you've got five years before 53 00:02:41,373 --> 00:02:43,893 Speaker 3: there's another election. So that seems to me to be 54 00:02:44,573 --> 00:02:47,693 Speaker 3: very strange. And so the basic sort of arguments that 55 00:02:47,733 --> 00:02:51,333 Speaker 3: people put forward are, Okay, if you you go to 56 00:02:51,373 --> 00:02:54,852 Speaker 3: four years, it just means, you know, a government has 57 00:02:55,053 --> 00:02:59,173 Speaker 3: longer to carry out its program before it has to 58 00:02:59,213 --> 00:03:02,053 Speaker 3: come back to an election year where everything gets tossed 59 00:03:02,133 --> 00:03:03,733 Speaker 3: up in the year, and so you know, might be 60 00:03:03,733 --> 00:03:05,493 Speaker 3: able to you know, if you've got one year getting 61 00:03:05,573 --> 00:03:08,653 Speaker 3: organized at the start and then one year campaigning and 62 00:03:08,693 --> 00:03:10,773 Speaker 3: you've only got one year in the middle, you know, 63 00:03:10,853 --> 00:03:13,373 Speaker 3: to really get things done. If you go to four years, 64 00:03:13,373 --> 00:03:15,692 Speaker 3: you might have more time to do that. So that's 65 00:03:15,733 --> 00:03:19,213 Speaker 3: the argument for it. That the argument against it is 66 00:03:19,252 --> 00:03:21,173 Speaker 3: to say, well, actually, you know, in New Zealand, we 67 00:03:21,453 --> 00:03:23,773 Speaker 3: don't have a Senate. We don't have a House of Lords, 68 00:03:23,813 --> 00:03:26,532 Speaker 3: we don't have an upper House, and we don't have 69 00:03:26,573 --> 00:03:29,773 Speaker 3: a Supreme Court that strikes down legislation. So there's actually 70 00:03:29,893 --> 00:03:32,412 Speaker 3: very few kind of checks and balances on the Parliament. 71 00:03:32,853 --> 00:03:35,053 Speaker 3: Why did we get main check and balances that you 72 00:03:35,053 --> 00:03:36,653 Speaker 3: can toss them out and so you should do that 73 00:03:36,653 --> 00:03:38,693 Speaker 3: more eagerly. So that's the argument. 74 00:03:38,693 --> 00:03:40,333 Speaker 4: Well, why do we get rid of the upper House? 75 00:03:40,373 --> 00:03:43,213 Speaker 4: In the fifties, what was it called the Legislative Council 76 00:03:43,333 --> 00:03:44,493 Speaker 4: or the Legislative Council. 77 00:03:44,653 --> 00:03:47,573 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well I think people sort of wondered what 78 00:03:47,613 --> 00:03:49,533 Speaker 3: was the point of it all, you know, had this 79 00:03:49,613 --> 00:03:54,333 Speaker 3: group and they'd slow things down. So we went sort 80 00:03:54,373 --> 00:03:57,213 Speaker 3: of what's called uni cameral, which is to just have 81 00:03:57,453 --> 00:04:00,853 Speaker 3: the house and no upper house. If you're funny enough, 82 00:04:00,893 --> 00:04:02,773 Speaker 3: if you go and look at some of the Australian states, 83 00:04:03,933 --> 00:04:05,853 Speaker 3: I mean each of the states have a Parliament and 84 00:04:06,253 --> 00:04:09,172 Speaker 3: an upper and a lower house, but Queen has gone 85 00:04:09,213 --> 00:04:12,853 Speaker 3: to just one chamber like us. I think it's so 86 00:04:13,093 --> 00:04:15,733 Speaker 3: it's nice and efficient. We can actually get things done, 87 00:04:16,693 --> 00:04:20,293 Speaker 3: but you know, there's fewer checks and balances, I suppose, so. 88 00:04:20,453 --> 00:04:23,693 Speaker 4: Get things done, but sometimes stupid things get done. Can 89 00:04:23,733 --> 00:04:25,853 Speaker 4: you ask well, that's right. Can you ask the minister 90 00:04:25,933 --> 00:04:29,053 Speaker 4: says this Texter, why they didn't save some cash and 91 00:04:29,133 --> 00:04:31,733 Speaker 4: just add the question to the ballot paper for the 92 00:04:31,533 --> 00:04:35,853 Speaker 4: for the election because I think apart from Tipati Maori, 93 00:04:35,893 --> 00:04:39,853 Speaker 4: I think broadly most of the other parties are for 94 00:04:40,013 --> 00:04:41,693 Speaker 4: the idea for a year term. 95 00:04:42,573 --> 00:04:45,373 Speaker 3: Oh well, yeah, there's no there's a variety of opinions 96 00:04:45,653 --> 00:04:50,253 Speaker 3: on that, you know. Some Yeah, I wouldn't say it 97 00:04:50,293 --> 00:04:54,093 Speaker 3: was a slam dunk amongst parliamentarians, but you can do 98 00:04:54,133 --> 00:04:56,573 Speaker 3: a referendum at the election. I think it was going 99 00:04:56,613 --> 00:04:58,853 Speaker 3: to cost twenty odd million bucks. You can't just stick 100 00:04:58,893 --> 00:05:01,813 Speaker 3: it on the same ballot papers. You have to have 101 00:05:01,813 --> 00:05:03,733 Speaker 3: separate ones. And then you know, you have to have 102 00:05:03,773 --> 00:05:07,653 Speaker 3: an education campaign to explain to people what it's all 103 00:05:07,693 --> 00:05:10,773 Speaker 3: about and what the differences are and pensive. So it's 104 00:05:10,773 --> 00:05:12,773 Speaker 3: not it's not a you know, it's not it's not nothing. 105 00:05:13,853 --> 00:05:17,133 Speaker 3: Uh and but but it's but you know, it's also 106 00:05:18,093 --> 00:05:19,533 Speaker 3: you know, you've got you've got to end up talking 107 00:05:19,573 --> 00:05:22,893 Speaker 3: about it, discussing it and and and you know, we 108 00:05:23,213 --> 00:05:25,253 Speaker 3: make a decision as a government, well what you know, 109 00:05:25,293 --> 00:05:28,053 Speaker 3: what do we really want to be focusing on? And 110 00:05:28,093 --> 00:05:30,533 Speaker 3: like I say, we we want to focus on a 111 00:05:30,573 --> 00:05:34,333 Speaker 3: bunch of other things around this. But yeah, there's got 112 00:05:34,413 --> 00:05:37,453 Speaker 3: arguments both ways, and the legislation is still in the 113 00:05:37,493 --> 00:05:41,013 Speaker 3: House halfway through, and you know, if we're blessed with 114 00:05:41,133 --> 00:05:44,773 Speaker 3: another term, we can come back and consider it down 115 00:05:44,813 --> 00:05:45,333 Speaker 3: the line. 116 00:05:45,813 --> 00:05:48,573 Speaker 4: So you it has to be a referendum. You can't 117 00:05:48,613 --> 00:05:52,053 Speaker 4: just push it through and vote on it within your term. 118 00:05:52,853 --> 00:05:55,373 Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean people have suggested we should just 119 00:05:55,373 --> 00:05:58,733 Speaker 3: extend this term to five years, but people tend to 120 00:05:58,733 --> 00:06:00,373 Speaker 3: frown it that kind of thing. 121 00:06:02,253 --> 00:06:04,813 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So. 122 00:06:04,813 --> 00:06:06,533 Speaker 3: I mean, if that's what just suggesting, I can take 123 00:06:06,533 --> 00:06:11,693 Speaker 3: it back to my colleagues and we can think about it. 124 00:06:11,733 --> 00:06:16,373 Speaker 4: So you mentioned the you know, it's harder to get 125 00:06:16,413 --> 00:06:19,333 Speaker 4: elected for a third term than a second term obviously historically. 126 00:06:19,373 --> 00:06:21,893 Speaker 4: So do you guys believe in this enough to get 127 00:06:21,893 --> 00:06:24,573 Speaker 4: it going next time when it's more likely that you'd 128 00:06:24,653 --> 00:06:28,093 Speaker 4: end up in four years or even eight years in opposition? 129 00:06:29,453 --> 00:06:33,093 Speaker 3: Well, I mean the the I mean, that's one of 130 00:06:33,093 --> 00:06:35,653 Speaker 3: the arguments against it that's been put to me by people, 131 00:06:35,653 --> 00:06:38,573 Speaker 3: which is to say that, you know, in New Zealand, 132 00:06:40,693 --> 00:06:45,653 Speaker 3: most governments get elected for a second term unless you're 133 00:06:45,653 --> 00:06:48,573 Speaker 3: particularly bad, in which case, you probably want to be 134 00:06:48,573 --> 00:06:51,893 Speaker 3: thrown out. But if you're if you're good, will be 135 00:06:52,053 --> 00:06:54,933 Speaker 3: re elected, So why would you want to sort of 136 00:06:55,013 --> 00:06:59,733 Speaker 3: change that? But in terms of the cycles, it has 137 00:06:59,813 --> 00:07:02,573 Speaker 3: been the case that three terms has been kind of 138 00:07:02,613 --> 00:07:04,253 Speaker 3: as far as people have got for a long time. 139 00:07:04,293 --> 00:07:06,973 Speaker 3: But I'm very confident this current government's going to change 140 00:07:06,973 --> 00:07:09,333 Speaker 3: that we're going to be here for five terms at least. 141 00:07:09,893 --> 00:07:10,813 Speaker 2: That's some confidence. 142 00:07:11,053 --> 00:07:12,493 Speaker 3: Very good, isn't that obvious to you? 143 00:07:13,533 --> 00:07:15,453 Speaker 2: Wow, you're getting some good support on the text matters. 144 00:07:15,693 --> 00:07:19,773 Speaker 2: Now here's an interesting idea. So four years. 145 00:07:19,693 --> 00:07:22,653 Speaker 4: If this text machine currently was the election, you'd be 146 00:07:22,693 --> 00:07:23,213 Speaker 4: doing very well. 147 00:07:23,293 --> 00:07:23,493 Speaker 1: Yeah. 148 00:07:23,573 --> 00:07:26,213 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So here's a suggestion. Can you please ask the 149 00:07:26,253 --> 00:07:28,653 Speaker 2: minister what about the four years for the first term 150 00:07:28,693 --> 00:07:30,933 Speaker 2: and then three years for the second term? So you've 151 00:07:30,933 --> 00:07:33,333 Speaker 2: got to prove yourself you've got some runway for the 152 00:07:33,333 --> 00:07:36,053 Speaker 2: first time and then you've only got three years in 153 00:07:36,093 --> 00:07:36,653 Speaker 2: the second time. 154 00:07:37,813 --> 00:07:40,853 Speaker 3: Well, well that's the suggestion. That's not one that I've 155 00:07:40,893 --> 00:07:44,053 Speaker 3: heard before. But I ask yourself this. I mean, you know, 156 00:07:44,133 --> 00:07:45,933 Speaker 3: you look around the world. You know that the Brits 157 00:07:45,933 --> 00:07:48,773 Speaker 3: have got five year terms. I mean, are they better governed? 158 00:07:48,973 --> 00:07:50,973 Speaker 3: Is there any sort of evidence to suggest that the. 159 00:07:51,093 --> 00:07:53,693 Speaker 4: You know, the sell three minutes. 160 00:07:54,293 --> 00:07:57,733 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I mean I think, yeah, I 161 00:07:57,773 --> 00:08:01,453 Speaker 3: think the important thing in you know, with any government 162 00:08:01,533 --> 00:08:04,173 Speaker 3: is that you're clear what you're setting out to achieve, 163 00:08:05,093 --> 00:08:08,333 Speaker 3: and then you get held to account after a certain 164 00:08:08,333 --> 00:08:10,133 Speaker 3: period of its three years or four years and you've 165 00:08:10,133 --> 00:08:12,493 Speaker 3: got to front up and you know, so, well, yep, 166 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:14,613 Speaker 3: we might not have solved every problem, but you know 167 00:08:14,693 --> 00:08:16,733 Speaker 3: we're heading in the right direction. Give us some more 168 00:08:16,773 --> 00:08:18,493 Speaker 3: time and you know that's going to be our pitching 169 00:08:18,653 --> 00:08:23,133 Speaker 3: at the end of the year. Ultimately, that's the key dynamic, 170 00:08:23,253 --> 00:08:25,813 Speaker 3: and that's you know that we're blessed as a country 171 00:08:25,853 --> 00:08:28,253 Speaker 3: to be one of the few countries where around the 172 00:08:28,253 --> 00:08:30,413 Speaker 3: world where you know, people do have that choice and 173 00:08:30,613 --> 00:08:32,013 Speaker 3: you know, if they don't like how things are going, 174 00:08:32,093 --> 00:08:34,213 Speaker 3: and kick us out and try with somebody else. 175 00:08:34,893 --> 00:08:38,893 Speaker 4: We're talking to Minister of Justice, Paul Goldsmith. Final question. 176 00:08:39,333 --> 00:08:41,372 Speaker 4: So this is coming through because the argument is that 177 00:08:41,413 --> 00:08:43,893 Speaker 4: you get in, you learn what you know, you get 178 00:08:43,892 --> 00:08:46,493 Speaker 4: your bearings. Then you spend a year doing something, you 179 00:08:46,533 --> 00:08:50,773 Speaker 4: spend a year electioneering. Honestly speaking, in an election year, 180 00:08:51,012 --> 00:08:54,772 Speaker 4: what percentage of your time is spent getting getting re elected? 181 00:08:54,892 --> 00:08:57,933 Speaker 4: As opposed to running the country and making things better. 182 00:08:58,813 --> 00:09:02,453 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I mean and I think that's well 183 00:09:03,093 --> 00:09:06,653 Speaker 3: a fair amount, but not not not an overwhelming amount. 184 00:09:06,973 --> 00:09:08,733 Speaker 3: And you know, I think you just go back to 185 00:09:09,132 --> 00:09:10,892 Speaker 3: this idea that you spent the first year sort of 186 00:09:10,892 --> 00:09:14,413 Speaker 3: figuring things out, and that is you know, that's that's 187 00:09:14,492 --> 00:09:18,213 Speaker 3: what that's what's called preparation. And you know our criticism 188 00:09:18,293 --> 00:09:22,493 Speaker 3: of the the justinder durned government and they came in, 189 00:09:22,573 --> 00:09:24,372 Speaker 3: they didn't seem to expect to have come in and 190 00:09:25,093 --> 00:09:27,493 Speaker 3: they didn't really know what they were doing and fluffed around, 191 00:09:27,573 --> 00:09:30,373 Speaker 3: whereas you know, we had you know, I'd argue that 192 00:09:30,413 --> 00:09:33,213 Speaker 3: we had a very clear plan, you know, from in 193 00:09:33,252 --> 00:09:35,293 Speaker 3: the justice space and restoring law and order. We had 194 00:09:35,372 --> 00:09:37,372 Speaker 3: a bunch of things we want to do, tough enough sentences, 195 00:09:37,413 --> 00:09:40,573 Speaker 3: you know, change the focus, and and we're ripped into 196 00:09:40,612 --> 00:09:42,533 Speaker 3: it on day one and we're just going flat out 197 00:09:42,533 --> 00:09:44,732 Speaker 3: ever since. And so you don't have to muck around 198 00:09:44,732 --> 00:09:46,533 Speaker 3: for a year. If you're organized and you know what 199 00:09:46,533 --> 00:09:49,933 Speaker 3: you're doing, then that's uh that that all works pretty well. 200 00:09:50,213 --> 00:09:53,093 Speaker 3: But then in the third year, yes, you know, the 201 00:09:53,132 --> 00:09:56,652 Speaker 3: election looms on the horizon, but you're elected to government 202 00:09:56,933 --> 00:09:58,853 Speaker 3: right up to the end. And so we're not, you know, 203 00:09:58,892 --> 00:10:02,653 Speaker 3: we're not sort of just stopping all all sort of 204 00:10:02,653 --> 00:10:06,333 Speaker 3: policy and just focusing on sort of talking to town 205 00:10:06,372 --> 00:10:10,093 Speaker 3: hall audiences. We're definitely focused on getting as much done 206 00:10:10,132 --> 00:10:10,973 Speaker 3: as we possibly can. 207 00:10:11,132 --> 00:10:12,693 Speaker 4: Would you be willing to put a percentage of it, 208 00:10:12,933 --> 00:10:17,933 Speaker 4: how much electioneering and how much governing, I'd. 209 00:10:17,612 --> 00:10:22,413 Speaker 3: Say it'd be ninety percent governing. You can't disentangle it 210 00:10:22,492 --> 00:10:24,533 Speaker 3: perfectly in the sense that you know, I mean, we're 211 00:10:24,612 --> 00:10:26,453 Speaker 3: you know, when you're out there talking to people all 212 00:10:26,492 --> 00:10:26,813 Speaker 3: the time. 213 00:10:27,012 --> 00:10:29,053 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you've given us about two percent of your 214 00:10:29,093 --> 00:10:32,053 Speaker 2: day today, Minister say, thanks you very well, thanks very much. Yeah, 215 00:10:32,093 --> 00:10:33,653 Speaker 2: thank you very much. You always good to catch up 216 00:10:33,653 --> 00:10:35,413 Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll catch up again soon. That is just 217 00:10:35,453 --> 00:10:36,613 Speaker 2: as Minister Paul Goldsmith 218 00:10:37,053 --> 00:10:39,732 Speaker 1: For more from News Talk said, b listen live on 219 00:10:39,813 --> 00:10:42,773 Speaker 1: air or online and keep our shows with you wherever 220 00:10:42,813 --> 00:10:45,373 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.