WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #286 - May 28th 2025 - Nigel Horrocks & Justin Matthews 0:00:09.093 --> 0:00:11.973 You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 0:00:12.373 --> 0:00:16.173 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:16.693 --> 0:00:19.733 It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:19.773 --> 0:00:24.813 the information, all the debates of the now the Leighton 0:00:24.933 --> 0:00:27.653 Smith podcast coward by news talks it B. 0:00:27.973 --> 0:00:30.773 Welcome to podcast two hundred and eighty six for May 0:00:30.813 --> 0:00:33.693 twenty eight, twenty twenty five. Well, this is going to 0:00:33.693 --> 0:00:37.453 be the shortest intro I've ever done. I believe the 0:00:37.493 --> 0:00:42.013 following discussion runs about an hour fifteen minutes and it is. 0:00:42.413 --> 0:00:44.933 It's viteful to a lot of people to hear it. 0:00:44.933 --> 0:00:47.933 It's also interesting for those who think it won't be interesting, 0:00:48.293 --> 0:00:52.493 at least that's my interpretation. So we have the discussion, 0:00:52.653 --> 0:00:54.653 then we have the mail room, and then there is 0:00:55.093 --> 0:00:58.613 a little more on AI at the back end before 0:00:58.653 --> 0:01:02.173 we go. But like it or not, AI is fast 0:01:02.333 --> 0:01:05.893 changing the world in many industries. It may not have 0:01:05.893 --> 0:01:09.853 affected or involved you, yet, just as the Internet now 0:01:09.933 --> 0:01:13.133 encompasses everything and involves all of us, from how we 0:01:13.253 --> 0:01:18.093 communicate via email to shop online, AI will change the 0:01:18.093 --> 0:01:20.973 way that we do a lot of things. I was 0:01:20.973 --> 0:01:24.293 surprised myself. Now, whereas the Internet took some years to 0:01:24.333 --> 0:01:28.213 reach the mass population. AI is changing industries quicker than 0:01:28.253 --> 0:01:32.413 you would imagine, and it's bringing serious ethical questions about 0:01:32.893 --> 0:01:36.053 what we're letting ourselves in for and who is pulling 0:01:36.053 --> 0:01:38.773 the strings to control it. The big tech companies are 0:01:38.773 --> 0:01:43.173 pouring literally billions into research to be the market leader. 0:01:43.853 --> 0:01:47.493 So after a very short break, I'll introduce you to 0:01:48.093 --> 0:01:53.133 both Nigel Hurricks and Justin Matthews, who have put together 0:01:53.173 --> 0:01:56.293 a sub stack, but just as importantly, or if not 0:01:56.413 --> 0:02:00.413 more so, they both have careers and histories that have 0:02:00.573 --> 0:02:10.893 led them to this very event AI with some considerable knowledge. 0:02:11.853 --> 0:02:15.493 Buccolan is a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form 0:02:15.573 --> 0:02:19.413 called bacterial l sate. It'll boost your natural protection against 0:02:19.413 --> 0:02:22.573 bacterial infections in your chest and throat. 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Buccolan can be taken 0:02:49.493 --> 0:02:52.653 throughout the cold season, over winter, or all year round. 0:02:52.893 --> 0:02:55.813 And remember Buckelan is not intended as an alternative to 0:02:55.853 --> 0:02:59.293 influenza vaccination, but may be used along with the flu 0:02:59.373 --> 0:03:03.493 vaccination for added protection. And keep in mind that millions 0:03:03.493 --> 0:03:06.773 of doses have been taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. 0:03:07.133 --> 0:03:10.573 Only available from your firemist. Always read the label and 0:03:10.773 --> 0:03:14.173 users directed, and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer 0:03:14.213 --> 0:03:26.533 Broker auckland Leyton Smith AI it's become more prominent in 0:03:26.613 --> 0:03:28.973 my life of recent times. I mean, there is Ai 0:03:29.133 --> 0:03:31.893 Fabler who we've had on the podcast once or twice, 0:03:32.293 --> 0:03:35.213 and he writes very good stuff, but that doesn't tell 0:03:35.293 --> 0:03:38.493 us much about the whole AI industry. Let me read 0:03:38.573 --> 0:03:41.253 you some headlines. Every one of these is coming in 0:03:41.293 --> 0:03:43.893 the last week. One was just this morning. On both 0:03:43.893 --> 0:03:47.293 sides of the Tasman we are too fearful of AI. 0:03:47.613 --> 0:03:51.533 Doug Bergham warns, whoever wins the AI race controls the world. 0:03:51.613 --> 0:03:55.053 Who's Doug Bergham? He is the Interior Secretary responsible for 0:03:55.093 --> 0:03:58.293 managing the well more than five hundred and seven million 0:03:58.373 --> 0:04:01.493 acres of federally owned land in the US, and he 0:04:01.573 --> 0:04:04.693 is haunted by a fear that seems at first glance 0:04:04.733 --> 0:04:07.893 outside his mandate. He worries the free world will lose 0:04:07.933 --> 0:04:11.133 dominant in the field of artificial intelligence, and with that 0:04:11.773 --> 0:04:13.973 the future. Then there's a cap on it. So does 0:04:14.013 --> 0:04:17.733 the president forget AI. Students are already cheating their way 0:04:17.773 --> 0:04:21.413 through exams and last for the moment is more, but 0:04:21.493 --> 0:04:23.693 last for the moment is the least important one. Chris 0:04:23.773 --> 0:04:28.933 Luxen defends National's use of AI. So it's getting more 0:04:29.133 --> 0:04:33.813 and more publicity and it's affecting more and more lives. 0:04:34.613 --> 0:04:38.573 Nigel Horrack was the news editor at Newstalks NB well 0:04:38.613 --> 0:04:42.293 when it became Newstalks EDB in that period, and he is, 0:04:42.453 --> 0:04:47.013 according to people who have informed me or reinformed me, 0:04:47.653 --> 0:04:50.893 the best news editor that we ever had. What more 0:04:50.933 --> 0:04:53.933 can I say? He also is a pioneer, or was 0:04:53.973 --> 0:04:57.533 a pioneer in internet matters. But he's also done something 0:04:57.693 --> 0:05:00.613 very recently. He did a course at Oxford University, well 0:05:00.653 --> 0:05:03.093 not Oxford, it was online, but it was a course 0:05:03.613 --> 0:05:08.533 on AI. And the important thing is my understanding, is 0:05:08.573 --> 0:05:12.133 that he almost threw in the towel part way through 0:05:12.173 --> 0:05:15.613 because it was so so hard he didn't and he 0:05:15.693 --> 0:05:19.373 ended up getting ninety percent, which at Oxford I'd have 0:05:19.453 --> 0:05:23.133 to say is ginormous. Nigel, Welcome to the Late and 0:05:23.173 --> 0:05:24.813 Smith podcast. It's great to have you here. 0:05:25.653 --> 0:05:27.853 Thank you for having me here, Leason, and do good 0:05:27.893 --> 0:05:28.613 catch up again. 0:05:28.853 --> 0:05:33.773 Indeed, now along with you is somebody you're in well, 0:05:33.893 --> 0:05:36.693 i'll say, in business with. His name is Justin Matthews. 0:05:36.893 --> 0:05:40.093 He is a senior lecturer in Digital Media at aut 0:05:41.093 --> 0:05:44.453 He has worked in media and film, in TV design, 0:05:44.613 --> 0:05:49.173 technology and the web and at one stage Justin ran 0:05:49.253 --> 0:05:52.733 the New Zealand Herald website from the tech point of view, 0:05:53.013 --> 0:05:57.773 and he is co substack writer along with Nigel for 0:05:57.973 --> 0:06:02.133 a site called Creative Machinists. Justin, let me start with you. 0:06:02.573 --> 0:06:05.653 What is creative machinists actually mean? 0:06:07.333 --> 0:06:12.053 Oh, that's a good one. It's actually marqinez which I 0:06:12.093 --> 0:06:14.333 had to learn as well because of Latin, but it 0:06:14.413 --> 0:06:18.293 basically means machine and it was a fancier way of 0:06:18.373 --> 0:06:21.773 going creative machines basically kind of giving it that little 0:06:21.813 --> 0:06:23.293 bit of edge or difference. 0:06:24.133 --> 0:06:26.253 Nigel, who started it? You or Heat? 0:06:26.733 --> 0:06:27.853 We started it together? 0:06:27.933 --> 0:06:31.973 Really, we both had an interest in AI, and we 0:06:32.013 --> 0:06:37.173 also have both done a course on social media at aut. 0:06:38.373 --> 0:06:40.573 SO and we both actually worked at. 0:06:40.493 --> 0:06:44.253 The Herald Online in that period, so we've known each 0:06:44.253 --> 0:06:46.773 other full long time and she had an interest in technology. 0:06:47.213 --> 0:06:50.773 But there's a lot of people talking lateness, you know, 0:06:50.893 --> 0:06:53.413 about AI, but a lot of them are just talking 0:06:53.453 --> 0:06:57.173 about the tools and getting very excited about the next 0:06:57.253 --> 0:07:01.373 variation of whatever tool is coming through. And I suppose 0:07:01.493 --> 0:07:06.693 because of my journalistic background, I'm especially interested, as you are, 0:07:06.973 --> 0:07:10.813 in the wider picture, how is this actually affecting life 0:07:10.893 --> 0:07:12.413 or how could it affect life? 0:07:12.653 --> 0:07:14.213 And what are the implications? 0:07:14.253 --> 0:07:19.653 What are the ethical implications we seem to I've been 0:07:19.733 --> 0:07:25.773 through the early days of technology startups and the Internet 0:07:25.813 --> 0:07:28.893 from before it was even there was even a web browser, 0:07:29.333 --> 0:07:31.653 and what I saw over that time was exactly the 0:07:31.693 --> 0:07:35.293 same thing. For a while, Random magazine very successful Good 0:07:35.373 --> 0:07:40.253 net Guide, which discussed all these issues as well as 0:07:40.293 --> 0:07:43.933 helping you online. Whereas a lot of people in the 0:07:44.053 --> 0:07:47.773 kind of tech world simply get excited about the next 0:07:47.813 --> 0:07:51.333 big thing without actually taking a breath and saying is 0:07:51.373 --> 0:07:55.533 this good for humanity? Is this something that we should 0:07:55.613 --> 0:07:56.533 actually be pushing? 0:07:57.053 --> 0:07:58.813 So there is a good and a bad side to 0:07:59.413 --> 0:08:02.773 AI as far as I'm concerned, would you agree. 0:08:02.773 --> 0:08:05.813 Definitely, there are certainly some good things. I think the 0:08:05.853 --> 0:08:11.093 most exciting thing is that in terms of health development, 0:08:11.613 --> 0:08:16.293 AI is definitely emerging as a very practical tool in 0:08:16.333 --> 0:08:20.093 cancer intervention and treatment in a variety of ways. And 0:08:20.133 --> 0:08:23.653 in fact, some health people are some of the health 0:08:23.653 --> 0:08:26.973 people who are working in the UK and USA say 0:08:27.013 --> 0:08:33.733 that AI is enabling them to do a faster approach 0:08:33.853 --> 0:08:37.093 to working out how to cure some diseases and cancer, 0:08:37.653 --> 0:08:40.453 and it looks as though it will have a critical 0:08:40.493 --> 0:08:45.933 impact on medicine and the development of treatment. So AI 0:08:46.093 --> 0:08:50.413 tools are definitely helping develop solutions for curing disease. But 0:08:50.493 --> 0:08:55.333 there are other aspects of AI that perhaps need debate 0:08:56.333 --> 0:08:58.333 and possibly regulation. 0:08:58.493 --> 0:09:01.933 When you talk about health being the most important at 0:09:01.933 --> 0:09:07.813 this point of view. From this position, then there is 0:09:07.853 --> 0:09:11.693 the excus ample, which is only very recent, of AI 0:09:11.893 --> 0:09:13.533 telling someone to go kill themselves. 0:09:13.893 --> 0:09:18.773 Yes, actually that was very concerning. That was involving a 0:09:18.813 --> 0:09:23.933 company called character dot AI. Basically there was an issue 0:09:23.933 --> 0:09:28.653 where the person was talking to this AI and they 0:09:28.653 --> 0:09:32.453 were getting more and more lost into their nature of 0:09:32.453 --> 0:09:39.733 their reality, and they ended up deciding to the AI 0:09:39.973 --> 0:09:43.133 basically ended up convincing them that their world wasn't real, 0:09:43.453 --> 0:09:47.373 and so the person chose to follow the AI into 0:09:47.453 --> 0:09:49.973 the next life or something and kill themselves. 0:09:50.453 --> 0:09:53.693 Charming, and I can imagine there are people who under 0:09:53.693 --> 0:09:57.373 those circumstances, certainly some circumstances would follow through on that. 0:09:58.853 --> 0:09:59.093 Well. 0:09:59.133 --> 0:10:03.973 One of the big issues that I was watching is 0:10:04.013 --> 0:10:08.733 today the Meet the Press program that runs on America 0:10:08.773 --> 0:10:11.933 on Sundays, and the whole program is devoted to what 0:10:12.053 --> 0:10:14.053 they consider to be one of the big issues in 0:10:14.093 --> 0:10:20.213 America at the moment, which is loneliness and advanced robotics 0:10:20.253 --> 0:10:25.733 and emotional AI is actually reshaping human connections so that 0:10:26.333 --> 0:10:29.973 there are companies, especially one in China, that are producing 0:10:30.653 --> 0:10:37.333 robotic companions. And one of the big moves towards developments 0:10:37.333 --> 0:10:41.413 of AI is what have been called AI assistance that 0:10:41.493 --> 0:10:45.773 will be after guide us through life. We have a 0:10:45.813 --> 0:10:47.493 little bit of that at the moment where we can 0:10:47.533 --> 0:10:51.053 ask sire on our Apple phones or Alexa if you 0:10:51.133 --> 0:10:54.853 have one of those Amazon devices. But where this is 0:10:54.933 --> 0:11:02.373 going is that people who need companionship are abandoning the 0:11:02.453 --> 0:11:06.133 traditional dating apps, for example, and there are now very 0:11:06.133 --> 0:11:10.733 popular dating apps in America which are AIS, so in fact, 0:11:10.773 --> 0:11:15.813 you're not meeting real people, you are having a supposed relationship. 0:11:16.133 --> 0:11:19.813 Now where that is going is that means that these 0:11:20.293 --> 0:11:26.133 AI robotic robotics are actually suggesting to you what you 0:11:26.173 --> 0:11:27.493 should be doing with your life. 0:11:28.413 --> 0:11:32.733 There's an extension to that mention you made of robots 0:11:32.813 --> 0:11:34.613 and things. I want to leave that for the moment, 0:11:34.653 --> 0:11:36.573 but for heaven's sake, don't forget. To remind me. If 0:11:36.613 --> 0:11:39.453 I forget, Let's just work our way through some of 0:11:39.493 --> 0:11:42.773 the some of the aspects of it, because that'll be 0:11:42.853 --> 0:11:46.293 spin off from pretty much all of them. For instance, 0:11:46.613 --> 0:11:52.093 AI is mimicking leading music artists and unofficial songs featuring them, 0:11:52.373 --> 0:11:55.773 and they're being released on platforms like Spotify. How are 0:11:55.773 --> 0:11:56.573 they getting away with that? 0:11:56.973 --> 0:12:00.613 Well, the way they're doing that latent is because there 0:12:00.733 --> 0:12:04.413 is all this undisputed law at the moment about what's 0:12:04.493 --> 0:12:07.853 legal and what's not, and that huge grade space I 0:12:07.893 --> 0:12:11.853 suppose until it's defined, is going to allow the AI 0:12:11.973 --> 0:12:16.333 companies and people building these sort of tools to create opportunities. 0:12:16.573 --> 0:12:18.533 And then you've got people out there wanting to take 0:12:18.613 --> 0:12:22.533 advantage of it. We don't know what's law yet for 0:12:22.613 --> 0:12:25.853 what is considered to be true copyright around the AI stuff. 0:12:26.053 --> 0:12:29.373 And so you have these people using these tools. Some 0:12:30.293 --> 0:12:33.493 of these are using them to create interesting stuff. They're 0:12:33.493 --> 0:12:36.493 being very creative. Some of them are fans and they 0:12:36.533 --> 0:12:41.093 want to create effectively music based off there the artists 0:12:41.133 --> 0:12:43.213 that they're fans of, and then some of them are 0:12:43.213 --> 0:12:46.733 just doing it actually quite maliciously to create opportunities to 0:12:48.253 --> 0:12:52.013 further their own gain. There was that recent case, for instance, 0:12:52.053 --> 0:12:57.573 where this guy basically created this entire industry of fake 0:12:57.693 --> 0:13:00.813 music from AI and also having AI bots listen to 0:13:00.853 --> 0:13:04.573 it so that he could pack the streaming system of Spotify, 0:13:05.213 --> 0:13:09.053 and it was basically able to take qus millions of 0:13:09.093 --> 0:13:12.413 dollars of streaming fees. So, yeah, this is a really 0:13:12.453 --> 0:13:14.893 interesting space where you've got this creative This is one 0:13:14.893 --> 0:13:16.733 of the things we do with the creative mckinnest things. 0:13:16.733 --> 0:13:20.253 We keep looking at all the material about where does 0:13:20.653 --> 0:13:25.293 AI begin and human interactions start, and what are we 0:13:25.333 --> 0:13:27.893 going to do as far as understand where those boundaries 0:13:27.933 --> 0:13:30.933 should exist, because at the moment, no one seems to 0:13:30.933 --> 0:13:33.053 know exactly where we should be drawing the line. 0:13:33.773 --> 0:13:36.013 Let me ask a question that associated with that that 0:13:36.693 --> 0:13:40.253 occurred to me while you were mentioning it. Let's take 0:13:41.973 --> 0:13:45.813 a singer, a singer that I'm going to mention, doctor 0:13:45.893 --> 0:13:49.773 John because for two reasons. One is he's right up 0:13:49.813 --> 0:13:52.333 there at the top with me and well with some 0:13:52.413 --> 0:13:56.253 of his music. And secondly, he's now departed. He's dead. 0:13:56.573 --> 0:14:00.893 Now I get the idea that somebody could reinvent him 0:14:01.093 --> 0:14:05.093 through AI write new songs and have him sing them, 0:14:05.893 --> 0:14:09.293 or would somebody else? How would all how would they 0:14:09.373 --> 0:14:13.773 do that getting the voice to sound the same. And secondly, 0:14:14.413 --> 0:14:17.253 the most important question is would I want to listen 0:14:17.693 --> 0:14:18.933 knowing that it's nothing. 0:14:19.733 --> 0:14:23.653 There are some Michael Jackson songs out there which do 0:14:23.973 --> 0:14:27.213 sound a little bit like Michael Jackson, because if you 0:14:27.613 --> 0:14:30.453 put Michael Jackson into all the tools, you can then 0:14:31.013 --> 0:14:33.973 end up doing stuff with Michael Jackson. 0:14:34.173 --> 0:14:35.253 I think what's interesting. 0:14:35.253 --> 0:14:38.813 I've talked a lot about this because in some years 0:14:38.813 --> 0:14:40.933 ago there's been a little bit of this sort of 0:14:43.013 --> 0:14:45.373 stuff going on. I don't know if you remember late 0:14:45.453 --> 0:14:52.333 and there was a famous Natalie Cole album called Duets 0:14:52.053 --> 0:14:55.733 with Natkin Cole, and the two of them sang the 0:14:55.813 --> 0:14:58.373 songs together. But of course net Can Cole a departed 0:14:58.693 --> 0:15:01.413 now that is not quite the same as doing it. 0:15:01.493 --> 0:15:04.453 But I'm just saying that there over time there has 0:15:04.533 --> 0:15:07.973 been a bit of trickery going on. Record companies use 0:15:08.013 --> 0:15:12.253 a tool which is called auto tune, where sometimes they 0:15:12.293 --> 0:15:16.693 can change make the voice better of the artist. This 0:15:16.893 --> 0:15:21.573 is a whole different copyright game, though, where the tools 0:15:21.613 --> 0:15:24.293 are out there where you can feed all the Michael 0:15:24.373 --> 0:15:28.373 Jackson songs and then get Michael Jackson to create. 0:15:28.133 --> 0:15:31.213 A new song. And that is. 0:15:33.293 --> 0:15:35.973 The problem is that if you recall the early days 0:15:35.973 --> 0:15:39.453 of the Internet, in which you were on board very early, 0:15:40.213 --> 0:15:45.413 a regulation always takes a long time. Lawmakers take forever 0:15:45.693 --> 0:15:50.253 to actually do something about things, so that a lot 0:15:50.293 --> 0:15:53.693 of stuff happened on the Internet before lawmakers woke up. 0:15:53.733 --> 0:15:56.413 And that's why we've now got quite a lot of 0:15:56.413 --> 0:16:01.893 issues with social media because the lawmakers and regulators didn't 0:16:01.893 --> 0:16:05.173 actually address it. And that is what's going on here. 0:16:05.733 --> 0:16:09.613 As Justin says, the issues about copywriter in a very 0:16:09.613 --> 0:16:10.533 gray area. 0:16:10.613 --> 0:16:13.253 But just going back to my question at the end, 0:16:13.413 --> 0:16:15.853 would I want to listen to it knowing that it 0:16:15.973 --> 0:16:17.253 wasn't Doctor John. 0:16:18.293 --> 0:16:20.733 Now, well, I'm a great fan of Doctor John too, 0:16:21.013 --> 0:16:24.733 and I certainly don't particularly want to listen to doctor 0:16:24.853 --> 0:16:28.453 John singing songs that he didn't do. 0:16:29.013 --> 0:16:31.133 I mean, I think that the answer to that is, 0:16:31.213 --> 0:16:34.373 it does appear people are prepared to listen to songs 0:16:34.613 --> 0:16:38.533 that are AI. The latest sort of statistics that are 0:16:38.533 --> 0:16:42.853 coming out or people exploring this are saying that audiences 0:16:42.933 --> 0:16:45.853 don't seem to necessarily have a big issue with the 0:16:45.893 --> 0:16:49.213 idea at this stage that some of this stuff might 0:16:49.253 --> 0:16:53.253 be AI. And this is another concern, I suppose, or 0:16:53.293 --> 0:16:57.533 another challenge for us is a lot of artists, obviously, 0:16:58.613 --> 0:17:00.373 and so a lot of artists are resistant to this. 0:17:00.373 --> 0:17:04.453 There's a case of them writing open letters about wanting 0:17:04.493 --> 0:17:06.133 to kind of stop some of this stuff, but it 0:17:06.133 --> 0:17:09.533 doesn't appear audiences I can convinced that it isn't something 0:17:09.573 --> 0:17:11.973 that they're prepared to be part of. And so your 0:17:12.053 --> 0:17:15.253 questions specifically, I think the nature of it is that 0:17:15.413 --> 0:17:19.093 audiences and certain of percentages of audiences are prepared to 0:17:19.173 --> 0:17:23.853 listen to new music. The nature of that is that 0:17:24.333 --> 0:17:26.893 we think that audiences are going to be into it. 0:17:27.853 --> 0:17:31.773 Okay, there's a connection with that with something else that'll 0:17:31.813 --> 0:17:36.213 come up eventually. Let's get back to some other aspects 0:17:36.213 --> 0:17:39.213 of it. We know that when it comes to the 0:17:39.253 --> 0:17:42.853 military there are going to be some very big questions 0:17:42.973 --> 0:17:46.573 asked now I mentioned maybe I didn't mention this one. 0:17:46.653 --> 0:17:51.413 Another headline, CIA says winning tech war with China top priority, 0:17:51.573 --> 0:17:58.133 citing existential threat to the US is basic AI likely 0:17:58.173 --> 0:18:00.693 to become an existential threat to humankind. 0:18:01.253 --> 0:18:03.453 I think that there's a lot of talk about the 0:18:03.453 --> 0:18:07.053 doom of that, and look, the reality is that there 0:18:07.133 --> 0:18:11.613 is a percentage of truth to the idea that AI 0:18:11.733 --> 0:18:14.413 might end up destroying us, and a lot of people 0:18:14.453 --> 0:18:17.493 in the field of artificial intelligence development, the people that 0:18:17.533 --> 0:18:22.213 are working at Google, Open Ai, Anthropic, these are sort 0:18:22.213 --> 0:18:26.373 of these leading companies exploring these AI tools. They do 0:18:26.693 --> 0:18:30.813 believe that there is a percentage of truth to the 0:18:30.853 --> 0:18:34.893 idea that AI might destroy us. But it's again, like 0:18:34.933 --> 0:18:38.093 anything with probabilities, it's a bit of an unknown. There 0:18:38.173 --> 0:18:40.613 is a lot of safety that goes on around the 0:18:40.733 --> 0:18:46.653 use of constructing these AI technologies, and there probably is 0:18:46.773 --> 0:18:49.213 more of a case of it being beneficial to humankind 0:18:49.333 --> 0:18:50.733 rather than destroying us. 0:18:51.333 --> 0:18:55.413 I think the warfare though Laton, is definitely one that 0:18:55.533 --> 0:18:59.333 does raise some serious questions. I mean, fully yearsigned from 0:18:59.333 --> 0:19:04.533 that movie The Terminator about killer robots, we now have 0:19:04.733 --> 0:19:11.493 autonomous weapons warfare, reshaping global military strategy and also determining 0:19:11.493 --> 0:19:15.773 who wins and loses. We've got AI, we've got drones, 0:19:16.253 --> 0:19:19.813 We've got autonomous weapons being deployed in the real life 0:19:20.373 --> 0:19:24.213 conflicts at the moment of Gaza and Ukraine. The Israeli 0:19:24.253 --> 0:19:30.293 Defense Minister Director General says that over the next decade, 0:19:30.493 --> 0:19:33.853 AI robots in land and sea will be the ones 0:19:33.893 --> 0:19:38.613 who are actually doing modern warfare. He says that it's 0:19:38.653 --> 0:19:42.333 a complete game changer and the future battlefield will be 0:19:43.093 --> 0:19:46.453 very much unmanned systems fighting together. 0:19:48.413 --> 0:19:54.173 I read somewhere that there is likely to be a 0:19:54.213 --> 0:19:59.733 combination for some time of shall we say, AI and 0:19:59.853 --> 0:20:03.453 real life on the battlefield, battalions made up of a mix. 0:20:04.613 --> 0:20:07.853 Yeah, there's pretty much the play that will occur for 0:20:07.893 --> 0:20:12.613 at least next decade. The systems are not powerful enough 0:20:12.613 --> 0:20:16.133 to be completely autonomous, like Nigel mentioned the Terminator, We 0:20:16.253 --> 0:20:20.253 certainly haven't got that level of technology. But the integration 0:20:20.613 --> 0:20:25.613 of artificial intelligence machines, combat machines and humans is definitely 0:20:25.933 --> 0:20:29.013 the future. I mean, the militaries currently in the US 0:20:30.493 --> 0:20:35.213 have been working with these autonomous fighter jets that effectively 0:20:36.413 --> 0:20:42.213 they basically fly with a main fighter jet, like a 0:20:42.293 --> 0:20:45.533 leading fighter jet, and they will basically just be following 0:20:45.533 --> 0:20:48.333 it and then going ahead and sort of scouting out 0:20:48.373 --> 0:20:51.213 locations and fighting with them. So I think these kind 0:20:51.293 --> 0:20:56.453 of combined swarms of AI with humans is definitely the 0:20:56.653 --> 0:20:58.333 future that is currently in play. 0:20:58.693 --> 0:21:01.493 Do you remember those a few years ago? There were 0:21:01.573 --> 0:21:09.533 news items with and in movies with flock of bird 0:21:09.773 --> 0:21:12.493 like creatures, but they weren't they were would we call 0:21:12.573 --> 0:21:15.733 them AI? But let's let's do so anyway, they were 0:21:15.813 --> 0:21:19.413 chasing people through the through the jungle and killing them. 0:21:21.053 --> 0:21:23.453 What's happened? What's happened to that? Do you know any 0:21:23.493 --> 0:21:26.813 idea because there's been nothing mentioned of it in the 0:21:26.893 --> 0:21:28.853 last well two three years. 0:21:30.453 --> 0:21:32.773 I'm not sure which one you're specifically talking to, but 0:21:33.053 --> 0:21:35.253 it does sound like the drone stuff, I mean, the 0:21:35.853 --> 0:21:37.813 the This is one of the this is one of 0:21:37.813 --> 0:21:42.133 the big concerns about the automated artificial intelligence military stuff, 0:21:42.533 --> 0:21:47.533 and that is these these swarms of AI drones that 0:21:47.813 --> 0:21:50.253 kind of do what you were just saying. They effectively 0:21:50.373 --> 0:21:55.733 create a swarm of machines that I that you cannot escape, 0:21:55.773 --> 0:21:58.693 that they kind of can swarm around you, they can 0:21:58.733 --> 0:22:02.853 track you down, and it doesn't matter how agile you are, 0:22:02.853 --> 0:22:04.853 and as you can point out, if you're running through 0:22:04.853 --> 0:22:08.053 a forest, you'd basically still be able to be wiped out. 0:22:08.373 --> 0:22:11.813 And that's scary because that kind of sort of swarming 0:22:11.853 --> 0:22:16.493 technology is a sort of new category of danger when 0:22:16.493 --> 0:22:18.213 it comes to military conflict. 0:22:18.893 --> 0:22:22.293 So there's another scary whichever way you look at it, 0:22:22.333 --> 0:22:28.133 and that is a suggestion that AI could replace politicians. 0:22:28.573 --> 0:22:33.053 Well, that is definitely there are some people who are 0:22:33.813 --> 0:22:38.613 suggesting that there are a number of ways that AI 0:22:38.733 --> 0:22:46.813 could certainly get involved in politics. There's a belief that politicians, 0:22:46.853 --> 0:22:53.813 for example, could use chat bots which they could discuss 0:22:53.933 --> 0:23:00.373 with their constituents resolve disagreements, and also AI could be 0:23:00.453 --> 0:23:06.413 used to write legislation. The appeal of replacing flesh and 0:23:06.453 --> 0:23:12.213 blood politicians with chatbots is definitely being seriously advocated. One 0:23:12.533 --> 0:23:16.213 more radical idea, which some are suggesting, is actually eliminating 0:23:16.293 --> 0:23:21.093 humans whatsoever from politics. And we know that some politicians 0:23:21.213 --> 0:23:25.133 are not terribly bright or doing great things. If AI 0:23:25.333 --> 0:23:29.293 advances to the point where it can reliably perhaps make 0:23:29.533 --> 0:23:33.493 better decisions than humans, then there could be an area 0:23:33.613 --> 0:23:38.533 that it certainly could be explored. According to some enthusiasts. 0:23:38.933 --> 0:23:43.213 They're calling it the algrocracy. I think it's pronounced, which 0:23:43.253 --> 0:23:45.493 is basically algorithms running government. 0:23:47.373 --> 0:23:50.933 I've done about you, guys, but I have no time 0:23:51.013 --> 0:23:55.893 for tolerating that at all, none whatsoever. But it's frightening 0:23:55.933 --> 0:23:59.653 to think that it somehow it could happen, and maybe 0:23:59.693 --> 0:24:02.533 you'd like to trace a possibility trail for it. 0:24:03.733 --> 0:24:07.773 There was a candidate that stood in Sussex in the 0:24:08.173 --> 0:24:13.693 UK elections and he actually actually he created an AI 0:24:13.813 --> 0:24:17.293 chatbot and so it was called AI Steve who was 0:24:17.333 --> 0:24:22.573 actually standing. His argument was that it meant that politicians. 0:24:23.453 --> 0:24:26.173 He had created a politician who was always around to 0:24:26.213 --> 0:24:29.853 talk to constituents and who could take their views into 0:24:29.933 --> 0:24:36.733 consideration and do better research to create better policies. He 0:24:36.853 --> 0:24:39.373 didn't do very well in the elections, so there's probably 0:24:39.373 --> 0:24:40.893 the answer to your fears later. 0:24:41.973 --> 0:24:44.493 I think the way to track that, though, is I 0:24:44.533 --> 0:24:48.773 think you're correct. It is very concerning the idea of 0:24:49.333 --> 0:24:55.253 allowing ourselves to be subject to algorithms as a way 0:24:55.253 --> 0:24:59.013 of governance. We already have seen quite frankly, the danger, 0:24:59.213 --> 0:25:03.213 or I just think the disrupt the destructiveness that algorithms 0:25:03.213 --> 0:25:06.813 have created around social media experiences, and the nature of 0:25:06.853 --> 0:25:10.493 how that is often leads into problems around the way 0:25:10.533 --> 0:25:16.133 the algorithm presents content information, misinformation, disinformation. It isn't a 0:25:16.133 --> 0:25:20.013 big stretch to think that. The thing that people don't 0:25:20.053 --> 0:25:24.213 quite understand, I think is that we are already engaged 0:25:24.373 --> 0:25:28.093 in a lot of stuff that's to do with artificial intelligence. 0:25:28.133 --> 0:25:31.053 The social media algorithms that we sort of a lot 0:25:31.053 --> 0:25:34.733 of people engage with every day are using artificial intelligence. 0:25:34.733 --> 0:25:37.133 They're not They're not just sort of what you would 0:25:37.133 --> 0:25:41.013 call these simplistic algorithms from previous times. They are using 0:25:41.093 --> 0:25:44.053 artificial intelligence in the way they're operating. So we already 0:25:44.053 --> 0:25:47.573 see that it's not necessarily very great there extending that 0:25:47.693 --> 0:25:51.773 into arms of government. I'm with you, it's extremely concerning 0:25:51.813 --> 0:25:55.013 and something I also would be very adamant to push against. 0:25:55.573 --> 0:25:55.813 You know. 0:25:55.853 --> 0:25:59.653 It's like it's a little like some medical matters that 0:25:59.733 --> 0:26:05.853