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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast

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Speaker 1: from News Talk zedb.

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Speaker 2: Manja song names such Bound mord Any of you were

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Speaker 2: Jack Taime on newstalks 'b Who else could pull off

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Speaker 2: turning one of the world's biggest pop stars into a chimpanzee?

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Speaker 3: Who else but Wetter Effects. Weta, of course, is well

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Speaker 3: known for incredible visual effects and TV and film, and

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Speaker 3: when megastar Robbie Williams said make me an ape, it

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Speaker 3: was only natural that Weta were the ones who got

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Speaker 3: the call. And the man who was responsible for that

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Speaker 3: incredible transformation in the film Better Man was visual effects

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Speaker 3: supervisor Luke Miller. He was nominated for an OSCAR for

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Speaker 3: his work and he joins us this morning. Kilder, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, very happy to be here.

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Speaker 3: Visual effects supervisor. Does that mean that you're the guy

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Speaker 3: sitting behind the computer hitting refresh or rendering the images?

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Speaker 3: Does it mean that you're the guy in front of

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Speaker 3: the green screen with the funny little balls and a

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Speaker 3: weird outfit. What is your job?

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Speaker 4: Well, typically, a visual effects supervisor is responsible for the

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Speaker 4: visual effects component of a movie. I think pretty much

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Speaker 4: these days every movie will have a visual effects component.

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Speaker 4: Most of it will be invisible, and it's everything from

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Speaker 4: sort of designing the shots, how to work with the

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Speaker 4: director to delivery of the final work that will then

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Speaker 4: go into the film.

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Speaker 3: And so is it your job to coordinate all the

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Speaker 3: different things that encompass visual effect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, to sort of plan how we're going to tackle

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Speaker 4: the work, what the best way to do it is, yeah,

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Speaker 4: how to make sure things are efficient, and then also

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Speaker 4: presenting that work back to the director.

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Speaker 3: So theoretically, if I was making a film about a

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Speaker 3: meteor blazing towards Earth that was going to destroy the

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Speaker 3: entire planet, and I came to you and said, right,

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Speaker 3: what is the best way to do this? What is

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Speaker 3: the best way to render this image on the big screen?

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Speaker 3: Would it be your job to say, Well, we could

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Speaker 3: do it by say, getting a basketball in front of

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Speaker 3: a green screen and putting it putting it across the screen,

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Speaker 3: or we could use this kind of sophisticated computing in

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Speaker 3: order to make that image from scratch like it. Would

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Speaker 3: it be your call to decide how best to make it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I'll be talking you out of the basketball

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Speaker 4: green screen plan for starters, and just yes saying Okay,

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Speaker 4: if we want to produce a shot like that, this

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Speaker 4: will be the best way to do it. And obviously,

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Speaker 4: you know you've got making the shots themselves, but also

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Speaker 4: the cast and everyone else involved and how they integrate

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Speaker 4: with the media, and so it's sort of just trying

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Speaker 4: to plan out how to get the best, most realistic

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Speaker 4: looking results with all of those different variables.

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Speaker 3: In bold how much money are variable.

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Speaker 4: That's a huge variable, always the main one. Everyone wants.

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Speaker 4: Everyone wants more for less, So being creative and efficient

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Speaker 4: is always the name of the game. But yeah, also

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Speaker 4: making sure that you're fulfilling the vision of the director.

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Speaker 3: So for example, to use the media or example, once again,

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Speaker 3: if I came to you and I said, I want

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Speaker 3: to have a perfectly realistic media you're coming to earth,

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Speaker 3: but I've got five grand to do it, you'd be like, right,

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Speaker 3: I know, I know a green screen and we've got

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Speaker 3: some fishing line. Whereas if I said, you know, not

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Speaker 3: not money is no object, but perhaps I've got a

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Speaker 3: I've got a Hollywood blockbuster kind of budget at my fingertips,

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Speaker 3: then you might have a completely different approach.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean the approach might be similar, but it

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Speaker 4: might be the way in which we frame the shots.

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Speaker 4: For example, you know, like an epic wide of the

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Speaker 4: media crashing through space is obviously going to have a

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Speaker 4: lot of components to it. But then you can sort

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Speaker 4: of you know, push in, get closer to the media

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Speaker 4: and not the whole media. You know, there's always solutions

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Speaker 4: to the visual problem that you're trying to solve, but

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Speaker 4: you don't necessarily some can have more cost of implications

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Speaker 4: than others, so you know, it's always about finding the

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Speaker 4: right balance.

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Speaker 3: You've been working in the industry for a few years now,

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Speaker 3: but how does one get to a point where you

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Speaker 3: know what the best solution is?

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Speaker 4: I think the best solution is always changing. You know,

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Speaker 4: technology has been advancing at a rate of knots for

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Speaker 4: many years throughout my whole career, and the things that

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Speaker 4: we used to be able to do twenty years ago,

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Speaker 4: you know, would take like, you know, nothing to do now,

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Speaker 4: and also what audiences want as well, Like, there's definitely

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Speaker 4: a very big onus at the moment on practical and

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Speaker 4: integrating with that kind of practical component. So what does

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Speaker 4: that mean? Think, well, there's always a physical component to

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Speaker 4: most of the work that we do. Right, we go

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Speaker 4: onto move sets. There are actors, there's sets, there's locations.

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Speaker 4: There's the special effects team, which are the people who

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Speaker 4: actually make things explode, you know, on set, and our

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Speaker 4: work invariably dovetails into everything that they do. And so

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Speaker 4: you know, the kind of in the work between all

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Speaker 4: of the tangible work that say, goes into a movie

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Speaker 4: and the digital stuff which we're responsible for.

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Speaker 3: Right, So that's interesting that audience is kind of what

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Speaker 3: you're saying, is they actually value more real stuff today.

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Speaker 3: Do you think do you think is that because the

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Speaker 3: unreal for one of a better term, or digitized, you know,

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Speaker 3: forms of storytelling have become much more ubiquitous and much

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Speaker 3: more available. Actually people are kind of thirsting for stuff

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Speaker 3: that's more grounded in reality.

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Speaker 4: I think people just really enjoy it when there's something

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Speaker 4: that you can physically touch, you know, like you can see.

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Speaker 4: I don't think it really actually makes that much difference

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Speaker 4: to the enjoyment of the movie, especially if the work

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Speaker 4: is seemless. I think most of the time people don't know.

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Speaker 4: But I think when there's when you can sort of

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Speaker 4: you know, see it behind the scene shot and see

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Speaker 4: that this castle actually existed, and you can go visit it.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's the same reason why places like Hobbiton

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Speaker 4: are so popular to go and visit now, because they're there.

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Speaker 4: You know, you can see them, you can walk up

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Speaker 4: to the doors, and if they only ever existed as

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Speaker 4: a digital thing, then you don't you sort of lose

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Speaker 4: that connection a little bit with it. So, you know,

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Speaker 4: I think for a long time, more and more digital

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Speaker 4: work was being used, and I think that's been sort

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Speaker 4: of slowly, sort of pared back in collaboration with all

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Speaker 4: the practical work so that you do get the best

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Speaker 4: of both worlds.

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Speaker 3: You said that most of the time people watching movies

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Speaker 3: don't notice, and you said earlier that good visual effects

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Speaker 3: are usually invisible, but they might be invisible to someone

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Speaker 3: like me. What's it like for you going to the

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Speaker 3: movies and watching someone else's work. Do you find yourself

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Speaker 3: constantly critiquing the visual effects?

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Speaker 4: I yeah, it depends like it depends on the movie.

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Speaker 4: And I always think this is a testament to how

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Speaker 4: good the film is. Is if I'm sitting there totally

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Speaker 4: engrossed in the story and the work is flying by

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Speaker 4: and I haven't paid any attention to it, then I

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Speaker 4: know it's a great film. If I'm sitting there studying

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Speaker 4: the work that's been done, then obviously it's not got

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Speaker 4: my attention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it must happen sometimes, and you must have

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Speaker 3: a much more discerning eye for it than you know,

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Speaker 3: the average punter going along to the movies.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, Yeah. There's certain films which I you know,

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Speaker 4: I just haven't been able to watch properly, and in

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Speaker 4: particular ones that I've worked on as well. You know,

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Speaker 4: that's the most impossible thing to watch objectively. You just

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Speaker 4: end up looking at the things that you wish you'd done.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It does it change when it's on a big screen

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Speaker 3: as well? Like there what you know, if you're looking

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Speaker 3: at something in an edit suite and maybe you've got

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Speaker 3: a couple of computer monitors, well you can I'm just

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Speaker 3: imagining here that it might be easier to look at

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Speaker 3: a tiny blemish or something that's not quite perfect and say, oh,

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Speaker 3: well that's not that noticeable. But then when you put

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Speaker 3: it up on a screen that's sixty feet across, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of a different experience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we do, we do actually view stuff

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Speaker 4: throughout the whole process, and pretty big screens for this reason,

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Speaker 4: and but one thing. When we finish touching the work,

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Speaker 4: you know it hasn't had the final color adjustments done

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Speaker 4: to it. The sound isn't there yet. There's still a

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Speaker 4: lot more that happens afterwards, and so you know, when

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Speaker 4: you actually see the work in the context of the

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Speaker 4: film and not looping over on repeat, you know, you

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Speaker 4: see it fly by. With all of the additional work

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Speaker 4: that comes from the sound and post production teams. A

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Speaker 4: lot of things you obsess over didn't actually matter that

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Speaker 4: much in the end, and sometimes some detail that you

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Speaker 4: didn't think mattered, you're like, oh, man, more attention to that.

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Speaker 3: So tell us, tell us how you got involved with

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Speaker 3: better Man.

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Speaker 4: So we were doing some pre visualization work wedder, which

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Speaker 4: is typically a process that happens before you shoot. It's

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Speaker 4: you do. You do it in the computer. It's a

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Speaker 4: very quick and cost effective way of working out what

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Speaker 4: your shots look like, the camera angles, what the action

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Speaker 4: should be, and you can try lots of things out

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Speaker 4: quite quickly, and so they did. The ten musical sequences

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Speaker 4: in the movie were all pre visualized before we started shooting,

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Speaker 4: and it comes very cost heavy to try and do

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Speaker 4: that on the day when you're actually trying to film,

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Speaker 4: and so after seeing a couple of those sequences, I

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Speaker 4: read the script and that was me. I was all

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Speaker 4: in at that point to want to take on the challenge.

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Speaker 3: Because it's such a unique film. I I think I

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Speaker 3: think most of our audience will will have seen it,

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Speaker 3: or will at the very least be aware of it.

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Speaker 3: I just remember when I first saw the trailer and

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Speaker 3: I was like, hang on, there's an ape. Robbie Williams

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Speaker 3: is being played by an ape. Said it was kind

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Speaker 3: of like a second take. Did you have the same experience.

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Speaker 4: No, I mean I grew up in the nineties and

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Speaker 4: I was around Robbie's career the whole time. I'm very

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Speaker 4: familiar with the backdrop of which the movie takes place

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Speaker 4: and him as a character, and it just it was

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Speaker 4: just a natural fit. The other thing I find with

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Speaker 4: a lot of musical biopics is they typically cast an

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Speaker 4: actor who looks similar, or they make them look similar

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Speaker 4: through hair and makeup, but they're never quite there. There

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Speaker 4: was like, you know, like a very close replica of

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Speaker 4: that person, and sometimes it can actually bump you out

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Speaker 4: of the film a little bit. By making Robbie an

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Speaker 4: ape in the film.

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Speaker 3: You continue get a practice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean we were very faithful to the costumes that

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Speaker 4: he wore, the hairstars that he had. You know, everything

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Speaker 4: is anchored in reality, but the actual physical look of

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Speaker 4: Robbie is very removed from the real Robbie.

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Speaker 3: It's such a good point. I'm speaking with Luke Miller

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Speaker 3: from Weta Effects about his job and specifically about his

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Speaker 3: role on the Robbie Williams biopic Better Man. There's that

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Speaker 3: one scene I've got to ask you about the scene

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Speaker 3: for Rock DJ. So we've got the numbers here, five

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Speaker 3: three hundred and thirty four frames, five digital costume chat,

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Speaker 3: fifty dancers, all filmed on location on Regent Street. I

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Speaker 3: think it seems like three and a half minutes long.

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Speaker 3: How did you go about a challenge like that?

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Speaker 4: I was going to say, I think it's five hundred

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Speaker 4: dances we had.

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Speaker 3: And five hundred okay, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So we'd obviously planned out meticulously where we were going

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Speaker 4: to go, we'd pre visualize the whole move, we'd figured

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Speaker 4: out where we could actually physically move a camera down

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Speaker 4: the street, and we rehearsed for four days straight in

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Speaker 4: a sort of aircraft hangar. It is the only place

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Speaker 4: that was big enough that we could sort of tape

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Speaker 4: out Regent Street on the floor to practice where everyone

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Speaker 4: needed to be. And then we shot for four nights

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Speaker 4: straight in doing the different sections. And you know, there's

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Speaker 4: so so many variables in a shot like that. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's certain things like one example is the pogo sticks

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Speaker 4: the boys take. That boys all had to learn how

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Speaker 4: to pogo stick in sync to the music at a

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Speaker 4: particular time, and that stuff can't be can't be fixed

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Speaker 4: after the fact in post. That has to happen on

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Speaker 4: the street in front of the camera. And so it

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Speaker 4: was very typical for every single night for us to

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Speaker 4: do over forty takes for each section to be able

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Speaker 4: to then stitch it together to make the oner.

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Speaker 3: It's just like a fantastical logistical operation, but it's just

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Speaker 3: all of these different kind of components and dynamics that

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Speaker 3: you have to somehow coordinate to pull off something like

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Speaker 3: that is kind of extraordinary, but pull it off. You did.

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Speaker 3: Congratulations on your Oscar nomination this year.

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Speaker 1: How was that?

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Speaker 4: Oh, that was an incredible experience. I was, you know,

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Speaker 4: Better Man was definitely one of the outside movies. I

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Speaker 4: think in the in the race and you know, it

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Speaker 4: was very It was very proud and a humbling moment

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Speaker 4: for on that stage one and represent all the work

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Speaker 4: that all the artists, production everyone had put into it.

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Speaker 4: Obviously I would have loved to have gone one step

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Speaker 4: further and of won, but you know, even even just

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Speaker 4: getting nominated was incredible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. So where do you see the

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Speaker 3: kind of field going? Are we heading towards a world

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Speaker 3: where you can just go to a computer and type

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Speaker 3: and a prompt and basically it'll have the perfect meeting

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Speaker 3: or crashing towards Earth?

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Speaker 4: I think that will There is a possibility that that

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Speaker 4: world exists. But the problem is is that you still

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Speaker 4: need to tell stories. And you know, one thing I

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Speaker 4: find especially with AI, is it can only draw on

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Speaker 4: what exists in the world up unto that point, right,

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Speaker 4: It can't come up with new ideas, and so you

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Speaker 4: still need people to tell come up with stories, and

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Speaker 4: to tell real ideas. I mean, I think one area

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Speaker 4: it's grateful is sort of doing some of the menial

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Speaker 4: tasks than the visual effects space, the stuff which you know,

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Speaker 4: people get very frustrated with monotonous tasks that you just

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Speaker 4: do over and over again. Absolutely we'll give that to

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Speaker 4: the machines. But I think we'll always need human beings

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Speaker 4: to tell stories.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hope. So look at such a pleasure to

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Speaker 3: speak with you. Thank you so much for giving us

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Speaker 3: your time, and congratulations on the success of better Man.

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Speaker 4: Awesome. Thank you Jack.

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Speaker 3: That is Luke Miller from Wetter Effects. He was nominated

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Speaker 3: for an Oscar for his work on better Man. A

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Speaker 3: visual effects supervisor. Sounds like a hell of a job.

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Speaker 3: Bay And if you missed out on seeing the Oscar

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Speaker 3: nominated better Man in Cinema's good news. It's going to

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Speaker 3: be on Neon from the twenty sixth of July, so

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Speaker 3: a week today, better Man will hit Neon will have

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Speaker 3: all the details on the news talks.

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Speaker 1: He'd be websites for more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame.

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Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks he'd be from nine am Saturday,

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Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.