1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: ACT Party leader David Seymour will become a New Zealand's 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister tomorrow, taking over from Winston Peters. Will 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: be the nineteenth person to be the country's second in command. 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 2: First elected to Parliament in twenty fourteen, the last decade 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: and a bit has seen Seymour's meteoric rise from being 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: his party's sole mpte now sitting alongside ten colleagues after 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: Act's best ever result in the twenty twenty three election. 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: That result has allowed him to push through big changes 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: around issues like regulation and government spending, but championing legislations 14 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: such as the Treaty Principles Bill has also made him 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: a lightning rod for controversy and backlash. Today, on the 16 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: Front Page Age, Seymour joins us to talk about his 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 2: new role. Backlash has faced, regulations and his thoughts on 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: the opposition. So, David, this Deputy Prime minister handover has 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: been on the cards for some time now. 20 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: Are you excited about this change? 21 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, it's one of those things you probably didn't 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 3: think would happen in your life, but here we are. 23 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 3: I think it's good for New Zeland. Shows a few 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 3: bit quirky, but if your heart's in the right place 25 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: and you put in the work, you know it's crowded house, 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 3: so you can get somewhere. 27 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: And can you believe it's come around so quickly? 28 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 4: Though? 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: As well? 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 3: I think it's just one of those times in life 31 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 3: where you know, everything goes at a million miles an hour. 32 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 3: Idea reading on Sunday, kebinet on Monday, caucus on Tuesday, 33 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 3: question time on Wednesday, go campaigning on Thursday, ipsom on Friday, 34 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 3: have Saturday off and rinse and repeat. It's pretty much 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 3: what it's been like for the last seventy weeks. 36 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: Do you expect this to be a shift in power 37 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: in the coalition? Is act in the front seat now 38 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: alongside National or has it been kind of a three 39 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: way from the get go? 40 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: No? I don't think so. The coalition is a very 41 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 3: respectful one. Everyone has a role to play, everyone has 42 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 3: their own interest. I don't think it's fair to say 43 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: that New Zealand First have been in any way leading 44 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: actors a larger party, and that has been the case 45 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 3: for the last eighteen months and will be for the 46 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 3: next eighteen months. 47 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: Are you happy how the coalitions work together? 48 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think the coalition has been dangerously united. Our 49 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 3: opponents thought it would all fall. 50 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: Apart, the Coalition of chaos. 51 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 3: Well they said all those things, didn't they, But they 52 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 3: underestimated that even though we're all quite different, we're all 53 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: quite committed to trying to dig New Zealand out of 54 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: a pretty big hole. And look where the crime race, relations, 55 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 3: cost of living, the healthcare system. I mean, hell, there's 56 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 3: a lot of shoffling to do. 57 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 2: Winston Peters has ruled out working with the Chris Hepkins permanently. 58 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: What about you? Would you roll out working with Hepkins? 59 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 3: Well, the difference is I don't need to say it. Look, 60 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: I mean, this is a guy who was the Police 61 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: Minister when the crime got out of control. He was 62 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 3: in charge of the COVID response, which speaks for itself. 63 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 3: He was the Minister of Education when kids stopped going 64 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: to school on mass and he was the Minister of 65 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: Health when the health budget went up sixty percent and 66 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 3: the outcomes got worse. So you know, this guy has 67 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: got the opposite of the Midas touch I think they 68 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 3: call him a pooh midas and he's suddenly done some damage. 69 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: So you wouldn't work with him? 70 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 3: Well, no, because that would require him to be working, 71 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: and as far as I can see, he doesn't work. 72 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: Is there anyone else that you wouldn't work with that 73 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: you'd rule out working with? 74 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: I am constantly astonished that our country has a political 75 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: party that is named for a race of people that 76 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 3: cast everything in racial terms and is somehow given a 77 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 3: free pass. Funnily enough, the fact that Tiparty Maori held 78 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 3: to a lower standard, not just by other politicians, not 79 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 3: just by the media, but actually by themselves, I think 80 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: is really shameful, and we need to start working towards 81 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: a vision of New Zealand as a nation of human 82 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: beings with hopes and dreams, rather than different collectives sharing 83 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 3: common ancestry and forever divided, which seems to be their 84 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: vision of Tonga Tongua Ta Titi are different partners and 85 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: on each side of a compact. It's never worked anywhere 86 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: in the world, but it's been disastrous where it's gone wrong. 87 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: Well, speaking of the Treaty Principal's bill, I mean, I'm 88 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: sure you're sick of talking about it. 89 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: But no, no, not at all. 90 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: We haven't had you on since the bill was actually 91 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: officially voted down. Are you surprised by how much backlash 92 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: there was towards the bill over the last year. 93 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: Not at all. We took on a direction in this 94 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: country which is toxic and corrosive, but also quite profitable 95 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 3: for a lot of people. If you think about John Tamaheri, 96 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: who is behind Toyitu Teti, which is really just the 97 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: Maldi party, who makes a huge amount of money through 98 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: the ypered Aida Trust. They're a major provider. My experience 99 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: of working with him is that he believes that they 100 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: should not be accountable for what they deliver on behalf 101 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: of the taxpayer, because the treaty elevates them above accountability 102 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 3: to the crown. They're rather a partner to the crown. 103 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 3: I had this whole experience with John Tammaheadak signing up 104 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: to run a partnership school or charter school kudahodu call 105 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 3: it what you will, and then trying to renegotiate the 106 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 3: contract at the last minute for no accountability. Now, if 107 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: you're a person who believes that you basically are a 108 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 3: parallel state, that you are not accountable to the same 109 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: government and crown and taxpayer as everyone else. Then, of course, 110 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 3: when someone comes along with a treaty principal spill that says, hey, 111 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 3: guess what, folks were all equal. You don't like that 112 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: very much. And I look at some of those people 113 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: who came and gave submissions, know how many of them 114 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: are lawyers or advocates advocate casing in a world where 115 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: as a treaty partner, some people have different rights from others. 116 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: Then I come along and say, guess what, folks, everyone 117 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: has equal rights. That will get you a backlash. But 118 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, because a lot of 119 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: the opponents were covering for I guess vested interests that 120 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 3: they masqueraded as moral principle, they weren't able to put 121 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: forward convincing arguments. And you watch that debate on the 122 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 3: second reading. Yeah, we lost the vote, but we won 123 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: the argument because nobody who was against the bill said 124 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 3: the bill says X, I don't believe X, because Y, 125 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: I instead believe that New Zealand should be run according 126 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 3: to Z. You didn't hear that X, y Z. You 127 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 3: just heard lots of Haystien rhetoric. On the other hand, 128 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: the idea that Parliament has the rights to make laws, 129 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 3: that Parliament and the government have the obligation to uphold 130 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 3: all people's rights and duties, and that all people's rights 131 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 3: and duties are equal. Those three principles weren't No one 132 00:06:59,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 3: laid a glove on them. 133 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: Well, we had British philosopher ac Grailing on the podcast 134 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: a few weeks ago when he was here for the Writers' Festival. 135 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: He said, to treat people equally is not always to 136 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: treat them fairly. 137 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 4: If you had an Olympic athlete who needed five thousand 138 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 4: calories a day and you had a little old lady 139 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 4: who needed fifteen hundred calories a day, and you forced 140 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 4: them to eat the same number of calories let's say 141 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 4: three thousand calories a day each, you're unfair to both. 142 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 4: You're treating them equally, but you're unfair to both. Equity 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 4: or fairness is the goal, not just crude equality. However, 144 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 4: equality matters when it comes to what are sometimes called 145 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 4: equality of concern. So people should be treated equally before 146 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 4: the law. 147 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: Now, how would you respond to that? 148 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: Because I know that act believes the bill promises equal 149 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: rights for all new Zealanders. 150 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: But would that still be fair? 151 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: Well, I went to see Ac Grayling because I actually 152 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: quoted his book Towards the Light of Liberty in my 153 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: maiden statement to Parliament, and I was so disappointed with 154 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 3: the speech he gave his I think in the last 155 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 3: ten to fifteen years he's deteriorated from being quite a 156 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: principal person to an apologist, which is a real shame 157 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: because I quoted him in my speech first speech to Parliament. However, 158 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 3: putting him aside, it's possible to address inequities amongst people 159 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 3: without categorizing us into racial groups. I just give you 160 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: one little example. We have recently changed beow cancer screening 161 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: from sixty years old for European people and fifty years 162 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 3: old for Mara and Pacific people to just fifty eight 163 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 3: for all people. And why because the data is really 164 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 3: clear people have the same chance of contracting bowl cancer 165 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 3: for any given age, regardless of their ancestry. So not 166 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 3: only are we better targeting need because fifty nine year 167 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 3: olds and fifty eight year olds who are European and 168 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: have the same risk now gets access, we are also 169 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 3: removing the sickness of having to partition the population based 170 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: on their ancestry. I don't want that aickiness. I just 171 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: want to treat each person as a fallow human being 172 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: and deal with people based on their actual need rather 173 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:15,239 Speaker 3: than their ancestry. 174 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,079 Speaker 2: There are worse health outcomes though, for Mali and Pacifica 175 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: in certain circumstances. 176 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: Though, isn't there that is true? But you've said something 177 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: that you may not have realized. You've also said that 178 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: your preferred lens for partitioning human beings is race. Actually, 179 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 3: there are differences between rich and poor. There are differences 180 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: based on education. There are differences based on whether people 181 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: choose to spoke crites. There are differences based on dietary 182 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: There are so many different ways that you can categorize people. 183 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 3: I just reject choosing one which is quite clumsy, quite icky, 184 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 3: and doesn't actually get us to target the people in 185 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: greatest need. 186 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: If we move on to the budget twenty twenty five, now, 187 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 2: it feels like a key message from this budget was 188 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: that people need to do more for themselves. So look 189 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: at the key we saver change is that seems to 190 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: be signaling that people need to do a bit more 191 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: for themselves to save for retirement, rather than relying on 192 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 2: the government contributions. 193 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 3: Is that a fair takeaway, Well, it's probably a clarification 194 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 3: of the situation. You see before people were getting the 195 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 3: five hundred and twenty dollars, but it was all being borrowed. 196 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 3: Every extra dollar the government spends at the moment is 197 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: part of the deficit, and therefore the Debt Management Office 198 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: at the Treasury has to go out to the market 199 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: and say, will you loan us some money? Now, sure 200 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: it feels like something was being done for you because 201 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,599 Speaker 3: you were getting that five hundred and twenty dollars, but 202 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 3: also your future tax bill or money that's not available 203 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 3: for your future healthcare or some other benefit, it was 204 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: also being taken away. You may not have heard of 205 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 3: the debt Management officer, Tree's true, but that's where it 206 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: was happening. So I think what we've really done, rather 207 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 3: than saying making people more reliant on themselves, we've just 208 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 3: made it more transparent that the government cannot actually solve 209 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 3: as many problems as may have been promised under our predecessors. 210 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: The Regulatory Standards Bill is the next big bill from 211 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: the act Party. 212 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: I know, I see you grinning. This is a big 213 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: area for you. 214 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: As regulations Minister, it's going through Parliament at the moment. 215 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 2: Can you explain what it is to people who may 216 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: have only heard of it in passing? 217 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: Sure? Well, go back to our core problem. Why are 218 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: we poor? We are compared with Australia, in fact, compared 219 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 3: with most of the Pacific RIM. We are a comparatively 220 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: poor country and that hits in so many ways. Only 221 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 3: to go through them all, but it dispirits people. It's 222 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: the younger people leaving the country, and particularly when it 223 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 3: comes to housing poverty, you're being able to afford your 224 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: own place. So that isn't my view. Our big problem 225 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 3: has two basic kinds of activity. One is taxing and 226 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: spending money. So we just talked a bit about that, 227 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: and we have a pretty good system for publishing the accounts, 228 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: showing people who's responsible for what, and what results are 229 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: they getting and how much data are they taking on them. 230 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 3: You may not agree with everything the government does, but 231 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 3: it's pretty easy to find out. It's pretty easy for 232 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 3: the media to report it, pretty easy for voters to 233 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 3: make decisions if they like it or don't like it. 234 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: The other thing that the government can do, apart from 235 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: taking your money, taxing it and then spending it on stuff. 236 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: Is it can make rules for how you use the 237 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 3: property that you still own. Are you what it hasn't taxed? 238 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 3: And I would argue that power of making rules about 239 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 3: who can lend money to who, how you can run 240 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: a daycare, how you can develop your property, who can 241 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: build a water treatment plant, to build a new subdivision, 242 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: whatever it is, those rule making powers, I would argue, 243 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 3: you have a bigger effect on our long term productivity 244 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 3: and prosperity and ultimately how long we live and how 245 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: healthy and wealthy we are effect than the government spending money. 246 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: I mean, I think this government spending money is important, 247 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: but regulating your property is more important. All we're trying 248 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 3: to do with the regulatory standard spill is have a 249 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 3: similar framework where you know, if our government makes a law, 250 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 3: it's got to publish the effects of it on your property, 251 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: on your liberties, got to state what problem it was 252 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 3: trying to solve, and why I thought this was the 253 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 3: best solution. It's really just making sure that voters can 254 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: start to get a handle on the impact of regulation 255 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: as easily as they can on spending. 256 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 2: So how much would the build cost per anim across 257 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 2: an estimated twenty years. I'm sure you saw that reporting 258 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: from the Herald last week. It said that it was 259 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: twenty million per anim what of officials that the Ministry 260 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: of Regulation actually said, well, that's true. 261 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 3: I mean that's from the Ministry for Regulations analysis. If 262 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: you start making the bureaucracy analyze the rules that it's 263 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 3: pushing on people, it'll cost twenty million to do it. 264 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 3: And then the criticism has been well, what will the 265 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 3: benefits of that be? And the truth is, it's very 266 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: hard to calculate, but we know that the benefits are 267 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 3: going to be much greater than the cost for the 268 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: simple reason that if it's going to cost this much 269 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: money just for the bureaucracy to write up and monitor 270 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 3: the rules it's making, imagine the cost of all the 271 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 3: poor buggers out there that have to follow the rules. 272 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 2: Are there many jobs that are going to be like 273 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: I can imagine that a lot of consultancy firms and 274 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: everything like that making pretty big bank over these kind 275 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 2: of regulatory changes. 276 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: Well, I'll just give you one example. I mean that 277 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: the estimate of the town planning industry is one point 278 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 3: three billion dollars a year, So to put that in perspective, 279 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: that's sixty five times the twenty million we just talked 280 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 3: about just in one area, which is resource management. That 281 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 3: the cost of this red tape and regulation is enormous, 282 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: but that's actually a tiny portion of the overall cost 283 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: the real cost of that urban planning industry, and my 284 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 3: view is not for the cost for the projects that 285 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: go ahead. It's the projects that don't go ahead. And 286 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: when pros don't go ahead, there's less supply of housing, 287 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: and when there's less supply, the price goes up for 288 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: what remains. And so the real cost to a younger 289 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: generation of New Zealanders of bad regulation and land use 290 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 3: development make it more expensive to put in place of 291 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: water treatment plant, et cetera, is incalculable. So anything we 292 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: can do to get some transparency around regulation making I 293 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: believe we'll have a major payoff, just basically getting the 294 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 3: country's mojo back and making a few things, especially housing, 295 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: more affordable. 296 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 5: I think, you know, I think New Zealand is a 297 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 5: right to be concerned that democracy will be under threat. 298 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 5: David Seymour's Deputy Prime Ministy doesn't it, ever, so he 299 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 5: doesn't have any respect for basic democratic norms, doesn't have 300 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 5: any respect for the idea that people should ever say 301 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 5: on the law changes that affect them. This government seems 302 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 5: to think that everything can be passed through with no scrutiny, 303 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 5: you know, just ram it through under agency and hope 304 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: no one notices. Like cutting the future paychecks of women 305 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 5: who have been claiming pay equity, pushed that through hope 306 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 5: no one notices. And David Seymour is right at the 307 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 5: heart of that, as regulatory rules should apply to everybody 308 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 5: else except for him. Almost everything he does seems to 309 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 5: be exempt from the high principles that he seems to 310 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 5: espouse for other people. 311 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 2: Do you ever feel like people have just got it 312 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: in for you because you read comments online? I mean, 313 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: you go to a comedy show, you talk to people 314 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: in the street, and it feels like a lot of 315 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: people are blaming you personally for a lot of tension 316 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: that the government faces. 317 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: What do you reckon about that? 318 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: Yeah? I get that. I think there's a couple of 319 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 3: reasons for it. One is that a lot of what 320 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: AX proposes is for the government to do less, and 321 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: people assume that if we want the government to do less, 322 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: it's because we disagree with underlying intention. So, for example, 323 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: I look at a minimum wage. I want everyone to 324 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 3: be rich. I want everyone to be paid more. I 325 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: just happen to think that the government making a law 326 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 3: saying people have to be paid more is silly. It 327 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: can't really work. If it did work, we'd make it 328 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 3: much higher, but it's just kind of a pantomime. We 329 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: make it about as high as we can without too 330 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: many people getting priced out of having a job at all. 331 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 3: So I think it's a silly law. Then people say, oh, well, 332 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 3: David Seama obviously wants poor people to be paid less. No, 333 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 3: I don't. I just don't think that the solution that 334 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 3: people have cu up with is a very good one. 335 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 3: But people mix it up with the intention simply healthy homes. 336 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: You know. 337 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 3: I know of people who have homes that they could 338 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: be renting out where a person could live, but doesn't. 339 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 3: It's been made illegal to rent it out. They've looked 340 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: at the cost of upgrading it to healthy homes, that 341 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: they're not doing it, and as a result, people are 342 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 3: actually missing out. So I think healthy homes are silly. 343 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: I think people want to go to renovate their homes 344 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 3: as much as they can afford, and when they can 345 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 3: afford to do it, better, they'll do some more. Why 346 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: make a law? But people say, oh, well, David Seymour wants, 347 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: you know, people to live in drafting No. I don't 348 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: want people to live in drafting homes. I just think 349 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 3: the solution. So I think it's a big part of 350 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: the problems because we're often opposed to the government's solution. 351 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 3: People think we're opposed to the intention. I think the 352 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 3: other reason is that I don't do conformity. I unashamably 353 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 3: o me. I'm quirky, I am going to I believe 354 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: I have a good heart and I work hard, but 355 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: I'm going to be myself and I'm not going to apologize. 356 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 3: And I think in New Zealand, you know, that's a 357 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 3: dangerous way to be because sometimes one of the things 358 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 3: I don't like so much about our culture, which I 359 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 3: mostly love, is that we tend to value conformity over truth. 360 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 3: And I don't do conformity for the sake of it. Plus, 361 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: as a bonus, I'm actually providing a huge public service 362 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 3: because I am providing the left and the losers and 363 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 3: many in the media, and sometimes I repeat myself with 364 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 3: something they desperately need after their election loss, and that 365 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: is someone to blame. You're welcome And. 366 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: Finally, David, you're going to be Deputy PM. As we 367 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: head into the next election, are you in planning more 368 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: for twenty twenty six yet? 369 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: Well both, I mean you start planning for the next 370 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: election a day after the election. That's just the reality 371 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 3: of what they call the continuous campaign. However, it's also 372 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: true that take the job really seriously. Are going to 373 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 3: be a good deputy for christ and for New Zealand. 374 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 3: And I think one of the best things I can 375 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: do for the next election as show people that if 376 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 3: you like X ideas, you also have competent operators that 377 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 3: you can work with. 378 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, David. 379 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: Thank you. 380 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 381 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 382 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 2: at enzdherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 383 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 384 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: our sound engineer. 385 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 386 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 387 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 388 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.