Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news Talks EDB. Follow
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Speaker 1: Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
Speaker 1: with Elliot Smith powered by news talks ITB.
Speaker 2: Welcome in to Rugby Direct powered by Fourklift Solutions, lifting
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Speaker 2: week where we were rested and rotated out of the
Speaker 2: podcast line up, Liam, we are back, refreshed and ready
Speaker 2: to go and there is plenty to dig into in
Speaker 2: the rugby world. As always, Greetings once again.
Speaker 3: Greetings, yes, and congratulations are in order for the elliotts
Speaker 3: Smith family. Yes, your sister a new addition to the world.
Speaker 3: Congratulations on being an uncle to young Imagen. So it
Speaker 3: must have been a special occasion and crush church very special.
Speaker 2: Yes, lovely to meet me Imagen and very very exciting
Speaker 2: times for us. So it's been a pretty special week.
Speaker 2: So good to having you podcast listener as well. I'm
Speaker 2: sure it's Jesus to get them young and on the
Speaker 2: podcast train with rag the Direct.
Speaker 3: Look, there's Rugby Direct fans mini populated out in the community.
Speaker 3: I was at a birthday party over the weekend Japanese theme.
Speaker 3: There were summer wrestling Tipanyaki and met some fans of
Speaker 3: the Pods. Shout out to Miles Andrews. Unfortunately he's another
Speaker 3: christ Church bloke. He attended the Razor did a fundraiser
Speaker 3: at the Summer Rugby Club which she attended and turned
Speaker 3: up to this party as a karate kid and we
Speaker 3: just happened to be in the same outfit and he
Speaker 3: was telling me what a fan is of the Pod, So, oh,
Speaker 3: they just can't get away from it, mate, There's fans everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe Scott Robinson did do that thing in Sumner.
Speaker 2: A good friend of mine, Daniel Bell, was doing them singh.
Speaker 2: So I'm intrigued to hear what raisors thoughts were on that.
Speaker 2: But well, a week you going out, Razor selected his
Speaker 2: all Blacks and all Blacks of Fiends squads and a
Speaker 2: little bit from his selectors and clad McMillan in the
Speaker 2: as well. I guess it's been a week you've had
Speaker 2: the chance to let it soak him. What were the
Speaker 2: takeaways for you from that all black squad?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess probably one of the most predictable Northern
Speaker 3: tour squads in history. There weren't a lot of headline
Speaker 3: takeaways were there. Cam Ruga great to see him back
Speaker 3: and well first of all to come back and what
Speaker 3: an impression he's made straight off the back. Came off
Speaker 3: the bench for Counties, scored two tries, one with a
Speaker 3: trademark dummy and then started last weekend and Wellington as
Speaker 3: Counties lost their quarter final. So the one change to
Speaker 3: the squads, I.
Speaker 4: Wrote something for the Heralds last week.
Speaker 3: My hope was that that squad would be more picked
Speaker 3: with developments, not necessarily front and center, but more more
Speaker 3: of casting ahead to the future. Guys like Peter Luckeye
Speaker 3: I wanted to see in that squads. No hope them
Speaker 3: I would have had in there over TJ. Peanara, but
Speaker 3: Rays has been very consistent and conservative for me in
Speaker 3: terms of maintaining that level of experience and carrying guys
Speaker 3: as long as he wants, and I guess it probably
Speaker 3: reflects that he's feeling the heat that doesn't he because
Speaker 3: it is going to be a very grueling stretch this
Speaker 3: India tour, the England's, France and Ireland those three tests
Speaker 3: and fifteen days currently six and three, so there's no
Speaker 3: regal room in terms of results, and for me, that
Speaker 3: squad really did reflect the fact he's feeling that the
Speaker 3: heats in his first year as head coached.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think he feels he's got the rope
Speaker 2: to be able to bring out at Peter Luckeye, or
Speaker 2: to be able to bring in some younger players and
Speaker 2: get them on the road to twenty twenty seven. It's
Speaker 2: focused on the here and now and winning these test matches.
Speaker 2: And you know, we'll probably touch on it a wee
Speaker 2: bit later. But the French, with the sounding that they
Speaker 2: won't send a top squad down to New Zealand next year,
Speaker 2: perhaps gives them the opportunity to bring in some of
Speaker 2: those players next year, perhaps earlier than they may have considered.
Speaker 2: So maybe they're sort of balancing those two things out.
Speaker 2: But I just don't think there's the rope there to
Speaker 2: be tinkering with too many selections. And I think you're right,
Speaker 2: there is the pressure that comes with the All Blacks
Speaker 2: job and the pressure that with having three losses already
Speaker 2: in this tenure is feeling. So I don't think it
Speaker 2: was a surprise that there weren't many changes. Peter luck
Speaker 2: I said, a good season for Wellington before that the Hurricanes.
Speaker 2: He could have been a player that comes in, but
Speaker 2: I just don't think there was too much room to
Speaker 2: bring in too many other players. And that's where I
Speaker 2: suppose you look at the All Blacks fifteen and go, well,
Speaker 2: if there's injuries, these are the players that are going
Speaker 2: to be called in, and the All Blacks fifteen squad
Speaker 2: with a wee bit of a nod to the future,
Speaker 2: but at times also a look back as well. You know,
Speaker 2: Ricky Ricketteally is somehow not in the top six hookers
Speaker 2: in the country, which is stagger and you go, okay, well,
Speaker 2: maybe they're looking to the future. But then Kurt Eckland,
Speaker 2: who's older than Rocky Rittelly, is in the squad. They
Speaker 2: gone with you. Bridie McCallister out of the Crusader's Bradley
Speaker 2: Slater out of Tartanaki, Rocky Rocketell he's Taranaki teammate as well,
Speaker 2: So there are some eyebrow raising selections there as well.
Speaker 2: But if you're Ricky Ricottelly, you're probably going, well, how
Speaker 2: am I not in the top six sockers in the
Speaker 2: country when I started for the Super Rugby Champions.
Speaker 4: That's it.
Speaker 3: And Eklund on the bench for the whole of the
Speaker 3: Blues championship. The Blues lineout was by far and away
Speaker 3: the best in the competition. I think it was eighty
Speaker 3: nine percent this year. You know, he's not a damaging
Speaker 3: ball carrier by any stretcher, Ricktell. He probably lacks a
Speaker 3: bit of punch with ball in hands, but he's busy.
Speaker 3: His lineout throwing is very effective, and that is an
Speaker 3: area of concern for the All Blacks. Behind Cody Taylor,
Speaker 3: George Bell and Asafa Armore not noted lineout throwers, and
Speaker 3: yeah behind them, I think Bradley Slater deputizes for Rica
Speaker 3: Telly in Tartanucky, so that was one very perplexing selection.
Speaker 3: Other guys that are unlucky to miss the cat Braden
Speaker 3: Yossi very good for the Hurricanes this year and has
Speaker 3: performed well for a struggling mun Or two falal Fuckatava.
Speaker 3: The aor Blecks fifteen only have two half backs. He's
Speaker 3: gone backwards in quite a big way, but I thought
Speaker 3: has actually performed quite well for Hawk's Bay this year
Speaker 3: and then the midfield to a degree as well. Daniel
Speaker 3: Rohn has been very good for Taranuki but look, I
Speaker 3: think it's fair to say that the All Blacks coaching
Speaker 3: team raiser largely packed the All Blacks fifteen, and that's
Speaker 3: what you'd expect, And I am intrigued to see how
Speaker 3: those squads interact, how many players shift in between those
Speaker 3: two teams, and probably what effect that has on the
Speaker 3: or Blecks fifteen more than anything, because the All Blacks
Speaker 3: of name thirty six players coming and going can be
Speaker 3: a bit destabilizing, particularly when you're only going to be
Speaker 3: in You're only playing two matches with the All Blacks fifteen.
Speaker 3: So just how many of those players go to Japan
Speaker 3: and get mixed and match throughout that tour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, that's the interesting thing. And what chances they get.
Speaker 2: It's obviously only two games, so you'd suspect that everyone's
Speaker 2: probably going to get one start. Maybe if you look
Speaker 2: at that, perhaps apart from the props and hookers in
Speaker 2: front rows, they're probably likely to mix and match some
Speaker 2: of those selections for the Monster game and the Georgia game.
Speaker 2: No Jacob brother my Tovurki Neepkins question whether he would
Speaker 2: have hopefully been there. I think he's been very very
Speaker 2: good for Taranaki this year before he suffered that neck injury,
Speaker 2: which sounds pretty serious and lucky it was caught as
Speaker 2: well by the doctors. After that ran fairly shield challenge
Speaker 2: against Tasman the week prior. He missed out on the squad,
Speaker 2: but we don't know whether he would have been in there,
Speaker 2: Shawn Stevenson. The drums are beating. It's you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of rumors going around at the moment that he's
Speaker 2: Warriors bound in twenty twenty five. This could be his
Speaker 2: last hourrah in rugby union as well. Nothing confirmed on
Speaker 2: that front as well, But it's an intriguing squad because
Speaker 2: the mixed match of players of youth I said before,
Speaker 2: but also some of those players that have been in
Speaker 2: the All Blacks in modern adawa and then come out
Speaker 2: of it again, you know Dallas McLeod in last year
Speaker 2: out again. So Brandon also can consider himself very very unlucky.
Speaker 2: But there is a lot of depth at loose Ford
Speaker 2: at the moment as a whole, not necessarily in specific jusies,
Speaker 2: but I think if you go look at the loose
Speaker 2: Ford stocks that are pretty deep in New Zealand rugby
Speaker 2: at the moment, and some of that Braden you'll say
Speaker 2: has missed out in Hoskin. So Tutu, who I don't know,
Speaker 2: has actually had a great MPC. In all honesty is
Speaker 2: has made the cart and you know there's a lot
Speaker 2: of questions around that too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Hoskins too.
Speaker 3: A lot of talk about him, isn't there with a
Speaker 3: kid at Iwana putting up his Instagram posts saying basically
Speaker 3: should deflict to England's and look that the avenue is
Speaker 3: open to him. He hasn't played for the All Blacks
Speaker 3: now for what two years, and so could very well
Speaker 3: be eligible for England or feed you down the line.
Speaker 3: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the
Speaker 3: All Blacks fifteen is not a capture team now, so
Speaker 3: it doesn't affect his eligibility. It's a wee bit of
Speaker 3: a step forward for Hoskins making this team because he
Speaker 3: didn't last year the All Blacks fifteen. But I really
Speaker 3: don't see him cracking that All Blacks team anytime soon.
Speaker 3: From the conversations I've had behind the scenes, I think
Speaker 3: they the All Blecks haven't been impressed like you with
Speaker 3: what he's done during the NPC, and they wanted to
Speaker 3: see more of the feedback around what he does off
Speaker 3: the ball has worked great despite being the Super Rugby
Speaker 3: MVP this year. So a step forward and making this team,
Speaker 3: but I don't think it's going to enough be enough
Speaker 3: to keep him and his on rugby. Just a couple
Speaker 3: of other quick points there. Kenny Naholo really rewarded for form.
Speaker 3: He's been in great touch for Tartanuki, very consistent, strong
Speaker 3: over the ball, big presence in the finishing department and
Speaker 3: Josh Jacob very much the future at number ten.
Speaker 4: He is tough man.
Speaker 3: He took so much punishment at the weekend for Tartanuki
Speaker 3: when they went down Ta Wakato in their quarter final.
Speaker 4: Was battered, he was bloodied.
Speaker 3: He challenges the line and he's probably gone up or
Speaker 3: rung with Bret Cameron's injury. Potentially but very interesting prospect.
Speaker 3: Josh Jacob. My understanding was the Crusaders approached him and
Speaker 3: he turned them down, which is interesting because he you'd
Speaker 3: think he would have gone straight in to start there.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely the talent that he shone last year in
Speaker 2: the NBC in twenty twenty three, but then has built
Speaker 2: on that in twenty twenty four. I guess the big
Speaker 2: challenge it's a big step up from in PC. Didn't
Speaker 2: get a lot of opportunities at super rugby level this year,
Speaker 2: but to go to attract the All Blacks League this
Speaker 2: election on basically on the basis of MPC form and
Speaker 2: go right, we want to see you in an All
Speaker 2: Blacks fifteen environment playing months to playing Georgia, I think
Speaker 2: is a big statement about where they see him and
Speaker 2: what kind of path they see potentially for him in
Speaker 2: higher honors. The question I was, as you said, turn
Speaker 2: down the Crusaders, he's at the Chiefs. How much game
Speaker 2: time are you going to get behind Damian McKenzie in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. That's the real question because he could
Speaker 2: just be relegated to the bench again unless they change
Speaker 2: things around and Clayton Millan, who's going to be coaching him,
Speaker 2: and there's All Blacks fifteen and goes all right, well
Speaker 2: Damien you're back to fifteen and Josh Jacom you're playing ten.
Speaker 3: It was a very interesting scenario. We're going to touch
Speaker 3: on a later around Brick Cameron. But the New Zealand
Speaker 3: first five eight stocks compressed and two franchises, the Chiefs
Speaker 3: and the Blues. So the Chiefs have McKenzie. Caleb Trusk
Speaker 3: has come back playing well for the plenty of this
Speaker 3: year and Josh Jacob so he's by no means Jacob
Speaker 3: A Locke as the even the secondary playmaker at the Chiefs.
Speaker 3: But I don't know, I knows the young father, so
Speaker 3: maybe that played into his thinking in.
Speaker 2: Terms of he's got a second on the wor I
Speaker 2: think as well.
Speaker 3: Being close to home and the neck and it is
Speaker 3: a great story. He's a guy that's genuinely emerged from
Speaker 3: grass roots. He could have gone to taking a chance,
Speaker 3: gone to christ Church as a starting playmaker. But as
Speaker 3: we've discussed on this pod many times, Richie Muonger odds
Speaker 3: on to potentially come home potentially for the All Blacks
Speaker 3: next year, maybe.
Speaker 4: The Crusaders the year after.
Speaker 3: Where does that lead McKenzie unsure so, but from if
Speaker 3: you take a step back from a wider context than
Speaker 3: Super Rugby, the Blues, Stephen Peterfeitzter, Harry plum Boden, Barrett's
Speaker 3: Zan Sullivan, they are stacked and so are the Chiefs
Speaker 3: and the Crusaders. Hilanders and Canes are scrapping for playmakers.
Speaker 3: So everyone would love to get their hands on Josh Jacob.
Speaker 2: In an ideal scenario, you'd have them spread out across
Speaker 2: the five franchises and they're playing off every week against
Speaker 2: each other. I mean, the Crusaders are in back the
Speaker 2: time they had Mertons and Major and Carter and whoever else,
Speaker 2: stayed about five of them and they're all playing various
Speaker 2: positions in the back line.
Speaker 4: Come off the bench coinslated to go to the Landers.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean it's happened before. You'd love to
Speaker 2: see it perhaps spread around it and then you genuinely
Speaker 2: get to see those players. I mean of draft format
Speaker 2: or something similar might enable that, but it's not the
Speaker 2: contract system we have at the moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's probably time we had a conversation about
Speaker 3: a genuine super rugby salary cap, because there is one,
Speaker 3: but it is deemed irrelevant when teams like the Blues
Speaker 3: have such superior finance backing and they can put massive
Speaker 3: third party payment options in front of players that distort
Speaker 3: things massively and leave other franchises they can't compete. So
Speaker 3: the NRL that as a real success that the talent
Speaker 3: has to spread. You look at the Panthers, they won
Speaker 3: a title and every year some of their biggest superstars
Speaker 3: have to go elsewhere because they can't allfer under the cap.
Speaker 3: Jerome Leuey is going next year, so super raguey salary
Speaker 3: cap doesn't really work. And until that is looked at,
Speaker 3: you are going to have these pockets of depth within
Speaker 3: the franchises and other ones missing out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be honest, I think they should go back
Speaker 2: to the days of the protected draft where you and
Speaker 2: it's different now because it doesn't feed in from the
Speaker 2: provincial unions like they used to, but you could protect
Speaker 2: x number of players from your provincial catchment area and
Speaker 2: then all those other players went back into a pool
Speaker 2: and could be moved out to the other five franchises,
Speaker 2: and the squads are bigger now. The contracting systems different.
Speaker 2: You're contracted directly via the Super Ugby franchises, not the
Speaker 2: provincial unions. But that would level the playing field quite considerable.
Speaker 2: If you could, say, protect twenty eight players from your
Speaker 2: catchment area or whatever it might be, and then everyone
Speaker 2: else is up for grabs. That would make some tricky
Speaker 2: decisions and it would mean players would be more likely
Speaker 2: to move around for opportunities. But again, this is not
Speaker 2: the contracting system we have and it's not the world
Speaker 2: we live in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 4: No it's not.
Speaker 3: But things change and we have to get the new
Speaker 3: Super Rugby boss on closer to the season and put
Speaker 3: them under the girl.
Speaker 2: I used to love the draft and finding out who
Speaker 2: had gone where, and you know whiching PC players had
Speaker 2: suddenly moved to various other parts of the country. Right,
Speaker 2: let's move on. We'll get to the NPC shortly. But
Speaker 2: the Black Ferns have finished their campaign for season twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four w XV with a winover France off the
Speaker 2: back of a lost to England, lost to Ireland and
Speaker 2: the WXV then a prior loss to England at Twickenham
Speaker 2: as well a good win to end the season. Again.
Speaker 2: It's a tough French team that had won five of
Speaker 2: the last six against New Zealand. But I guess there's
Speaker 2: a lot of questions around this team where they are
Speaker 2: at ten months out from a Rugby World Cup in
Speaker 2: England next year. Now, England were pushed pretty hard by
Speaker 2: Canada and that final yesterday and Canada had to lead
Speaker 2: in the second spell. But I think on most days
Speaker 2: England's to be honest, fifteen to twenty points better than
Speaker 2: most other teams in world rugby at the moment and
Speaker 2: women's rugby, but still New Zealand need to close that
Speaker 2: gap if it all possible to mount our World Cup
Speaker 2: surge for next year. So what have you seen out
Speaker 2: of the Black Funds, out of this tournament and where
Speaker 2: do you think they're at ten months out from next
Speaker 2: year's World Cup.
Speaker 3: It's a tricky question that I think this tournaments is
Speaker 3: a line in the sand about where they are and
Speaker 3: it has been a disappointment. It was good finish the
Speaker 3: second half in particular, they came over the top of
Speaker 3: the French and rarely put them to the So.
Speaker 4: They are very committed to.
Speaker 3: The Wayne Smith type blueprint of using the ball attacking
Speaker 3: and that comes with a lot of risk and reward.
Speaker 3: I think they can score a lot of points, but
Speaker 3: defensively there are some real concerns there. I think they
Speaker 3: conceded was it seven tries against England and you're never
Speaker 3: going to win a Test match conceding that many points,
Speaker 3: so that's one massive area of improvement. I think they
Speaker 3: finished fourth with a one one to win two loss record,
Speaker 3: lost to Ireland for the first time, who improved massively,
Speaker 3: so women's rugby on the whole was probably getting more competitive.
Speaker 3: Ireland the big movers there Canada, as you mentioned, pushed
Speaker 3: England who have won I think twenty games in succession now,
Speaker 3: so they are the standard bearers. But it's a massive
Speaker 3: challenge for the Black Ferns to improve now because I
Speaker 3: think they did improve and this level of opposition is
Speaker 3: so important and their lead into the World Cup now
Speaker 3: is you don't get that same quality of opponents. They
Speaker 3: come back, they play alpacky and then I think it's
Speaker 3: into the pack for and really your strongest competition there
Speaker 3: is Canada. And so you're not going to play England
Speaker 3: again before the World Cup, You're not going to play
Speaker 3: France who probably come back to the pack a bit.
Speaker 3: And so how much are they going to improve in
Speaker 3: that next ten months.
Speaker 2: There's not a lot of time is there they'll play
Speaker 2: obviously you'd think of Lauri or Rder. Game's Australia who
Speaker 2: have improved. Actually they won WX two and look to
Speaker 2: be improving under their coach Joe Yap but there's still
Speaker 2: you would think a big gulf between New Zealand and Australia.
Speaker 2: Having never lost to the Willa Rus I think there's
Speaker 2: still some selection issues around this team. They don't quite
Speaker 2: know the best mix in crucial positions or big best
Speaker 2: selections in crucial positions. I thought that the Atana will
Speaker 2: hire a half back. Yesterday was very very good. My
Speaker 2: Joseph struggled a little bit against the preciure that England
Speaker 2: and Ireland put on her in consecutive weeks. I'm not
Speaker 2: sold on Hannah King as a test number ten. You've
Speaker 2: got the world former World Player of the Year, really
Speaker 2: heye demand playing twelve. I'd move her into ten. There's
Speaker 2: you know, some other players around midfield that you could
Speaker 2: change around Amy to see, hopefully back from concussion and
Speaker 2: some other tweaks. The I's don't think they've got that
Speaker 2: right playmaking max nineteen and twelve at the moment to
Speaker 2: be able to attack wings. Very very good. Caitlin Vahaklos
Speaker 2: had a storming season a shea letier and great to
Speaker 2: see her back loose. Forwards I think are up there
Speaker 2: with some of the best in the world. Very very
Speaker 2: fast attacking players. Front row not too bad. Would be
Speaker 2: better to have some more depth in the props. I
Speaker 2: think so there are, but there are key positions and
Speaker 2: I think it's if you can sort out that nineteen
Speaker 2: and twelve and get confidence in your playmaking access around
Speaker 2: that point in the game, then they'll take another step forward.
Speaker 2: But I think that op key competition is canna be
Speaker 2: very very interesting around that.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a great point.
Speaker 3: The inexperience in the halves isn't it's it's such a
Speaker 3: massive step up from Alpaky to the test arena, particularly
Speaker 3: against the lights of England and Canada, and you only
Speaker 3: learn by doing, and so that those will be valuable experiences.
Speaker 3: But yeah, ro had to demand still hugely influential from twelve.
Speaker 3: Sylvia Brunt just absolutely exceptional talent. Saw somebody call her
Speaker 3: you know, you don't have to make comparisons, but people
Speaker 3: do ineably do that, you know, the mananu of the
Speaker 3: of the of the woman's game. She's a phenomenal talent.
Speaker 3: I was still only in her early twenties. But you're right,
Speaker 3: they need to sort out that halves access and probably
Speaker 3: commit to a couple of players pick and stick, give
Speaker 3: them the next ten months to develop, because so important
Speaker 3: to get those that access right.
Speaker 2: And certainly is and Opaky forms a very very interesting
Speaker 2: part of the selections next year as well. With that
Speaker 2: on the line NPC semifinals sets and a couple of upsets.
Speaker 2: How good Canterbury back from the deads two weeks ago
Speaker 2: lost to Harbor by sixty points. Now out revenge on
Speaker 2: little brother Tasman. How good is that with a very
Speaker 2: good performance from Canterbury. Didn't see it coming, thought they
Speaker 2: might have been able to get the wind just given
Speaker 2: Tasman's got a few injuries. Even black Head are out injured,
Speaker 2: so questioned there around the All Blacks for him potentially
Speaker 2: in the Crusaders. Canterbury had some players back from the
Speaker 2: Crusaders but also from the All Blacks as well, so
Speaker 2: good win for them. Taranaki maybe a bit of Ranfillly
Speaker 2: shield hangover there on Saturday night against Wakatto. But look,
Speaker 2: a couple of upsets, which is what you want from
Speaker 2: the NPC quarter finals unless you're the top set of texts.
Speaker 3: Look, I think this has been a fantastic competition this
Speaker 3: year and we will touch on it later in terms
Speaker 3: of the rules, but just the style of rugby that
Speaker 3: the use of the ball, the pace, the intense the
Speaker 3: unpredictability of it. It really has been exceptional to watch.
Speaker 3: So that's the first point. The second is that the
Speaker 3: returning All Blacks have had a massive impact.
Speaker 4: Canterbury were hugely impressive.
Speaker 3: The guys that made a massive difference with them Sun
Speaker 3: to a degree where Fletch Newell came back because the
Speaker 3: Canterbury front row had struggled scrum time, George Bell, Sam Dowry.
Speaker 3: Those All Blacks came back and had a big impact.
Speaker 3: But I don't know whether the All Blacks will be
Speaker 3: available this weekend. Most of them will travel this week
Speaker 3: to go to Japan, so it's gonna be interesting to
Speaker 3: see what teams come out next weekend and other guys.
Speaker 3: Luke Jacobson was huge for Wakato both defensively and at
Speaker 3: the breakdown and their upset of Tartanaki. So it is
Speaker 3: really telling to see those All Blacks come back effectively
Speaker 3: two rungs down from from Test footy and you know,
Speaker 3: really assert their authority. But yeah, I think the renfoody
Speaker 3: shield hangovers were real for Tasman and Taranaki and it
Speaker 3: sets up to mighty cought semi finals this weekend with
Speaker 3: the bop our Man Mark Kelly will be storming around
Speaker 3: in his jersey as they take on your beloveds Canterbury
Speaker 3: and oh sorry our Wellington.
Speaker 2: Sorry yeah, our.
Speaker 3: Wellington prior place yeap hosts Wato. So very intriguing semi finals.
Speaker 2: They are, indeed, Yeah, and good news for Plenty. They
Speaker 2: win the Battle of the Bay for the years, so
Speaker 2: they get to call themselves the real Bay for another
Speaker 2: twelve months. I think that's right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it. So we're gonna have to get who's
Speaker 3: gonna win those semis? What's the final?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was asked about this when I did head
Speaker 2: on the Country spot break. It depends on the teams rarely,
Speaker 2: because we don't think you all blacks are going to play,
Speaker 2: which would hurt can to bring and it would hurt
Speaker 2: White Katso and it would hurt Wellington as well with
Speaker 2: Ti Japetan AA Billy Proctor, so it really does change
Speaker 2: things around. I'm going to give it to the basis
Speaker 2: of the home teams, probably Wellington Bay Plenty final, but
Speaker 2: I don't think there's much an either semi final at
Speaker 2: this point in time. I'm just going to give to
Speaker 2: the home teams on the basis of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think look, if Canterbury can play like they
Speaker 3: did last weekend, they will be incredibly difficult to stop.
Speaker 3: Just we shout out to Billy Harmon. Wow, what a
Speaker 3: performance and what a loss he is going to be
Speaker 3: to New Zealand Rugby. He was phenomenal, ball in hand, defense, breakdown,
Speaker 3: just relentless and huge loss for the Highlanders.
Speaker 4: For Canterbury, he's going to Japan.
Speaker 3: He's a guy that's been on the cusp of the
Speaker 3: All Blacks for a number of years and you spoke
Speaker 3: about the loose for depth, but him and Brandon Ian
Speaker 3: all were really good.
Speaker 2: I was actually thinking that yesterday when I was watching
Speaker 2: that game that in an era when you've got players
Speaker 2: that have played a lot of one off tests for
Speaker 2: the All Blacks through necessity and various things, that the
Speaker 2: fact that Billy Harmon never got an All Blacks cap.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was his class, he was there in
Speaker 2: the tour in twenty twenty two. Is you know, it's
Speaker 2: a real shame because he is one of the probably
Speaker 2: in the modern era, i'd say, one of the best
Speaker 2: players not to get an All Blacks jersey.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very very unsung, So very interesting to see how
Speaker 3: those teams shake down. I will I can't tip Canterbury,
Speaker 3: so will go bop and I think regardless of the teams,
Speaker 3: I expect Wellington to beat Waikato. But it is also
Speaker 3: great to see a guy like Aaron Cruden finishing his
Speaker 3: career playing provincial forty, giving back, having a real influence.
Speaker 3: Even you know the drop goal I think it was
Speaker 3: was a park Excavage. Yeah good, almost forty meta drop
Speaker 3: kit Cruden. I saw a postmatch interview with Cook Savage
Speaker 3: and he said that Cruden called for that earlier and
Speaker 3: then that was the second crack. He called him caught
Speaker 3: or said he was calling the play. So the thing
Speaker 3: his body's hanging on by three. But great to see
Speaker 3: a form more All Black like that having a massive
Speaker 3: impact on a provincial team.
Speaker 2: Indeed, before we take a quick break, this has been
Speaker 2: bubbling around for a few months, and it was already
Speaker 2: around two or three months back, but now it's come
Speaker 2: back around again that France planning to send say a
Speaker 2: development team down to New Zealand for the three Tests
Speaker 2: against the All Blacks next year. We've seen various headlines
Speaker 2: saying the All Blacks are wild or whatever about it.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that, The fact that France
Speaker 2: are likely to send a development team perhaps missing you know,
Speaker 2: the likes of Antonin du Pont and perhaps various other
Speaker 2: players there. I mean, it does depend on when they're
Speaker 2: finals and who makes that final in the top fourteen.
Speaker 2: But the writing teams on the wall that they're going
Speaker 2: to send a weekend team down to New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Think it's a disgrace. I think it makes a mockery
Speaker 3: of the test game. You know, how would the French
Speaker 3: feel if the All Blacks scent the All Blacks fifteen
Speaker 3: to France to Paris in November instead of the top
Speaker 3: line team. Look from a selling point point of view,
Speaker 3: how great would it be to have Antone DuPont down here?
Speaker 4: And in terms of.
Speaker 3: His career as well, he needs to travel be the
Speaker 3: country well, unless he's going to the NFL or Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's just a great shame because it would be an
Speaker 3: amazing series having France here, the best of the best
Speaker 3: that French rugby has to offer. But they are very
Speaker 3: much beholden to their clubs and I think there's been
Speaker 3: a new deal done there and it is also nothing new.
Speaker 3: They have been doing this for a number of years.
Speaker 3: They did it when they went to Argentina this year.
Speaker 3: But it's a great frustration just from a.
Speaker 2: Crudibility.
Speaker 3: I think Test rugby is the pinnacle and you want
Speaker 3: the best of the best, and it just sucks the
Speaker 3: life out of that series, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Well. I just don't know why they've flagged at twelve
Speaker 2: months in advance thereabouts. You know. I think it's probably
Speaker 2: New Zealand Rugby's this year is that they've actually gone
Speaker 2: out and said we're not sending our best down there.
Speaker 2: And then so New Zealand Rugby early next year is
Speaker 2: going to have to announce that they're playing these tests
Speaker 2: in Duneden or Hamilton or Wellington or Auckland or wherever
Speaker 2: it might be and go come and see the All Blacks.
Speaker 2: They're playing a whole bunch of French players that you've
Speaker 2: never heard of. And that's the thing is with that
Speaker 2: announced it when they did their squad three weeks out
Speaker 2: from traveling, go you actually not seending upon then it's
Speaker 2: a bit more powerful. But to advertise twelve months out
Speaker 2: or whatever that you're not sending your best players down
Speaker 2: I think is it does hurt Test rugby and that's
Speaker 2: something that World Rugby needs to fix. But they're powerless, powerless,
Speaker 2: I don't know that they don't seem to want to
Speaker 2: do anything. I don't know, the necessarily powerless, they just
Speaker 2: don't seem like actually doing anything half the time.
Speaker 3: Well, I wonder how it would go down if the
Speaker 3: French decided to pull their players out of a Six
Speaker 3: Nations game in Dublin or ticking them at the windows.
Speaker 3: Mean that it doesn't that there's not the same clashes there,
Speaker 3: but it's the same issue as and it shows how
Speaker 3: fragmented the game is still that the top fourteen is prioritized.
Speaker 3: And look in this part of the world, it's very
Speaker 3: easy to get blase about that because you don't see
Speaker 3: those events. If you know how passionate French fans are
Speaker 3: about the top fourteen and how important and how.
Speaker 2: It's a great competition, I'm sure if we could watch it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's amazing that the genuine passion, you know,
Speaker 3: flears going off the buses, arriving fandom is alive in
Speaker 3: the French game. But to prioritize the top fourteen over
Speaker 3: the test game as a real slap in the face.
Speaker 2: Well it's what international. But what's What's what rugby union's
Speaker 2: got as an advantage over rugby league is the international game,
Speaker 2: because the international game rugby league is a joke. So
Speaker 2: you've got that and when you start prioritizing the club
Speaker 2: game over it. That's what they've done in the NRAL,
Speaker 2: it's what they've done another thing, you know, the Super
Speaker 2: League to extend as well, and then the international game
Speaker 2: becomes an afterthought and you just don't want to go
Speaker 2: too far down that track. But there's not much New
Speaker 2: Zealand Rugby can do about it. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: you could play a three match North versus South series
Speaker 2: or whatever and that would probably fill the stadiums, but
Speaker 2: you've got to take France and you know, deal with
Speaker 2: the consequences of not selling out stadiums presumably.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's gonna be a tough sell and there
Speaker 3: is absolutely nothing New Zealand Rugby can do about it.
Speaker 2: Quick break, come back with more afters.
Speaker 1: This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fans.
Speaker 2: Every try try ten sixty sec, every tackle tackles get
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Speaker 1: Every league.
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Speaker 4: It's Ruggy Direct, ladies.
Speaker 2: You're back with Rugby Direct. Time now for our final four.
Speaker 2: It's time to catch up on a few of the
Speaker 2: things that have missed over the last couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: Number one, James O'Connor signed with the Crusaders. He'll lead
Speaker 2: them back to the Promised Land in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: What do you make of the signing, Well.
Speaker 3: I look forward to you eating your words on that,
Speaker 3: just quietly. Look, I think it's a good signing for
Speaker 3: the Crusaders and the context of what they've got.
Speaker 4: Rivers, Rayhanna and who else have.
Speaker 3: So very on both of them, super regular, exactly very green,
Speaker 3: unproven first fives. As we mentioned, the Crusaders tried for
Speaker 3: Josh Jacob, so clearly Colin Mainsbridge and the Crusaders recruitment
Speaker 3: department have been reading the Herald because I did a
Speaker 3: column in June this year saying James O'Connor, Josh Jacob,
Speaker 3: Aaron Cruden should be on the Crusaders wish list. Cruden's
Speaker 3: going to retire, so very limited options there. Look, he's
Speaker 3: not gonna solve the Crusaders first five crisis, but he
Speaker 3: is a very experienced heads and he will be a
Speaker 3: great mentor for those players. He's a guy that could
Speaker 3: you can bring off the bench in the last quarter
Speaker 3: and control the match. So I think he's a decent pickup.
Speaker 3: He's not a problem solver. He's not a long term prospect.
Speaker 3: This is a one year thing and the Crusaders are
Speaker 3: likely to have Rich and Wonga back after that.
Speaker 2: It is a stop gap measure, no doubt about that.
Speaker 2: I think it's a good signing. Look, he's grown up
Speaker 2: a bit from press the wild child that maybe he
Speaker 2: was a decade or so ago, has matured significantly, become
Speaker 2: a very very good player and I think could still
Speaker 2: help out the Wallabies in all honesty. In fact, I
Speaker 2: think what three years I think since his last play
Speaker 2: he's got New Zealand peris maybe an all Blacks disease
Speaker 2: in the offering for James O'Connor.
Speaker 3: Well, Look, the only other point I'd make is maybe
Speaker 3: Somerset Holmes could sponsor the Crusaders because it's becoming a
Speaker 3: bit of a retirement village, isn't it. Lee half Penny,
Speaker 3: Jared Payne, James O'Connor, who's.
Speaker 2: Next tard he cut Willie Hines. Yeah, bring him back
Speaker 2: for next year. I did see as well last week
Speaker 2: on Wellington called Drug Report, that Kyle Preston, the Wellington
Speaker 2: half back, is someone with the Crusaders for next season,
Speaker 2: so Brigian, but it's Hotham, Drummonds and in Kyle Preston
Speaker 2: as their three half backs. Question number two, sticking with
Speaker 2: the first fives, Brick Cameron suffering that injury for Mana
Speaker 2: with two acl out for what nine months? Who's going
Speaker 2: to miss the entirety of Super rugby the Hurricanes This
Speaker 2: is We talked about it earlier, earlier in the first
Speaker 2: half of the podcast, that there's not a lot of
Speaker 2: first fives and they're all truncated into the top half
Speaker 2: of the North Island. So what do the Hurricanes do now?
Speaker 2: I was watching our colleagues at the Breakdown a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks ago in Isaac Boss suggested that cam Rougard
Speaker 2: could play ten. He's worked a weave it with him
Speaker 2: around I think counties, junior levels or something like that.
Speaker 2: Maybe is cam Roygard the answer for the Hurricanes at ten?
Speaker 2: You got Jordia Ville unit nine.
Speaker 3: It's all coming to look no, no, he's not leave
Speaker 3: cam ruyguard at half back and he can just assume
Speaker 3: a lot more responsibility.
Speaker 4: Look as a massive blow.
Speaker 3: Brett Cameron didn't perform very well in the semi final
Speaker 3: that the Hurricanes lost, got a bit found out in
Speaker 3: that matched, but he is a very steady hand and
Speaker 3: he knows how to control a game. His kicking game
Speaker 3: is very educated and he had a big impact on
Speaker 3: the Hurricanes, So massive blow for him and the Hurricanes.
Speaker 3: I think they're going to have to turn to Ruben
Speaker 3: Love at ten, which is not ideal because his best
Speaker 3: at fullback. He played ten through high school for Pumpston
Speaker 3: North Boys High so he has a lot of experience there.
Speaker 3: And when Jason Hollan was coach, he rotated Aiden Morgan
Speaker 3: and Rubin Love basically for a whole season at ten,
Speaker 3: which didn't work for the Hurricanes, but so Rubin Love
Speaker 3: has some experience at ten. There are other options are
Speaker 3: Harry Godfrey, who's predominantly played fullback for Hawk's Bay but
Speaker 3: does have First five experience, and I think the Hurricanes
Speaker 3: have also signed Lucas cashmore Bay Plenty Prospects, who has
Speaker 3: been with the Blues but is green as well. So,
Speaker 3: as you mentioned, as we touched on very limited options
Speaker 3: with the Chiefs and Blues stockpiling their tens. Oh how
Speaker 3: the Canes would love to get their hands on Josh
Speaker 3: Jacob or Stephen Petefetter, but yeah, big setback for them,
Speaker 3: I think a little. One of the fans of the
Speaker 3: pod actually messaged me to say that the Canes have
Speaker 3: apparently signed.
Speaker 4: Cade Bank from Harbo from Harbor.
Speaker 3: But yeah, he's not going to play ten either, So
Speaker 3: that's that's not going to sell Bret Cameron's absence.
Speaker 2: No, it's not. You mentioned Oar and crew didn't couldn't
Speaker 2: tempt him to go for another trip around the block.
Speaker 3: Well, he sent me worth a phone call. He is
Speaker 3: in the James O'Connor mold, isn't he. He's not a
Speaker 3: guy that would be starting week and week out. His
Speaker 3: body wouldn't last the distance. But yeah, what a guy
Speaker 3: to have in your squad to be able to bring
Speaker 3: off the bench.
Speaker 4: So yeah, i'd give him a call.
Speaker 2: They don't have Jordi Barrett either. Of course the next
Speaker 2: season going to Leinster on that sabbatical deal. He's played
Speaker 2: test met rugby at ten. Could have moved him into ten.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well he actually does, or did prior to Brett
Speaker 3: Cameron's or over a lot of that back line organization.
Speaker 3: So if you move Reuben Love to ten, then you're
Speaker 3: reconfiguring the back three as well. And Jordie's a massive loss.
Speaker 3: Bigger loss I would suggest than Ardie severe because of
Speaker 3: the way the hurricanes loose forwards have come through. So yeah,
Speaker 3: a big setback for Clark laid law there.
Speaker 2: Indeed, topic number three. World rugby rule changes continue to
Speaker 2: move a step forward, including the twenty minute red card,
Speaker 2: which is taking another step forward with World Rugby basically
Speaker 2: giving the signature of approval. This has been met with
Speaker 2: and we bit of an uproar up North. They're not
Speaker 2: huge fans of it, but seems like World Rugby is
Speaker 2: intent on making it part of the rules. I think
Speaker 2: it's a good move for World Rugby, but I do
Speaker 2: think it hasn't been explained that well to how it
Speaker 2: works up North, because there's a lot of confusion around oh,
Speaker 2: you can bring this player back on after twenty minutes,
Speaker 2: No you can't. You have to bring another player, And
Speaker 2: I just don't think it's been explained clearly the fact
Speaker 2: that's still calling it a twenty minute red card when
Speaker 2: the red card full red card still exists as just
Speaker 2: an optics and clarity issue. You should go in an
Speaker 2: orange card or similar or an injection card, player rejection,
Speaker 2: whatever it might be. But Ultimately, I think this is
Speaker 2: a good thing for rugby union that yes, you're looking
Speaker 2: after the head contact that you need to look after
Speaker 2: and applying discipline around that and applying sanctions, but you're
Speaker 2: also keeping the game of context at contests because you
Speaker 2: think about the number of red cards that have happened
Speaker 2: over last decade versus the ninety years of test mat
Speaker 2: drugging before it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the key point there is that the
Speaker 3: actual full red card is still available, and like you say,
Speaker 3: that needs to be explained because if there is an
Speaker 3: act of thuggery or a really bad tackle, then that
Speaker 3: option is still available.
Speaker 4: So it's the best of both worlds.
Speaker 3: You're protecting the entertainment product and let's get real that
Speaker 3: rugby's big business now and that need the credibility of
Speaker 3: the contests does need to be preserved, and that's what
Speaker 3: this does. So I think World Rugby the penny is
Speaker 3: finally dropping. They do still have to vote on it
Speaker 3: in November, so as we've seen World Rugby and present
Speaker 3: your elections and all sorts of wheeling and dealing behind
Speaker 3: the scenes, things can change, but it does seem like
Speaker 3: there has been positive progression here, so hopefully that goes
Speaker 3: through and just I think it's a nod to the
Speaker 3: progression that's happened in the Southern hemisphere and they've been
Speaker 3: pushing for this for a number of years. And aside
Speaker 3: from the red card, things like shot clocks for kicking,
Speaker 3: that the mall is only allowed one stoppage and the
Speaker 3: scrums and lineouts, basically that the intent to speed up
Speaker 3: the game, which is what's happened through Super Rugby this
Speaker 3: year with diminishing the TMO influence and the NPC. So
Speaker 3: that's been a real catalyst for change, isn't.
Speaker 2: It It has indeed, And yeah, interesting to see attention
Speaker 2: now being played up north to that final topic. In
Speaker 2: the Final four, Tarmathi Ellison officially leaves the Crusader. It's
Speaker 2: not too much surprise there because it seems like it
Speaker 2: was destined to happen once the All Blacks made their
Speaker 2: coaching changes around that, but he's officially at the Crusaders now.
Speaker 2: There was but speculation was basically informed speculation that there
Speaker 2: was basically a two year stopgap that Rob Penny was
Speaker 2: going to coach the Crusaders twenty twenty four to twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five and Thomasy Allison would come in from twenty
Speaker 2: twenty six. Now, whether that was in rising, whether it
Speaker 2: was just presumed, whatever it was, that's not going to
Speaker 2: happen now from twenty twenty six. So the Crusaders, having
Speaker 2: lost Scott Robertson, Scott Hansen, Jason Ryan previously to that,
Speaker 2: have now lost Tomoty Allison and so any thoughts around
Speaker 2: a succession plan now out the window. So what do
Speaker 2: the Crusaders do to this point? It gives them a
Speaker 2: clean slate, I guess, But what's your feeling around where
Speaker 2: they're going to go from here?
Speaker 4: Who knows?
Speaker 3: There's real instability there isn't there? Because Rob Penny was well,
Speaker 3: certainly externally was on a knife edge of being chopped.
Speaker 3: I don't think that was ever going to happen from
Speaker 3: a Crusaders perspective, but dire seasoned by a Crusader standards
Speaker 3: this year, so he's under pressure to perform in the
Speaker 3: final year of his contract and I don't think they
Speaker 3: at this point would know where they're going to go
Speaker 3: beyond that. As you mentioned, somebody Ellison was earmarked, he
Speaker 3: was odds on to take over.
Speaker 4: Now who now, where do they go?
Speaker 3: There's whispers about Leo McDonald popping up an Australian rugby.
Speaker 4: I don't think he would come back to.
Speaker 3: Super rugby as it is so Yeah, real instability and uncertainty.
Speaker 3: So maybe just sign Rob Pinny up for five years.
Speaker 2: Well, look, he's got James O'Connor next year and may
Speaker 2: all come together for Rob in the Crusaders in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. And this may be a moot discussion. Maybe
Speaker 2: you're saying that with a smile. I'm trying to get
Speaker 2: a lifetime deal in twenty twenty five to go until
Speaker 2: I pop my clogs. I'm going to be coaching the Crusaders.
Speaker 2: But let's say is not there's not many head coaches
Speaker 2: at the moment putting their hands up. I don't think
Speaker 2: internally in New Zealand rugby from the Crusaders, I will
Speaker 2: think at maybe like you, guy like Neil Barnes to
Speaker 2: come down and coach h he's older than Rob Penny.
Speaker 2: But perhaps someone like Kim could come in.
Speaker 4: Colin Cooper's flow.
Speaker 3: It feels like the future exactly that Richard Watt's done
Speaker 3: a really good job with plenty of this year. But again,
Speaker 3: a guy that's been around a.
Speaker 4: Long, long time.
Speaker 2: Indeed, Ross Felippo is a coach that I think has
Speaker 2: got ammense promise.
Speaker 3: He was certainly in the discussions for the Crusades. I
Speaker 3: would say he is actually the leading candidate that that
Speaker 3: that that they would go after. But the Chief's going
Speaker 3: to let him go because he is a real talent
Speaker 3: and highly regarded both with what he's done with Waikato
Speaker 3: and the Chiefs, and he's now with New Zealand.
Speaker 4: Maldi so clearly.
Speaker 3: Identified from a high performance perspective with the New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 3: So I was if I was the Crusaders, I'll be
Speaker 3: going all in on Ross.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it. I guess he've still got a
Speaker 2: bit of water to go on the bridge as to
Speaker 2: how twenty twenty five plays out.
Speaker 4: And Robbie you trust man, we do.
Speaker 2: That'll do us for Rugby Directs this week for your
Speaker 2: company again suing with the end of year tour looming.
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Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. I thanks as
Speaker 2: always to last and Bars English. We'll catch you next time.
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