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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalk ZEDB.

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Speaker 2: Nine days now since the biggest sports story in recent

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Speaker 2: memory played out with New Zealand Rugby parting ways with

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Speaker 2: Scott Robertson, attention has now turned to the recruitment of

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Speaker 2: a new head coach, with the All Blacks about to

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Speaker 2: embark on their biggest year for some time and the

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Speaker 2: Rugby World Cup in twenty twenty seven now on the horizon.

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Speaker 2: So where to now? What is the process for finding

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Speaker 2: the new coach? Is time of the essence here? And

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Speaker 2: who's going to run the recruitment and make the decision?

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Speaker 2: With no CEO currently in place, We've assembled two of

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Speaker 2: the most respected voices in the New Zealand rugby media

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Speaker 2: journalist with the New Zealand Herald and prominent rugby writer

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Speaker 2: Gregor Paul is with us. Thanks for the time or

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Speaker 2: taking the time, Gregor.

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Speaker 3: Good afternoon, Good afternoon, plenty and.

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Speaker 2: Tony Johnson, Sky sport commentator also on the line, TJ.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon to you, hey, Pony. TJ. Is Jamie Joseph

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Speaker 2: the front runner for.

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Speaker 4: The role, Well, it would appear so, just from the

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Speaker 4: fact that he was contracted as coach of the All

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Speaker 4: Blacks fifteen, means that he's right there in the mix.

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Speaker 4: But I do think that there has to be a process.

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Speaker 4: I mean, David Kirk made it clear that they have

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Speaker 4: to cast the net, that this can't be a rubbish

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Speaker 4: stamping exercise. That they have got to see. They've got

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Speaker 4: to shake the tree and see who is available who

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Speaker 4: would like to, as Limasopolga put it, walk into the

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Speaker 4: fire because they've got, as you say, the massive year

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Speaker 4: ahead of them, which is going to be extremely demanding,

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Speaker 4: and then of course the World Cup next year, and

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Speaker 4: so I don't think they can leave a single stone unturned.

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Speaker 4: They can't just go for the most convenient option. They've

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Speaker 4: got to go for the most credentialed coaches. So look,

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Speaker 4: there's no question that he's front and center of the

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Speaker 4: thinking at the moment, but there are other names as

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Speaker 4: well that, if available, would certainly be intenders for that role.

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Speaker 2: Gregor, and look, I totally agree with that TJ. Casting

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Speaker 2: the net widely and not just quickly making a decision

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Speaker 2: is obviously the best strategy. But Greg, is there time

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Speaker 2: for that? Super Rugby starts in less than three weeks

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Speaker 2: off it is Jamie Joseph Highlanders need a plan b

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Speaker 2: whoever it is, we'll want to start watching Super Rugby

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Speaker 2: with a selection focus, won't they.

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Speaker 3: Well, they could probably do that regardless. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think if you're interested in the job, you can Look.

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Speaker 3: Coaches will be watching Super Rugby as it is anyway,

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Speaker 3: whether it's Dave Rennie in Japan or Joke Schmitt in Australia,

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Speaker 3: these guys are going to be watching it. And look,

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Speaker 3: I don't think you need to be overly concerned about

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Speaker 3: Super Rugby until maybe for equal time where you really

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Speaker 3: need a hard focus. It's about that point in the competition.

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Speaker 3: Historically we're All Blacks coaches have really drilled in a

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Speaker 3: bit deeper at that point. So look, there's definitely time

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Speaker 3: to your point about Jamie, Look, he could probably still coach.

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Speaker 3: In my view, I think he could still coach the

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Speaker 3: Highlanders even if he is anointed head coach of the

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Speaker 3: All Blacks. We're saying Australia do that with Les Kiss.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's the worst thing for him to

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Speaker 3: wear two hats at that time if it is him

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Speaker 3: in the role. And look to Tony's point, I absolutely

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Speaker 3: agree with everything he said. It's about getting the right

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Speaker 3: candidate Jamie has. I guess he has the fortutuitous position

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Speaker 3: that he's contracted to New Zealand Rugby. Therefore he is

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Speaker 3: available because they just switch his role from being with

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Speaker 3: the Islanders, you know, to being with the All Blacks.

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Speaker 3: It might be harder for other guys contracted elsewhere, but

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Speaker 3: I think that's part of the thing about coaching the

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Speaker 3: All Blacks. If you want to do it, you find

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Speaker 3: a way to make yourself available to do it. TJ.

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Speaker 2: Tony Brown, as we now, has worked extensively with Jamie Joseph.

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Speaker 2: He spoke with Mike Cosking here on zb Thursday morning

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Speaker 2: and reaffirmed his commitment to South Africa for the rest

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Speaker 2: of his contract, which runs until the next World Cup.

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Speaker 2: Is Jamie Joseph without Tony Brown a less appealing proposition?

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Speaker 4: Well, certainly, Jamie Joseph with Tony Brown as an extremely

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Speaker 4: appealing proposition, because we know that they can work together,

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Speaker 4: that they are a real sort of like a Barnian

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Speaker 4: thread type combination. They compliment each other really well, bacon

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Speaker 4: and egg type of thing. That they know each other

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Speaker 4: so well that they bring different attributes, So definitely Tony

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Speaker 4: Brown in this corner would make Jamie an even stronger candidate. Look,

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Speaker 4: I guess we have to say that he made his

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Speaker 4: point that he's committed to South African rugby. I don't

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Speaker 4: know this, maybe just a one percent of me thinking

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Speaker 4: there is potentially a way out of it, because even

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Speaker 4: Rugby would probably have to buy him out of his contract.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that's something that South African Rugby would

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Speaker 4: want to happen, and they'd make it very difficult for

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Speaker 4: that to happen. I guess we just have to take

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Speaker 4: Tony on his word about that. But there's no question

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Speaker 4: that Tony Brown in the mix as quite an inner

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Speaker 4: ative coach, someone that might bring back a little bit

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Speaker 4: of that mojo that seems to have been missing from

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Speaker 4: the All Black game. Would make it a very appealing combination.

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Speaker 4: But if he says he's committed to South African rugby,

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Speaker 4: I guess that's that's the state of it, And to me,

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Speaker 4: that means that they have to go for someone with

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Speaker 4: a proven record, someone with really strong international credentials, because

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Speaker 4: this is kind of in a way, there's a bit

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Speaker 4: of crisis management coming into this as well. They're just

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Speaker 4: going to have to step into the breach, hit the

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Speaker 4: ground running when it's done, because there's no real honeymoon

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Speaker 4: period this year, is there?

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Speaker 2: No? No indeed messive You're coming up in the World Cup,

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Speaker 2: as I say, on the horizon. Okay, then, Gregor, who

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Speaker 2: are the other candidates? Who are those who tick the

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Speaker 2: boxes that are required? Jamie Joseph we know as one.

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Speaker 2: Who are the other strong candidates?

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Speaker 3: Well, well, if you forget about in voted com of availability,

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Speaker 3: guys who've coached internationally who I'm zelanders Dave Rainnie, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think he was. He's got good international experience with

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Speaker 3: the Wallabies, he knows the New Zealand scene. Well, I

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Speaker 3: don't know why the Wallabies ever got rid of him,

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Speaker 3: and it was a mad move to bring in Eddie

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Speaker 3: Jones at the time. So Dave carries a lot of respect,

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Speaker 3: a lot of ability. Joe Schmidt, you know, currently with

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Speaker 3: the Wallabies, another pride New Zealander who again imminently capable

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Speaker 3: of doing the role. A lot of players loved having

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Speaker 3: him in the team when he was the assistant coach

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two and twenty three. Again, question mark,

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Speaker 3: does he want to jump out of the Wallabies into

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Speaker 3: the All Blacks, and he's got a well known family

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Speaker 3: situation that has precluded him in the past of wanting

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Speaker 3: to be overly committed to its job. So yeah, Varen

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Speaker 3: Coott did a great job of Scotland. I know it's Scotland,

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Speaker 3: everyone laughing, but great, great job there. He goes to

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Speaker 3: the very nearly to the semi final of the World

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Speaker 3: Cup in two fifteen. And there's probably a few other

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Speaker 3: names I'm not recalling off the top of my head here.

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Speaker 3: Ian Foster would be another guy again, you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: not as a head coach, but a guy who was

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Speaker 3: an excellent attack coach for a long time with the

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Speaker 3: All Blacks before he became the head coach. And he's

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Speaker 3: the kind of guy who's got the lack of ego

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Speaker 3: that he could slip back into an All Black coaching

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Speaker 3: group without wanting to be the head coach and make

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Speaker 3: a really good contribution to the team. So he'd be

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Speaker 3: another name. I wouldn't rule out at the stage.

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Speaker 2: Any others to throw in.

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Speaker 4: TJ.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 4: Look, I think those are the sorts of ilk that

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Speaker 4: you've got to be talking about. It's just whether they're

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Speaker 4: willing enable that was gone back to Wayne Smith so

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Speaker 4: many times, haven't we But I just liked the idea

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Speaker 4: of having him in the mix. He came into the

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Speaker 4: All Black mix for a time and you saw immediately

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Speaker 4: that he had an imprint on the team. Whether or

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Speaker 4: not he's prepared to step back into the breach again,

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Speaker 4: you've got to remember that he had to be He

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Speaker 4: really had to be hard talked into coming back into

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Speaker 4: the All Black prole way back was twenty one years

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Speaker 4: ago when Graham Henry took over the job, and then

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Speaker 4: again after two thousand and seven when that all went

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Speaker 4: a bit pear shaped. So whether or not he'd be

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Speaker 4: willing to do it, I think the fact that it's

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Speaker 4: only two years only in inverted commas might help with

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Speaker 4: their peal of people like that, the likes of Wayne

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Speaker 4: Smith and Joe Smith that it's not a long term commitment.

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Speaker 4: So ye, But as I say, those the sort of

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Speaker 4: elk I suppose the question remains then who of the

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Speaker 4: current panel might survive, which opens up a whole other

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Speaker 4: world of discussion. But have made it pretty clear that

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Speaker 4: they want to put the head coach in place and

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Speaker 4: then try and assemble the best available names around him

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Speaker 4: rather than go for a team of coaches. And I

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Speaker 4: think in this circumstance, that's a really wise approach to take.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely it is TJ because Tiny Brown talked about being

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Speaker 2: part of Jamie Joseph's pitch for the top job when

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Speaker 2: Scott Robertson was successful in twenty twenty three, and they're

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Speaker 2: not being considered as part of Robertson's team as a

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Speaker 2: change of process needed full stop that we hired a

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Speaker 2: head coach and then let him pick the assistance from

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Speaker 2: everybody who's available.

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Speaker 4: Well, I suppose you look back to when Graham Henry

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Speaker 4: pitched for the job. Going in with Wayne Smith and

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Speaker 4: Steve Anson made it just a lay down massa. That

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Speaker 4: was the dream team. They named it that at the

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Speaker 4: time and in time it took a while, but it

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Speaker 4: proved to be ultimately that it was. They finally broke

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Speaker 4: that World Cup duck in twenty eleven, built the foundations

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Speaker 4: of what I still believe it's the greatest all black

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Speaker 4: team ever, possibly the greatest rugby team ever. Springbok fans

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Speaker 4: will probably argue that right now, but yeah, that was

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Speaker 4: That's kind of given us this mindset that it has

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Speaker 4: to be a team, whereas I think the situation right

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Speaker 4: now doesn't necessarily allow for that. Yes, as I say,

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Speaker 4: Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown, that's a great combination that

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Speaker 4: would form part of your team. But I do think

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Speaker 4: that taking the right approach this time, they're kind of

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Speaker 4: bucking the trend a little bit. No, we want a

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Speaker 4: head coach in place and then we get the best

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Speaker 4: possible team around them. I think it's the only way

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Speaker 4: that they can confront the situation that they find themselves

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Speaker 4: in with the All Blacks.

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Speaker 2: So Gregor at the moment, the rest of the All

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Speaker 2: Blacks coaching group have retained their positions for now anyway,

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Speaker 2: and name they're surely at the mercy of the new

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Speaker 2: head coach though, aren't they.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they are. They're in a kind of technical legal limbo,

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Speaker 3: I suppose, because as I understand it, their contracts have

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Speaker 3: a jettison clause if you're like which says, if the

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Speaker 3: head coach is terminated, then we have the right to

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Speaker 3: terminate your contract to you know, a low for the

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Speaker 3: choices that get made by the incoming head coach. Now

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Speaker 3: that means that they're fit, ready and available for selection

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Speaker 3: if you like, but the new coach coming in is

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Speaker 3: not obliged to necessarily stick with them, and in which case,

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Speaker 3: you know, they can be replaced and they will be

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Speaker 3: let go. Now it's an interesting proposition because, as I

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Speaker 3: understand it, we're talking here Scott Hansen, Jason Ryan, and

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Speaker 3: Tanathy Elson. Jason Holland's already left of his own volition.

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Speaker 3: You've got three guys who, as I believe, have rated

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Speaker 3: pretty well with the players. They've been deemed to be

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Speaker 3: good technical coaches with good detail of the roles. Certainly,

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Speaker 3: I think Jason Ryan has a lot of the young

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Speaker 3: forward peck playing pretty well, and he's quite popular with

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Speaker 3: the guys and they like the way he coaches. And

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Speaker 3: I think the same as apparently being said about Scott

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Speaker 3: Hanson as well, who's probably had a tricky role in

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Speaker 3: the All Black team because it's never been quite clear

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Speaker 3: what his role is. But that's not his fault. Technically,

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Speaker 3: he's proven to be a good coach. Players are quite

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Speaker 3: comfortable with his ability all that kind of stuff. So

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Speaker 3: they're sitting there and he zially needs to be careful

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Speaker 3: here that you know, these guys might still actually have

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Speaker 3: quite a bit to offer. They might prove to be

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Speaker 3: the best candidates because they've got a little bit of

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Speaker 3: inside knowledge of the team. They've been there for a

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Speaker 3: couple of years. So you have to think really carefully

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Speaker 3: about whether these guys. I know, there's some sexy names

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Speaker 3: out there, you know, like if Dave Annie could work

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Speaker 3: with Jamie, if Tony Brown could come in and work,

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Speaker 3: you start thinking, Wow, that's the package. But there are

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Speaker 3: there are good guys sitting in the mix at the moment,

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Speaker 3: so there is a possibility that they could be retained,

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Speaker 3: but also new coach coming in might take a view. Look,

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Speaker 3: there's a bit of there might be a bit of

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Speaker 3: a taint on them. There might be a perception problem

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Speaker 3: that if you keep a couple of guys from a

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Speaker 3: regime that's been deemed to not be working, that could

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Speaker 3: come back to haunt you if you don't get the

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Speaker 3: results that you want. So Gutfield, they're probably going to

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Speaker 3: move those guys on.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that there's a perception around Scott Hansen,

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Speaker 4: isn't there? Gregor that? And I think you highlighted quite

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Speaker 4: a bit that the very prominent role that he took

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Speaker 4: that if you started out with the coaching group that

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Speaker 4: had equal roles. Well, it was a bit like animal farms.

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Speaker 4: Some very quickly became more equal than others, and that

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Speaker 4: he's kind of tied to raise it in terms of

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Speaker 4: public perception seen as is very much his right hand

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Speaker 4: ban that they were kind of coaching right at the

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Speaker 4: forefront of the coaching group, and that perception might count

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Speaker 4: against him. In terms of Jason Ryan, I know people

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Speaker 4: hark back to a few scrum meltdowns that the All

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Speaker 4: Blacks had this year, and I think that's a fair point,

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Speaker 4: but you also have to remember the imprint or the

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Speaker 4: impact I should say that he had on the team

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Speaker 4: when he first came in, That they'd had that selection

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Speaker 4: of a coaching group under Ian Foster that didn't prove

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Speaker 4: to be optimum, That they had had Moore and John

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Speaker 4: Plumtree there and they were moved on. Jason Ryan came

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Speaker 4: in and made an immediate impact, fixed some problems, and

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Speaker 4: so I think he's got this despite the issues that

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Speaker 4: people will point to with some scrums that went wrong

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Speaker 4: last year, I think he's probably of the group. He's

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Speaker 4: got pretty strong credentials to stay there. But again it's

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Speaker 4: really just going to depend on who gets the coach's

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Speaker 4: the head coach's job, and who else that he can

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Speaker 4: bring in, because if one of them's a forward coach,

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Speaker 4: that that might count against Jason Ryan. If one of

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Speaker 4: them has more of a Bax type oriented game, like

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Speaker 4: a Dave Renny, maybe that counts against Scott Hansen. So

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Speaker 4: it's I think those guys at the moment you'd say

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Speaker 4: that they're on hold, They're not out of contention, but

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Speaker 4: it's really just going to depend on what has formed

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Speaker 4: and who gets the top job.

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Speaker 2: Just to finish and to zoom this out a little bit, guys, Gregory,

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Speaker 2: you rot a great piece yesterday talking about the hunt

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Speaker 2: for a CEO for New Zealand Rugby which is ongoing,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know whether it's Gie or the headline

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Speaker 2: right accorded to Unicorn hunt is the vacancy is New

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Speaker 2: Zealand Rugby CEO for Shock in this recruitment process.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, It's It's tricky, isn't it, because you want to

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Speaker 3: know who's leading the process and we want to know

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Speaker 3: the relationship between the chief exec and the old black

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Speaker 3: hedge coach head coach is critical to team performance ongoing.

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Speaker 3: As you know, having written Ian Folster's book clearly his

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Speaker 3: relationship with former CEO Mark Robinson broke down early in

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Speaker 3: the tenure and became an ongoing problem that got worse

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Speaker 3: and worse. So like that, there's a slight issue there

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Speaker 3: that we don't know who necessarily will lead the process.

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Speaker 3: But as I understand that the ends at our board

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Speaker 3: will empower interim CEO Steve Lancaster to determine, you know,

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Speaker 3: with consultation with others, with the high Performance team, you know,

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Speaker 3: with other leading figures, you know, how do we go

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Speaker 3: around doing this? And I think Tony's point it seems

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Speaker 3: that they will go head coach first, you know, and

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Speaker 3: how in how do they do that? They do they

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Speaker 3: have an interview process? Are they going to just short

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Speaker 3: this guys and put them in front of the board.

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Speaker 3: That's to be determined how they get to that point.

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Speaker 3: But I think Steve Lancaster as a CEO at the moment,

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Speaker 3: will be in charge of getting to the point where

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Speaker 3: they identify I don't know one, two or three head

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Speaker 3: coach possibilities and put them in front of the New

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Speaker 3: Zealand Rugby board to make the pitch, or put them

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Speaker 3: in front of a high performance board to make a pitch,

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Speaker 3: and that could be you know, a collection of people,

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Speaker 3: former All Black coaches, people from other sports that get

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Speaker 3: to valuate, and then the board ultimately will make the

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Speaker 3: call about who, you know, who is who is the

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Speaker 3: head coach, but that will probably be after a high

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Speaker 3: performance committee has recommended a name to them or a

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Speaker 3: preferred candidate. But look, it is a bit nigglily because

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Speaker 3: a CEO, a permanent CEO, will probably arrive at some

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Speaker 3: point after this process. But that's just life. They're going

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Speaker 3: to just have to come in and build a relations

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Speaker 3: with the All blackhead coach and trust that the prosers

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Speaker 3: to put him in there was the right one, all right.

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Speaker 2: Just to finish with you, then TJ, as they cast

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Speaker 2: the net, Widen go through the process that Greg had

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Speaker 2: just outlined, which seems extremely sensible to me. When are

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Speaker 2: we going to have the new coach? Are we talking March?

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Speaker 2: Are we talking April? It can't be too much leads

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Speaker 2: than that, can it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, frankly, I've got no idea. I do agree that

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Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be made in the next week

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Speaker 4: or so. I think we'd all like it to be

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Speaker 4: made in the next week. So we knew what who

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Speaker 4: was doing what, and we could move on from this.

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Speaker 4: But I just think they can't afford to get this wrong.

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Speaker 4: But there's a fair bit on the plate. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think David Kirk has shown enough and he's kind

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Speaker 4: of stepped into that role. He's a bit like sort

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Speaker 4: of pretty weeper. At the World Cup in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 4: he was playing half back, but he was sort of

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Speaker 4: playing half first five as well. And here's David Kirk.

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Speaker 4: He's kind of covering the roles of chair and CEO

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Speaker 4: and probably hit a high performance as well. Because I

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Speaker 4: understand and I think Greg could confirm this. I don't

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Speaker 4: know that Mike Anthony soon to be departed at a

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Speaker 4: high performance, whether he was actually involved in the process

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Speaker 4: of reviewing the All Blacks at all. But boy, they've

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Speaker 4: got some vacancies to fill. A CEO, a CFO or

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Speaker 4: c CEO, and HHP, a head coach and the coaching staff.

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Speaker 4: That's all. That's all going to take time. I guess

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Speaker 4: that I think that the number one priority is that

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Speaker 4: they do have to sort out the all Black coach,

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Speaker 4: because you'd expect them to be I agree that what

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Speaker 4: happens in the first few weeks of Super Rugby. It's

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Speaker 4: not a problem I think midway by, but at least

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Speaker 4: by six weeks into Super Rugby, I think you'd really

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Speaker 4: want to know who's going to be coaching the All Blacks,

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Speaker 4: and they'd want to know too, So it's got to

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Speaker 4: be a thorough process. But they'll be hoping that they

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Speaker 4: can make it a reasonable time. And then I understand

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Speaker 4: that one or two of those other roles are about

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Speaker 4: to be filled quite soon anyway, But then the CEO

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Speaker 4: becomes a pressing issue as well. So yeah, it's a

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Speaker 4: tricky landscape at the moment. But I do think that

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Speaker 4: David Kirk I do like the way he has at

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Speaker 4: least taken the ball by the Harnts. It's a lot

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Speaker 4: of sympathy around for Scott Robertson at the moment. You

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Speaker 4: don't go like this, he's a likable guy. You don't

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Speaker 4: like seeing people lose their jobs as kind of a

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Speaker 4: public humiliation. But I think he acted if they were

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Speaker 4: going to make the decision, they had to make it

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Speaker 4: when they did, and now it's just a matter of

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Speaker 4: moving efficiently to get the right people in the right jobs.

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Speaker 2: Good Man, Tony and you Gregor great analysis from you both.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for lending us your time and expertise.

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Speaker 2: Gregor Paul and Tony Johnson was some thoughts on where

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Speaker 2: to now for New Zealand rugby as they seek a

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Speaker 2: new All Blacks head coach Scott robertson nine days ago

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Speaker 2: relieved of the position, Lots to unpack there.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talk ZEDB weekends from midday or follow the

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