1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: It is time for politics Wednesday. Ginny Anderson Marc Mitchell 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: both with us. 3 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, by. 4 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Right, let's just do the let's just do the obvious 5 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: thing firstly and move on to some other issues. Ginny, 6 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: you first, you're as a former Minister of Police. Your 7 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: observations of the last couple of days. 8 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 3: Are you talking about Tom Phillips. Yes, just a tragedy, 9 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 3: an absolute tragedy for the community, for the family and 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 3: the children, and for the for the police officer who's 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 3: been critically injured, in his family and colleagues. So no 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 3: one wins out of situations like this, and it's it's 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: a tough time for all of New Zealand to watch 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,279 Speaker 3: this roll out to day by day. 15 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: And from your observation, did the police over the last 16 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: four years, and you would have been part of this, 17 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: of course, do their job. 18 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 3: I think the police do an amazing job and this 19 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: is an incredibly complex situation. I've been into that area 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 3: myself over the last few years, have looked around and 21 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 3: it is a very remote and difficult part of New 22 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: Zealand to navigate, with a lot of back roads. So 23 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 3: I think the police did everything they could keeping in 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 3: mind that there are three children involved at the same time. 25 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: Mark, Yeah, I mean the police is quite simply have 26 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: been outstanding. The commissioner and I spent time with the 27 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: officer's family yesterday. We took his wife with us up 28 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: to the hospital to visit him. He's got a long 29 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: road to recovery, but he's got a road to recovery, 30 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: and that's what we're thankful about. Just wanted to reassure 31 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: him that, of course, his family going to be looked 32 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 2: after and have the support wrapped around that they need 33 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 2: and a chance to be able to acknowledge him in 34 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: the outstanding that he did. The two officers that were 35 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: with him, without a doubt, saved his life. It was 36 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 2: obvious that Phillips was intent on killing him through his actions. 37 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: And of course the huge relief is that now we've 38 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: got those children in a safe situation where they can 39 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: be looked after and get them back on a healthy 40 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: pathway to recovery as well. 41 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: Do you have a view, Mark, is it enough now 42 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: for the media that the media need to back off 43 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: and just like let this thing play out and some 44 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: of the kids to be left alone and the agencies 45 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: to do their job, or is there enough interest from 46 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: the public to know more and therefore the sort of 47 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: coverage we're starting to see as acceptable. 48 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: I think there's genuine public interests in this, of course, 49 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: and so they'll probably and the police will keep the 50 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: public updated in terms of as the investigations progress. But 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 2: I think that if I think all of us as key, 52 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: we as a country would agree that the privacy of 53 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: those children, looking after those children, giving them the best 54 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: possible start, get well, restart is what everyone has focused on. 55 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: Do you have a view, Ginny? 56 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: I think it reflects the age that we live in. 57 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 3: Everybody gets to be a commentator because of social media, 58 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: and when you're talking about the well being of three 59 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 3: young people, it does make it really difficult. They've still 60 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 3: got to live here in New Zealand and grow up 61 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 3: and allen. So my foremost concerns that their privacy and 62 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 3: their well being is protected, and that's a challenging time 63 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 3: given that the age we live in. 64 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: What mark do you do? And I'm not trying to 65 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: get you in trouble or anyone in trouble. I'm just 66 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: interested in there's a suppression order here. That suppression order 67 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: does not apply clearly to social media and it will 68 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: not apply to the international media once they get their 69 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: hands on it. What do you do as a legislator? 70 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: Are we living as the horse bolted? In other words? 71 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: I mean, this is just essentially a waste of time. 72 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: Well, I agree with you that we live in an 73 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: age now where people are going to report things online. 74 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: But obviously, you know in our position as ministers that 75 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: we have to the courts have put out directions on 76 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: this case at the moment, which means that there are 77 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: certain things that we can't talk about and we just 78 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: have to we have to comply with that. But you're 79 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: right that international media, those that aren't that don't have 80 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: to comply with those rules, will will report on things 81 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: and get information out there. 82 00:03:58,240 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: So, Jenny, what's the point. 83 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 3: I mean, we had the same situation with the Grace 84 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: Malaane case where there were identity details released about the 85 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: offender in that instance that were not that were made 86 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 3: public and compromised the judicial process here in New Zealand, 87 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: and so you know, I think potentially we could take 88 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 3: another look at our laws, you know, around how are 89 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 3: they working. How are we dealing with an age of 90 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: social media when privacy needs to be protected in order 91 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: for the integrity of a judicial or an inquiry to 92 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: take its place in. 93 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: Your brief breakin. Sorry, it's going to say. 94 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: The point that why it's making though, is that our 95 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: laws did not extend internationally, so we cannot control what 96 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: people are doing in other countries or the locked and 97 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: don at all. In fact, quite the opposite, is it, 98 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: especially if you're taking into account young children. Yeah, a 99 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: responsibility around this is critically important, but that's not the 100 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: area that we live in now. 101 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: It is not a couple of quick comments if you 102 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't mind mark you on Julie Christy as in the 103 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: documentary maker she's got access apparently to some sort of 104 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: insight information from the police and is making it doco 105 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: on this. Is that acceptable in your view or not? 106 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? 107 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean she's I think she's They've been making 108 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: a doco and following this story now for a while 109 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: and they've made they've gone through all the correct protocols 110 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: and made sure that they have done things the right way. 111 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: Of course, there's some things that they have access to 112 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: some areas and and and some people, and obviously where 113 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: it's appropriate, access is blocked. But from what I understand, 114 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: they've gone through all the correct protocols to be able 115 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: to do that. 116 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: How do we ask for privacy for the kids while 117 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: doing a documentary. 118 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 2: Well, that's something they're going to have to work out 119 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: and figure out, because of course, the priority around anything 120 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: that we do is going to be around the privacy 121 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: and the welfare of those children. So that is something 122 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: that police obviously will have to bring forward and work 123 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: out with Julian. The work they're doing you're. 124 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: Going to view, Jinny. 125 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 3: Look, i'd have to say the details. I haven't mean 126 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 3: privy to what they've been given access to. But my 127 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 3: primary concerns are these kids have to go to school 128 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. They have to live, no doubt in 129 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: small town New Zealand, and so my concern is that 130 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: when you get things like that yet, it just increases 131 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 3: your tension on them in their lives, and that's really 132 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: my worry. 133 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: You said something interesting, Jenny, I may have misinterpreted what 134 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: you were meaning you talked about you'd been there, it's 135 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: a difficult part of the country. What surprised me is 136 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: the reaction we've had over the last few years from 137 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: some of the people who live in that area and 138 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: support that going and it strikes me there is something 139 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: wrong with parts of New Zealand, or it's just maybe 140 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: that we're in urban New Zealand completely out of touch 141 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: with that particular style of New Zealand living. But it 142 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: seems to me at times a different world. 143 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: It is a different world. I've been into that road. 144 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: It's one road into essentially quite a closed community who 145 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 3: everyone knows each other. There's kind of a local agreement 146 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 3: that you only let someone by land once they pass 147 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: a test, and they all have a say on who 148 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: gets to come in. So it's a very tight knit, 149 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: closed community and it's a very difficult to Those two 150 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: kind of go hand in hand. So I think that 151 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 3: there are parts of there are parts here that would 152 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: have known where he was. 153 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, are they sort of sovereign citizen esque? 154 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: Well, I went into the pub and they seem very nice. 155 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: I had a good chat with a number of locals 156 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: in there, and they were very welcoming and open. So 157 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 3: I wouldn't say so, but I'd say that everyone knows 158 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: who everyone is, and they know a lot about what 159 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: goes on locally, and it's very unusual to have a 160 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 3: stranger come into that community. 161 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: You agreement. 162 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: I just say that, I just think that our rural 163 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: communities are quite simply outstanding. They do look after each 164 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: other and keep an eye es for each other, but 165 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 2: they're no different to any other key we in the 166 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: set of values that we hold, and I think that 167 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: I think that what I would say is this is 168 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: that the police have been very clear and I'm being 169 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: clear about this as well anyone that has been supporting 170 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: and enabling him. There is now a very thorough ongoing 171 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: police investigation and they. 172 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: Will be how to account Okay, super quick. On another thing, 173 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: News of the morning, this ministerial and are into organized crime? 174 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: Do you agree Mark that we need a Minister of 175 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: organized Crime? 176 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: Well, I agree that we needed to have a ministerial 177 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: advisory group set up to so that we could have 178 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: a look and see that These are all recommendations that 179 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: have been forward. I'm not going to preempt it that 180 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 2: has to go through a full cabinet process. I'm not 181 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 2: going to pre empt any decisions that are going to 182 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: be in cabinet. But the one thing I would say 183 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: is that we already have already started work across government 184 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: to make sure that we have a much more joined 185 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: up approach to how we deal with international organized crime 186 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: and gangs and crime in this country. 187 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: Okay, Jinny, I've got yeah, well I've seen from Justice Committee. 188 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 3: So we've got Nicole McKee who's getting rid of all 189 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 3: the red tape on anti money laundering with one hand 190 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: of the government, and the other hand you've got Casey 191 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: Costello who's cracking down on an organized crime and making 192 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: sure it's tougher for gangs to do their business. So 193 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 3: just within this government alone, there's two quite different agendas 194 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 3: that they're conflicting in terms of how we have one 195 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 3: unified response. 196 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 2: I'm in New Zealand, so I'm inside the I'll work 197 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: with both of those ladies that we sit down together 198 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: constantly figuring out what we need to do. We're actually 199 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 2: making really good in roads and dealing with with both 200 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: transnational crime and organized crimes. We've just been over in 201 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: Australia and they're admiring the work that we're doing. Are 202 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 2: we're working across ministers. However, the mag report just gives 203 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: us a good signal in terms of how we continue 204 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: to build on that work. 205 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: Okay, real quick, both of you, because just to get 206 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: a comment that this is typical of the texts we're 207 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: receiving a lot of not totally but a lot of 208 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: embarrassing for police not finding the guy for four years. Pathetic, really, Ginny, 209 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: you say, well, look, I. 210 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: Think it's very difficult to understand how that the work 211 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 3: for the police pans out. So I'm not going to 212 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: pass judgment on New Zealand police. They work incredibly in 213 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: difficult situations and this one was a complex case. So 214 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 3: I think you need to have an understanding of all 215 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: those details, and I'm sure they will come out once 216 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 3: the investigation is complete, but I think people need to 217 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: see all of that information before they pass judgment. 218 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: Well, I totally reject that, and they shouldn't be passing 219 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: judgment like that if you actually have a look at 220 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: what unfolded with the arrest and the attempt at arrest 221 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: of Tom Phillips is that he had multiple firearms, he 222 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: had intent to there was no way that he was 223 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 2: going to be taken peacefully, and he had three children 224 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 2: in the bush. It presented probably the worst case scenario 225 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: for police in terms of trying to deal with that, 226 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: and the forefront of their minds and everything that they're 227 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: doing was the safe recovery of those children of course 228 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: they wanted a peaceful outcome with Tom Phillips himself, but 229 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: it was very clear by the actions that we saw unfold. 230 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: We now have a police officer with critical injuries in 231 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: hospital having to recover, and I think the police have 232 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: quite simply approached, have taken the right approach on this. 233 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 2: It has always been around the safety of the children. 234 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: And I think if they'd stumbled, and it would have 235 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: been easy for them to put an operation together and 236 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: go in there and try and raid the camp and 237 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: recover them. But look at what might have occurred. In fact, 238 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: probably what would have could as you know, you could 239 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: have ended up with a complete tragedy with the loss 240 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: of the children. 241 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: All right, guys, appreciate it very much. Mike Mitchell, Ginny Anderson. 242 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 243 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 244 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.