WEBVTT - Dr Mark Williams: Devices are ruining your sleep 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks EDB. 0:00:11.121 --> 0:00:11.641 You know. 0:00:14.481 --> 0:00:28.161 Weybody you know need you knows hevy. 0:00:30.041 --> 0:00:32.481 Oh you sir severy time. 0:00:34.281 --> 0:00:36.681 Yes, welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage. 0:00:36.721 --> 0:00:38.801 By the way, if you missed any of Politics Hour, 0:00:38.841 --> 0:00:41.521 we had a chat with Peter Dunn just about Winston 0:00:41.601 --> 0:00:43.521 saying that Chris Laxon should talk to him first before 0:00:43.521 --> 0:00:45.161 he goes and talk to these other world leaders, and 0:00:45.321 --> 0:00:47.801 you can listen to the discussion that unfolded there. And 0:00:47.841 --> 0:00:50.441 also we talked to former local government minister David Carter 0:00:50.521 --> 0:00:53.441 around how much we rely on people's name, recognition and 0:00:53.441 --> 0:00:55.801 celebrity when we choose our mayors and our counselors. You 0:00:55.801 --> 0:00:57.721 can listen to that on News Talk, SEB, dot co, 0:00:57.801 --> 0:01:01.121 dot m Z. Look for the Weekend Collective on iHeartRadio 0:01:01.161 --> 0:01:03.001 as well. That's another way to do it. But right 0:01:03.001 --> 0:01:05.961 now this is it's time for the Health Hub and 0:01:06.481 --> 0:01:10.481 we're gonna have a chat about the effects of technology 0:01:11.081 --> 0:01:13.481 on I mean not just our mental well being on 0:01:13.521 --> 0:01:18.241 the whole, but in particular our sleep because technology. This 0:01:18.281 --> 0:01:20.121 should not be the first time you've heard that that 0:01:20.121 --> 0:01:21.721 if you're checking your phone at all hours of the 0:01:21.801 --> 0:01:23.841 day and night, then it is actually not good for 0:01:23.881 --> 0:01:25.841 your sleep. But do we really know how bad it is? 0:01:26.121 --> 0:01:28.561 And we have a new guest on our show. He 0:01:28.801 --> 0:01:31.561 has a partner with Amazon Kindle and found that kiwis 0:01:31.601 --> 0:01:36.481 are checking for notifications up to fifty times an hour, 0:01:36.641 --> 0:01:40.881 a major contributed a major contributor to eighty six percent 0:01:40.921 --> 0:01:44.441 of us feeling stressed by bedtime. But what can we 0:01:44.481 --> 0:01:46.041 do to manage it? We want your calls on this 0:01:46.081 --> 0:01:48.001 as well, and if you've got any questions for our 0:01:48.041 --> 0:01:53.081 guest as well as to just how well do you 0:01:53.321 --> 0:01:55.841 monitor your device use and are you aware of the 0:01:55.841 --> 0:01:58.401 effect that it's having on you, because if you're addicted 0:01:58.441 --> 0:01:59.441 to it, you might well be away. 0:01:59.441 --> 0:02:01.161 You know, I shouldn't check my phone. I shouldn't check 0:02:01.201 --> 0:02:01.441 my phone. 0:02:01.481 --> 0:02:03.961 I just once, oh, well check this notification before you 0:02:04.041 --> 0:02:07.041 know it will wait for another hour or wake up 0:02:07.081 --> 0:02:07.761 in the middle of the night. 0:02:08.481 --> 0:02:08.921 Anyway. 0:02:09.521 --> 0:02:14.001 Our new guest is neuroscientist Dr Mark Williams, and he's 0:02:14.041 --> 0:02:14.281 with me. 0:02:14.321 --> 0:02:15.401 Now could I marquee gaing? 0:02:16.081 --> 0:02:16.521 Hi? Tim? 0:02:16.561 --> 0:02:17.921 How are you good? Good? 0:02:17.961 --> 0:02:18.121 Hey? 0:02:18.241 --> 0:02:20.881 Just let's tell us a bit about yourself. How long 0:02:20.881 --> 0:02:23.121 you've been involved with neuroscience. 0:02:26.201 --> 0:02:32.601 Do I have to say that, Okay, twenty five plus years. 0:02:32.681 --> 0:02:35.361 Let's say you could have gone twenty plus years and 0:02:35.401 --> 0:02:38.481 saved yourself and us doing an extra calculation, What did 0:02:38.521 --> 0:02:41.041 you How did you end up becoming a neuroscientist? 0:02:42.961 --> 0:02:46.721 Yeah, that's a great question. I actually was doing a 0:02:46.761 --> 0:02:48.641 Bachelor of Science and I was doing a couple of 0:02:48.681 --> 0:02:54.121 different courses and I did an amazing lecture from a 0:02:54.201 --> 0:02:57.801 guy who was talking about neurophysiology, so how our brain 0:02:57.841 --> 0:03:01.721 works and how brain creates this illusion that we perceive, 0:03:01.881 --> 0:03:03.801 and I just fell in love with it. From then on, 0:03:03.881 --> 0:03:06.241 I just just completely I had a bit of an 0:03:06.241 --> 0:03:09.721 existential crisis at the time as a result of it, 0:03:09.801 --> 0:03:12.481 and then just I wanted to learn more and I 0:03:12.521 --> 0:03:15.241 was lucky. I was at the start of the cognitive 0:03:15.281 --> 0:03:18.481 neuroscience revolution and all these new technologies that we can 0:03:18.601 --> 0:03:21.001 use to look at the brain. So it was a 0:03:21.001 --> 0:03:22.961 fascinating time to be involved. 0:03:22.761 --> 0:03:26.801 In crisis of did you say crisis of something confidence 0:03:26.881 --> 0:03:27.601 or something that. 0:03:27.521 --> 0:03:30.881 Was existential crisis I think I had. 0:03:31.721 --> 0:03:33.961 And was that just about what you were studying versus 0:03:34.081 --> 0:03:36.761 what you were suddenly becoming really interested in it? And 0:03:36.801 --> 0:03:38.001 where the hell is it going to take me? And 0:03:38.041 --> 0:03:39.881 what's all about? And am I wasting my time? And 0:03:40.441 --> 0:03:40.841 I don't know. 0:03:41.041 --> 0:03:43.761 No, it was more about the fact that our perception 0:03:44.001 --> 0:03:47.041 isn't real, right, this video that we think we see 0:03:47.441 --> 0:03:50.881 isn't actually what we're perceiving, and we're creating this based 0:03:50.921 --> 0:03:53.921 on our memories and not what's actually out there, and 0:03:53.961 --> 0:03:57.241 that there's actually like no noise in the world and 0:03:57.281 --> 0:04:01.321 there's no Yeah. So that's what really threw me and 0:04:01.401 --> 0:04:04.121 made me go, Wow, what's actually going on here? And 0:04:04.361 --> 0:04:06.841 how can I to the bottom of how our brains 0:04:06.881 --> 0:04:09.961 are actually creating this amazing illusion that we all perceive constantly. 0:04:10.801 --> 0:04:12.881 You were responding there when you just went yeah, because 0:04:12.921 --> 0:04:16.481 my jaw dropped open at your description of the reality. 0:04:16.521 --> 0:04:20.001 So what I'm seeing this? Because this could go quite deep. 0:04:20.561 --> 0:04:23.361 We maybe we'll dig into that, Maybe we'll dig into 0:04:23.361 --> 0:04:26.161 that beyond out at the topic we're going to talk about. 0:04:26.161 --> 0:04:30.921 But tell us about what is from your perspective, How 0:04:30.921 --> 0:04:33.721 would you describe the work you do in neuroscience? What 0:04:33.721 --> 0:04:34.041 do you do? 0:04:35.481 --> 0:04:38.641 Yeah, so I'm a cognitive neuroscientist. There's lots of different 0:04:38.681 --> 0:04:42.001 disciplines in neuroscience. Cognitive neuroscience just means that we're looking 0:04:42.041 --> 0:04:45.441 at alive way humans and how they actually think and 0:04:45.481 --> 0:04:48.641 perceive and do all the amazing things that us humans do. 0:04:48.801 --> 0:04:52.081 So it's very much at the global, the whole body 0:04:52.561 --> 0:04:57.041 or whole brain level, rather than being into the chemicals 0:04:57.121 --> 0:04:59.601 or into the neurotransmitters or all of the all En 0:04:59.641 --> 0:05:02.681 animals and all those things, which are other amazing disciplines 0:05:02.721 --> 0:05:03.601 within neuroscience. 0:05:03.721 --> 0:05:07.281 Okay, so you've done some you've done some work on 0:05:07.401 --> 0:05:09.481 the whole sleep thing and devices. Tell us a bit 0:05:09.761 --> 0:05:12.401 about tell us a bit about the work and what's 0:05:12.441 --> 0:05:14.561 gone into it and what's it revealed. 0:05:15.561 --> 0:05:19.841 Yeah, So I was lucky enough to be at MIT. 0:05:20.041 --> 0:05:21.801 I went to MOTE and worked at MIT in the 0:05:21.921 --> 0:05:25.281 US for a number of years, And I was at 0:05:25.361 --> 0:05:28.041 MOT when the first iPhone came out, which was a 0:05:28.041 --> 0:05:32.161 fascinating place to be given the MIT is where the 0:05:32.161 --> 0:05:37.041 Internet started. There's two offices at MOT where the Internet. 0:05:36.121 --> 0:05:40.601 You guys would have been your own subjects. 0:05:42.321 --> 0:05:44.881 Everybody was fascinated right by the fact that we had 0:05:44.881 --> 0:05:48.161 this new technology. And at the same time, Mark Zuckerberg 0:05:48.241 --> 0:05:52.321 was across the road at Harvard University setting up Facebook. 0:05:52.401 --> 0:05:56.081 So I was a fascinating time to be in that, Yeah, 0:05:56.201 --> 0:05:58.241 right in the middle of what was going on and 0:05:58.281 --> 0:06:01.241 what was changing. And then I came back to Australia 0:06:01.361 --> 0:06:05.561 and I had kids, and that really made me hang on, 0:06:05.761 --> 0:06:08.161 is this actually good for us? And is this actually 0:06:08.201 --> 0:06:13.481 something that's going to push our species forwards or is 0:06:13.481 --> 0:06:16.161 it going to drag us backwards? And so that made 0:06:16.201 --> 0:06:19.841 me really interested in how the devices are impacting us 0:06:19.841 --> 0:06:23.001 and how the devices have been used to manipulate us 0:06:23.041 --> 0:06:26.441 in failing negative ways in a lot of cases. And 0:06:27.001 --> 0:06:31.441 I'm fascinated by technology because I'm a neuroscientist and technology 0:06:31.521 --> 0:06:35.401 is my go to right It's what enabled us to 0:06:35.441 --> 0:06:36.841 look inside brains. 0:06:36.561 --> 0:06:39.041 Which fast It's a tool, isn't it. At the same time, 0:06:40.121 --> 0:06:43.121 it is gosh that I mean, that's a fairly big question, 0:06:43.241 --> 0:06:44.881 isn't it. Because as soon as you said, as you know, 0:06:44.921 --> 0:06:47.681 you're questioning the thing as the technology that we're doing 0:06:47.801 --> 0:06:53.081 is dragging our species forward and backwards? What do you reckon? 0:06:54.681 --> 0:06:56.521 Not quite what we're talking about, But I just had 0:06:56.521 --> 0:06:58.681 to ask you. I mean, you would have concerns about it, obviously, 0:06:58.721 --> 0:06:59.161 wouldn't you. 0:06:59.961 --> 0:07:03.641 Well, since the iPhones come out and since Facebook and 0:07:03.681 --> 0:07:08.641 social media has started, our IQ has dropped, right, Our 0:07:08.641 --> 0:07:11.361 general IQ across population has dropped, and that's the first 0:07:11.361 --> 0:07:16.761 time in our recorded history that's actually happened. So we 0:07:16.841 --> 0:07:18.401 used to have what we call a flint effect, where 0:07:18.401 --> 0:07:21.881 every year our average IQ was getting greater and greater 0:07:21.921 --> 0:07:24.001 because we were getting more educated, and we were doing 0:07:24.361 --> 0:07:28.321 more fascinating things, and we were getting more advanced. But 0:07:28.481 --> 0:07:30.961 in the last ten years that's actually gone in reverse, 0:07:31.041 --> 0:07:35.201 So that really scares me and really worries me. The 0:07:35.241 --> 0:07:37.921 other thing is that we've got this huge increase in 0:07:38.001 --> 0:07:42.401 early onset dementia. That's people around the age of twenty 0:07:42.401 --> 0:07:44.841 five to thirty five who were getting dementia, which we 0:07:44.881 --> 0:07:48.041 haven't seen before, and that's tripled the number of people 0:07:48.081 --> 0:07:51.721 with dementia in the last two years in that young 0:07:51.761 --> 0:07:54.201 age with the twenty five to thirty five and for 0:07:54.241 --> 0:07:56.241 the first time, we've now seen someone under the age 0:07:56.281 --> 0:08:01.601 of twenty who's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's with dementia. So, yeah, 0:08:01.641 --> 0:08:03.961 those are two things that really worry me about how 0:08:04.001 --> 0:08:08.321 we're using these divine and if the way we're using 0:08:08.321 --> 0:08:09.961 them is actually what we want to be doing. 0:08:10.801 --> 0:08:13.961 Is it what you've talked about with the younger. Is 0:08:14.001 --> 0:08:18.401 it because simply devices enable us to access so much 0:08:19.321 --> 0:08:23.201 information in the course of a minute, an hour a day. 0:08:23.801 --> 0:08:26.641 Are we scrambling our brains a bit that we're losing 0:08:26.681 --> 0:08:30.361 the ability to work things out in a logical at 0:08:30.361 --> 0:08:33.681 a pace where we can our brains can understand information 0:08:33.881 --> 0:08:36.601 better as opposed to we're just bombard and we're scrambling 0:08:36.601 --> 0:08:38.121 our brains and by the time we're in our twenties 0:08:38.201 --> 0:08:39.081 or thirties, we're stuffed. 0:08:40.081 --> 0:08:42.561 Yeah, that's a good way to think about it, but 0:08:43.241 --> 0:08:45.801 I think it's actually the opposite that we're not actually 0:08:46.321 --> 0:08:48.961 using our brains, so it's not getting stronger. So we 0:08:49.041 --> 0:08:52.121 know our brains that use it or lose it basic paradigm, 0:08:52.161 --> 0:08:55.161 just like any other muscle. But you've got to exercise 0:08:55.281 --> 0:08:58.561 it to make it actually stronger. But when you're doom scrolling, 0:08:58.761 --> 0:09:01.201 you're not actually exercising your brain because you brain doesn't 0:09:01.201 --> 0:09:05.041 have to do anything. It's just mindlessly looking at pictures 0:09:05.081 --> 0:09:08.481 as they come up, or when you google something. You know, 0:09:08.641 --> 0:09:11.121 when was the last time you went to out for 0:09:11.201 --> 0:09:14.281 dinner or a pub and someone asked a question or 0:09:14.321 --> 0:09:16.601 said something and someone else said, oh no, that's not true, 0:09:16.601 --> 0:09:20.841 it was two years earlier. So and so won another football, 0:09:20.881 --> 0:09:23.161 you know, in this year, and no, no, no, what 0:09:23.201 --> 0:09:25.361 happened the year before? And then you spend the next 0:09:25.361 --> 0:09:28.001 hour and a half actually arguing about when that actually 0:09:28.041 --> 0:09:30.921 happened nowadays instead of doing that, which is really good 0:09:30.961 --> 0:09:33.201 for our brains, and we're actually pulling out all this 0:09:33.321 --> 0:09:36.201 information where we google it, and so we don't actually 0:09:36.201 --> 0:09:38.761 do all that exercise for our brain that we normally 0:09:38.801 --> 0:09:41.161 would have done. So having all this access means that 0:09:41.161 --> 0:09:43.881 we're not actually using our brains in a way that 0:09:43.961 --> 0:09:46.801 actually exercises them, which makes them actually stronger, so that 0:09:46.801 --> 0:09:48.401 we can actually do more things later on. 0:09:49.601 --> 0:09:52.601 BlimE me, it's quite freaking when you think of it 0:09:52.761 --> 0:09:54.521 like that, because I was literally thinking, of course, we 0:09:54.521 --> 0:09:56.961 don't have arguments in Marcusin. Someone just goes, let's google it. 0:09:57.041 --> 0:09:59.961 Let's just ask a hey, chet GPT blah blah blah, 0:10:00.001 --> 0:10:00.761 what's the story are there? 0:10:00.801 --> 0:10:01.081 We go. 0:10:02.601 --> 0:10:05.401 What does it mean for our because we going to 0:10:05.441 --> 0:10:10.921 dig into things around sleep as well. I mean, everything overlaps, 0:10:11.001 --> 0:10:17.601 doesn't it? But how does that? Is the blue light thing? 0:10:17.641 --> 0:10:19.321 I've heard somebody say to me that the blue light 0:10:19.361 --> 0:10:21.721 thinks nonsense, it's just the fact of using your device 0:10:21.761 --> 0:10:25.281 and accessing all this information. How do devices and technology 0:10:25.441 --> 0:10:26.361 impact our sleep? 0:10:27.401 --> 0:10:30.081 Yeah, so there are multiple aspects to it. The blue 0:10:30.161 --> 0:10:32.761 light is one of the aspects to it. So blue 0:10:32.801 --> 0:10:36.201 light is because a lot of people say behind on 0:10:36.241 --> 0:10:38.641 these blue light coming from the sun, so we're always 0:10:38.921 --> 0:10:41.721 subjected to blue light, so that's not really a problem. 0:10:41.801 --> 0:10:44.281 But blue light is really high energy. I won't get 0:10:44.321 --> 0:10:46.601 into all this physics behind it, but it's really high energy, 0:10:46.761 --> 0:10:49.241 so it scatters a lot, which means it doesn't actually 0:10:49.241 --> 0:10:52.401 get into your retina and so therefore it doesn't affect 0:10:52.401 --> 0:10:53.921 you in the normal way. But when you've got a 0:10:53.961 --> 0:10:56.721 screen close to you, it's giving off blue light that 0:10:56.841 --> 0:10:59.521 does go straight into your eyeball and therefore straight into 0:10:59.521 --> 0:11:02.361 your retina. And we've seen an increase in people with 0:11:03.241 --> 0:11:05.761 eye issues and i damage, which is why now over 0:11:05.841 --> 0:11:09.241 in China they've actually banned iPhones from kids under thirteen 0:11:09.481 --> 0:11:12.121 because of the big increase in eye damage that's been 0:11:12.241 --> 0:11:16.001 caused by the phones. So it is causing damage, and 0:11:16.041 --> 0:11:20.841 that high energy actually affects your malatonin levels and melotone 0:11:20.881 --> 0:11:22.681 is really important for us to go into sleep. So 0:11:22.721 --> 0:11:24.641 there's that aspect to it, the blue light which we 0:11:24.681 --> 0:11:26.721 need to get rid of, which you can do on phones. 0:11:26.761 --> 0:11:28.481 You you can turn them off where you can make 0:11:28.521 --> 0:11:31.841 them gray scale, which is great. But then there's also 0:11:32.481 --> 0:11:36.201 the fact that we're constantly being We become stressed when 0:11:36.241 --> 0:11:38.881 we're on devices because of all the stuff that we 0:11:38.921 --> 0:11:41.041 do on the devices. So you know, you have your 0:11:41.041 --> 0:11:42.921 email on the device, and you do your work on 0:11:42.961 --> 0:11:44.921 your devices and all these sorts of things. So as 0:11:44.921 --> 0:11:47.841 soon as we open a laptop or pull out our phones, 0:11:48.121 --> 0:11:52.041 our cortisol levels increase, which is an indication of stress. 0:11:53.201 --> 0:11:55.801 And that happens automatically when any of us increases, and 0:11:55.881 --> 0:11:57.361 of course if you're stressed, it's up to sleep. 0:11:57.481 --> 0:11:59.401 Is that the bigger factor in a way, the fact 0:11:59.401 --> 0:12:02.361 that the information we're getting as opposed to the light 0:12:03.241 --> 0:12:07.001 is because I speaking, I guess sometimes I look at 0:12:07.001 --> 0:12:08.921 the arm I watch a bit of Netflix or something 0:12:09.241 --> 0:12:13.401 for ten minutes, but I'll turn if I'm reading anything, 0:12:13.441 --> 0:12:16.001 I'll turn the light right down. But I have a 0:12:16.001 --> 0:12:18.201 suspicion that I probably shouldn't be reading anything on the 0:12:18.241 --> 0:12:21.001 internet late at night anyway, because it's what you're talking 0:12:21.001 --> 0:12:23.601 about with the cortisol levels and stress and reacting to 0:12:24.001 --> 0:12:25.601 something on Twitter and then being. 0:12:25.441 --> 0:12:30.081 Ah, especially at the moment. I mean, there's just this 0:12:30.241 --> 0:12:35.361 constant feed of yeah stuff which is scaring everybody. But 0:12:35.681 --> 0:12:38.681 we also the algorithms that run in the background, especially 0:12:38.721 --> 0:12:43.241 if you're using social media, they bias our feeds towards 0:12:43.321 --> 0:12:48.961 more dramatic and more violent and more scary stuff because 0:12:49.041 --> 0:12:51.481 we know that we attend to that more because it's 0:12:51.481 --> 0:12:54.001 a warning signal, right, We're worried that it's something that 0:12:54.041 --> 0:12:57.681 we need to actually attend to. So those algorithms are 0:12:57.721 --> 0:13:00.761 also biased towards that information. So we're getting fed information 0:13:00.841 --> 0:13:02.881 that it gets us excited and get us as stressed 0:13:02.881 --> 0:13:06.521 as well, which also impact on our stress levels. 0:13:06.561 --> 0:13:10.121 Because one of the things we I mean, these these 0:13:10.161 --> 0:13:13.081 conversations that we're having, I mean, there is conversation around 0:13:13.161 --> 0:13:16.521 going on in the you know, amongst people about kids 0:13:16.561 --> 0:13:22.121 and phones, and I think most people would think, I 0:13:22.281 --> 0:13:24.201 really need to put off giving my kid a phone. 0:13:24.721 --> 0:13:28.281 But are we in danger of ignoring the effect it 0:13:28.321 --> 0:13:31.521 has on us adults, the grown ups, you know, regardless 0:13:31.521 --> 0:13:33.961 of our age, Because obviously, yes, we should be concerned 0:13:33.961 --> 0:13:37.121 about children, but in focusing on that, we think but 0:13:37.201 --> 0:13:40.521 you know, put down your phone, love and off the bed, 0:13:40.561 --> 0:13:42.681 and then I'm on my phone myself, not thinking about 0:13:42.721 --> 0:13:43.881 the potential of that. 0:13:44.881 --> 0:13:47.481 Yeah, absolutely, I think it's it's something that we all 0:13:47.561 --> 0:13:50.201 need to think about because it is really affecting a 0:13:50.241 --> 0:13:52.961 lot of us in really negative ways, and so we 0:13:53.361 --> 0:13:56.001 need to be aware for ourselves so that we can 0:13:56.041 --> 0:13:58.921 actually use it in a way which is better for 0:13:59.081 --> 0:14:02.041 our brains and so we don't end up getting because Alzheimers, 0:14:02.121 --> 0:14:04.841 even in the older age groups is increasing and has 0:14:04.881 --> 0:14:07.681 been increasing pretty dramatically over the last few years. So 0:14:08.681 --> 0:14:11.321 we want to be doing things that are actually going 0:14:11.361 --> 0:14:13.641 to be good for our brains and good for us 0:14:13.681 --> 0:14:15.441 and good for our stress levels and all those sorts 0:14:15.481 --> 0:14:18.681 of things roman things that we know are negative. Plus 0:14:19.001 --> 0:14:22.241 we want to demonstrate to the younger generation what's a 0:14:22.241 --> 0:14:26.161 good way to live? Right, It's you can't tell a 0:14:26.201 --> 0:14:27.921 teenager what to do. You've got to show them what 0:14:27.961 --> 0:14:31.121 to do by actually showing them is what you do. 0:14:31.481 --> 0:14:35.361 Is there a difference between and may've got the kindles 0:14:35.361 --> 0:14:37.681 and cobos, which I mean the one I've got to 0:14:37.761 --> 0:14:40.401 black and white thing and it's got the setting. The 0:14:40.441 --> 0:14:42.241 later it gets, the more orange it gets in fact, 0:14:42.281 --> 0:14:44.361 it gets so orange it's like staring at the reflection 0:14:44.401 --> 0:14:50.361 of Donald Trump. But anyway, but are those devices safer 0:14:50.601 --> 0:14:52.721 because they are I don't look, I don't have the 0:14:52.801 --> 0:14:54.841 latest Kindle or Cobo. I know some of them you 0:14:54.841 --> 0:14:57.561 can get the full color experience, but many of them 0:14:57.681 --> 0:15:01.281 they're just that black and white. Is that slightly is 0:15:01.321 --> 0:15:03.881 that slightly more much safer? 0:15:04.801 --> 0:15:07.921 Yeah, it's a lot better for our brains because we're 0:15:07.921 --> 0:15:11.481 not getting all those notifications. The notifications are really the killer, right, 0:15:11.641 --> 0:15:14.041 because you get a thing or whatever from your email 0:15:14.281 --> 0:15:16.601 or from social media and all those sorts of things 0:15:16.721 --> 0:15:22.241 that will actually then make you automatically, through habitual training, 0:15:22.361 --> 0:15:24.441 automatically open it and have a look at it. Whereas 0:15:24.441 --> 0:15:26.801 if you're on a kindle, there's no social media, and 0:15:26.841 --> 0:15:28.881 there's your email is not on there on all those things, 0:15:28.921 --> 0:15:31.881 so therefore you're not being constantly distracted by those things, 0:15:31.921 --> 0:15:34.361 and you can just do what you've gone there to do, 0:15:34.401 --> 0:15:37.601 which is just to re read a book. And even 0:15:37.641 --> 0:15:40.201 the color one now you can put into it that 0:15:40.281 --> 0:15:42.041 will go black and white at night so that you 0:15:42.081 --> 0:15:44.201 don't have that blue light just before you go to sleep. 0:15:46.081 --> 0:15:47.041 So what do you do? 0:15:47.281 --> 0:15:50.241 Are you concerned about devices in your own life from 0:15:50.281 --> 0:15:52.641 the point of view of your I don't know what 0:15:52.761 --> 0:15:54.601 I want to list the some priority, but what's the 0:15:54.601 --> 0:15:57.561 major issue would be for most people and including yourself. 0:15:57.921 --> 0:16:01.001 Is it about the effect on your cortisol levels and 0:16:01.081 --> 0:16:04.601 stress or is it for you just simply if it 0:16:04.601 --> 0:16:07.401 affects sleep, that's the first part of the slippery slope. 0:16:08.961 --> 0:16:12.441 Yeah, to me, it is the cortisole levels, because we 0:16:12.481 --> 0:16:15.041 know cortisole's quite toxic for your body if you have 0:16:15.121 --> 0:16:16.761 it for a long periods of time. So it's not 0:16:16.801 --> 0:16:19.081 only going to affect your brain in negative ways, it's 0:16:19.081 --> 0:16:21.521 going to affect your body in negative ways as well. 0:16:21.561 --> 0:16:23.321 And I want to stay healthy, right, I want to 0:16:23.641 --> 0:16:28.361 keep surfing into my sixties and seventies hopefully, and so 0:16:28.481 --> 0:16:33.201 therefore that concerns me a lot. And also the way 0:16:33.241 --> 0:16:36.441 I interact with other people when I'm stressed. Right, when 0:16:36.441 --> 0:16:39.201 we're stressed, we actually interact with the loved ones around 0:16:39.281 --> 0:16:42.241 us and all those differently than we would normally, and 0:16:42.321 --> 0:16:45.441 so that concerns me as well. So I try to 0:16:45.761 --> 0:16:48.481 limit the amount of time I'm on the devices when 0:16:48.521 --> 0:16:50.361 I'm at home and when I'm not working, and so 0:16:51.241 --> 0:16:51.881 young ones. 0:16:53.441 --> 0:16:55.601 A lot of my people have heard on my show 0:16:55.601 --> 0:16:57.361 I say this sometimes I like to ask the dumb 0:16:57.441 --> 0:17:01.681 questions or the lay person's question based on instinct. I 0:17:01.721 --> 0:17:04.801 almost wonder when I look at my daughters and look 0:17:04.801 --> 0:17:06.681 they and sound's busy with a whole lot of things. 0:17:07.961 --> 0:17:10.241 Our younger people in a way going to learn to 0:17:10.281 --> 0:17:13.241 handle their devices in a way better because they've grown 0:17:13.361 --> 0:17:14.441 up with them. 0:17:15.441 --> 0:17:16.281 Because I watch the. 0:17:16.241 --> 0:17:18.761 Way my daughters don't seem to be as attached to 0:17:18.801 --> 0:17:21.881 their devices as much as I thought they'd be. Mind you, 0:17:21.921 --> 0:17:24.801 but they're not on Facebook or Instagram, so there's no notifications. 0:17:24.801 --> 0:17:29.241 But is there something where we could be mildly hopeful 0:17:29.241 --> 0:17:32.241 that they might evolve to be able to cope with 0:17:32.281 --> 0:17:34.521 the stuff better simply because they've had to deal with 0:17:34.521 --> 0:17:35.281 it from a younger age. 0:17:35.321 --> 0:17:36.521 Or is it all bad news? 0:17:37.921 --> 0:17:42.121 Yeah? Great question. The problem is that our brains haven't 0:17:42.161 --> 0:17:44.961 really evolved, haven't really changed in the last ten thousand years, 0:17:45.361 --> 0:17:50.161 and so you can't change. You can't evolve that quickly. 0:17:50.201 --> 0:17:52.961 It takes thousands of years to actually change in a way, 0:17:53.001 --> 0:17:56.001 which could mean that it's actually positive for us. And 0:17:56.041 --> 0:17:59.321 there is a generation who got iPhones and so on 0:17:59.681 --> 0:18:02.081 at the end of their teenage years. So they've already 0:18:02.121 --> 0:18:04.921 developed their ability to control our attention and so on, 0:18:05.321 --> 0:18:07.561 and they've seen the negative impact of it, and so 0:18:07.721 --> 0:18:11.241 they treat it differently. We've now got a younger group 0:18:11.321 --> 0:18:16.001 who have grown up with it from basically birth or 0:18:16.041 --> 0:18:20.841 from very early on, and because it's affecting their attention, 0:18:21.241 --> 0:18:24.601 they're not developing a normal attentional net network. So therefore 0:18:24.641 --> 0:18:27.481 they can't control their attention and they can't stop themselves 0:18:27.481 --> 0:18:31.121 from being addicted to these devices. And we're also seeing 0:18:31.161 --> 0:18:33.961 that the younger a child is given a device, the 0:18:34.041 --> 0:18:38.001 more likely they have abnormal development of the white matter 0:18:38.041 --> 0:18:41.001 tracts areas of their brain, and the more likely they'll 0:18:41.041 --> 0:18:45.321 have ADHD symptoms or be diagnosed with ADHD. So it 0:18:45.361 --> 0:18:47.801 seems as though there was this really lucky group that 0:18:47.881 --> 0:18:50.441 got it in their late teens, and they'd already developed 0:18:50.801 --> 0:18:53.921 their attentional networks, and so therefore they were able to go, oh, 0:18:53.921 --> 0:18:56.241 this is a bit silly, and I'm not going to 0:18:56.401 --> 0:18:59.041 spend too much time on it. But the younger group 0:18:59.161 --> 0:19:01.641 that are now going into their teens and hitting the 0:19:01.681 --> 0:19:05.281 twenties seem to be really affected by it. And that's 0:19:05.321 --> 0:19:07.001 going to be a real problem in the future. 0:19:08.161 --> 0:19:09.161 So what do we do about it? 0:19:11.761 --> 0:19:14.481 We have more controls. I think one of the big 0:19:14.521 --> 0:19:18.841 problems is that there's a whole bunch of tech guys 0:19:19.001 --> 0:19:21.481 over in the US who are making billions of dollars 0:19:21.561 --> 0:19:25.361 out of our attention, and we're not making and we're 0:19:25.401 --> 0:19:29.041 losing our time. I have a colleague who did calculations 0:19:29.081 --> 0:19:31.281 recently and they looked at how much time a kid 0:19:31.321 --> 0:19:34.681 spends on a device, both in school and at home, 0:19:34.761 --> 0:19:38.561 and then how that will project into the future, and 0:19:38.641 --> 0:19:43.841 it's something like thirty years they'll spend on a screen, right, 0:19:43.921 --> 0:19:45.761 And that's really sad that they're going to lose it. 0:19:45.761 --> 0:19:50.041 That much of their time on a screen, and that's 0:19:50.081 --> 0:19:52.881 just doom scrolling doing those things. It's not actually working. 0:19:53.801 --> 0:19:54.881 So that's a high level. 0:19:54.921 --> 0:19:57.961 That's like eight hours a day, isn't it. 0:19:58.001 --> 0:20:00.281 Well, if you look at it, a lot of the 0:20:00.401 --> 0:20:02.401 kids are spending up to six hours a day on 0:20:02.561 --> 0:20:06.401 a device right on a screen, either gaming or social 0:20:06.441 --> 0:20:09.961 media or doing all those things. Most teenagers these days 0:20:09.961 --> 0:20:12.361 will be spending at least six hours a day on 0:20:13.081 --> 0:20:18.001 a device outside of school time, which is just horrendous. 0:20:18.081 --> 0:20:20.361 I think because they're not doing the things that we 0:20:20.361 --> 0:20:24.721 actually need to do. We look at places like the 0:20:24.761 --> 0:20:26.921 Silicon Valley, there's a whole bunch of schools of Waldorf 0:20:26.921 --> 0:20:29.041 schools over there where they have no devices in any 0:20:29.121 --> 0:20:33.521