1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,840 Speaker 1: Time for catch up with one of the best military 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: minds going. It's officially day eight hundred and ninety five 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: of the Ukraine War. Just this week Zelenski, of course, 4 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: has got the first of the F sixteens. Meantime, Israel 5 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: in the US on hire alert for some sort of 6 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: retaliation from Iran. Mcryan's thirty five year Australian Army veterans 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: turned strategist and all three's got a new book out 8 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: by the Way, The War for Ukraine Strategy and Adaptation 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Under Fire. It's out next week. Mcran's with us out 10 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: of Australia. 11 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: Good morning, it's good to be with you. 12 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Let's start with Ukraine. If sixteen's they've arrived, do you 13 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: think they'll make a difference. 14 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 2: They'll make a small difference, but they're not going to 15 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: win the war for Ukraine. They are a technological step 16 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: up from its current fleet of former Soviet aircraft, but 17 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: they're in very small quantities at the moment and will 18 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: take some time to build up to ninety aircraft they've. 19 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: Been promised, and of course they're lacking pilots. 20 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: That's the key determinant, and how quickly they can be 21 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: deployed the planes will probably arrive quicker than the number 22 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: of pilots they got, And pilots are a problem because 23 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: they've got combat missions to fly, they've got English to learn, 24 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: and it takes a while to train them on the 25 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 2: F sixteen, all of which slows things down. 26 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: So I've been reading your quote in Quota the other day. 27 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: Russia's more dangerous now in your view? What's changed? If 28 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: you want to put it this way? Are they a 29 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: better side now? 30 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: They're certainly not the better side. They're the more brutal side. 31 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 2: But they have learned over the last two and a 32 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: half years from their battlefield experiences. The Russian army that 33 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: exists to now exists now did not exist two and 34 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: a half years ago, so they've improved their ability to fight. 35 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 2: But more importantly, the Russian nation has improved its mobilization 36 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: and industrial capacity to fight this war over the long term. 37 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: So the capacity you talk of are the suggestion being 38 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: they can simply grind this out. They will forever be 39 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: able to make more stuff to explode than the Ukrainians? 40 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: Is that fair? 41 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: They will certainly be able to do it for a while. 42 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: But as a wise person once said, no tree grows 43 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: to the sky. No country can fight and take this 44 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: many casualties forever. So even the Russians have a limit, 45 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 2: and the whole aim of NATO's strategy needs to be 46 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 2: to ensure we find that limit and beat them. 47 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: And what's your assessment of NATO's strategy and how it's 48 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: changed in the last year or two. 49 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think they've improved over the last two and 50 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 2: a half years. Certainly there's great unity in NATO. They're 51 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: doing a lot in the provision of equipment, minisitions and 52 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: training and intelligence the Ukraine. But the next step absolutely 53 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 2: has to be embracing the defeat of the Russian military 54 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: in Ukraine. At the moment, it's defending Ukraine, so there's 55 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 2: elite to be had there and with that must come 56 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: the resources to throw the Russians out of Ukraine. 57 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: And how does that happen, especially if the Republicans win 58 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: in October. 59 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's going to be pretty hard. But NATO countries 60 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: in Europe are stepping up their capacity to build things, 61 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: built munitions and to support Ukraine. They have done over 62 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: the last two and a half years. There's a couple 63 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: of laggards there, but most have at least hit the 64 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: two percent of GDP and some are exceeding that. So 65 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: if the Republicans do get elected, and that's by no 66 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 2: means assured, it will be much more difficult for Ukraine. 67 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, Trump may find, 68 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: if he is elected president, that it's in his interest 69 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 2: to help Ukraine, not into them. We shouldn't discount that possibility. 70 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: Has the result changed in the Ukraine from the people 71 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: that is. 72 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I mean there's a deep 73 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: fatigue and weariness among Ukrainian people. I mean people talk 74 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: about fatigue with the war. In Western countries, we have 75 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: absolutely nothing to be fatigued about. But the Ukrainians do. 76 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: But they understand that as and as hard as it 77 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: is to fight this war, being occupied by Russia would 78 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: be arskey worse. All the evidence is there from two 79 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: and a half years of Russian occupation of Ukrainian territory. 80 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: All right, So I ring you in a year, where's 81 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: the war rat do you think? 82 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: Ah, you can't predict these things. Unfortunately, my hope would 83 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: be that we've beaten Russia and kicked them out of Ukraine. 84 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: All right, let's move to the Middle East if we can. 85 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 1: How worried, are you that this goes regional? 86 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: Well, in some respects, it already is. You have Israel 87 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: fighting a war on multiple fronts in Gaza, on its 88 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: northern border in the West Bank, and its southern frontiers 89 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: with the Huthis, so it's already surrounded by a ring 90 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: of fire. Iran has already attacked it once directly and 91 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: has been attacking it indirectly for decades. So in many 92 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: respects it's already a regional conflict. But it's the level 93 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: of violence is beneath the threshold that we are able 94 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: to deal with. The danger we face at the moment 95 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: is that Isra Iran, working with Hesbela and others, might 96 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: do something that might see the situation become far more 97 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: combustible and far more difficult for both Israel and countries 98 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: like the United States to deal with. 99 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: And as we talked this morning, Iran has not responded. 100 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: So I suppose three things they could do. One they 101 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: can do nothing. Two they could telegraph what they're going 102 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: to do, like the drones a few months back. Or 103 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: three they can go out all out what's your core. 104 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: I don't think they can say there's nothing to see 105 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: here this time it happened in the capital of Iran 106 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: and was a pretty significant loss of face for the 107 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: Iranians and for Hesbelah to be quite frank so, I 108 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 2: think we will certainly see a response. I think it 109 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: will probably be more significant than what we saw earlier 110 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: this year, but whether they'll be more successful this time 111 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: remains to be seen. 112 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: The fact that the Israeli has got three key people 113 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: Lebanon and Iran under protection, what is does that tell 114 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 1: you about the sophistication of what the Israelis are about. 115 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: It tells me they're pretty good at finding people they 116 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: need to deal with. They made it very clear after 117 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: seven October they were going to find and bring to 118 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: justice every person involved in the seven October attacks. We 119 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 2: should know from previous promises of this time from the Israelis, 120 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: particularly after the Muny Olympics, that they deliver on those 121 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: kind of provinces. 122 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: Is there anything from your observation, that anyone anywhere can 123 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: say or do that can affect Netanyahu and what he 124 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: wants to achieve, good or bad. 125 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: It's hard to imagine anyone external to Israel having a 126 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,559 Speaker 2: significant influence on him. I think we've seen that since 127 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: October last years that Netta Noahu will do what's in 128 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: his best interests. Even a majority of Israelis seem to 129 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: think that he's not doing things in the best interests 130 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: of their country. 131 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: All Right, the Pacific, let's deal with that, orcus, What 132 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: do you know of it? What do you think of it? 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: And what should news even do about Pilartoo. 134 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 2: Well, WUCAS is a very important arrangement between Australia, the 135 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: United Kingdom and the United States. Pillar one, as you know, 136 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 2: is the nuclear powered attack submarines. They will be an 137 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: important capability into the future. But Pillot two, I think 138 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 2: has a lot of potential beyond the three countries that 139 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: are currently part of Aucus, the R and D at 140 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: different universities and establishments in the three main countries, but 141 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: potentially in places like Cana, Japan, Korea, or even New Zealand. 142 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: I think could be a very interesting collaboration in the 143 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,239 Speaker 2: years and the decades ahead. 144 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: Do you see us in the sticky position? I mean, 145 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: in other words, if we joined Pillar two, is that 146 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: pro American and anti Chinese? 147 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: Well, you know, at the end of the day, China 148 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: is doing a lot of things that are against all 149 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: our interests in our region and beyond. They are helping 150 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: invade a sovereign, prosperous, democratic country. They've threatened to do 151 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: exactly the same to Taiwan. They are threatening nations in 152 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 2: the region like the Philippines and others constantly. So at 153 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: the end of the day, you know, China has a 154 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: threat to the system that exists in the Western Pacific 155 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: at the moment, and we need to ensure that we 156 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: deter them from doing anything that could tip us into 157 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: some catastrophic war. 158 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: And what about Australia. Are they doing enough? 159 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 2: Well? I think we're doing a lot. You know, the 160 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: National Defense strategy and the defense budget does a lot. 161 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: But is it enough? My sense is probably not. We 162 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: probably need to spend at least another percentage of GDP 163 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: to not only afford these submarines and everything else we 164 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: want to buy, but probably expand the size of the 165 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,599 Speaker 2: Australian Defense Force to cope with all the different contingencies 166 00:08:58,679 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: that it now has to prepare for. 167 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: And in general, how worried about China are you in 168 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: the region. I mean, I asked the question, correct me 169 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, But you said the other day that 170 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: Australia will need to at some point look at a 171 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: national service type operation which strikes me as being sort 172 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: of from another time another. 173 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: Eight well, it's from this time, in this age. There 174 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: are many countries where having a national service scheme is 175 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: entirely unremarkable. Many democracies have had them for decades and 176 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: it's something that's embraced and supported by the citizens. Whether 177 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 2: it's Singapore or Korea or Taiwan, or countries in Scandinavia, 178 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: and even in parts of Europe, this is an uncontroversial theme. 179 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: And it's only in countries of Australia and New Zealand 180 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: America where it's become a political football. National service is 181 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: about taking eighteen year olds and joining them to their 182 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: society by having them serve their community. Doesn't all have 183 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 2: to be military. In fact, it's very small proportion of 184 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 2: them will be military. You can have them drive ambulances, 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: you can have them plant trees, you can have them bushfires. 186 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: That the principal aim of a national service scheme is 187 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: to have eighteen year olds learned that there's more to 188 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: life than them and I'm pretty sure most people in 189 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 2: the community wouldn't see that as a bad thing. 190 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: And you see that happening in the not too distant 191 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: future in a place like Australia, and I'm assuming if 192 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: it happens in Australia could be looked at here. 193 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: Well. I think we need to talk about it very seriously. 194 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 2: Whether it happens or not is a political decision, but 195 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: we would be very foolish as a country to it 196 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: not at least not have a conversation, to have a 197 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 2: debate about the merits of such a system. 198 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: What's your observation of the world. I mean when we 199 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: ask this all the time, don't we Is the world 200 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: a mess? 201 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: Or? 202 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: Historically speaking, it's actually no worse than it's ever been. 203 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: No, I think we are in a bit of a 204 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: different era at the moment. We're seeing alignment of four large, 205 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: increasingly aggressive authoritarian powers China, Iran, Russia and North Korea, 206 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: who have been very open in their stated in common 207 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 2: belief that the days of the Western system that Australia 208 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: and New Zealand have benefited from are coming to an 209 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: end and that they want to offer a different form 210 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 2: of global system to many countries in the world. Now, 211 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: I would propose to you that they're probably not going 212 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: to offer as something that's as prosperous and as liberal 213 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: and as democratic as what we've experienced for our short histories. 214 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: And it's in our interests to push back on those 215 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: who would like to see a more disconnected and a 216 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: darker world. 217 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: All right, Always good to catch up with you, M Gowell, Mcryan. 218 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: The book by the Way, The War for Ukraine's Strategy 219 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: and Adaptation under Fire that's out next week. A couple 220 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: of pieces of reading I did for it. What Australia 221 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: can learn from Ukraine's long range strike weapons. He's arguing 222 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: Australia needs to make more sort of low brow stuff 223 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: instead of buying this high end stuff all the time. 224 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: Now the one Russia is more dangerous now than when 225 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: it first invaded. So if you're interested in the sort 226 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: of thing, you can look those up and have a 227 00:11:59,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: bit of a reef. 228 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 229 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: Newstalk SETB from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast 230 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio.