WEBVTT - Scam cases surge with increasingly clever tactics 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:06.560 Kiyota. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.840 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:17.040 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It's been 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:21.959 revealed that Kiwi's lost a record three billion dollars to 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:26.239 scams this year. That's a thirty percent increase from two 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:30.400 point three billion last year. Net Safe and the Global 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.600 Anti Scam Alliance State of Scams in New Zealand report 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:39.159 shows that scammers are getting more sophisticated and victims are 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:44.680 facing persistent barriers to reporting and recovering their losses. So 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:49.040 how should we protect ourselves and who should be held accountable? 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.000 Today on the Front Page, netsafe's Sean Lyons is with 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.560 us to break down the latest figures and discuss how 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.000 New Zealand can better prepare itself for the evolving world 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:07.480 of scams. First off, Sean, let's dive into the report. 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.000 How many kiwis have experienced a scam within the last 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:12.880 twelve months. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.600 Well, we're now talking about fairitys to the interest. From 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.039 the figures that we've been able to together, we're saying 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.520 probably close to more than eight percent, So eighty two 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.000 percent from our report are experiencing a scam at some 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.560 point in the last year, So this is not about 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.679 occasional access. And if you kind of extrapolate the figures, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.440 you're probably talking about a person experiencing, you know, over 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.280 one hundred and fifty different scam attempts in a year, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.399 so that this is something that we're seeing regularly. For 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.560 a lot of people, it's probably becoming the norm. So 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.160 this is not something you might go, you know, and 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.240 drop the sandwich when you see it's the kind of 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:52.440 thing that now you're probably saying, okay, here's another one. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.040 And there's there's good things about that, but there's also 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.280 some concerns around it. When things become really normal, when 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.840 we start to become maybe a little bit sort of 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.440 more casual about things, we might become a little bit blase, 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.920 if we're trying to use the French word. And that's 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.280 a concern I think is when we start to feel 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.880 that things are a bit normal, maybe sometimes our guard 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:16.000 goes down. We look for spotting one thing. When the 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.840 scams change a little bit, then perhaps that's where some 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.959 of us are being caught out. So it's definitely much 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.440 more normal, as I say, but it doesn't mean that 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.400 we're all we're all defended against it unfortunately, and we. 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.720 Talk about experiencing scams, it's not actually people who have 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.040 fallen victim to them, but you've just encountered it on 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:36.080 a daily basis. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.760 Yeah. Absolutely, So for some people, that might be that 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:41.680 they're you know, they're sick and tired of getting the 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.160 seventy fifth text in the last two months from to 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.200 say that they owe a toll, or that they've been 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.280 through a tunnel or something, or that there's a parcel 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.800 waiting for them at a post office. That doesn't sound 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.120 quite right. So people will see and spot those that 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.679 that's what we really mean. But in amongst those, there'll 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.280 be some people that experience a much more realistic or 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:05.120 much more plausible message social media, email, whatever it is, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.880 and they'll actually follow through. So somewhere in those numbers 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.720 are unfortunately people who are also falling victims to scams 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:11.960 as well, And. 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.519 Because is that generally the way to go, they cast 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.000 a wide net as wide as possible, and just hope 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.280 someone buy its. Because I got I myself got one 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.560 of those messages saying Hi Mum, I've lost my phone 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.120 or something. It's like, now, I'm not a mother normal, 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.840 i'd probably ever be one so, but there will be 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.880 some mothers that have actually got someone of that age, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.960 perhaps living out of home or living in different country. 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.320 Absolutely so that there is definitely the kind of the 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:44.520 scattergun approach. I suppose there's one way to put it 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.480 that you know, you buy from somewhere, somebody buys from 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.200 somewhere a list of email addresses, it might be narrowed 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.320 down to a country, it may not be, and they 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.760 just fire out an email message or a text message 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.760 or whatever mechanism they've got for contacting people. So there 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.680 are definitely those, but there are also so scams that 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.120 can feel and maybe are a little more targeted. And 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.160 now that's not to say that there's somebody out there 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.040 that's picked on you. You know, that's not someone that 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:12.640 said right today, I'm gonna scam Sean. But what might 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.960 be occurring, we think in some of those situations is 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.119 where there's data out there that might have been leaked 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.880 when somebody broke into a computer system, with a whole 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.120 lot of other sort of generally available information. People can 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.599 piece these things together and then direct a scam that 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.279 might feel an awful lot more targeted. I think that 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.560 the best way might be the difference between getting a 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.040 message from a bank one that you might have heard 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.720 of but don't use, and then getting a message that 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:42.240 comes from a bank that you do use. Now, that 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.919 could either be just luck of the drawer scatter gun, 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.200 or it might be that that particular scam is targeting 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:52.640 customers of a particular organization, And it's those times that 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.640 in both those situations, they can feel a lot more personal. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.560 And when they feel personal, they can often feel a 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.000 lot more real. And that's maybe the first step that 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.240 scammers will go through to try and get us hooked in. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.360 If they can find something that really talks to us 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.920 to use that phrase, then that they're probably over their 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.880 first hurdle. That they're not all the way through the gate, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.440 but they're certainly over the first hurdle. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:17.479 Right. So I've got another example here. I got a 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.479 message from my brother saying is this you or is 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:26.280 our dad getting scammed? The message read, Hi, Dad, messaging 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.280 you from my tablet a sim travel plan. My old 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.760 numbers no longer working since I changed networks. Please reply 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.800 so I can send you my new number. My dad 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:40.760 then replies Oki dokie love you xxx. Now, because he 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.839 has replied that has he ended up on some master 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:48.640 list somewhere where they're like, they've got a live one. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.320 I think that's probably enough to get him categorized in 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.600 a different way, maybe on an existing list. I don't 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.040 think that's single them out for any kind of special treatment. 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.200 But what they're doing there is that they probably have 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.880 just got a whole list of contact details. They're looking 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:05.640 for people that are prepared to respond. Now the fact 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.440 that he has responded and said Okki, love you and 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.160 it was a from dad, maybe someone's going to assume, Okay, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:17.400 here's a contact number that is a dad, and because 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:19.479 they're a dad, maybe they'd be more susceptible to a 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:24.320 sort of parent based scam. So yeah, that's a common 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.440 technique used. It is much more of that scatter gun. 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.080 But again it's the steps that they take to take 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.159 what might be millions of contact details and try and 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:35.400 whittle it down to a smaller number, a more manageable 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.800 number for them, that they can start to have a 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:38.880 more focused attack on. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:46.000 In terms of some common scams, what you've mentioned the tolls, 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.440 the getting a message from your bank, we've messaged my dad, 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:55.040 falling forth, whatever that was. In terms of common ones, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.159 that are going around at the moment. I mean, I 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.000 don't really hear too much of the Nigerian prints anymore. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:01.200 Is he doing all right? 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.560 I think he may have reinvented himself into a retail 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.600 job perhaps because we're certainly seeing a lot more of 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.480 the retail based scam. Look that the mechanism of the 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.600 Nigerian princes what they used to call a four to 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.280 one nine scam because it fitted a Nigerian penal code 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.560 that was covered under this. It's those kinds of investment 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.600 scams are definitely still around. They don't look like they did. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.640 They certainly don't come in on fax rolls, which is 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.400 the scams that I remember back back in the very 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.080 early days, but the mechanisms are the same. We're definitely 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.920 seeing retail scams as the biggest single category. Now. Some 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:41.840 of those might originate in offers that come in by emails. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.480 Some of those might be because people are browsing for 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:50.240 certain products and coming across different sites. Investment scams, so 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:56.920 people offering you get rich quick schemes, prizes, lotteries, grants, 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.760 those kinds of things that the grant for being a 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.320 one full citizen, unfortunately is one that's been around for 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.080 a long time and is still going around because who 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.960 doesn't want to think that their government's identified them as 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.800 just a superb person and are going to get a 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.520 whole lot of money as a result. But there are 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.680 some scams that are constant that those would indicate what 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.520 ones that are. But also what we do see continually 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.360 is the change in what is that that very basic 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.960 scam to have elements of that, but to look very differently. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.200 So probably the greatest example for us over the last 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:35.120 few years is the kind of merging of a romance scam, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.160 a traditional you know, I meet you on a site online, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:43.040 former relationship with you. Originally, romance scams would all then 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.160 be about I need some money because my mother's ill, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.760 or I've been arrested, the things that we're very very 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.200 familiar now, those scams are often rather than pivoting into 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.760 just give me some money, often they're pivoting into I've 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.720 got a great investment opportunity for you, and I've been 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:03.120 in in this cryptocurrency or these shares for a while. 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:07.640 We should invest together like a romantic investment. And so 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.760 they're they're they're using one scam, they're they're piggybacking a 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.320 second one off of it. They are changing their tactics 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.000 depending on what's working now that might be working on 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.360 the individual or from what they know is working generally. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.520 So you know, the mechanisms of scams are very similar 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.600 that the ways in which scammers use them, the scale 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.120 and which they're using them, and I guess the tenacity 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.520 to a lot of to a great extent that that 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.160 scammers are prepared to apply to these things are what's 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:44.000 changing and our indications, unfortunately of the success that they're experiencing, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.480 just how profitable these things are for for for scammers. 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.640 This guy Jeculously came to New Zealand border the plane 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.720 and May last year as part of a crime synder 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.800 gift in. What they were doing was cold calling all 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.520 the victims, mostly elderly, and pretending that they were part 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:08.000 of a COVID police operation trying to catch bad crookeld 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.000 bank staff and counterfeit notes. What they'd do is they 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.880 would send this guy Jack Kennessey over by taxi to 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.680 the elderly people's homes and ask them to have withdrawn 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.200 large sums of money up to twenty thousand dollars, and 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:22.880 they'd hand it over when he used. 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.040 The special code word. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.840 And they managed to get more than three hundred thousand dollars. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.480 Yeah, within the space a day after arriving, within the 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:34.760 space of fourteen days, mister Hennessy had visited twenty one 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.800 residences and he managed to get three hundred and thirty 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.240 seven thousand dollars and none of that money was ever recovered. 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.440 And you mentioned retail scams. What does that entail that 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.240 you pay for something you never get at Basically. 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.120 Yeah, that's probably the biggest one. But there are some 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.760 that you pay for something and what arrives is not 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.960 what you thought. Certainly heard of people purchasing goods and 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:06.280 then photographs of the goods arriving, and so people then saying, well, 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.240 we didn't scam you. You didn't check the fine print 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:11.920 or where people will order one product and then a 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.920 totally worthless and ridiculous other product arrives, and they, rather 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.559 than saying it's a scam, they tried to bury themselves 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.400 in it being a logistics erra or an ordering error 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.480 or a system error. But the majority of them would 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.200 be you know, I'm looking for some sneakers, try and 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.240 find some they are at one price on one site 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.080 that I know really well, and then I come across 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.800 somewhere that's selling them a little bit less or a 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.000 different color that I couldn't get anywhere else, and I 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:39.960 think I'm going to take a risk on that, and 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:42.600 then those products just simply never ever arrive and when 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.760 I go back and try and text some match, and 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.880 the likelihood is that the website or the contact that 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.840 I was dealing with has disappeared into the ether. So 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.520 that that would be the kind of main mechanism of 0:11:56.559 --> 0:12:00.400 retail scam And unfortunately that's hitting quite quite a considerable 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.120 number of New Zealanders this year, as it has in 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:03.880 previous years. 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:10.040 How does New Zealand's scam exposure compare internationally? So are 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.560 we keeping up the pace with global trends or kind 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.800 of falling behind in prevention efforts. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:22.280 I think we are. We are comparable to to lots 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.079 of the countries that that that we talk to. Scamming 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:32.560 is not although the the impacts are very local, it's 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:38.120 it's absolutely a global enterprise. It's a global business. I 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.920 think many of the people that carry out the scams 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:46.920 would have have almost no idea originally where their targets were. 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:50.600 That that that might come that might come over in 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:53.520 the conversations that we have, But I don't think we 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.280 are particularly more vulnerable than than any of the other countries. 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.760 Certainly that that that the netsafe would would talk to 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.760 most countries are facing similar problems, similar losses, but but 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.800 but by population, similar mechanisms. That there's there's lots of 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.280 really great prevention work that goes on, there's lots of 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.800 really great awareness raising that that that goes on. And 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.800 I think you know, when you stop people in the 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.760 streets and if you ask them about the different scams 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.640 that are out there or their experience, they would probably 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.160 be able to tell you, you know, with some detail 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.959 about the scams that they had recognized. And I think 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:31.000 that's a really good sign. But we still see losses. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:35.000 We know that that scammers are becoming increasingly more sophisticated, 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.560 more determined, as I mentioned before, and that means that 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:43.160 the things that we recognized as a scam yesterday. You know, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.040 you mentioned our friend the Prince a while ago that 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.640 you know, anybody that tried to send out a message 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.120 that that that looked like look like one of those scams, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.400 I think you know, most people would recognize that that's 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.240 just not not real, but with a slightly different dressing, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.160 with a slightly different story, with a slightly different mechanism, 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.760 Throw a few websites in, throw a few convincing videos in, 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.560 a few fake news stories from media outlets that look 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.040 real but actually aren't, and a lot of people could 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.120 probably and actually do still lose money to the to 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:24.760 what is basically the same scam, but just looking an 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.680 awful lot looking off a lot different to how it 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.720 might have done. So I think as a nation we 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.560 do a good job both in prevention and awareness, but 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:37.520 unfortunately there's a lot more to it than just prevention 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.080 and awareness. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.640 So that's safe and the Global Anti Scam Alliance recommend 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:48.680 an international network of anti scam centers. How realistic do 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.320 you reckon that is for New Zealand to be a 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:50.720 part of. 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.000 I think it is fairly realistic that there are lots 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.720 of organizations here that that that work in the space. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:02.000 There are lots of organizations who's customers are the targets 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.480 of scams. And you know, like I said before, the 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.920 many nations, most nations, all nations, I imagine, have the 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:15.000 same issue. But it is absolutely a transnational crime. This 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.920 is not There are obviously frauds and scams that go 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.560 on inside New Zealand perpetrated against New Zealanders by New Zealanders, 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:25.880 but the majority of the scams that we're talking about 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.560 are across multiple countries where there are different staging steps 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:34.120 across multiple countries. It breaches laws in different countries, but 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.880 the laws are very different, and so it makes the 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:41.360 kind of the response much harder. International cooperation is a 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.720 huge part of this and is, as we say, I 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.840 think absolutely necessary if we're going to start making significant 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.120 inroads because when the victims here in New Zealand, but 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.560 yet the perpetrators are in Belgium, I have no idea 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.800 why I picked on Belgium, but they just came through 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:01.800 my mind. What that really needs is coordinated effort between 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.359 agencies and organizations in New Zealand and agencies and organizations 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.800 in Belgium to try and get a handle on both 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.600 ends of that problem. And it's that coordination that I 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:17.000 think can reduce the time between when the scams happen 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:22.440 and when we start to get a kind of footholder 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.400 grasp on who's doing it and then try to close 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:29.760 down those operations. Because These things are not about individuals anymore. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.240 This is not somebody in a darkened room with a 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:37.200 hoodie on perpetrating a scam. These are, you know, complex 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:43.000 commercial albeit criminal organizations, organized prime groups that these are 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.480 who are perpetrating these scams at the scale that we're 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:50.320 seeing it, and that requires coordination and cooperation right across 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:50.840 the globe. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.680 I have curated a list of the top one hundred 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.800 scammiest ads I have been served over the past six months, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:00.880 and I bought them off. But I did it to 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.880 answer the age old question, what if it's not a 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.919 scam and it changes my life forever? This is what 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.280 everyone says right before they get scammed. We've got a watch. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.040 You guys are about to see the most epic ad 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:14.840 you've ever seen. 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:19.040 My favorite Carbonox watch is the new X Ranger. Let's 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:20.959 take a look and see how tough it is. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.320 It is able to with stand up to ten pounds 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:25.240 of weights. 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.240 He's making his words longer on purpose to sound cooler. 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.640 It's working. I kind of love this guy. I kind 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.760 of really like that ad. Let's test it if I 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:35.480 can break this thing. I'm not sure I can look 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:41.520 that guy in the eyes anymore. All right, the Olkley's goodness, 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:43.679 it didn't look like this in the ad. This was 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:48.040 eighty dollars form factor. Fire never felt this masculine before, honestly, 0:17:50.440 --> 0:18:03.640 all right, let's try to break it zero stars, bro 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:04.720 Come on, are. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.360 There any groups of people in particular who are susceptible 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.600 to these kind of or any kind of scam? Really? 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.160 I mean, we've got my dad here who immediately set 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.159 told a scammer that he loves them. He is of 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:21.480 the older generation. So but does it affect everyone or 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.480 the older people I suppose more susceptible. It's nicely for 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:27.040 my dad. 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:32.360 It's a really good question. And I think that there's 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.920 a perception. I think a lot of people have a 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:39.200 perception that the older people are more susceptible two scams. 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.240 I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think susceptibility 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.040 comes in the time and the place. It comes from 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.600 the type of scam that's being put before people. I 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.200 think often if there is a type NFL was pushed 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.320 on that with my arm twisted up my back, I'd 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:05.359 say it wasn't about age or demographic or socioeconomic states 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:10.280 of any description. It's probably about capability and confidence. It's 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.960 about people's familiarity with a particular technology. It's about their 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.439 confidence to push back when somebody is putting them under pressure. 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:24.200 It's about their ability to stop thinking and breathe in 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:28.520 those situations and say, hang on, I've got a bad 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:33.160 feeling about this. Something instinctively is wrong, and therefore I'm 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.439 going to say no. Even if the person on the 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:37.360 other end of the scam is saying that they're from 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.960 the police or from the government, or they're threatening them 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.040 in some way, or they in the case of those 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.639 Hello Mum scams that you mentioned before, where you know, 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.919 as those things progress, sometimes what people are hearing is 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.119 that their loved one is in danger or in harm, 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.560 or even in some extreme cases hearing messages directly from 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.560 their loved ones that they're you know, physically being harmed 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.200 at the time. Do we have the capabilities to stop 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.040 and say, you know, is this likely? Is this realistic? 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.359 Can I get somebody else's opinion that they're the people 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.600 who are less likely to be scammed? But there are 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.879 scams that target people that clearly are not older. But 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:22.040 there are target scams that target people who are. If 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:26.080 the right story at the right time when you're in 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.280 the right state of mind, comes across your mailbox or 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:33.239 your phone screen, whatever it might be, any one of 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:37.320 us is susceptible to that scam. And I think it's 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.879 really important that we all remember that none of us 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.680 are scam proof. There could be a scam out there 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.520 that makes you think, oh this is real, or oh 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:47.880 I must act. You may not have seen it yet, 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:50.600 and great if you haven't. But thinking that that any 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:52.679 of us are immune because of how old we are, 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:56.640 where we live, or what platforms were on is probably 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:57.399 risky thinking. 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.200 And I suppose that we should all be on our guard. 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.280 Given Black Friday sales are coming up, it must just 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.240 be scam Christmas times. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.440 It's nearly as big as Christmas time. You're right, it is. 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.560 It is scam Christmas time, and you know, scam operations 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.000 know that this is one of those times of the 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:24.240 year when people are probably more active in online retail 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:28.879 and they definitely definitely take advantage of that, and you know, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.840 for the reason that people maybe are more likely to 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:35.720 be buying things, but also because it's a time that 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:40.400 we're all probably that little bit more bombarded with messaging 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.680 from legitimate organizations that creates a kind of fog, if 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.560 you like, of those sort of offers and makes it 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:50.679 a little harder I think for all of us to 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.919 discern and differentiate the the what's real from what's not. 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:02.040 And scammers will absolutely jump on that that that moment, 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.440 those times where they think maybe that might be enough 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:08.959 just to push Somebody who was cautious on Thursday are 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:10.640 going to be a little bit less cautious on Black 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.800 Friday because they're so chasing hard for that stainlessteel frymepan 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:18.040 And if someone suddenly puts that offer in front of me, 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.680 then then maybe I'm going to take the risks. So 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:23.119 it is definitely a busy time for the scammers, and 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.880 Christmas will will be too. The unfortunate thing that means 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.200 it's also going to be a really disappointing time for 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.280 a number of New Zealanders when those things just don't 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:32.760 turn up. 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.159 Well, I know what you want for Christmas now, Sean, 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:42.120 thanks for joining us, no problem at all. That's it 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:45.359 for this episode of the Front Page. You can read 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.840 more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.760 dot co dot enz. The Front Page is produced by 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.280 Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:02.399