1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The United 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 2: Kingdom is vowing to restore order and control through controversial 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: sweeping reform on the country's asylum system. The new interpretations 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: of human rights laws will make the UK less attractive 7 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 2: for asylum seekers and make it easier to deport them. 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: The tougher rules on refugee statuses means that people would 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 2: need to reapply and it would take twenty years for 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: permanent settlement. Immigration has become one of the UK's most 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: contentious subjects. This year, we saw thousands march in vicious 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: anti immigration rallies and protests across the country. So at 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: a time when on one hand we're seeing prolonged devastation 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: in places like Ukraine, Mianma, Gaza, Sudan, we're also seeing 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 2: growing animosity towards those seeking asylum from those wars. Today 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: on the Front Page, human rights lawyer and activists Res 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 2: Ghadi is with us to discuss the growing worldwide negative 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: sentiment towards those seeking asylum. So, first off, rees, what 19 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: was your first reaction when you saw the latest announcement 20 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 2: from the UK's Shamana Mahmud. 21 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: For me, as someone who was born as a refugee, 22 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: I think the right to seek asylum is a matter 23 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: of survival, and so when I see politicians and news 24 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: articles like this one, it's really concerning because it feels 25 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 3: like the issue that should be a matter of human 26 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 3: rights and protection is manipulated and used in in these 27 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: kind of politicized ways. I mean, especially when we're talking 28 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 3: about systems that are supposed to be protecting and upholding 29 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: human rights, then using this kind of way to deter 30 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 3: and to talk about illegal migration and all these kinds 31 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 3: of narratives that I just I think are not accurate. 32 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: It's really frustrating, and especially for those of us working 33 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 3: on the ground with people on a daily basis, it. 34 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: Is incredibly frustrating actually, and because of the analysis that 35 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: I've read in the last couple of days is that 36 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: they're facing increasing pressure from the far right factions of 37 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: the UK government. This is a labor party that's actually 38 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: brought these this is Salem Seeker system reforms in and 39 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: it is political because they are taking that because the 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: popularity of Nigel Faraga's party and they've decided to go 41 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 2: ahead with this reform, the biggest reform in decades, and 42 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: some of the things I mean, if we look through 43 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: what it will actually mean for asylum seekers and refugees, 44 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: having to get your status renewed, only being able to 45 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 2: become a permanent resident after twenty years, and that's if 46 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: your original country is deemed still deemed unsafe. What would 47 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: you say to someone who is looking at these reforms 48 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: and thinking, oh, New Zealand should do the same. 49 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. 50 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: As you've mentioned, some of these reforms that they're proposing 51 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: are really inconsistent with the protections that both the UK 52 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: and New Zealand's have signed up to. They're inconsistent with 53 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, They're inconsistent with the 54 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: Refugee Convention, both of these that clearly set out the 55 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: right to seek and enjoy asylum from persecution, which set 56 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: out clear definitions of who illegally are considered refugees. These 57 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: instruments are designed to protect people and from the time 58 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: that they were ratified up until today, they are still 59 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: relevant and so putting forward these kind of reforms that 60 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 3: are inconsistent with the law I think is hugely concerning 61 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 3: and what I would say, is this idea of like 62 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 3: a war on illegal migration or the asylum system being 63 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: abused is something that we're hearing in different parts of 64 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: the world, mainly coming from from the rights but it 65 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: has in some way in some countries been able to 66 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 3: trigger fair from people that don't necessarily understand the systems 67 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 3: or the processes. And unfortunately that's where we're most at risk, 68 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 3: when people don't understand and then fall for these kind 69 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 3: of lines about we need we need to control the 70 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: asylum system or illegal migration has gone out of control. 71 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: What we need to do is kind of fight back 72 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: with the data and the evidence. In particular, in a 73 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 3: place like New Zealand's, there isn't this concern of overwhelming 74 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: numbers of people arriving on our shores. 75 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: I mean, we're an. 76 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: Island like the UK, but our geographic location is a 77 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: is a really important factor and not a lot of 78 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 3: people can physically access New Zealand. And then also the 79 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 3: laws and the administrative processes that are required to arrive 80 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 3: in New Zealand shores in the first place are much 81 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 3: more cumbersome, and so the risk of illegal migration in 82 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 3: New Zealand is really really almost non existent, and if 83 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: it does exist, it is such an inconsiderable number, and 84 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 3: it is a number that our authorities and system can 85 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 3: process and handle. 86 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: And it's actually. 87 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: Inconsistent with what a lot of the research and studies 88 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 3: say around the number of people arriving in New Zealand 89 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 3: to seek asylum in the first place. So the kind 90 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: of rhetoric that we're seeing in other parts of the 91 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 3: world don't apply to New Zealand. But also on top 92 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: of that, I think the way New Zealand has considered 93 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: refugee and asylum claims is also at a much much 94 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: smaller scale than the UK and the US and other 95 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: European countries also grapple. 96 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 4: With the Interior Minister Shabana Machmunt outlined what the Labor 97 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 4: government calls the most sweeping reforms in decades, which include 98 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 4: tougher rules on refugee status and new interpretations of human 99 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 4: rights laws aimed at accelerating deportations. There has been growing 100 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 4: public concern over immigration and a surge in support for 101 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 4: the populist Reform UK Party, which is putting pressure on 102 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 4: the government to take a tougher stance. Ministers say the 103 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 4: changes will restore control while critics, including some in the 104 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 4: Labor Party, warn that they risk deepening divisions and weakening 105 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 4: human rights protections. Let's take a listen to some of 106 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 4: what the Interior Minister and Shabanah Mackmud said earlier in 107 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 4: the British Parliament. 108 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 5: What I have said already on these matters is that 109 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 5: we have a proper problem, that it is our moral 110 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 5: duty to fix. Our asylum system is broken. The breaking 111 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 5: of that asylum system is causing huge division across our 112 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 5: whole country. It is a moral mission for me to 113 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 5: resolve that division across our country. I know that the 114 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 5: reforms I will be setting out later on today can 115 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 5: fix this system and in doing so can unite what 116 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 5: is today a divided country. 117 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that in the UK Britain's report, widespread 118 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: satisfaction with the government the cost of living. Obviously, many 119 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: people believe their local areas are housing more asylum seekers 120 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: than is quote unquote fair. What do you think it 121 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: will take for a kind of Does there need to 122 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: be a shift of consciousness here? Will we ever be 123 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: rid of the term us versus them? 124 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: I think there are a number of difference I guess 125 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 3: factors that are relevant in this regard to it, because 126 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 3: I think it's the same in the US and the UK. 127 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: There are populations of people that do have these really 128 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: strong beliefs about the numbers of refugees, or what's fair 129 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: and what's not fair, or what's being done that aren't 130 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: really consistent with the data and evidence. Again, but what 131 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: we've seen, especially in the US, and I would argue 132 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 3: probably similar trends in the UK based on the large 133 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: number of people that we saw show up to protest 134 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: the UK Rwanda deal, is that the majority of people 135 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 3: actually do not think that there is a massive problem 136 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: with migration or asylum seekers to the extent that the 137 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: media or perhaps the politicians make it out to be. 138 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: We saw, for example, in the US and studies done 139 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 3: around the number of people that actually think that the 140 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 3: US refugee settlement program was a good thing more than 141 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 3: fifty percent. I think the statistics were in the late 142 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: sixty something to seventy percent of people thought that it 143 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: was a good program. And similarly, the number of people 144 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: that have consistently shown up in. 145 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:39,479 Speaker 1: The UK. 146 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 3: Do outnumber the people who I think think very negatively 147 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: about asylum. 148 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: Seekers and refugees. 149 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 3: I think the issue here is also the conflation. So 150 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 3: we have a lot of people that perhaps if you 151 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: frame the question in a way around protection and fleeing 152 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 3: persecution and war and you know mass atrocities, are very 153 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: you know, humane in their response and sympathetic, empathetic. It's 154 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 3: that there is this con you know, conflation of migrants 155 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: and refugees. People believe that refugees who who can show 156 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 3: a genuine fear of persecution from their countries, and then 157 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: people who may not have the best circumstances or you know, 158 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: opportunities but are not at risk of harm or persecution 159 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: or you know, torture or death as the extreme cases 160 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 3: may be for refugees in their own countries. And these 161 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: are the migrants. And so there is a different approach 162 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: for people's reactions based on. 163 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: Who those groups of people are. 164 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 3: But like I mentioned, there is a confusion and not 165 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 3: all people understand the difference categories. And I think this 166 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 3: in turn then also I think impacts the policies and 167 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 3: the responses governments take. There are many governments who now 168 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 3: believe that's migration or. 169 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: Movements of people is out. 170 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 3: Of control, and that's something we should think about, you know, 171 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 3: very carefully. It's true that there are a number of 172 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 3: you know, a lot, a lot of people that move 173 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 3: for opportunities who are not refugees, but also that the 174 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 3: migration system and the opportunities, the visa systems, the pathways 175 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: for legal migration has not necessarily kept pace with the trends. 176 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 3: You know, we live in a very different world just 177 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 3: when some of these agreements and documents were created, and 178 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: maybe movement for opportunities and for work wasn't as you know, 179 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: as major, but movement of people has always happened. People 180 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: have always moved for you know, for opportunities, for new lives, 181 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 3: for better lives, for all sorts of different reasons. Is 182 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 3: one of the oldest facts of human history. So it's 183 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: something that countries need to grapple with. But it's not 184 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: a matter of stopping, you know, asylum systems or reforming 185 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 3: asylum systems to address migration, which is something you know, 186 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 3: quite different and requires different responses. 187 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 2: And I see all of this talk about asylum seekers, 188 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: and I mean, obviously we live in a time where 189 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: there are multiple wars happening in the world. We've got 190 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: South Sudan, mianmar Gaza, and of course Ukraine just to 191 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: name a few do you think it's I mean, it 192 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: seems hypocritical when when there is such an influx of 193 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: hatred towards those seeking asylum and then at the same 194 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 2: time cuts to worldwide humanitarian aid on huge scales from 195 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,119 Speaker 2: some of the world's largest powers. 196 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 197 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: I was in Geneva recently at a un eh CR 198 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 3: events and they're the High Commissioner for Refugees was talking 199 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: about the Dyer need for funding because they were ending 200 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 3: this year with a one point three billion shortfall compared 201 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: to last year, a thirty percent workforce reduction, one hundred 202 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: and eighty five officers consolidated or closed. And so what 203 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 3: we see is in the last two years, global humanitarian 204 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 3: funding has collapsed more than fifty three percent, and alone 205 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: just from the US's commitments from fourteen billion plus to 206 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: somewhere around three billion. So it's a major drop in 207 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 3: the global humanitarian funding and what's needed to respond to 208 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: these crises in a lot of these countries actually prioritizing 209 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 3: funding into defense and deterrence policies. Unfortunately, the problem there 210 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 3: is what we've seen over many years is that stopping 211 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: people from accessing safety or accessing borders to seek asylum 212 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: does not stop people from moving. It just means that 213 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: they end up in more dangerous routes or taking more 214 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: dangerous risks to try to seek safety. It doesn't stop 215 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 3: people from trying. It just means that more people die 216 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: in this attempt. So the deterrence policies unfortunately don't have 217 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: the effect that maybe these states policies intend them to have, 218 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: and actually just really really dire. 219 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: Consequences such as we saw recently there. 220 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 3: We're hangar drowning at sea, you know, the number of 221 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: people that are killed in the process, or in the 222 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 3: Darian jungle in Latin America, Central America. 223 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: Accessing these paths. 224 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: People don't stop taking these risks to get their families 225 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: to safety. But unfortunately it does mean that more people die. 226 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 3: And so what I would say then is, on the 227 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: one hand, we know that global humanitarian funding has reached 228 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: you know, probably the lowest point at least in my 229 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 3: recent memory and perhaps for those even working in the 230 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: field longer than I have. And then on the other 231 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: hand hand, we're reaching unprecedented numbers of people who are 232 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: seeking safety from persecution from these wars that you've mentioned. 233 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: Saddan Mia mah Gazda and there are countless others that 234 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 3: are not covered by the media in as much detail, 235 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: but they're definitely impacting millions of people. 236 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: People's responses on the grounds, aren't. 237 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: I think for the most part positive when it comes 238 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 3: to certain certain movements of people or the suffering of 239 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: certain groups of people. But I think again it comes 240 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: down to exposure. There are just you know, some atrocities 241 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: that don't get the same kind of media attention to 242 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: people aren't to where what's happening in those regions or 243 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 3: what kind of atrocities people are subjected to, and so 244 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: there is like a mismatch I think the reality and 245 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: what people are aware of and then on and I 246 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: think the other end is. 247 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: There can be this kind of. 248 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 3: You know, people are also facing still very high cost 249 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: of living challenges of affordability, housing crises in their own 250 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: parts of the world and their own backyards, and so 251 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 3: there can be this kind of us against them mentality 252 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 3: that again I think it's not helpful because really it's 253 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: not an either or or. 254 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: Mutually exclusive considerations. 255 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: But actually, when we're trying to make systems more ethical, 256 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 3: more just more fair for all, it's about all of 257 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: these because I think they all have impacts on another. 258 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: If we've got good policies in our own countries, but 259 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 3: then also our foreign policies are positive and focused on 260 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 3: development and supporting and global responsibility sharing, then we're going 261 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: to have bitter outcomes across the globe. 262 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: They're not mutually exclusive. 263 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 3: What happens in one country, whether on the other side 264 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: of the world, still impacts us, whether we're in New Zealand, 265 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 3: whether we're in the UK, whether we're in the US. 266 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: We just have to, I. 267 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 3: Think, be a bit more conscious of how interconnected our 268 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 3: world really is. 269 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 6: I want to start before we go on to this 270 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 6: speech from Shibonna my mood and how significant it is, 271 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 6: Let's look at what came before, because ultimately the proof 272 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 6: of the pudding is in the eating. Tell us about 273 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 6: the Danish system, and this is a system that was 274 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 6: counter to Scandinavian neighbors. It was seen as deeply tough, 275 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 6: some suggested critics that it was racist. Now appears to 276 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 6: be amongst some, at least the Golden Boy, the Golden 277 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 6: Way forward for migration. 278 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks for having me. 279 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 3: So. 280 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 7: Denmark has had for some time now a sort of 281 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 7: temporary by default approach to refugee protection it. 282 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: Also does a number of other things. It has departure. 283 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 7: Centers to encourage voluntary return or failed asylum seekers. 284 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: It has really. 285 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 7: Strict rules on which refugees can bring in family members. 286 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 7: They have to be self sufficient twenty four years old. 287 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 7: And it's also had some very symbolic laws, including most 288 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 7: famously the jewelry Law, which was brought to in twenty sixteen, 289 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 7: which means please can confiscate asylum seekers cash or valuables 290 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 7: to help pay for their stay in the country. 291 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: You experienced actually living in a refugee camp when you 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 2: were younger. Tell me about that and how that's shaped 293 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: who you were today and what you're in your work. 294 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 3: Obviously, yes, so exactly as you mentioned, people would not 295 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 3: be putting their families at such great risk if the 296 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: reality of staying home were not more dangerous. And I 297 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 3: can speak to this from personal experience. My family fled 298 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: at the time of the Kurdish genocide and then faced 299 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 3: more humans violations and risks to their lives when there 300 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 3: were refugees in Iran as Kurdish minorities. And then so 301 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: we're forced to flee again, and then this time crossing 302 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: the border into Pakistan. A really unpredictable, uncertain journey, not 303 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: knowing what could come next, but just knowing that remaining 304 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 3: where they were was far more dangerous than attempting to 305 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: find safety elsewhere. And so my family arrived in Pakistan 306 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: and sought asylum, and they were granted asylum quite quickly 307 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 3: because of the strong evidence in their case as Kurdish 308 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: minorities who were subject to persecution by not just one 309 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 3: regime but multiple regimes in the region. 310 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: But unfortunately what was challenging. 311 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: Was the process, so from being recognized as genuine refugees 312 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: with a risk of persecution to then the process of 313 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: actually finding a durable solution or a safety in a 314 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 3: pathway to somewhere safe. And so my family ended up 315 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 3: being in Pakistan for ten years, not knowing during that 316 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 3: entire decade whether they would be there a day longer 317 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 3: or a year longer, for ten years longer, just unpredictable waiting. 318 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 3: And so you have these people living in limbo, not 319 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 3: knowing whether they should settle down and build you know, 320 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: routes and start kind of living as if they were 321 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: going to be there forever, or living temporarily thinking that 322 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 3: they will be resettled very shortly afterwards. So what you 323 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 3: get is the people that kind of in between, not 324 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 3: fully settled but not fully ready to leave either and 325 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 3: creating these kind of challenges for me. I was born 326 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 3: in Pakistan when my family had already arrived there. So 327 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 3: my brother and sister older than me, were already with 328 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 3: my parents when they arrived in Pakistan. I was born 329 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 3: in Pakistan, and so you know, lived and experienced life 330 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: as a refugee, not knowing anything different, and so the 331 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 3: kind of circumstances that I was raised in, not having 332 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 3: access to school until you know, a lot of protests 333 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: and people in our community were fighting for the right 334 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: for their children to go to school, not having proper 335 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 3: access to food, water, shelter, clean water on a regular basis, 336 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 3: the kind of really just limited access to what a 337 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: lot of Kiwis would think is normal or you know, 338 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 3: something that they would expect to have, not having access 339 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 3: to those things. 340 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, the daily protests that. 341 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 3: Our family and communities would go to because they just 342 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 3: wanted some sort of clarity on their process and what 343 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 3: was happening and how long would they be waiting, just 344 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: some sort of certainty. And then in addition, to that 345 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 3: people dying from hunger strikes because they were just finding 346 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: that it was just too unbearable for them to sit 347 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 3: and wait, and then taking on these hunger strikes to 348 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 3: just urge the when and countries to respond to the 349 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: dire circumstances, Seeing children die from preventable diseases just because 350 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 3: we didn't have the healthcare that we needed, and all 351 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 3: sorts of really, you know, things that children just should 352 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: should not find is what their daily life looks like. 353 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: I thought those things were normal until I came to 354 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: New Zealand and saw a completely different world. And it 355 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 3: was only then that I realized the life that we'd 356 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 3: been living as refugees was not normal and that it 357 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: was extremely difficult compared to the life that many others 358 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: lived around the world. And so that really shaped my 359 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 3: journey from a very young age, because I had knowledge 360 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: of the denial of rights and basic human needs, the 361 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 3: unpredictability of life, and also on top of that, you know, 362 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: coming from a Kurdish background, to the genocide and human 363 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,239 Speaker 3: rights violations that my family had directly suffered from not 364 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 3: having these kind of rights to exist and to just 365 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 3: be who we are already shaped a lot of my thinking, 366 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: and so I wanted to take advantage of these opportunities 367 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 3: that I had in New Zealand, a place where I 368 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: grew up, where we had it. You know, when I 369 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 3: first arrived in New Zealand, we had a female Prime 370 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 3: Minister who was talking about about things that I had 371 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: never heard before, about the kind of rights that people had, 372 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: and about the kind of you know, the access that 373 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 3: I had at school and the teachers and the attention 374 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 3: that gave people. 375 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: So I was mind blown. 376 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 3: I was like just thinking about what life I had 377 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: and what I had now, and how could I not 378 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: take advantage of it? 379 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: Beautiful, Thank you so much for joining us, Rez. 380 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk 381 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: to here. 382 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 383 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 384 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: a Herald dot co dot Nz. The Front Page is 385 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, who is also 386 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: our editor. 387 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 388 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 389 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 390 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.