WEBVTT - Could the UK's asylum policy overhaul have an impact on NZ rules? 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:05.640 Kiota. 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.720 I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:17.120 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The United 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:22.200 Kingdom is vowing to restore order and control through controversial 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.800 sweeping reform on the country's asylum system. The new interpretations 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.640 of human rights laws will make the UK less attractive 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.160 for asylum seekers and make it easier to deport them. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.960 The tougher rules on refugee statuses means that people would 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.280 need to reapply and it would take twenty years for 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:48.040 permanent settlement. Immigration has become one of the UK's most 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.879 contentious subjects. This year, we saw thousands march in vicious 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.640 anti immigration rallies and protests across the country. So at 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:01.440 a time when on one hand we're seeing prolonged devastation 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:06.560 in places like Ukraine, Mianma, Gaza, Sudan, we're also seeing 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:12.040 growing animosity towards those seeking asylum from those wars. Today 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.000 on the Front Page, human rights lawyer and activists Res 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.120 Ghadi is with us to discuss the growing worldwide negative 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:28.440 sentiment towards those seeking asylum. So, first off, rees, what 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.880 was your first reaction when you saw the latest announcement 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:33.679 from the UK's Shamana Mahmud. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.600 For me, as someone who was born as a refugee, 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.720 I think the right to seek asylum is a matter 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:47.760 of survival, and so when I see politicians and news 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:52.160 articles like this one, it's really concerning because it feels 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.440 like the issue that should be a matter of human 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:00.320 rights and protection is manipulated and used in in these 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.440 kind of politicized ways. I mean, especially when we're talking 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:09.639 about systems that are supposed to be protecting and upholding 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:13.600 human rights, then using this kind of way to deter 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.399 and to talk about illegal migration and all these kinds 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:20.600 of narratives that I just I think are not accurate. 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.240 It's really frustrating, and especially for those of us working 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.160 on the ground with people on a daily basis, it. 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.680 Is incredibly frustrating actually, and because of the analysis that 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.160 I've read in the last couple of days is that 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:39.480 they're facing increasing pressure from the far right factions of 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.320 the UK government. This is a labor party that's actually 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:47.560 brought these this is Salem Seeker system reforms in and 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.960 it is political because they are taking that because the 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:56.000 popularity of Nigel Faraga's party and they've decided to go 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.640 ahead with this reform, the biggest reform in decades, and 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.560 some of the things I mean, if we look through 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.120 what it will actually mean for asylum seekers and refugees, 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.880 having to get your status renewed, only being able to 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.079 become a permanent resident after twenty years, and that's if 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:22.800 your original country is deemed still deemed unsafe. What would 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:28.600 you say to someone who is looking at these reforms 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.480 and thinking, oh, New Zealand should do the same. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.040 Yeah. Absolutely. 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.320 As you've mentioned, some of these reforms that they're proposing 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:45.360 are really inconsistent with the protections that both the UK 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.560 and New Zealand's have signed up to. They're inconsistent with 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.080 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, They're inconsistent with the 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:58.200 Refugee Convention, both of these that clearly set out the 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:03.320 right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution, which set 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.680 out clear definitions of who illegally are considered refugees. These 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.360 instruments are designed to protect people and from the time 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:17.159 that they were ratified up until today, they are still 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:22.000 relevant and so putting forward these kind of reforms that 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.840 are inconsistent with the law I think is hugely concerning 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.920 and what I would say, is this idea of like 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.480 a war on illegal migration or the asylum system being 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.960 abused is something that we're hearing in different parts of 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.400 the world, mainly coming from from the rights but it 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.560 has in some way in some countries been able to 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.960 trigger fair from people that don't necessarily understand the systems 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:57.160 or the processes. And unfortunately that's where we're most at risk, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.840 when people don't understand and then fall for these kind 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.440 of lines about we need we need to control the 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:07.279 asylum system or illegal migration has gone out of control. 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.560 What we need to do is kind of fight back 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.320 with the data and the evidence. In particular, in a 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:18.800 place like New Zealand's, there isn't this concern of overwhelming 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.400 numbers of people arriving on our shores. 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:22.720 I mean, we're an. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:27.680 Island like the UK, but our geographic location is a 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.080 is a really important factor and not a lot of 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.599 people can physically access New Zealand. And then also the 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:38.719 laws and the administrative processes that are required to arrive 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.440 in New Zealand shores in the first place are much 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:47.200 more cumbersome, and so the risk of illegal migration in 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:53.080 New Zealand is really really almost non existent, and if 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.320 it does exist, it is such an inconsiderable number, and 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.719 it is a number that our authorities and system can 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:01.919 process and handle. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:03.800 And it's actually. 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.320 Inconsistent with what a lot of the research and studies 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.279 say around the number of people arriving in New Zealand 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:14.440 to seek asylum in the first place. So the kind 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:17.080 of rhetoric that we're seeing in other parts of the 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.840 world don't apply to New Zealand. But also on top 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:25.000 of that, I think the way New Zealand has considered 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:28.800 refugee and asylum claims is also at a much much 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.640 smaller scale than the UK and the US and other 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.760 European countries also grapple. 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:39.360 With the Interior Minister Shabana Machmunt outlined what the Labor 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.719 government calls the most sweeping reforms in decades, which include 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.640 tougher rules on refugee status and new interpretations of human 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.200 rights laws aimed at accelerating deportations. There has been growing 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.719 public concern over immigration and a surge in support for 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.479 the populist Reform UK Party, which is putting pressure on 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.240 the government to take a tougher stance. Ministers say the 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:07.440 changes will restore control while critics, including some in the 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:12.200 Labor Party, warn that they risk deepening divisions and weakening 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:17.480 human rights protections. Let's take a listen to some of 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.680 what the Interior Minister and Shabanah Mackmud said earlier in 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:21.680 the British Parliament. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.800 What I have said already on these matters is that 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.520 we have a proper problem, that it is our moral 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:32.320 duty to fix. Our asylum system is broken. The breaking 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.760 of that asylum system is causing huge division across our 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:39.000 whole country. It is a moral mission for me to 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.800 resolve that division across our country. I know that the 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.240 reforms I will be setting out later on today can 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.640 fix this system and in doing so can unite what 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:49.360 is today a divided country. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.480 Yeah, I saw that in the UK Britain's report, widespread 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.440 satisfaction with the government the cost of living. Obviously, many 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.120 people believe their local areas are housing more asylum seekers 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.840 than is quote unquote fair. What do you think it 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:08.880 will take for a kind of Does there need to 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.160 be a shift of consciousness here? Will we ever be 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.760 rid of the term us versus them? 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.800 I think there are a number of difference I guess 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.040 factors that are relevant in this regard to it, because 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.240 I think it's the same in the US and the UK. 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:32.840 There are populations of people that do have these really 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.920 strong beliefs about the numbers of refugees, or what's fair 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.000 and what's not fair, or what's being done that aren't 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:45.000 really consistent with the data and evidence. Again, but what 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.440 we've seen, especially in the US, and I would argue 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:53.360 probably similar trends in the UK based on the large 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.200 number of people that we saw show up to protest 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.920 the UK Rwanda deal, is that the majority of people 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.480 actually do not think that there is a massive problem 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:11.360 with migration or asylum seekers to the extent that the 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.200 media or perhaps the politicians make it out to be. 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.520 We saw, for example, in the US and studies done 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.560 around the number of people that actually think that the 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:26.040 US refugee settlement program was a good thing more than 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.760 fifty percent. I think the statistics were in the late 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.160 sixty something to seventy percent of people thought that it 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.160 was a good program. And similarly, the number of people 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:40.000 that have consistently shown up in. 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:39.479 The UK. 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:46.040 Do outnumber the people who I think think very negatively 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:47.480 about asylum. 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:48.160 Seekers and refugees. 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.839 I think the issue here is also the conflation. So 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.640 we have a lot of people that perhaps if you 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.840 frame the question in a way around protection and fleeing 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:04.320 persecution and war and you know mass atrocities, are very 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:09.720 you know, humane in their response and sympathetic, empathetic. It's 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.640 that there is this con you know, conflation of migrants 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:18.600 and refugees. People believe that refugees who who can show 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:24.319 a genuine fear of persecution from their countries, and then 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:29.400 people who may not have the best circumstances or you know, 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.760 opportunities but are not at risk of harm or persecution 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.160 or you know, torture or death as the extreme cases 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.559 may be for refugees in their own countries. And these 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.920 are the migrants. And so there is a different approach 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:46.120 for people's reactions based on. 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:46.360 Who those groups of people are. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.640 But like I mentioned, there is a confusion and not 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.719 all people understand the difference categories. And I think this 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:59.199 in turn then also I think impacts the policies and 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.160 the responses governments take. There are many governments who now 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.000 believe that's migration or. 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.000 Movements of people is out. 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.440 Of control, and that's something we should think about, you know, 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.560 very carefully. It's true that there are a number of 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.680 you know, a lot, a lot of people that move 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.880 for opportunities who are not refugees, but also that the 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:29.480 migration system and the opportunities, the visa systems, the pathways 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:35.800 for legal migration has not necessarily kept pace with the trends. 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:37.960 You know, we live in a very different world just 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:44.080 when some of these agreements and documents were created, and 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.040 maybe movement for opportunities and for work wasn't as you know, 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:53.040 as major, but movement of people has always happened. People 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.760 have always moved for you know, for opportunities, for new lives, 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.560 for better lives, for all sorts of different reasons. Is 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:05.000 one of the oldest facts of human history. So it's 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.920 something that countries need to grapple with. But it's not 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.640 a matter of stopping, you know, asylum systems or reforming 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.480 asylum systems to address migration, which is something you know, 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.079 quite different and requires different responses. 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.120 And I see all of this talk about asylum seekers, 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.200 and I mean, obviously we live in a time where 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.640 there are multiple wars happening in the world. We've got 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:32.280 South Sudan, mianmar Gaza, and of course Ukraine just to 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.280 name a few do you think it's I mean, it 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.280 seems hypocritical when when there is such an influx of 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.120 hatred towards those seeking asylum and then at the same 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:49.480 time cuts to worldwide humanitarian aid on huge scales from 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.119 some of the world's largest powers. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:55.439 Absolutely. 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:59.920 I was in Geneva recently at a un eh CR 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:05.200 events and they're the High Commissioner for Refugees was talking 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:12.000 about the Dyer need for funding because they were ending 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:16.480 this year with a one point three billion shortfall compared 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:20.440 to last year, a thirty percent workforce reduction, one hundred 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.280 and eighty five officers consolidated or closed. And so what 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.840 we see is in the last two years, global humanitarian 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:32.080 funding has collapsed more than fifty three percent, and alone 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.680 just from the US's commitments from fourteen billion plus to 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.840 somewhere around three billion. So it's a major drop in 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.560 the global humanitarian funding and what's needed to respond to 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:50.800 these crises in a lot of these countries actually prioritizing 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:56.439 funding into defense and deterrence policies. Unfortunately, the problem there 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:02.000 is what we've seen over many years is that stopping 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:06.920 people from accessing safety or accessing borders to seek asylum 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.240 does not stop people from moving. It just means that 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:15.880 they end up in more dangerous routes or taking more 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.680 dangerous risks to try to seek safety. It doesn't stop 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.400 people from trying. It just means that more people die 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.600 in this attempt. So the deterrence policies unfortunately don't have 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.400 the effect that maybe these states policies intend them to have, 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.160 and actually just really really dire. 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.520 Consequences such as we saw recently there. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.440 We're hangar drowning at sea, you know, the number of 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.960 people that are killed in the process, or in the 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.960 Darian jungle in Latin America, Central America. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:48.200 Accessing these paths. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.080 People don't stop taking these risks to get their families 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.000 to safety. But unfortunately it does mean that more people die. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.760 And so what I would say then is, on the 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.360 one hand, we know that global humanitarian funding has reached 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.640 you know, probably the lowest point at least in my 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.960 recent memory and perhaps for those even working in the 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.640 field longer than I have. And then on the other 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.720 hand hand, we're reaching unprecedented numbers of people who are 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.960 seeking safety from persecution from these wars that you've mentioned. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.040 Saddan Mia mah Gazda and there are countless others that 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.280 are not covered by the media in as much detail, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.720 but they're definitely impacting millions of people. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.040 People's responses on the grounds, aren't. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.160 I think for the most part positive when it comes 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:48.240 to certain certain movements of people or the suffering of 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.880 certain groups of people. But I think again it comes 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:55.320 down to exposure. There are just you know, some atrocities 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.400 that don't get the same kind of media attention to 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.000 people aren't to where what's happening in those regions or 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.400 what kind of atrocities people are subjected to, and so 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.680 there is like a mismatch I think the reality and 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.560 what people are aware of and then on and I 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:09.640 think the other end is. 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:11.200 There can be this kind of. 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.400 You know, people are also facing still very high cost 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:22.320 of living challenges of affordability, housing crises in their own 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:25.360 parts of the world and their own backyards, and so 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:29.040 there can be this kind of us against them mentality 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:33.480 that again I think it's not helpful because really it's 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:34.720 not an either or or. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.800 Mutually exclusive considerations. 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.000 But actually, when we're trying to make systems more ethical, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.880 more just more fair for all, it's about all of 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:48.880 these because I think they all have impacts on another. 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.680 If we've got good policies in our own countries, but 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.960 then also our foreign policies are positive and focused on 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:02.600 development and supporting and global responsibility sharing, then we're going 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:04.399 to have bitter outcomes across the globe. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:05.919 They're not mutually exclusive. 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.120 What happens in one country, whether on the other side 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.720 of the world, still impacts us, whether we're in New Zealand, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.119 whether we're in the UK, whether we're in the US. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.040 We just have to, I. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:21.640 Think, be a bit more conscious of how interconnected our 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:22.719 world really is. 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.080 I want to start before we go on to this 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.040 speech from Shibonna my mood and how significant it is, 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.080 Let's look at what came before, because ultimately the proof 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.640 of the pudding is in the eating. Tell us about 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.040 the Danish system, and this is a system that was 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:41.320 counter to Scandinavian neighbors. It was seen as deeply tough, 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.320 some suggested critics that it was racist. Now appears to 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.560 be amongst some, at least the Golden Boy, the Golden 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.480 Way forward for migration. 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:52.000 Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:52.480 So. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.760 Denmark has had for some time now a sort of 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:59.760 temporary by default approach to refugee protection it. 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.880 Also does a number of other things. It has departure. 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.159 Centers to encourage voluntary return or failed asylum seekers. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:07.320 It has really. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.439 Strict rules on which refugees can bring in family members. 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.320 They have to be self sufficient twenty four years old. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.440 And it's also had some very symbolic laws, including most 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.080 famously the jewelry Law, which was brought to in twenty sixteen, 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.160 which means please can confiscate asylum seekers cash or valuables 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.280 to help pay for their stay in the country. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.679 You experienced actually living in a refugee camp when you 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.080 were younger. Tell me about that and how that's shaped 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.399 who you were today and what you're in your work. 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:40.560 Obviously, yes, so exactly as you mentioned, people would not 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.440 be putting their families at such great risk if the 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.040 reality of staying home were not more dangerous. And I 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.959 can speak to this from personal experience. My family fled 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.760 at the time of the Kurdish genocide and then faced 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.879 more humans violations and risks to their lives when there 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:08.040 were refugees in Iran as Kurdish minorities. And then so 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.560 we're forced to flee again, and then this time crossing 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:19.240 the border into Pakistan. A really unpredictable, uncertain journey, not 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.320 knowing what could come next, but just knowing that remaining 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.600 where they were was far more dangerous than attempting to 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:30.760 find safety elsewhere. And so my family arrived in Pakistan 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:35.760 and sought asylum, and they were granted asylum quite quickly 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.119 because of the strong evidence in their case as Kurdish 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.560 minorities who were subject to persecution by not just one 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.679 regime but multiple regimes in the region. 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.000 But unfortunately what was challenging. 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:52.080 Was the process, so from being recognized as genuine refugees 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.639 with a risk of persecution to then the process of 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:59.520 actually finding a durable solution or a safety in a 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.879 pathway to somewhere safe. And so my family ended up 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.800 being in Pakistan for ten years, not knowing during that 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.919 entire decade whether they would be there a day longer 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.720 or a year longer, for ten years longer, just unpredictable waiting. 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.439 And so you have these people living in limbo, not 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.439 knowing whether they should settle down and build you know, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:23.919 routes and start kind of living as if they were 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.560 going to be there forever, or living temporarily thinking that 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.159 they will be resettled very shortly afterwards. So what you 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.119 get is the people that kind of in between, not 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.600 fully settled but not fully ready to leave either and 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.640 creating these kind of challenges for me. I was born 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.280 in Pakistan when my family had already arrived there. So 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.439 my brother and sister older than me, were already with 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:49.920 my parents when they arrived in Pakistan. I was born 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:54.560 in Pakistan, and so you know, lived and experienced life 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:59.600 as a refugee, not knowing anything different, and so the 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:04.639 kind of circumstances that I was raised in, not having 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:07.919 access to school until you know, a lot of protests 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:10.840 and people in our community were fighting for the right 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.680 for their children to go to school, not having proper 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:18.240 access to food, water, shelter, clean water on a regular basis, 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:25.240 the kind of really just limited access to what a 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.840 lot of Kiwis would think is normal or you know, 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.280 something that they would expect to have, not having access 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:32.000 to those things. 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.399 And then on top of that, the daily protests that. 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:37.879 Our family and communities would go to because they just 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:43.080 wanted some sort of clarity on their process and what 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.480 was happening and how long would they be waiting, just 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:49.240 some sort of certainty. And then in addition, to that 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.159 people dying from hunger strikes because they were just finding 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:56.000 that it was just too unbearable for them to sit 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.560 and wait, and then taking on these hunger strikes to 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:03.199 just urge the when and countries to respond to the 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:10.520 dire circumstances, Seeing children die from preventable diseases just because 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.360 we didn't have the healthcare that we needed, and all 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.159 sorts of really, you know, things that children just should 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:22.240 should not find is what their daily life looks like. 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.040 I thought those things were normal until I came to 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.000 New Zealand and saw a completely different world. And it 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.040 was only then that I realized the life that we'd 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:36.159 been living as refugees was not normal and that it 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:40.760 was extremely difficult compared to the life that many others 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.040 lived around the world. And so that really shaped my 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:46.720 journey from a very young age, because I had knowledge 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:52.720 of the denial of rights and basic human needs, the 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:55.879 unpredictability of life, and also on top of that, you know, 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.600 coming from a Kurdish background, to the genocide and human 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:04.239 rights violations that my family had directly suffered from not 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:07.639 having these kind of rights to exist and to just 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:12.280 be who we are already shaped a lot of my thinking, 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.080 and so I wanted to take advantage of these opportunities 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.480 that I had in New Zealand, a place where I 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:18.760 grew up, where we had it. You know, when I 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.440 first arrived in New Zealand, we had a female Prime 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:27.600 Minister who was talking about about things that I had 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.480 never heard before, about the kind of rights that people had, 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:32.480 and about the kind of you know, the access that 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:34.560 I had at school and the teachers and the attention 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:35.959 that gave people. 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:37.520 So I was mind blown. 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.040 I was like just thinking about what life I had 0:23:41.040 --> 0:23:43.000 and what I had now, and how could I not 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:44.040 take advantage of it? 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.400 Beautiful, Thank you so much for joining us, Rez. 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:49.480 Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:49.760 to here. 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.720 That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 0:23:55.760 --> 0:23:59.640 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:24:00.200 --> 0:24:03.800 a Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:07.240 produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:08.080 our editor. 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:10.080 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.679 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:24:13.720 --> 0:24:17.400 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:18.640 behind the headlines.