1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Kielder. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government 4 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: will introduce legislation later this year to create the Young 5 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: Serious Offender category and empower youth court judges to send 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: them to new boot camps. It's all while Oranga Tamariki 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: officials supported the view of experts that boot camps are 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 2: not effective. So why have every other iteration of boot 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 2: camps in this country failed? 10 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: And how might this government make them better? 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, Herald's senior writer Derek Chang 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: is with us to discuss our tattered history of boot 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: camps and what officials have warned the government about them 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: this time round. First off, Derek, this is a subject 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: we've spoken about before and one we're both really interested in. 16 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: Can you remind us of how we got here. 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 3: There's a bit of context there, because obviously this is 18 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 3: not the first time we've heard about boot camps for 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 3: young serious offenders. It became quite a political spotlight during 20 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 3: all the ram raids, which had a few different contributing factors. 21 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: One was all the lockdowns increased truancy, kids out of 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 3: the classroom, another was the cost of living crisis, and 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 3: we had this massive spike in ram raids and you know, 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 3: the Labor government at first we were like, well, everything's fine, 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 3: everything's fine. Youth offending has been going down, it's been 26 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 3: going down. And then when Christopher Luxeman was the opposition leader, 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: he made an announcement that National was going to bring 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: back boot camps for young serious offenders. And I think 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: the context is important there because ram raids were going 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 3: through the roof. They were on the front page of 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: the papers all the time, they were a big deal. 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: So obviously as soon as lux And announced these boot camps, 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: everyone jumped on him and saying they don't work, we've 34 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: tried them before, they failed, sometimes they make it worse. 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 3: And then he got accused of like you know, slogan 36 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: ering for the election, but in any case, he campaigned 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 3: on it and it was part of his pledge card 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 3: and then when they formed the coalition they went straight 39 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 3: into it. So we've been here before. New Zealand has 40 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 3: had boot camps before, they've been run overseas before. The 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: general consensus among academia is that they don't work, and 42 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: if they do work, it's generally because they have a 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 3: whole bunch of features in them that aren't really the 44 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: essential characteristics of boot camps. You know, people think of 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: boot camps and they think army drills and obstacle courses 46 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 3: and dual sergeants yelling do drop and give me twenty 47 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: and there's a whole lot bunch of discipline and tough love. 48 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: Really, what's gone wrong with boot camps in the past, Well. 49 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: There's been a lot of different studies that officials pointed 50 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: to in their advice to the Minister for Children Karen Shaw. 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: Generally is also a look at the New Zealand ones 52 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: as well. Sir Peter Gluckman wrote a paper in twenty 53 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: eighteen where he just basically said they do not work 54 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 3: and the scarce straight tactics can even make things worse. 55 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 4: If you actually look at Sir Peter Glutman's entire comment. 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 4: He said that they don't work in who he didn't 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 4: think they'd work well in isolation. We agree with him. 58 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 4: That's why we put a twelve month course in place 59 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 4: with follow up support for that young person when they 60 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 4: come out, to make sure they've got the best possible 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 4: chance to launch. Because the one thing that we do 62 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: want to make sure is that they don't. It't the 63 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 4: fifteen to seventeen year olds. They are the ones that 64 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 4: most danger of coming into an adult criminal justice system. 65 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 4: Once they're in the adult criminal justice system, they're much 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 4: harder to rehabilitate. 67 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: So we've got to talk about who goes to these 68 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: bird camps, right, And these are the worst of the 69 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 3: world defenders, but they're also societies most neglected. They are 70 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 3: probably suffering from intergenerational trauma. They might have contemplated suicide, 71 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: They're likely to be a victim of sexual or physical abuse, 72 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 3: and they're probably a neurodivergent in some way or even 73 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 3: have like substances challenges from a young age. So throwing 74 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: them into a boot camp where someone yells at them, 75 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 3: going back to that Supeter Gluckman quote, you know that 76 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 3: kind of scare tactic isn't really going to just suddenly 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: change someone's behavior, because their behavior is going to be 78 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 3: really complex, lots of different unmet needs and what they 79 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 3: need to address the drivers are offending is really complicated. 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you looked into exactly who will be the cohort 81 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: being sent to these camps. 82 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a bit about that. 83 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: I recall seeing Urana Tamariki briefing in December about the 84 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: backgrounds of these severe abuse and neglect cases. 85 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 3: That briefing includes just a snapshot, so you know, there 86 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: are there are I don't know, probably tens of thousands 87 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: of young people who go through the youth justice system 88 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: or dealt with by police every year, young people being 89 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 3: like children ten to thirteen and young people fourteen to seventeen. 90 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: Most of them get diversion from you know, police don't 91 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: prosecute those who are prosecuted, most of those don't end 92 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: up in the youth court, and even most of them 93 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: who do go to the youth court still eventually get 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 3: a discharge. There's a big focus on restorative justice. This 95 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,039 Speaker 3: is the non punitive emphasis that has really led to 96 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: youth depending dropping since two thousand and seven, right up 97 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: until two thousand and twenty one twenty two, and that's 98 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 3: actually been Studies have shown that has had ongoing repercussions 99 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 3: where we're young adults, like convictions for young adults since 100 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: two thousand and nine have been decreasing. So what I 101 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: was trying to say is that of all of those 102 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 3: teens of thousands of people who might you know come 103 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 3: to the attention of police or the justice system. There's 104 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: only three hundred and fifty fourteen to seventeen year olds 105 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: who go to youth court and reoffend within a year. 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: So the people who really on a somebody, he said, 107 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 3: we're likely to qualify for this young serious offender designation 108 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: as a special category that requires new legislation. There's about 109 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: one hundred of them who would have committed like two 110 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 3: serious crimes. And who are these people? Eighty percent have 111 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 3: a confirmed or suspected mental health or disability diagnosis, twenty 112 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 3: percent have tried to kill themselves, ninety percent have significant 113 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: learning difficulties. Half of the boys have been physically harmed 114 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 3: three times in the past year, so they are almost neglected. 115 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 5: Overseas. Reports suggest ne're adverse and trauma are problems facing 116 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 5: most young offenders. 117 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: Being yelled at. That's probably been their environment, sinless they 118 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: grew up. 119 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 3: Get back down on the press upposition. 120 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 5: At last week's media stand up at the Youth Justice 121 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 5: facility hosting the boot camp, there was hope this had 122 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: been taken into account. 123 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: Why are so many people against the idea of boot camps? 124 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: What have officials said to this government so far. 125 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 3: I mean, people's main beef is that they don't work, 126 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: really and that they're really expensive, and why throw a 127 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: whole bunch of money at something that is not very 128 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: likely to succeed? And this is kind of exactly what 129 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 3: Luxin said about labor on the campaign, right, and not 130 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: without cause. Why throw money at something that doesn't work? 131 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 3: And if you look at our history, we had a 132 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: bunch of boot camps in the eighties and nineties where 133 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 3: the reconviction rate was ninety two percent. John Key had 134 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: a bunch that ran from two thousand and ten where 135 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 3: the reoffending rate was more than eighty percent. We also 136 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: have had when they were called outdoor activity camps for 137 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 3: those in state care, where people were basically tortured and abused. 138 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: So we don't have a great history of success. In fact, 139 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: there's a history of abuse. But people like the idea 140 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: it's a tough on crime thing. It's like, well, these 141 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: guys have committed crimes and we got to have consequences 142 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 3: for that. So I guess it's not very surprising when 143 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: politicians reached for that particular. 144 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: Ever, what makes this latest iteration of boot camps different 145 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 2: to the others? What has Chris Luxon said about them. 146 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting because in July he started this. You know, 147 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 3: I've never called them boot camps, and it's a media thing, 148 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: but that's actually not true. He called them boot camps 149 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: in his campaign speech last year. He his pledge card 150 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: actually had the word boot camps on it. But the 151 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 3: shifting language there is basically, well, we've accepted that the 152 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: official bias and or the expert advice, and the key 153 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 3: to a successful boot camp is basically to make it 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: as un boot camp like as possible. So it means 155 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be fully residential. It's going to 156 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: need a lot of support, intensive multi agent agency support, 157 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 3: community providers, EWE providers. It's going to have like tailored 158 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: individual programs because each one of these people are going 159 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 3: to have really highly complex needs. They're going to need 160 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: probably counseling, something to address their trauma. So all of 161 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: these aspects have been used in some boot camps in 162 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: the past, maybe not in New Zealand but overseas. But again, 163 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: typically it's not what you think of when you hear 164 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 3: the word boot camps. So he's that's how he's describing them. 165 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 3: It's a military style Academy, and Karen Shaw even said 166 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 3: in July when she announced the pilot that will inform 167 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: the eventual ones that will be based on new legislation, 168 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: she said, well, it's it's not really about punishment. It's 169 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: about giving these guys as much support as possible and 170 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: that they've never had in their life. 171 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 6: We've looked overseas and we've looked at what we've already 172 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 6: done in New Zealand. So there was a MAC program 173 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 6: and there was also the LSP which continues now, but 174 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 6: it's more of a voluntary program for people who have 175 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 6: put themselves forward for that. There is a lot of 176 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 6: evidence that says while they're on these programs that it 177 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 6: shows some positive results. It allows these young people to 178 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 6: have stability, It allows these young people to have certainty 179 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 6: about what's going to happen on a day to day basis. 180 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 6: But what we haven't done well in the past is 181 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 6: actually instead of sending them back to the same environment 182 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 6: that they came from and just saying you're on your way, 183 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 6: where we've done a bit, and step in and wrap 184 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 6: around them once they leave the program, you haven't done 185 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 6: that well. 186 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: And it's interesting, I think with this iteration as well. 187 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: They've touted it as being similar to one that the 188 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 2: NZDF run, which has been quite successful, but. 189 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: That's been voluntary and I know. 190 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: In August news Talk z BS, Demelza Jackson reported the 191 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 2: government's newly launched military style academies will have actually no 192 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: military personnel working at the coal face with the young offenders. 193 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: The Minister of a Children, Karen Shaw, said that they 194 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: won't be any New Zealand Defense for staff working directly 195 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: with the young people on the pilots. So there's a 196 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: bit of mismanagement in I guess how these are. 197 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: Actually going to work and what they're going to look like. 198 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 3: Right, well, that's part of the sales pitch, I guess 199 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: once they became government, or even on the campaign trail 200 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 3: the national people Mark Mitchell, including the police spokesman at 201 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: the time and the Police Minister. Now he talked about 202 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 3: the LSV program that they have force ran, but again, 203 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: as you say, it was very different. It was voluntary. 204 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: I think it was six weeks and when Demilsa ran 205 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: that story, they were very much like no, no, no no. 206 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: The Defense Force has been highly involved in the design 207 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: of what we are going to do and that might 208 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 3: be true, but the Cabinet paper basically says it's an 209 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 3: online at somebody he run show with lots of input 210 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: from the Minstry of Justice and lots of other agencies 211 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 3: as well. But the Defense Force certainly isn't very prominent 212 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 3: in those documents, and r is the ALI Speed Program. 213 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: So all of this comes under the Young Serious Offender category. 214 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: So that's how they're getting it through Parliament, right, can 215 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 2: you explain what this is? 216 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: So they're basically saying, well, these guys, the current system 217 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: doesn't really cater for them, so we have to create 218 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: something entirely new, a completely new regime, and to do that, 219 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 3: we're going to call it Young Serious Offender Category. Which 220 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: official was actually said was that they tried to get 221 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 3: them to shange the name because equivalent systems in Australia, 222 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: the YSO label became a bit of a badge of honor. Anyway, 223 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 3: they stuck with the YSO thing, and there's various ways 224 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: you can be eligible. It's from fourteen to seventeen year 225 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: olds likely to reoffend have had previous interventions that have 226 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 3: not succeeded, and the main thing is that they have 227 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: to have had to proven offenses. Punishable by ten years 228 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: jail at least, and that will capture ram rays as well. Interestingly, 229 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 3: officials and ministers. Ministers actually agreed with officials to have 230 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 3: those offenses and the youth court only, but then they 231 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: later decided to add any such offenses in the adult 232 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 3: courts to strict and High court. Officials didn't want that 233 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 3: because if you go through the youth court, then basically 234 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: whatever comes out of the youth court takes account of 235 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 3: your age. So if you have two offenses in the 236 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: district court, which you know, if they're serious enough, you 237 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: have to go to the district court and you get 238 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: designated young serious offender, then you might not have had 239 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 3: the kind of interventions that are age appropriate. And by 240 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: including the adult courts it actually broadens the modeling the 241 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 3: estimated number who will qualify. So when the legislation goes 242 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: through and the policy is fully implemented, the estimated number 243 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 3: jumps from sixty to one hundred and two every year, 244 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: and that actually the estimated cost of that is sixteen 245 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: and a half million dollars more than was allocated in 246 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: budget twenty twenty four. However, you know there's a lot 247 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: of uncertainty there it's who gets a YSO designation will 248 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: be up to the Youth Court judge, so there's a 249 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: lot of discretion there. It's still and Ministerture basically said, well, 250 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: we'll be monitoring it, with the implication being that if 251 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: we need to put more money into it than we can. 252 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 3: So if you get a YSO declaration, that doesn't necessarily 253 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 3: mean you go to a boot camp, but it enables 254 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: the Youth Court judge to hand down a tougher sentence, 255 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: like a supervision order that's longer than any that they 256 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 3: can currently give out, one of which would be to 257 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 3: send them to a boot camp up to a year. 258 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: There's a whole bunch of judicial monitoring to ensure compliance 259 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: with your conditions like having to go to a drug 260 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: program for example. And there's much wider use of electronic monitoring, 261 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: which is quite controversial as well because currently it's hardly 262 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: used it all. It can be used, but it's barely 263 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: used at all, and under the new legislation or the 264 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: new regime rather it can apply for odd months and 265 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 3: that raises a whole bunch of tensions with the Bill 266 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 3: of Rights Act protection against unreasonable search and seizure. But 267 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: we don't have a bill yet that would implement this regime, 268 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: so we don't have a borer vetting of the spell, 269 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: and we don't know whether any of these limits on 270 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: rights are unjustified. 271 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: So Derek, what happens from here? 272 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: When are we likely to see these boot camps actually 273 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: up and running, And have we got any idea about 274 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: actually where they'll be, what facilities will be used. 275 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 3: No, that's a big open question at the moment. There's 276 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 3: currently the pilot obviously that's going on, and that will 277 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 3: inform the boot camp. The current pilot which is in 278 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: a youth justice residency their PARTMPS North. I think that's 279 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: under the current legislative setting. So they're going to be 280 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: The actual boot camps are going to be quite different 281 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: to those ones. And the pilot is a three month 282 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: in residence and then nine months in community with lots 283 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 3: of rap around support. So I guess the principles of it, 284 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 3: they say, I mean, this is kind of like this 285 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 3: is what Odong Tamicky officials wanted the government to do 286 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: in the first place. They said, well, you can give 287 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 3: you can provide all these bricks, best practice components that 288 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 3: are evidence based without having a boot camp at all, 289 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 3: And the current boot camp pilot is at a Youth 290 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: Justice residence, so it's not a fully residential place, it's 291 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: not a secure setting, and they're basically they're basically the 292 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: trial is what the officials wanted the government to do 293 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: in the first place. So that still has about nine 294 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: and a half months to run, so there will be 295 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: a question about where these boot camps will be, how 296 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: many there might be. And the timeline is completely as 297 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: well because the government still has to introduce a bill 298 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 3: that will enable this regime to be implemented, which will 299 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 3: go through a whole SOLI committee process, and once that 300 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 3: bill has passed, I guess around that time that the 301 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: pilot will finish and then a youth Court judge will 302 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 3: be able to designate someone a Yso what. 303 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: If official has actually warned the government about regarding these 304 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 2: new police powers. 305 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: The main warning there is that Cabinet signed off a 306 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 3: bunch of warrantless powers of detention and arrest for the police. 307 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: So usually the police will go to the youth court 308 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 3: to get a warrant and that gives a bunch of 309 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: judicial oversight, some safeguards. But while you're waiting for a warrant. Say, 310 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: you know, if one of these guys has escaped a 311 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 3: boot camp or something, or has you know, reached a 312 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: supervision order in some way, then maybe there's a public 313 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 3: safety risk. So the government's basically decided that the ability 314 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 3: of police to have an immediate response and detain or 315 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: arrest one of the way ss without a warrant is 316 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: more important. Officials oppose this because they said there might 317 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 3: be a really a mining bridge, it could be a 318 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 3: completely unintentional breach, or the police might have been mistaken, 319 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 3: or they might have been and they might just be 320 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: misusing their powers. There was a quote from the official 321 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: documents where it basically says racial profiling and bias and 322 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 3: arrests and the youth justice system may become more significant 323 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 3: under these conditions. So it's a trade off. You allow 324 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: police to have an immediate response, but that comes at 325 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: the expense of a lack of oversight. And this is 326 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: one of the things that officials said about potential tensions 327 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: with the Bill of Rights Act, which has protections from 328 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 3: arbitrary arrest and detention, for example, and also for the 329 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 3: rights of young people to be dealt with in an 330 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 3: age appropriate way. 331 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining US daring. 332 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 333 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 334 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: at Enzeed Herald dot co dot nz. The Front Page 335 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox. 336 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio 337 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow 338 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.