WEBVTT - What went wrong with New Zealand’s smoke-free dream?

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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<v Speaker 2>daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Remember when

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<v Speaker 2>we were meant to be smoke free by twenty twenty five?

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<v Speaker 3>New Zealand's goal.

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<v Speaker 2>To have fewer than five percent of people smoking by

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the year looks unlikely to be met.

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<v Speaker 3>The target was introduced in twenty ten, and while.

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<v Speaker 2>Smoking has dropped significantly since then, from sixteen point four

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<v Speaker 2>percent and twenty eleven, for example, to six point nine

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<v Speaker 2>percent in twenty twenty three twenty four, there are still

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<v Speaker 2>hundreds of thousands of people in Altaioa smoking every day.

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<v Speaker 2>In December twenty twenty two, New Zealand enacted world leading

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<v Speaker 2>tobacco control legislation, essentially creating a whole generation who'll never

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<v Speaker 2>be able to buy a pack of cigis.

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<v Speaker 3>But with that up in smoke, what's next?

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<v Speaker 1>Today?

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<v Speaker 2>On the front Page, hard by teh Or, Chief Operating

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<v Speaker 2>Officer Jackson Alexander is with us to discuss how we

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<v Speaker 2>might be able to reach our goal of being smoke free. So, Jason,

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<v Speaker 2>what do our smoking statistics look like at the moment?

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<v Speaker 1>So it is twenty twenty five, obviously a big year

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<v Speaker 1>for us. We've been aiming for five percent smoking rates

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<v Speaker 1>across all of our populations, but we're not quite there.

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<v Speaker 1>We won't know the official end of year data until

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<v Speaker 1>next year. But the last rates we had was sitting

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<v Speaker 1>just shy of seven percent for all populations, and unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>our Mary and Pacific rates are much higher than that.

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<v Speaker 3>What are the rates for Mali and PACIFICA.

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<v Speaker 1>So last measure we had fourteen point seven percent for Mardi,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the highest, and our Pacific final are not far

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<v Speaker 1>behind us, sitting on just over twelve percent twelve point

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<v Speaker 1>three percent.

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<v Speaker 3>What do you think the reasoning is behind that?

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<v Speaker 1>There's a whole lot of reasons. We started off higher

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<v Speaker 1>to start, so, before we embarked on this journey of

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<v Speaker 1>trying to drive towards this twenty twenty five goal, that

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<v Speaker 1>Mary and Pacific rates were much higher. They were slower

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<v Speaker 1>to move in the beginning, although they have accelerated over

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<v Speaker 1>the last few years. But yeah, there's a whole lot

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<v Speaker 1>of historical reasons why Mary and Pacific rates have traditionally

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<v Speaker 1>been higher than the rest of the population.

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<v Speaker 3>Are we continuing to trend downwards or do you think

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<v Speaker 3>the statistics have really stagnated in recent years.

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<v Speaker 1>So the MARTI rates actually have been dropping quite a

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<v Speaker 1>bit over the last sort of five ten years, I guess,

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<v Speaker 1>but the general pop rates have there was little, well

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<v Speaker 1>basically no change. I think it might have gone up

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<v Speaker 1>a point one of a percent between the last two years.

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<v Speaker 1>So it is tricky to know until we get this

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<v Speaker 1>year's data, which will which will drop next year.

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<v Speaker 2>Recent figures I saw a show about three hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 2>daily smokers remain. What do you see is the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>challenges of getting those numbers down, especially by the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the year.

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<v Speaker 1>Look, it's yeah, by the end of the year is

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<v Speaker 1>really tricky. So that's a lot of people that have

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<v Speaker 1>to quit. Just for Mary alone, I think it's about

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<v Speaker 1>sixty two thousand that we need to see quit smoking

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<v Speaker 1>over the course of this year. Just to put that in perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>we're getting about ten to eleven thousand quit each year

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<v Speaker 1>based on recent trends, so it's huge. It's based off

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<v Speaker 1>that it's pretty obvious that we're not going to get there,

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<v Speaker 1>definitely not for all populations. We are still hopeful that

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<v Speaker 1>we'll get there for the general population, but definitely not

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<v Speaker 1>for Mariya and Pacific only something drastic changes over the

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<v Speaker 1>next couple of months, or something's happened that we're not

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<v Speaker 1>aware of over the past year, And.

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<v Speaker 2>What are some of the biggest challenges there for those

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<v Speaker 2>last remaining three hundred thousand.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose yeah. I mean, it's an addictive product, so

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think we should skirt around that. Neicatines are

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<v Speaker 1>highly addictive. It's tricky to get off. A lot of

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<v Speaker 1>people have tried, a lot of people sort of try

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<v Speaker 1>and come back, to come back and try again. But

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<v Speaker 1>it really does get us hooks into you, I guess,

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<v Speaker 1>and it really is a tricky one to quite I

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<v Speaker 1>feel it was easy. Then the numbers wouldn't be this high,

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<v Speaker 1>tobacco industry wouldn't be this large, and we wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>five thousand New Zealanders dying from tobacco related illness every year.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you reckon?

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<v Speaker 2>I know that because excise tax has gone up over

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<v Speaker 2>the years, right, and it's now really really expensive to

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<v Speaker 2>buy a pack of smokes at the dairy. I used

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<v Speaker 2>to actually be a smoke in my early twenties, and

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<v Speaker 2>I remember when the packets went up from I think

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<v Speaker 2>it was like twenty bucks to twenty five bucks. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's you know, in my early twenties wasn't earning a

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<v Speaker 2>whole much bunch of money. So that's when I kind

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<v Speaker 2>of tape it off and thought, right, I need to

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<v Speaker 2>change what I'm doing because I just don't have the money.

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<v Speaker 2>So those people who still smoking today are spending about

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<v Speaker 2>fifty bucks a packet, say, that's obviously not stopping them.

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<v Speaker 2>The price isn't stopping them. Hey, so do you reckon

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<v Speaker 2>we've kind of reached the ceiling I suppose in excise taxes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, cigarets are very expensive. What we do have to do, though,

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<v Speaker 1>is make sure that we are increasing them in line

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<v Speaker 1>with everything else. Otherwise, relatively they become cheaper. So we

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<v Speaker 1>don't want them to become cheaper in relation to other

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<v Speaker 1>products because that could sort of drive demand the other way.

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<v Speaker 1>But certainly, I know in the early days we did

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<v Speaker 1>get some good gains through the rising of the prices

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<v Speaker 1>of cigarettes to drive a lot of people to try

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<v Speaker 1>and quit. But once again, it's such an addictive product

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<v Speaker 1>that it's not that easy. So, yes, that is costing

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<v Speaker 1>smokers a lot of money. They obviously would much rather

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<v Speaker 1>have the money in their back pocket. But because it's

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<v Speaker 1>such an addictive product, it's not that simple.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's also the situation of illicit tobacco coming through

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<v Speaker 2>that we've got to worry about now as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Ay, and it's hard to get engaged on exactly how

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<v Speaker 1>big that is. We've got one of the best customs

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<v Speaker 1>in the world here in New Zealand. Our borders are

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<v Speaker 1>pretty tight. So yeah, whenever you increase the price of

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<v Speaker 1>something and something, especially when it's addictive like this, then

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<v Speaker 1>you are going to see people try to bring it

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<v Speaker 1>through other means, to try and dose those excise taxes

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<v Speaker 1>and try and get them to people who require them

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<v Speaker 1>because they're are so addicted through other means.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>So we can probably agree that the smoke free twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty five goal is not going to be hit right.

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<v Speaker 2>It's twenty twenty five now, obviously, But when they envisioned

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<v Speaker 2>it in twenty ten, do you think it was overly

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<v Speaker 2>ambitious then, or if we made the right steps, could

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<v Speaker 2>we have actually achieved it by the end of this year.

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<v Speaker 1>It was ambitious, without a doubt, but it was ambitious

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<v Speaker 1>because it needed to be. It is the biggest killer

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<v Speaker 1>here in New Zealand. It's not something that you can

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<v Speaker 1>sort of lightfoot around and just hope it gets better.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to sort of go after it aggressively. And

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<v Speaker 1>it was so embedded within within our society, I guess

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<v Speaker 1>that we needed these big steps to try and get

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<v Speaker 1>rid of it and start reducing some of the harm

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<v Speaker 1>that our communities have experienced over the years from it. So, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>it was it was super optimistic, but there were some

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<v Speaker 1>steps in there that could have got us there.

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<v Speaker 3>And what are some of those steps?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, probably the probably the big three are

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<v Speaker 1>the ones that were in the Curcal legislation that were proposed.

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<v Speaker 1>They were a little bit late to the table, but

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<v Speaker 1>they were three sort of I guess, just logical things

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<v Speaker 1>that would have made a huge difference. So, first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>making cigarettes less addictive. That obviously is going to make

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<v Speaker 1>if people try cigarettes and they're less likely to get

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<v Speaker 1>addicted to them, and if they want to try and

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<v Speaker 1>get rid of them, then it's going to make it

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<v Speaker 1>a bit easier for them to move on from cigarettes.

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<v Speaker 1>Can reducing the number of outlets. You can get cigarettes

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere here, Every single area has got them. Some streets

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<v Speaker 1>have got three dairies and all of them will have

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<v Speaker 1>cigarettes like that's totally unnecessary. If we look at the

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<v Speaker 1>saturation of tobacco outlets, particular and ow in some of

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<v Speaker 1>our poorer, our underserved communities, then there's even more there

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<v Speaker 1>than there are now more affluent suburbs, and the smoking

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<v Speaker 1>rates in those suburbs, which are mostly Malori and Pacific

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<v Speaker 1>suburbs by the way, are reflective of those So reducing

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<v Speaker 1>those numbers right down just to make them less available

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<v Speaker 1>and less prevalent in our communities would have made a

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<v Speaker 1>huge difference. And the third would have was the smoke

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<v Speaker 1>free generation measure, which would have stopped anyone born I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was jan one, two thousand and nine. They

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<v Speaker 1>never would have been able to buy cigarettes so progressively

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<v Speaker 1>increasing their age, and that would have made a huge difference.

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<v Speaker 1>It would have obviously cut off the flow of new

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<v Speaker 1>smokers coming in, so then we can just focus on

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<v Speaker 1>looking after those that currently smoked. And I would have

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<v Speaker 1>made particularly a huge difference for Mardi communities, which we

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<v Speaker 1>know Mali population is a lot younger than the general population,

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<v Speaker 1>so it would have it would have been a game change.

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<v Speaker 1>Of those three well, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Made international headlines when it was first announced. We were

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<v Speaker 2>seen as being world leading, but then it was scrapped

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<v Speaker 2>obviously last year.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you reckon that was a huge mistake?

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<v Speaker 1>Look, I think it was. There was some some people

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<v Speaker 1>flagged the difficulties around sort of putting some of these

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<v Speaker 1>things through, and I just think it would have been

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<v Speaker 1>with it once again, like it was, they were aspirational,

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<v Speaker 1>there were world leading policies. There wasn't evidence a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of evidence for them because we were literally the first

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<v Speaker 1>in the world, so we were trying something different, but

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<v Speaker 1>we were doing it for a good reason, because we

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<v Speaker 1>were trying to get rid of this incitious product from

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<v Speaker 1>from Altiora. So yeah, I honestly do think it was

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<v Speaker 1>a big mistake to get rid of those and I

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<v Speaker 1>think we should still look at those or some very

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<v Speaker 1>on those three areas that we need to do if

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to shift this.

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<v Speaker 4>The idea that more young New Zealanders should take up

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<v Speaker 4>smoking in order to pay for tax cuts is morally reprehensible.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think New Zealanders thought that's what they were

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<v Speaker 4>going to get. I don't think that's the change they

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<v Speaker 4>were voting for when they voted at the last election.

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<v Speaker 4>Mister Speaker, National's decision to wind back the smoke free

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<v Speaker 4>alter or agenda as a disgrace to New Zealand as

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<v Speaker 4>a country. It is an international embarrassment and it is

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<v Speaker 4>making headlines around the world for all the wrong reasons.

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<v Speaker 3>How do you feel about vaping?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, vaping is a tricky one. Obviously, Dylan Ever wanted

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<v Speaker 1>it to have sort of the grip on some of

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<v Speaker 1>our kids that it does now. It was never intended

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<v Speaker 1>to be for children. It was never intended to be

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<v Speaker 1>for non smokers to use. It was always intended to

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<v Speaker 1>be an option to help people shift from tobacco, and

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<v Speaker 1>in the beginning, well even even still now, it has

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<v Speaker 1>worked for a lot of our long term smokers that

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<v Speaker 1>have tried other methods and it and just haven't been

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<v Speaker 1>able to break away. So I think it does have

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<v Speaker 1>a place, But we didn't roll it out how we

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<v Speaker 1>should have. We weren't careful, we didn't look after. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't say that it was too accessible. Even now you

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<v Speaker 1>can see how many of these vape stores are around.

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<v Speaker 1>It's ridiculous and once again saturated in those same neighborhoods

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<v Speaker 1>that I was speaking about earlier with the tobacco outlets.

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<v Speaker 1>It just seems to be everywhere. And if you speak

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<v Speaker 1>to any sort of intermediate high school principal, if you

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<v Speaker 1>ask them what the top issue affecting them is, it's faithing.

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<v Speaker 1>That's crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess it's seen as I suppose, trendy to

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<v Speaker 2>young people. Obviously they've never tried a cigarette in their lives,

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<v Speaker 2>but then they pick up a vape. Do you ever

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<v Speaker 2>wonder because when I was thinking about this and when

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<v Speaker 2>I was younger, smoking was quote unquote cool, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>that's probably why I started when I was so young.

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<v Speaker 3>In terms of trends are cyclical.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you ever think that smoking there's a chance of

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<v Speaker 2>smoking to become cool again once all the vaping has

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<v Speaker 2>worn off?

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<v Speaker 3>And is that a real worry?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? I think it's always a worry. We don't know

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.440
<v Speaker 1>how trends are going to go. I mean, but even

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.760
<v Speaker 1>when it comes to tobacco, like making it a truly

0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.080
<v Speaker 1>it didn't just happen. It was very purposeful, was very

0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 1>intentional by the tobacco industry. They were putting cigarettes into

0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.040
<v Speaker 1>music videos, onto MTV like all these different places, and

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.640
<v Speaker 1>like it wasn't it doesn't. It didn't just happen. So

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.520
<v Speaker 1>that's why we need to make sure that we're very

0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.120
<v Speaker 1>purposeful with any measures that you put in place, because

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.440
<v Speaker 1>stuff doesn't just happen, but we do have to make

0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:04.840
<v Speaker 1>sure that those protections are there.

0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.080
<v Speaker 2>In terms of vaping, I know that the advertising is

0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.600
<v Speaker 2>watered down quite a bit now, but is there anything

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 2>further that we can do to try and stop youth

0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:21.160
<v Speaker 2>from picking up a vape or maybe banning specific flavors altogether,

0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 2>or something like that, making them all black and boring

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know, tobacco flavored or something.

0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think there's a lot of measures that we

0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.360
<v Speaker 1>could still employ, and a lot of them are similar

0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 1>to the approach that we took with tobacco. So we

0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 1>can make the packets least appealing, we can make the flavors, well,

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.680
<v Speaker 1>that's not a tobacco on, but we can make the

0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.439
<v Speaker 1>flavors less appealing to children, even the name all those

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 1>sorts of things. Once again, the amount of outlets there are,

0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 1>it's crazy, silly little things, like it's almost like that's

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.720
<v Speaker 1>circum meanting the rules, but they're not. It's sort of

0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 1>like the store within a store at a dairy where

0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.319
<v Speaker 1>they sort of have two doors, but it's the same

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.760
<v Speaker 1>store or the same person and there's like a piece

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.439
<v Speaker 1>of timber up there that separates the two, and then

0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:07.439
<v Speaker 1>they're allowed to be a vape store. Like that just

0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:09.320
<v Speaker 1>doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't think

0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 1>it's in the spirit of the law. So we need

0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.200
<v Speaker 1>to sort of tidy up all those little things. The

0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 1>placement of ape stores. We've got them still close to schools,

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.400
<v Speaker 1>Like we brought in some rules around the placement of them,

0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:24.520
<v Speaker 1>but it didn't apply to any of the ones which

0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.400
<v Speaker 1>are already close to schools, And there was even a

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.480
<v Speaker 1>delay from the announcement until then it was rolled out,

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 1>and a whole lot more of vape stores popped up

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.520
<v Speaker 1>within those zones that we know we don't want vape

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.040
<v Speaker 1>stores in the meantime, So there's lots of lots of

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.200
<v Speaker 1>things we could and we should be doing to make

0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 1>sure that we don't end up with another problem. Well,

0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 1>I think the problems already here, to be honest, but

0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 1>we need to trying to actively work against those things.

0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.320
<v Speaker 3>So, Jason, where do we go to from now?

0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Do we kind of need to smoke free twenty thirty

0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:57.280
<v Speaker 2>five or something.

0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 1>That's a very good question, I guess. For so long

0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.800
<v Speaker 1>we've always been focused on the Smoke Free twenty twenty

0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.560
<v Speaker 1>five gold, but it's not it's not a thing that

0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 1>we miss and then we stop. I think we sort

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 1>of we really do need to double down on our

0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.840
<v Speaker 1>efforts now because people are still dying from this product.

0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.600
<v Speaker 1>We need to get it out of out of New Zealand.

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 1>It's sort of sort of serves no purpose. It's almost

0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.640
<v Speaker 1>like a wasp if you're like, it's sort of it's

0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 1>there's no redeeming qualities to it. I think the only

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 1>thing you ever hear is someone saying that it helps

0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.520
<v Speaker 1>me relax, but that's usually from smokers, and it's because

0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>they're addicted. So it's sort of curbing that that nagging

0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 1>sound in the back of the head that telling them

0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:37.960
<v Speaker 1>that they need nicotine.

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 3>Were you ever a smoker?

0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 1>No, I couldn't afford it when I was a kid,

0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 1>to be honest, probably wasn't cool enough either. Tried it

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 1>a couple of times, tasted like rubbish, so I never

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.040
<v Speaker 1>sort of pursued it.

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 2>It does, man, it's awful, and after I think because

0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I stopped smoking because I picked up the vapes, so

0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.760
<v Speaker 2>I am actually a converted smoker. And you know, and

0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.480
<v Speaker 2>then you tape it down from over time. But I

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.880
<v Speaker 2>remember thinking, once you're over that that push, you go out.

0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.640
<v Speaker 3>And you're like, oh my god, did I smell like

0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:15.600
<v Speaker 3>that all the time.

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 2>I remember like dowsing myself with perfume after going for

0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.560
<v Speaker 2>a smoko and you think.

0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:21.680
<v Speaker 3>Wow, like you are.

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Really it's an addiction, and when once you're in that

0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.480
<v Speaker 2>bubble and you can only see it when you're out

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 2>of it exactly.

0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh, thanks so much for joining us.

0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.800
<v Speaker 1>No problem, Thank you for your time today.

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 2>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 2>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 2>at NZHERLD, dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is

0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.600
<v Speaker 2>produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who's also our editor.

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:54.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm Chelsea Daniels.

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.200
<v Speaker 2>Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts and chew you in it tomorrow for

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.160
<v Speaker 2>another look behind the headlines.