1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It's been 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: revealed that Kiwi's lost a record three billion dollars to 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: scams this year. That's a thirty percent increase from two 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: point three billion last year. Net Safe and the Global 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: Anti Scam Alliance State of Scams in New Zealand report 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 2: shows that scammers are getting more sophisticated and victims are 9 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: facing persistent barriers to reporting and recovering their losses. So 10 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: how should we protect ourselves and who should be held accountable? 11 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, netsafe's Sean Lyons is with 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: us to break down the latest figures and discuss how 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: New Zealand can better prepare itself for the evolving world 14 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: of scams. First off, Sean, let's dive into the report. 15 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: How many kiwis have experienced a scam within the last 16 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: twelve months. 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 3: Well, we're now talking about fairitys to the interest. From 18 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 3: the figures that we've been able to together, we're saying 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: probably close to more than eight percent, So eighty two 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: percent from our report are experiencing a scam at some 21 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: point in the last year, So this is not about 22 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 3: occasional access. And if you kind of extrapolate the figures, 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: you're probably talking about a person experiencing, you know, over 24 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty different scam attempts in a year, 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 3: so that this is something that we're seeing regularly. For 26 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: a lot of people, it's probably becoming the norm. So 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 3: this is not something you might go, you know, and 28 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 3: drop the sandwich when you see it's the kind of 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: thing that now you're probably saying, okay, here's another one. 30 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 3: And there's there's good things about that, but there's also 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: some concerns around it. When things become really normal, when 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: we start to become maybe a little bit sort of 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: more casual about things, we might become a little bit blase, 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 3: if we're trying to use the French word. And that's 35 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: a concern I think is when we start to feel 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: that things are a bit normal, maybe sometimes our guard 37 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: goes down. We look for spotting one thing. When the 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 3: scams change a little bit, then perhaps that's where some 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 3: of us are being caught out. So it's definitely much 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: more normal, as I say, but it doesn't mean that 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: we're all we're all defended against it unfortunately, and we. 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: Talk about experiencing scams, it's not actually people who have 43 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: fallen victim to them, but you've just encountered it on 44 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: a daily basis. 45 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So for some people, that might be that 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: they're you know, they're sick and tired of getting the 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: seventy fifth text in the last two months from to 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: say that they owe a toll, or that they've been 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 3: through a tunnel or something, or that there's a parcel 50 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 3: waiting for them at a post office. That doesn't sound 51 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 3: quite right. So people will see and spot those that 52 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 3: that's what we really mean. But in amongst those, there'll 53 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: be some people that experience a much more realistic or 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 3: much more plausible message social media, email, whatever it is, 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: and they'll actually follow through. So somewhere in those numbers 56 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: are unfortunately people who are also falling victims to scams 57 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: as well, And. 58 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 2: Because is that generally the way to go, they cast 59 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: a wide net as wide as possible, and just hope 60 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: someone buy its. Because I got I myself got one 61 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: of those messages saying Hi Mum, I've lost my phone 62 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: or something. It's like, now, I'm not a mother normal, 63 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: i'd probably ever be one so, but there will be 64 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: some mothers that have actually got someone of that age, 65 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: perhaps living out of home or living in different country. 66 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely so that there is definitely the kind of the 67 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: scattergun approach. I suppose there's one way to put it 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 3: that you know, you buy from somewhere, somebody buys from 69 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: somewhere a list of email addresses, it might be narrowed 70 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: down to a country, it may not be, and they 71 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 3: just fire out an email message or a text message 72 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: or whatever mechanism they've got for contacting people. So there 73 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: are definitely those, but there are also so scams that 74 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 3: can feel and maybe are a little more targeted. And 75 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: now that's not to say that there's somebody out there 76 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: that's picked on you. You know, that's not someone that 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: said right today, I'm gonna scam Sean. But what might 78 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: be occurring, we think in some of those situations is 79 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,119 Speaker 3: where there's data out there that might have been leaked 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: when somebody broke into a computer system, with a whole 81 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 3: lot of other sort of generally available information. People can 82 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 3: piece these things together and then direct a scam that 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 3: might feel an awful lot more targeted. I think that 84 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 3: the best way might be the difference between getting a 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 3: message from a bank one that you might have heard 86 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: of but don't use, and then getting a message that 87 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: comes from a bank that you do use. Now, that 88 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 3: could either be just luck of the drawer scatter gun, 89 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 3: or it might be that that particular scam is targeting 90 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 3: customers of a particular organization, And it's those times that 91 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: in both those situations, they can feel a lot more personal. 92 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 3: And when they feel personal, they can often feel a 93 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: lot more real. And that's maybe the first step that 94 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: scammers will go through to try and get us hooked in. 95 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 3: If they can find something that really talks to us 96 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 3: to use that phrase, then that they're probably over their 97 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: first hurdle. That they're not all the way through the gate, 98 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: but they're certainly over the first hurdle. 99 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 2: Right. So I've got another example here. I got a 100 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: message from my brother saying is this you or is 101 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: our dad getting scammed? The message read, Hi, Dad, messaging 102 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 2: you from my tablet a sim travel plan. My old 103 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: numbers no longer working since I changed networks. Please reply 104 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: so I can send you my new number. My dad 105 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: then replies Oki dokie love you xxx. Now, because he 106 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: has replied that has he ended up on some master 107 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 2: list somewhere where they're like, they've got a live one. 108 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 3: I think that's probably enough to get him categorized in 109 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 3: a different way, maybe on an existing list. I don't 110 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: think that's single them out for any kind of special treatment. 111 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: But what they're doing there is that they probably have 112 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: just got a whole list of contact details. They're looking 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: for people that are prepared to respond. Now the fact 114 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: that he has responded and said Okki, love you and 115 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 3: it was a from dad, maybe someone's going to assume, Okay, 116 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: here's a contact number that is a dad, and because 117 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: they're a dad, maybe they'd be more susceptible to a 118 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 3: sort of parent based scam. So yeah, that's a common 119 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: technique used. It is much more of that scatter gun. 120 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 3: But again it's the steps that they take to take 121 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 3: what might be millions of contact details and try and 122 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: whittle it down to a smaller number, a more manageable 123 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: number for them, that they can start to have a 124 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 3: more focused attack on. 125 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 2: In terms of some common scams, what you've mentioned the tolls, 126 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: the getting a message from your bank, we've messaged my dad, 127 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: falling forth, whatever that was. In terms of common ones, 128 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: that are going around at the moment. I mean, I 129 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: don't really hear too much of the Nigerian prints anymore. 130 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: Is he doing all right? 131 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: I think he may have reinvented himself into a retail 132 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 3: job perhaps because we're certainly seeing a lot more of 133 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: the retail based scam. Look that the mechanism of the 134 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: Nigerian princes what they used to call a four to 135 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: one nine scam because it fitted a Nigerian penal code 136 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 3: that was covered under this. It's those kinds of investment 137 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: scams are definitely still around. They don't look like they did. 138 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 3: They certainly don't come in on fax rolls, which is 139 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: the scams that I remember back back in the very 140 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: early days, but the mechanisms are the same. We're definitely 141 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: seeing retail scams as the biggest single category. Now. Some 142 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 3: of those might originate in offers that come in by emails. 143 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 3: Some of those might be because people are browsing for 144 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: certain products and coming across different sites. Investment scams, so 145 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 3: people offering you get rich quick schemes, prizes, lotteries, grants, 146 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 3: those kinds of things that the grant for being a 147 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: one full citizen, unfortunately is one that's been around for 148 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 3: a long time and is still going around because who 149 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 3: doesn't want to think that their government's identified them as 150 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: just a superb person and are going to get a 151 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 3: whole lot of money as a result. But there are 152 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: some scams that are constant that those would indicate what 153 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: ones that are. But also what we do see continually 154 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: is the change in what is that that very basic 155 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: scam to have elements of that, but to look very differently. 156 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: So probably the greatest example for us over the last 157 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: few years is the kind of merging of a romance scam, 158 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 3: a traditional you know, I meet you on a site online, 159 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 3: former relationship with you. Originally, romance scams would all then 160 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: be about I need some money because my mother's ill, 161 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: or I've been arrested, the things that we're very very 162 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 3: familiar now, those scams are often rather than pivoting into 163 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: just give me some money, often they're pivoting into I've 164 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: got a great investment opportunity for you, and I've been 165 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: in in this cryptocurrency or these shares for a while. 166 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: We should invest together like a romantic investment. And so 167 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 3: they're they're they're using one scam, they're they're piggybacking a 168 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 3: second one off of it. They are changing their tactics 169 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: depending on what's working now that might be working on 170 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 3: the individual or from what they know is working generally. 171 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 3: So you know, the mechanisms of scams are very similar 172 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: that the ways in which scammers use them, the scale 173 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 3: and which they're using them, and I guess the tenacity 174 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 3: to a lot of to a great extent that that 175 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: scammers are prepared to apply to these things are what's 176 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 3: changing and our indications, unfortunately of the success that they're experiencing, 177 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: just how profitable these things are for for for scammers. 178 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: This guy Jeculously came to New Zealand border the plane 179 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: and May last year as part of a crime synder 180 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: gift in. What they were doing was cold calling all 181 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: the victims, mostly elderly, and pretending that they were part 182 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: of a COVID police operation trying to catch bad crookeld 183 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: bank staff and counterfeit notes. What they'd do is they 184 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: would send this guy Jack Kennessey over by taxi to 185 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: the elderly people's homes and ask them to have withdrawn 186 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: large sums of money up to twenty thousand dollars, and 187 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: they'd hand it over when he used. 188 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: The special code word. 189 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: And they managed to get more than three hundred thousand dollars. 190 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, within the space a day after arriving, within the 191 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: space of fourteen days, mister Hennessy had visited twenty one 192 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: residences and he managed to get three hundred and thirty 193 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: seven thousand dollars and none of that money was ever recovered. 194 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: And you mentioned retail scams. What does that entail that 195 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: you pay for something you never get at Basically. 196 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's probably the biggest one. But there are some 197 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: that you pay for something and what arrives is not 198 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: what you thought. Certainly heard of people purchasing goods and 199 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 3: then photographs of the goods arriving, and so people then saying, well, 200 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: we didn't scam you. You didn't check the fine print 201 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: or where people will order one product and then a 202 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: totally worthless and ridiculous other product arrives, and they, rather 203 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 3: than saying it's a scam, they tried to bury themselves 204 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: in it being a logistics erra or an ordering error 205 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: or a system error. But the majority of them would 206 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 3: be you know, I'm looking for some sneakers, try and 207 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: find some they are at one price on one site 208 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: that I know really well, and then I come across 209 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 3: somewhere that's selling them a little bit less or a 210 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: different color that I couldn't get anywhere else, and I 211 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 3: think I'm going to take a risk on that, and 212 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: then those products just simply never ever arrive and when 213 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: I go back and try and text some match, and 214 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: the likelihood is that the website or the contact that 215 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 3: I was dealing with has disappeared into the ether. So 216 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 3: that that would be the kind of main mechanism of 217 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: retail scam And unfortunately that's hitting quite quite a considerable 218 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: number of New Zealanders this year, as it has in 219 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: previous years. 220 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: How does New Zealand's scam exposure compare internationally? So are 221 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: we keeping up the pace with global trends or kind 222 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: of falling behind in prevention efforts. 223 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 3: I think we are. We are comparable to to lots 224 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 3: of the countries that that that we talk to. Scamming 225 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: is not although the the impacts are very local, it's 226 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: it's absolutely a global enterprise. It's a global business. I 227 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: think many of the people that carry out the scams 228 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: would have have almost no idea originally where their targets were. 229 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 3: That that that might come that might come over in 230 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 3: the conversations that we have, But I don't think we 231 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 3: are particularly more vulnerable than than any of the other countries. 232 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: Certainly that that that the netsafe would would talk to 233 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: most countries are facing similar problems, similar losses, but but 234 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: but by population, similar mechanisms. That there's there's lots of 235 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: really great prevention work that goes on, there's lots of 236 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: really great awareness raising that that that goes on. And 237 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 3: I think you know, when you stop people in the 238 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: streets and if you ask them about the different scams 239 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: that are out there or their experience, they would probably 240 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 3: be able to tell you, you know, with some detail 241 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: about the scams that they had recognized. And I think 242 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 3: that's a really good sign. But we still see losses. 243 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 3: We know that that scammers are becoming increasingly more sophisticated, 244 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: more determined, as I mentioned before, and that means that 245 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 3: the things that we recognized as a scam yesterday. You know, 246 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: you mentioned our friend the Prince a while ago that 247 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 3: you know, anybody that tried to send out a message 248 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 3: that that that looked like look like one of those scams, 249 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 3: I think you know, most people would recognize that that's 250 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 3: just not not real, but with a slightly different dressing, 251 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 3: with a slightly different story, with a slightly different mechanism, 252 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: Throw a few websites in, throw a few convincing videos in, 253 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 3: a few fake news stories from media outlets that look 254 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: real but actually aren't, and a lot of people could 255 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: probably and actually do still lose money to the to 256 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 3: what is basically the same scam, but just looking an 257 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 3: awful lot looking off a lot different to how it 258 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: might have done. So I think as a nation we 259 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: do a good job both in prevention and awareness, but 260 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: unfortunately there's a lot more to it than just prevention 261 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 3: and awareness. 262 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: So that's safe and the Global Anti Scam Alliance recommend 263 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: an international network of anti scam centers. How realistic do 264 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: you reckon that is for New Zealand to be a 265 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: part of. 266 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: I think it is fairly realistic that there are lots 267 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 3: of organizations here that that that work in the space. 268 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: There are lots of organizations who's customers are the targets 269 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: of scams. And you know, like I said before, the 270 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 3: many nations, most nations, all nations, I imagine, have the 271 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: same issue. But it is absolutely a transnational crime. This 272 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 3: is not There are obviously frauds and scams that go 273 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: on inside New Zealand perpetrated against New Zealanders by New Zealanders, 274 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: but the majority of the scams that we're talking about 275 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 3: are across multiple countries where there are different staging steps 276 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: across multiple countries. It breaches laws in different countries, but 277 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 3: the laws are very different, and so it makes the 278 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: kind of the response much harder. International cooperation is a 279 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: huge part of this and is, as we say, I 280 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 3: think absolutely necessary if we're going to start making significant 281 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: inroads because when the victims here in New Zealand, but 282 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: yet the perpetrators are in Belgium, I have no idea 283 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: why I picked on Belgium, but they just came through 284 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: my mind. What that really needs is coordinated effort between 285 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,359 Speaker 3: agencies and organizations in New Zealand and agencies and organizations 286 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 3: in Belgium to try and get a handle on both 287 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: ends of that problem. And it's that coordination that I 288 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 3: think can reduce the time between when the scams happen 289 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: and when we start to get a kind of footholder 290 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: grasp on who's doing it and then try to close 291 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 3: down those operations. Because These things are not about individuals anymore. 292 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 3: This is not somebody in a darkened room with a 293 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: hoodie on perpetrating a scam. These are, you know, complex 294 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 3: commercial albeit criminal organizations, organized prime groups that these are 295 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: who are perpetrating these scams at the scale that we're 296 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 3: seeing it, and that requires coordination and cooperation right across 297 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: the globe. 298 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 4: I have curated a list of the top one hundred 299 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: scammiest ads I have been served over the past six months, 300 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 4: and I bought them off. But I did it to 301 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 4: answer the age old question, what if it's not a 302 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 4: scam and it changes my life forever? This is what 303 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: everyone says right before they get scammed. We've got a watch. 304 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 4: You guys are about to see the most epic ad 305 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 4: you've ever seen. 306 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: My favorite Carbonox watch is the new X Ranger. Let's 307 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 3: take a look and see how tough it is. 308 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: It is able to with stand up to ten pounds 309 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: of weights. 310 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 4: He's making his words longer on purpose to sound cooler. 311 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 4: It's working. I kind of love this guy. I kind 312 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 4: of really like that ad. Let's test it if I 313 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 4: can break this thing. I'm not sure I can look 314 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 4: that guy in the eyes anymore. All right, the Olkley's goodness, 315 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 4: it didn't look like this in the ad. This was 316 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 4: eighty dollars form factor. Fire never felt this masculine before, honestly, 317 00:17:50,440 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 4: all right, let's try to break it zero stars, bro 318 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 4: Come on, are. 319 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 2: There any groups of people in particular who are susceptible 320 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: to these kind of or any kind of scam? Really? 321 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 2: I mean, we've got my dad here who immediately set 322 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: told a scammer that he loves them. He is of 323 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 2: the older generation. So but does it affect everyone or 324 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: the older people I suppose more susceptible. It's nicely for 325 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 2: my dad. 326 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 3: It's a really good question. And I think that there's 327 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 3: a perception. I think a lot of people have a 328 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 3: perception that the older people are more susceptible two scams. 329 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 3: I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think susceptibility 330 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: comes in the time and the place. It comes from 331 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: the type of scam that's being put before people. I 332 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 3: think often if there is a type NFL was pushed 333 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 3: on that with my arm twisted up my back, I'd 334 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 3: say it wasn't about age or demographic or socioeconomic states 335 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 3: of any description. It's probably about capability and confidence. It's 336 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 3: about people's familiarity with a particular technology. It's about their 337 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 3: confidence to push back when somebody is putting them under pressure. 338 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 3: It's about their ability to stop thinking and breathe in 339 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: those situations and say, hang on, I've got a bad 340 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: feeling about this. Something instinctively is wrong, and therefore I'm 341 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 3: going to say no. Even if the person on the 342 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 3: other end of the scam is saying that they're from 343 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 3: the police or from the government, or they're threatening them 344 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: in some way, or they in the case of those 345 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 3: Hello Mum scams that you mentioned before, where you know, 346 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 3: as those things progress, sometimes what people are hearing is 347 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 3: that their loved one is in danger or in harm, 348 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 3: or even in some extreme cases hearing messages directly from 349 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 3: their loved ones that they're you know, physically being harmed 350 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 3: at the time. Do we have the capabilities to stop 351 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 3: and say, you know, is this likely? Is this realistic? 352 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 3: Can I get somebody else's opinion that they're the people 353 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 3: who are less likely to be scammed? But there are 354 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 3: scams that target people that clearly are not older. But 355 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 3: there are target scams that target people who are. If 356 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: the right story at the right time when you're in 357 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: the right state of mind, comes across your mailbox or 358 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,239 Speaker 3: your phone screen, whatever it might be, any one of 359 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: us is susceptible to that scam. And I think it's 360 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 3: really important that we all remember that none of us 361 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 3: are scam proof. There could be a scam out there 362 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: that makes you think, oh this is real, or oh 363 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 3: I must act. You may not have seen it yet, 364 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: and great if you haven't. But thinking that that any 365 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: of us are immune because of how old we are, 366 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 3: where we live, or what platforms were on is probably 367 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 3: risky thinking. 368 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: And I suppose that we should all be on our guard. 369 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: Given Black Friday sales are coming up, it must just 370 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: be scam Christmas times. 371 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 3: It's nearly as big as Christmas time. You're right, it is. 372 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 3: It is scam Christmas time, and you know, scam operations 373 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 3: know that this is one of those times of the 374 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 3: year when people are probably more active in online retail 375 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 3: and they definitely definitely take advantage of that, and you know, 376 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: for the reason that people maybe are more likely to 377 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 3: be buying things, but also because it's a time that 378 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 3: we're all probably that little bit more bombarded with messaging 379 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 3: from legitimate organizations that creates a kind of fog, if 380 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: you like, of those sort of offers and makes it 381 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 3: a little harder I think for all of us to 382 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 3: discern and differentiate the the what's real from what's not. 383 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 3: And scammers will absolutely jump on that that that moment, 384 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 3: those times where they think maybe that might be enough 385 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 3: just to push Somebody who was cautious on Thursday are 386 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 3: going to be a little bit less cautious on Black 387 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: Friday because they're so chasing hard for that stainlessteel frymepan 388 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: And if someone suddenly puts that offer in front of me, 389 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 3: then then maybe I'm going to take the risks. So 390 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 3: it is definitely a busy time for the scammers, and 391 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 3: Christmas will will be too. The unfortunate thing that means 392 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 3: it's also going to be a really disappointing time for 393 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: a number of New Zealanders when those things just don't 394 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: turn up. 395 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: Well, I know what you want for Christmas now, Sean, 396 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 2: thanks for joining us, no problem at all. That's it 397 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 2: for this episode of the Front Page. You can read 398 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: more about today's stories and extensive news coverage at enziherld 399 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: dot co dot enz. The Front Page is produced by 400 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 2: Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 401 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Danielscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or 402 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for 403 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: another look behind the headlines.