1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: The government wants to change the law to strengthen freedom 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: of speech at universities. Proposed changes will mean that universities 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: won't be allowed to adopt positions on issues that don't 4 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: directly relate to their core functions, and they will each 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: be required to provide a freedom of speech statement and 6 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: report annually on their commitments the Tertorary Education and Skills 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: Misters Penny Simmons, Minister, Hello, Hello, how are you good? 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: Thank you? Do you think university at the moment are 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: universities restricting freedom of speech? 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 2: Well, look, they have an obligation for academic freedom, to 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: promote academic freedom for their staff and students, and freedom 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 2: of speech is really closely linked to that, and so 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: we think perhaps that they have been little risk adverse 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 2: over the last few years in terms of canceling some 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: things that might be considered controversial, and so this is 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 2: just making it really clear. It will be a change 17 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: of legislation, a change of Education and Training Act twenty 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: twenty to ensure that one they've got policy and procedures 19 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 2: around ensuring that they not only allow but promote freedom 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: of speech, but also then some requirements about having to 21 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: record complaints and be transparent about any complaints they might. 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: Okay, what can you give me an example, What is 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: an example of an example where they have restricted freedom 24 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: of speech? 25 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: Look, I think there's been a few over the last 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: few years. Are probably the dom Brash one was an 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: obvious one from Massy. See. 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: The thing is with these ones, Penny, that they always 29 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: say it's safety. It's a risk to people's safety if 30 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: we invite these people on. So are you asking them 31 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: to override their safety concerns in the name of freedom 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: of speech. 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: Look, I think how safety has perhaps been used a 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: little bit too liberally as a reason why not to 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: have people. And we're certainly not overriding the ability for 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: a university to be able to charge if there are 37 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: entities that are coming that may require additional security or 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: additional costs to the university, we would certainly expect that 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: they should be able to be charged. 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: Because the thing is that, I mean, let's face that 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: they're all largely a bunch of lefties, and they don't 42 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: like often don't like hearing controversial opinions, and so they 43 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: just say no and then they hide behind the safety thing. 44 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: Is that what you think's happening? 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: Well, Look, the trouble is it impacts on the academic 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: freedom for staff as well, because once you start canceling 47 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: that anything in terms of freedom of speech, diverse opinions, 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: and the ability to robustly debate, then you're putting real 49 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: pressure on academic free in terms of being able to 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: express an opinion that might be counter to what the 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 2: majority have. And so we've seen a number of surveys 52 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: done on staff and students in universities recently where they 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: say they don't feel safe to come up with a 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,119 Speaker 2: alternative view opinion. Yes, and that's not good. 55 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: I think most people will say, yeah, this looks reasonable. 56 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: One thing that I don't think is reasonable is you're 57 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: going to stop universities from adopting positions on issues that 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: don't directly relate to their call role or function. Is 59 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: that not in trying to encourage freedom of speech, you're 60 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: almost stifling theirs. Why do that? 61 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: Well? No, again, quite the opposite, Ryan, because once a 62 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: university takes a stance on a matter that isn't it 63 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: isn't aligned with the call business. If you're an agricultural university, 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: then of course you should have opinions on different things 65 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: to do with agriculture or engineering or something. But if 66 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: you take an opinion, if a university takes a stance 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: rather than being neutral on things that are nothing to 68 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: do with them, then all of a sudden you prevent 69 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: staff with a differing opinion from men garba to say 70 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 2: anything like what. 71 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? Because universities teach all sorts 72 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: of things that they could have an opinion that theoretically on. 73 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: Anything, Well, you would hope that some of the worldwide 74 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: geopolitical things, it might be sensible for them to take 75 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: a stance. Well, they might well have students and wide 76 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: a far nol that come from either side of the debate, 77 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: and so I think that then, and they might have staff. 78 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: So all of a sudden you're down. 79 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: But minister, if you're a university and you're you know, 80 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: you have an international relations class, you're saying the university 81 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: cannot have a position on the Gaza war. 82 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: We're saying that individual staff might want to have a 83 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 2: position on it, but the university as a whole shouldn't, 84 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: because then that shuts down any of the individual staff. 85 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: So we not want to have a counter opinion. 86 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: Here's a shorter list. What can a university have an 87 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: opinion on them. 88 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: Look, we're not going to dictate that. If they can 89 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: justify that they should have an opinion on it, then 90 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: that's up to them. And again it's not. 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: Teaching international relations. And you're not allowed to have an 92 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: opinion on the war in Gaza, then I don't understand 93 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: what is your core business? 94 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: Do you mean? 95 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: Basically, you can have an opinion on the running of 96 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: a university and that's about it. 97 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: No. No, the staff that are teaching on that might 98 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: well have, as part of their academic freedom, an opinion 99 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: on some geopolitical situation, but the university as a whole 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: should not. 101 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: Penny, thank you very much for your time. That's Penny Simmons, 102 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: Tertory Education and Skills Minister. For more from Hither Duplessy 103 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: Allen Drive, listen live to news talks it'd be from 104 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.