1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: Government has today asked Sport New Zealand to review and 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: update their principles for the inclusion of transgender people in 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: community sport, outlining that the current guidelines don't reflect expectations 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: that sport be about fairness and safety as well as diversity, 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: inclusion and equity. The Minister in charge of this is 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: Chris Bishop, who's with this this evening Kilda, Good afternoon. Well, 7 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: what does this actually mean. 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: It means that Sport New Zealand will be updating the 9 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: guidelines they published and well first published in December twenty 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 2: twenty two. They're not mandatory. They're just guiding principles around 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 2: the inclusion of transgender people in community sport. This is 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: not about elite sport where there are different rules obviously, 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: so they'll be updating those guidelines and I'm expecting an 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: update from them in the coming months. 15 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: And what does it mean for the inclusion of transgender 16 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: people in community sport. 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: It's just simply making the point that it is really 18 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: important that transgender people can participate at the community level. 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: But the way the guidelines work at the moment is 20 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: they're solely focused or almost near exclusively focused on diversity inclusion, 21 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: and equity. But it's our view, and I think many 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: people in the community's view that sport is also about 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: fairness and safety, and so it's just making sure the 24 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: guidelines reflect those legitimate expectations as well. And so it's 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: about taking a bit more of a balanced approach to 26 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: what the guidelines say. 27 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: Why is fairness an issue when it comes to community. 28 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: Sport Because sport is ultimately about competition and about winning 29 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: and losing and about competing, and I think most people 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: who follow sport will know that, even at a community level, 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: it's really important that it's fair, and so the guidelines 32 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: will be updated to reflect that. 33 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: Will this mean do you think that transgender people? Do 34 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: you think fewer transgender people will pay community sport? 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: Well, I really hope not. And as part of kind 36 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: of coming to the view that we need to date 37 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: the guidelines, I have talked to a range of different 38 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: people in the community and a range of different organizations, 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: and my hope and expectations that doesn't happen. And I 40 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: think we need to realize that these are just these 41 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: are just guiding principles. These are not mandatory, They're just 42 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: designed to help sporting organizations grapple with. It's quite tricky issue. 43 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: It is a tricky issue. I know, it's really contentious, 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: but why wouldn't that happen? 45 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 2: Well, ultimately, it's over to sporting bodies to develop rules 46 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: and regulations and guidance. 47 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: They've been able to do that already, I mean, they 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: can do that now, there's nothing to say they. 49 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: Can, and they can and they are. They are, I 50 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 2: mean many of them are. The reason why these guidelines 51 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: existed in the first place is that many of the 52 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: sports said, look, we just really need some help here, 53 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: we don't really know what we're doing. And so they 54 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: went to Sport New Zealand, which is the kind of 55 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: you know, overarching body, and support the zeal And develop 56 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: these guidelines and up in there for a couple of 57 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 2: years now almost a couple of years. I'm just asking 58 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: them to update them to reflect the fact that it's 59 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: not just about inclusion that is really important, but it's 60 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: also about fairness and safety. 61 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: But why wouldn't it mean fewer transgender people playing community sport. 62 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, ultimately, we want everyone to be able 63 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: to toicipate community sport, and we want everyone to be 64 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: able to join their local rugby club, join their local 65 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: softball club, basket or whatever it is that people choose 66 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 2: to do. I want as many people playing sport as 67 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: possible in New Zealand. It's just about making sure we 68 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 2: do that in a way that is inclusive of everybody 69 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: but also recognizes the realities of having transgender people participate 70 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: at a community level. It does produce challenges for sports, 71 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: and it does produce challenges for clubs, and it's just 72 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: about navigating our way through that as a community and 73 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: making sure that everyone feel safe and accepted. 74 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: Why won't that mean fewer transgender people playing community sport? 75 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it will. 76 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: Why not? 77 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: Well, because I backed sports and I back sporting bodies. 78 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: And sporting bodies can suit their own stead there's now 79 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: we've established that. So why won't giving sports in these rules. 80 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: Why won't that mean fewer transgender people playing sport? 81 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: Well because I think actually that the guidelines have been 82 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: well received by the sporting by sporting bodies. 83 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: But that doesn't explain why fewer Why it won't mean 84 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: fewer transgender people playing. 85 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Sport, But it also doesn't explain why there will be 86 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you sort of a little bit secured us. 87 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: I mean, the guidelines are out there, sporting bodies wanted them, 88 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: they've been published. I'm asking them to be updated to 89 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: reflect more a slightly more balanced approach to the way 90 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 2: in which they are utilized by by sporting bodies. I 91 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: have every expectation that transgender people will be able to 92 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: participate in the community sport, and in fact I welcome 93 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: that because I want everyone who wants to play sports 94 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: to be able to do so. 95 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: So if a transgender person can't play a sport playing 96 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: as part of a team, for example, in the gender 97 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: for which they identify, what do they do? 98 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: It depends that this is the thing is. There's no 99 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 2: hard and fast rules here, right, and it depends on 100 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: the sport. So treason, for example, has an open category 101 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: that anyone can participate in, including transgender people. New Zealand 102 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: Rugby League already has a policy that at age thirteen 103 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: and over, you have to participate in the gender that 104 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: you're assigned at birth. So it really depends on the 105 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: sporting code. Some sports are more of a further advance 106 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: on dealing with this than others. Some bodies just don't 107 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: even have a policy around this stuff. Some are more advances. 108 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: I've ser indicated a couple of examples. So there are 109 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: part of the issue with this is that there aren't 110 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: hard and fast rules, and often the debate, the debate 111 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: descends into binaries, and actually, you know that's part of 112 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: the problem that you can't the part of fast rules. 113 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I thank you for your time. I know 114 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: it is a contentious issue, so we appreciate your time. 115 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: This evening. That is Chris Bishop right now, it's nineteen 116 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: to six. 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