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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast

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Speaker 1: from News Talks that'd be.

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Speaker 2: Clinical psychologist Google Sutherland is all with us this morning,

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Speaker 2: calder Doogle.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Jack, I's to be with you again.

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Speaker 2: We started the show this morning by talking about the

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Speaker 2: program Adolescence, which has it didn't just rely on my

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Speaker 2: Rave review, has had gazillions of Rave reviews and tens

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Speaker 2: of millions of views since it went live on Netflix

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: You've seen it, yes, absolutely, Binge watched it in tonight.

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Speaker 2: Ah, how good? Okay, So as a clinical psychologist without

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Speaker 2: giving two much of the plot away, how did that

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Speaker 2: impact the way that you watched the show?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what?

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Speaker 3: It hit me more a little bit like you were

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Speaker 3: talking about at the start of the show, that actually

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Speaker 3: hit me more on a personal level, particularly that final episode,

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Speaker 3: thinking about my role as a dad and as a

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Speaker 3: father and what I have you know, and how I've

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Speaker 3: parented my son. Yeah, and I've just found it really

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Speaker 3: I think there was particularly and I found that last episode,

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Speaker 3: I guess from a psychological perspective too, really fascinating, all

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Speaker 3: the little subtle things that the father does and says,

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Speaker 3: and the way he acts that just you can just

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Speaker 3: see how that's just sown some seeds in his son,

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Speaker 3: and not deliberately, not in a but but just some

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Speaker 3: of the ways that he interacts and how what he's

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Speaker 3: modeled for his son, and about how he struggled to

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Speaker 3: he talked about I just tried to be better than

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Speaker 3: my dad. Yeah, and so I think it was. I

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Speaker 3: was really affected by it the whole next day, and

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Speaker 3: I just it's amazing on so many levels, as you know,

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Speaker 3: as you've talked about with the one track shot and

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Speaker 3: and but just on a psychological and what it says

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Speaker 3: about how to be a guy and how to raise

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Speaker 3: kids and how to raise sons. It's just amazing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Did you did you know the episode two when

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Speaker 2: they have the or it's a three when it's just

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Speaker 2: the child clinical psychologist and the main in the boy

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Speaker 2: in a room. I mean, like, I'm not expecting you've

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Speaker 2: been in those situations, but was that accurate? Do you

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Speaker 2: think was that kind of a I've.

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Speaker 3: Been and I haven't been. I haven't done a court report,

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Speaker 3: but I've certainly been. I've certainly met with young people

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Speaker 3: who are in that sort of environment. And yeah, look

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Speaker 3: there were aspects of it that are true. But also

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, my experience with young people is

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Speaker 3: often that they are quite really able to talk and

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Speaker 3: reflect and you know, but I think there was something

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Speaker 3: just you know, there was just glimmers of something in

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Speaker 3: that young thirteen year old that were slightly disturbing and

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Speaker 3: slightly worrying. But I think it's a relatively realistic portrayal

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Speaker 3: of yeah goes on. It's certainly much more realistic than

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Speaker 3: somebody lying on a couch and talking.

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Speaker 2: About yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, well I'm glad. I'm glad you found it

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Speaker 2: affecting as well. I've been ranting on down about it

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Speaker 2: this morning, which is what good art does. That's it's

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Speaker 2: you know, it is what it is. Anyway, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about presenteeism this morning. Now, people will be familiar with absentism.

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Speaker 2: Absents absenteeism is a problem. Is presentism an issue as well?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, look this is on the back of We're just

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Speaker 3: at Umbrella. We've just released some research and we've talked

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Speaker 3: to over eight and a half thousand people. Presenteeism is

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Speaker 3: that is when you turn up for work, so you're

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Speaker 3: physically present, but you're carrying with you some sort of

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Speaker 3: mental health or physical health condition that leads you to

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Speaker 3: work at less than your normal one hundred productivity. Right,

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Speaker 3: So it's it's, it's and it's it's a hidden cost.

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Speaker 3: We actually we estimated, and this is a broad estimate,

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Speaker 3: we estimated it's costing over forty billion dollars per year

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Speaker 3: in lost productivity because it's hidden, you know, because somebody

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Speaker 3: can be sitting at their des score in their workplace

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Speaker 3: wherever that is, and they're physically there, so it appears

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Speaker 3: that so it can get overlooked, but actually they're not

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Speaker 3: really producing at their full capacity. So it's a hidden

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Speaker 3: cost and lots of people aren't really aware of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so twenty five percent of eight and a

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Speaker 2: half thousand people surveyed, so they had kind of experienced it.

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Speaker 2: So talk to us about the impact on a workplace, Like,

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Speaker 2: in what ways does someone experiencing presenteers talk us through

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Speaker 2: the different ways it affects a business.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, and I think we can all relate to it.

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Speaker 3: That's on some level. We've all had a day when

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Speaker 3: you're just not quite firing on all cylinders, right, and

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Speaker 3: you get those things like low energy, you're distracted, it's

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Speaker 3: harder to focus, you might find it more difficult to

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Speaker 3: finish things or to make quick decisions. And for most

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Speaker 3: of us, you know that that might be pre you know,

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Speaker 3: on the odd day. But you know, we had twenty

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Speaker 3: five percent of the people we surveyed said that they

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Speaker 3: regularly experienced this up to about the time equivalent is

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Speaker 3: about six days per month. So imagine, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: six days per month where you are not really there.

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Speaker 3: And I think too, there's a potential, particularly if you're

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Speaker 3: working with machinery, heavy machinery or transport, that you can

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Speaker 3: make lapses in judgment or make small mistakes that could

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Speaker 3: have quite a major cost or major you know, major

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Speaker 3: effect done on your health for other people's. So it's

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Speaker 3: not like people are deliberately doing this, but they're just

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Speaker 3: their mind is on something else that they're they're worried

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Speaker 3: about something that that there, you know, there's been an

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Speaker 3: argument at home, and their minds on that instead, or

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Speaker 3: they're they're you know, their mood is low and they

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Speaker 3: can't really bring themselves to fully to work as they

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Speaker 3: usually would.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, okay, and I mean the cost can be significant.

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Speaker 2: So two thousand dollars a month per employee, which is

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Speaker 2: if you if you're extrapolated out of across the whole

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Speaker 2: of New Zealand, that's billions and billions of dollars, like

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Speaker 2: teens of billions of dollars. So what can we kind

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Speaker 2: of do about it?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think I think, to be honest, we're just

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Speaker 3: this is an emerging area for many organizations. There's lots

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Speaker 3: of international research that is that that has established us

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Speaker 3: as a presence in the workplace, But for New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: it's still sort of we're just starting the conversation. And

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Speaker 3: I'd say to workplaces, look, it's really important that you

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Speaker 3: actually get an accurate assessment of how you're going in

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Speaker 3: this area, because you know, as you've said that we've

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Speaker 3: made an estimate and extrapolated that out of across the population,

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Speaker 3: but that will vary across different workplaces and work sites.

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Speaker 3: So I'd say to organizations, get a handle on it.

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Speaker 3: You know, how much of an issue is it at

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Speaker 3: your place, and then look at the way that your

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Speaker 3: workplace is. How are people comfortable coming to work and saying, hey, look,

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Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not fully I'm not fully here today

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Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm not. I'm not at one hundred, and

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Speaker 3: either being courage to take a day off of sick

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Speaker 3: leave if that's possible, or to be able to have

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Speaker 3: some sort of flexibility in their work where their manager

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Speaker 3: or colleagues or coworkers can say, hey, look, we'll take

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Speaker 3: that extra bit off you today, you know, and recognizing

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Speaker 3: that it could be us tomorrow that needs that kind

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Speaker 3: of support. So it's how can we flexibly deal with

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Speaker 3: us and not just pretend it doesn't exist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that makes a lot of sense. Hey, thank

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Speaker 2: you Doogle. I really appreciate that someone from Umbrella Well

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Speaker 2: being there with us this morning.

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Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live

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Speaker 1: to News talks 'B from nine am Saturday, or follow

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Speaker 1: the podcast on iHeartRadio