1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald Business Editor at 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: is a podcast about money, but we're not going to 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: tell you how to get rich, and we're not going 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: to try and pick the next interest rate move. In 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about 7 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by Labour 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: MP for the Mana electorate and the party's finance spokesperson, 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Barbara Edmunds Cura. Barbara, Welcome to Money. 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: Talks, Tyler for Lover of Them, Thanks for having me. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Yes, hello for lover Look. You are new to the 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: finance portfolio. You started in February. How are you enjoying 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: it so far? 15 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: Enjoy is a proscriptive word. 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 17 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: I think it's like any new job, you know, it 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: kind of takes you about six months to settle in. 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: That's kind of the barometer I've used in my previous careers. 20 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: It's taking a bit to settle in. There are bits 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: that I enjoy, there are some bits that I'm like, 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: you know, less so, but it's where you know, just 23 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,479 Speaker 2: post my first budget and opposition, so lots of things 24 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: I've learned for next time. 25 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: Sure, well, let's let's jump back and you know, talk 26 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: a little bit about growing up and money of course, 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: So you know, can I ask what were your first 28 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: memories of money? Do you remember first time you might 29 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: have held money in your hand or your first time 30 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: you were aware of it around? 31 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: Well, we grew up with not much money because my 32 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: parents and migrant parents who came to New Zealand in 33 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: the seventies, and Mum got cancer, so she died when 34 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: I was four. So my dad gave up his job 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: as an Edmund Clark in the Navy in Devenport and 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: just went on the benefit to basically until I got 37 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: to college. So I don't actually have much memory of money, 38 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: if I could put it that way, obviously, because we 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: didn't have much, and you know, there were sometimes in 40 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: the cupboards were beer. Probably Actually one time I do 41 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: remember quite fondly. It was actually on the day we 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: buried mum, which is also on my fifth birthday, the 43 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: eighteenth of January, and we went to the dairy, so 44 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 2: the View Road Dairy in Glenfield, and the shopkeeper Murray 45 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: there he let me go around the around the counter 46 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 2: to pick whatever I wanted. Oh yeah, so money wasn't 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: an object for that, you know, and that's a pretty 48 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,399 Speaker 2: big thing for a five year I was like, oh, 49 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: I get to go behind the shop, you know, the 50 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: shop counter. I get to pick whatever I want, so, 51 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 2: you know, I mean I picked a lead which was 52 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: an old one and a kick cat. But I mean, 53 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: I think that's probably one of my earliest memories around. Wow, 54 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: money wasn't wasn't a thing. I could pick whatever I wanted. 55 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I mean, it's interesting how many people I 56 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: talked to in New Zealand, you know, pocket money or whatever. 57 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: That that corner dairy. 58 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: Corner dairy story is so real. 59 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but you know so obviously you know, not 60 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: much money, But did you feel the absence of money 61 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: like when you you know, as a kid relative to 62 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: other kids. I guess north Shore is you know, quite affluent. 63 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we were brought up in Glenfield, which was 64 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: actually one of the areas where the government at the 65 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 2: time had done a lot of property development, so that 66 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: it was one of the housing boom kind of areas. 67 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: Universal homes built our family home through the capitalization of 68 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 2: family skiing benefits. That's how my parents got their home. 69 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: I do remember like walking to school and bare feet, 70 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: but I thought every kid did that, you know, I 71 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: really did. I think the first time I realized, and then, 72 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: you know, obviously sometimes you're hungry. Sometimes didn't really didn't 73 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: really think about it. I think the first time I 74 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: actually did kind of realize there was a difference was 75 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: I was really close to our next door neighbor and 76 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: the daughter, the young daughter who used to baby search, 77 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: must have been about ten or nine, because I was 78 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: still in primary school. She had a ballet recital. It 79 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: was in town at the old main Mint Theater, and 80 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: she picked the mother and the daughter picked me up 81 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: from netball and I was soaked because of netball. But 82 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: I had no shoes either, because my netble shoes were 83 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: totally soaked. I remember going to the ballet with no 84 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: shoes and kind of feeling that a bit different, right, 85 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: So I not just that, And that's probably the first 86 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: time I kind of realized that we didn't quite have 87 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 2: everything that others had. 88 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes people feel that, you know, maybe 89 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, going back a few decades, the inequalities weren't 90 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: so stark that you could sort of live a life 91 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: in New Zealand without so much money, and you know, 92 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: you didn't feel necessarily so different from the other people 93 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: around you. 94 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 2: Is that. Yeah, we also didn't have social media and 95 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: this access to information that's constantly telling you what you 96 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: have and what you don't have. Yeah, you know, you 97 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 2: don't have the social media influencers who are sharing parts 98 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: of their life, which is my perspective not totally real, 99 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: or being sponsored by someone to produce a product, you know, 100 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: to advertise the product. So I think that sort of 101 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: a win where we didn't have that basically, that technology 102 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: and actually back in the day where you know, your 103 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 2: community was the little primary school plus the hospital, plus 104 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 2: the place where your parents went to work, whereas now 105 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: our children are exposed to way more through technology. 106 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you have a big extended family, you know, sibling. 107 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 2: So I'm the youngest of four because because mom passed away, 108 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: my dad is the eldest of nineteen grandpa's nineteen children. 109 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 2: My grandpa had two children. My mother is the youngest 110 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: of her family of ten. She was also only the 111 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 2: second one to pass away, so she was the baby 112 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: so at the last count, and this was the early 113 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: two thousands and my aunties and uncles were still having children. 114 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 2: I have eighty four first cousins. 115 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: Wow. 116 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a very born family. 117 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: It sounds sounds great. And look, you mentioned your mum 118 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: passing away when you're quite young. It that you and 119 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,119 Speaker 1: uctually inherited her name? Is that? 120 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I was born Rachel Futti. That's the name 121 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 2: that was given to me by my parents. And I 122 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 2: was born so on her actual day that she was 123 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: buried like someone sort of tradition, we have a big 124 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 2: feed afterwards. The Mattai of her family. So her brother 125 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: who was the folke bully, the head of our family, 126 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: mother's side of the family. He basically announced then at 127 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: the wake, if you would say that my family was 128 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: now to refer to me as Barbara or Balipa, which 129 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: and that was my mom's name, so no more. He 130 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 2: sort of overstepped my dad in some respects but said 131 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 2: that basically, now she's passed away, I was to carry 132 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: her name. 133 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: Wow. Is that like a bit of a shock for you? 134 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: Like ll you just take it in your stride, take 135 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: it up. 136 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: I guess it didn't quite understand. 137 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: When you go, so you don't. 138 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: Understand your mom dying, but then second of all, you 139 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: don't understand some of these big decisions that are made 140 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: for you. So some of my family still call me 141 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: Rachel and I respond, right, yeah, really easily like me 142 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: my som more name, which is Fuzzy, and I respond 143 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 2: to that. But yeah, it's just just happened. 144 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, obviously you've been in the you know, 145 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: the real hard nosed world of tax law, and I'll 146 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: get to that, but I'm just interested to know what 147 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: the approach to money in the summer and community was 148 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: like at that time. Is it sort of you know, 149 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: even now, do you see a different attitude to economics 150 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: and money in that community. 151 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: It's around basically burdens being shared, So you know, it's 152 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: a very much a communal model in the way that 153 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: families will work hard. They will work you know, sometimes 154 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: two three jobs because Pacific people generally are paid much lower. 155 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: But when you need it the most, the family comes 156 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: together and donates. And so really simple example for you, 157 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: my parents, my father's siblings, they had been saving for 158 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: decades for the time when my grandmother would pass away. 159 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: She passed away a couple of years ago. They had 160 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: saved with I think around a hundred and fifty thousand 161 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: dollars when her funeral actually happened. It costs a family 162 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: one hundred and ten thousand dollars for her funeral. Because 163 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: we do cultural gift exchanges. The exchange of gifts, the 164 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: gifts that were given to our family to honor our 165 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: grandmother was about one hundred k. So there is there 166 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: is money that's being exchanged, but it's very much around. 167 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: You know, we were as a family, we were giving 168 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: money back, but at the same time other family, extended family, friends, 169 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 2: people of the church that she belonged to, we're also 170 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: giving money to try and help us. I mean, we 171 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: were just in a we were fortunate. We're in a 172 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: position where our parents were quite smart. They thought save 173 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: the money, fundraise over decades. But it's not like that 174 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: for every Salmon family. And so that's why when people 175 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: say for Psalm warns, we say far lovely, lovely sort 176 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: of problems or events that our frinerals are quite a 177 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 2: big burden because we have some cultural exchanges that happened 178 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: that cost a lot, not just in fine mats, but 179 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: money and food and the things. 180 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: And there's a sort of a cultural feeling that it 181 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: sort of goes around that. 182 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 2: You h it does. It does go around. Like we reciprocate. So, 183 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 2: you know, family members that would come to Grammars, we 184 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: write them in a book, We write down how much 185 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: they gave, and then generally what happens is that when say, 186 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: someone from that family passes away, we would go and 187 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: reciprocate and take what we call a c which is 188 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: a gift, and they would respond with a saw, which 189 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: is a response back to us. And so depending on 190 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: how close your family exchanges or you are to the 191 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: person that's died, sometimes we do the saw straight away. 192 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: The exchange of gifts, which is generally a matte or 193 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 2: a tapa cloth, a fine matt or a tapa cloth, 194 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: it is some form of Sometimes in its money, we 195 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: will do an exchange for that a saw, which is 196 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: basically money back, but we will recall who they are 197 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: so that when that person passes away, we then go 198 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: reciprocate at their funeral. 199 00:09:53,080 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Do you have an interest in 200 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: money and things like that? I mean, you know, at school, 201 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: was that sort of something that. 202 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 2: I think, like most Kiwi kids want to be a shopkeeper. 203 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I had and you had part time time job. 204 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 2: It's funny enough. I've just done a speech on Orkanson 205 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: North Shore at the North Harbor Hockey Stadium and we 206 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 2: had to I had Sheddon Halbert with me, and we 207 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 2: stopped off at this industrial site down the road. I said, Shannon, 208 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: this is where my first real job was. It was 209 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: a catering company. And so my sister used to run 210 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: the office in a catering company, and so we got hired, 211 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: as you know, young twelve thirteen year olds to come 212 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: and help waiter and stuff like that. So I mean, 213 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: I've had lots of sort of mini job or you know, 214 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: part of job sort of growing up, but. 215 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: That would have been the first time you sort of 216 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: had a few dollars in your pocket. 217 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I remember that this particular catering company said, look, 218 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: if you come and do two nights of this training 219 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: course with us, we will increase your wages to fourteen 220 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 2: dollars an hour, you know. So I remember that. But 221 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 2: my other job that I did was actually didn't feel 222 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 2: like a job. I used to coach netball. Used to 223 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: be one of the netball helpers coach netball for primary 224 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: school kids at Nepple North Harbor, which they still have 225 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: now during the holiday program. So it's not that money mattered. 226 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: It's just a kind of I think because I always 227 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: had an opportunity to earn money through not having to 228 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: apply for something. It was just sort of always there, 229 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: despite our wider family, you know, being probably having less money. 230 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean was a big thing for you. 231 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: Sports was Yeah, this was a big Thingah. 232 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, big time. I was just saying the speech like 233 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 2: I represented North Harbor and basketball, volleyball, netball, javelin and rugby. 234 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: Wow. 235 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: You know, but that I was busy. We're busy young kids, 236 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: and I mean, and that was one of the things 237 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: that our dad allowed us to do, was you know, 238 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: basically keeping us busy, kinkurking us active so that we 239 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: won get into trouble. 240 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: Did you? But you never because there's another step to 241 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: sort of take one of those up to the next level. 242 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: It's sort of the commitment. 243 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 2: Did you not really think I liked I like doing 244 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: a broad range of sports. And also mean life changes 245 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: right now and I've been to university and then got pregnant. 246 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: There was a different part of my life. 247 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: But you were obviously you must have been quite good 248 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: at school. I got here that you were a head 249 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: girl at Carmel College. Is that right? 250 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was the co ed girl there, yep? 251 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: Is that? Like? I was a head boy at Kesh 252 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: High a long time ago. I was probably the worst 253 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: head boy at Kesh highlight that they had a terrible 254 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: system that year where they let students have some involvement 255 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: in the vote and all that's the things. So I 256 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: don't think I earned it, But did you? Did? 257 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: You? 258 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: Did you? 259 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: We kind of had the teacher and the kids that 260 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: vote for it, so the teachers had two votes to 261 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: one for the kids. I don't know. Leadership is kind 262 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: of a thing that's run in my family. So my 263 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: sister was head girl, my brother was co heed boy 264 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 2: of our brother school. My oldest sister she was on 265 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 2: the school council. We kind of were always pretty good kids. 266 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: And our dad, because he didn't have much money, we 267 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: didn't have much money. He had gone to an agreement 268 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: with the school that he would pay off our school 269 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: fees and it took him about ten years afterwards to 270 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: fully pay that debt. But my dad always when him 271 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: and mum came to New Zealand, they wanted us to 272 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: have a good education. He knew that he had to 273 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: get involved with the school and he felt like it 274 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 2: was his way to give back to the school for 275 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: allowing him to pay the fees off. So Dad was 276 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 2: on the PTA, you know for the school fears. He'd 277 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: drive the school van and go pick up all the 278 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: veggies in the different markets, you know, farmers' markets and 279 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 2: stuff like that, you know, and he was on the 280 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: board of trustees. He was also the parent that when 281 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: the schools had trouble with Pacific kids, he would help 282 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 2: bridge that that relationship. Sure, you know, so in some 283 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: ways we always had a dad that was active in 284 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: the school. I think in some ways we kind of 285 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: just mirrored that service. And because we went to Catholic schools, 286 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: it's a big part around serving and social justice. 287 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: It sounds like he was a good role model in 288 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: the sense of, you know, making it clear that leadership 289 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: was a thing you could you could do. 290 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had to do, and it's one of the things. 291 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: I mean, like before I became MPs, heavily involved in 292 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 2: my own kids' schools. But part of the you know, 293 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: the strategy with one particular school that we moved out 294 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 2: of stretch statutory management was basically the number one thing 295 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: was we had to re engage with our school community. 296 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: We had to bring our parents back into school in 297 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: order to grow it and to basically feel connected. And 298 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: so I don't know, just kind of I think it's 299 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: just ingrained in. 300 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: Me that service. Yeah, did you have a sense at school, 301 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: at a high school of what you wanted to do 302 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: with your life at that point? 303 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: Was? Oh, yeah, I wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, 304 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: like any good sum One kid with strict parents. And 305 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: so when I actually finished school, I had a scholarship 306 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: and I went to aut and did my first year 307 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: of physiotherapy. Found it so boring, failed some papers, passed, 308 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: some papers, wasn't for me. And then I went and 309 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: that's what led me to insurance. 310 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I went and worked. 311 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: For insurance for a couple of years. 312 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so you worked, and you know, you just you 313 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: didn't go back to university straight away. 314 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: No, No, So I basically had to get here at 315 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 2: the time as well. I wanted to help my dad 316 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: with the bills, so I had to cover like a loan, 317 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: some utilities. Sky there was one one thing that I 318 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: made sure that our dad had was, you know, be 319 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: able to have sky watch the sports, watch the sports. 320 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: Yet he deserved that after all those years are looking 321 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: after us, and so I actually went to I didn't 322 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: know what I wanted to do, so went to did 323 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: an insurance job. Started off as a cashier at the 324 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: Takipoona office of State Insurance and then progressed through there 325 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 2: to become a claims advisor and negotiating claim settlements. So yeah, 326 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 2: that was just under two Yeah, there was two years. 327 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: And that led me to basically a love of contract 328 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 2: law right then. You know mine. 329 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: You were examining the contracts for the insurance. 330 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: Basically figuring out what people were entitled to, what we 331 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: could negotiate if they went happy with that, working with suppliers, 332 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: basically hooking people up with one of our seises if 333 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: we needed to, or a loss adjuster. So yeah, kind 334 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: of I really liked element of it. And then when 335 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: the job moved down to Wellington, decided I didn't want 336 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: to move to Wellington at the time, ironically, so yeah, decided, 337 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: well what I want to be a doctor or lawyer? 338 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: Doctor wasn't going to work out. So I went to 339 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: UNI become a. 340 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: Lawyer law degree and so did you specialize you know, 341 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: contract law tech. Did you specialize in tax law? Is it? 342 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: I actually hated taxation at university because our lecturer who 343 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: was still around, and actually he presented at Finance Expenditure 344 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: Select Committee earlier this year actually, and I said, his 345 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 2: Socratic method just put me off taxation. However, it was 346 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: kind of you know, you learn it, you absorb it. 347 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: But actually I was also doing ancient history and Roman 348 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: history was one of the papers I did, and so 349 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: learnt a bit more around tax and basically the trade 350 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: offs of the overtax or your under tax and what 351 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 2: they can do to an empire with the Western Roman Empire. 352 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: So yeah. And then just by a serendipity meta friend 353 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: who is now a very good friend, and she who 354 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: worked at IOD National Office, and she encouraged me to 355 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: apply for their graduate roles and I did. 356 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And you were with ID for quite a 357 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: long time, right, yeah. 358 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: Just under ten years, both in a policy role, then 359 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: as a solicitor role, and then as an acting manager 360 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: for about six months before I went into the bee hive. 361 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: And then when I went into the beehive, looked after 362 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 2: two revenue ministers for the National Party. So Judith Judith 363 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: Collins and Michael Woodhouse and then yeah, then labor came in. 364 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean a couple of things has gonna 365 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: ask about. First of all, it's quite I guess you 366 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: know you're working for the public sector. But once you understand, 367 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: you know, tax law for the ID, there must be 368 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: opportunity to go and earn a lot more money, you 369 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: know in the private sector. You weren't tempted to go 370 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: and oh yeah I. 371 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: Was, yeah, yeah, And Finnally, the thing was in twenty 372 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: seventeen when labor came in, I was basically tossing up 373 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,719 Speaker 2: the idea of going to a large firm as soon 374 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 2: as I'd finished in the behalf because I was I 375 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: was an independent is in that public sector of private secretary. 376 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: So I was thinking go to a firm, go work 377 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: for another big organization or at the time the minister 378 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: who was Stuart Nash and needed political stuff. I think 379 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: the typical me basically being solutions focused and hating frustration 380 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: and disorganization. Yeah, that's why I think in some ways 381 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: I went to the political role. Stuart Y. Yeah, it's 382 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: not in the plan to become an MP from there 383 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: at all. 384 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also I mean, I don't know about ID, 385 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: but you know, in those in the private sector that's 386 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: often quite a conservative end of the law, or I guess, 387 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: you know, text laws or tax specialists generally can be 388 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, so on the right of the political spectrum 389 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. Is that is that 390 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: or is that unfair? 391 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 2: I think it's a yeah. No. I mean it's the 392 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: same with business, right you could say that business or 393 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: National Party voters. But actually that's come to me as 394 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: time progresses, you actually come to see that that's a 395 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: fallacy in itself as well. I think it's the same 396 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: with the tax community. You know, I went to a 397 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: tax conference not long after I was actually appointed the 398 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: finance spokesperson. Went to just listen, and you know, it 399 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: was really nice to catch up with some old friends 400 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 2: right from right across the private sector, and you could 401 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 2: I could see a generational change, a generational view difference 402 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 2: between the younger tax practitioners and some of the olders 403 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: old tax practitioners. So I could see that quite clearly 404 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 2: in the room. So I think, you know, I think 405 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: there are of all stripes really, but one thing that 406 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 2: tax practitioners absolutely want as a cohesive tax system. So 407 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: you know, there's been some bits that Labor has done 408 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: that they won't like, and there's some bits that National 409 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: have done which they won't like. But generally, most most 410 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: tax practitioners do accept the broad based low rate and 411 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: they do want a cohesive system. 412 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's usually about I mean, I guess to be fair, 413 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: it's usually the idea that they want tax to be transparent, efficient, 414 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: certain and certain. Yeah. Yeah, all those things which can 415 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: be done in a range of different ways. 416 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: Right, It totally can. And again it depends on the 417 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: government of the day. And I think probably the reason 418 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 2: why I could transition quite easily from two National Party 419 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: ministers being their revenue advisor to then coming into a 420 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: Labor party is that for the majority of the tax 421 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 2: work program for a government is actually generally the same. 422 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 2: It's just the bigger ticket items where there is a 423 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: point of difference, but majority of it is remedials and 424 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: things like that. 425 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: Sure, we've talked a bit about, you know, some pretty 426 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: stellar career progression. Probably a good time to mention that 427 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: you've got eight children. Is that great? 428 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 2: I think that, Yeah, you've. 429 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: Been on seven days. Actually it was good. 430 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, eight babies that kept me rounded. Our baby, Harmony 431 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 2: is eleven, and my oldest daughter, Kesha does just turn twenty. 432 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: Wow. So I guess the question is how do you 433 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: manage that and a career A very supportive husband. 434 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: A very good husband, yeah, who basically gave up his 435 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: career to look after our kids. I meant it was 436 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 2: his dream to walk the kids to school, and it 437 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: was my dream to become a lawyer or a doctor. 438 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Were they children any twins? Triplets? Here? 439 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: No, no one after the other. If you put my 440 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: pregnancies back to back, I was in the state of 441 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: fecundittee for six years. Yeah, so I actually, you know, 442 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 2: I actually saw a lot in the health system during 443 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: that that that's small, that period of nine years where 444 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: I was pregnant and you could I could see the 445 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 2: guideline changes from you know, for things and just being 446 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: a patient every year. 447 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean, I guess people must have made 448 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: these sort of jokes. But if you can manage it, 449 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: I've got three kids. If you can manage a kids, 450 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: probably you can manage New Zealand's economy. 451 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 2: Well, three economies of scales from three kids. Number one 452 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: is just mind blowing. It was the hardest number two, 453 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: you're just like, oh my gosh, what do we do 454 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: with two? You kind of have an idea I found 455 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: from number three. You're always tired, You're always changing someone's bump, 456 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 2: someone's always crying, someone's always hungry. You just give up 457 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: and you just realize that actually you just relax as 458 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 2: a parent and just go with the flow. 459 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: It must be a point at which the older ones 460 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: can help out a bit, is that? 461 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, actually they kind of do. Like my oldest girl, 462 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: she you know, I look back and I think, fah, 463 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: she was pretty mature for a three year old and 464 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: what she could do and things like that. I mean, 465 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: and it's great. You kind of teach them home skills 466 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: quite early. So we have this. We have this kind 467 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 2: of thing with our older girls. They roster her on 468 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 2: for food budget. So each week it's one one of 469 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: our daughters. Our son doesn't do it because he just 470 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: can't be bothered, but he also trains a lot for rugby. 471 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: So one daughter will have the budget for the week 472 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: for food. She will go online, she will do the 473 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: meal planned for the food for the week. She'll make 474 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 2: sure we have everything else with the shopping list. She 475 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 2: will go online. She will do the online shopping. Dad 476 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: will go pick it up from pack and save later 477 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: in the week. Whatever they get to keep, whatever is 478 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: left over in the food budget, well it's pretty good. 479 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 2: So up to one hundred dollars. It cannot be more 480 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: than that because when we realize that, that's where it 481 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: cuts off the efficiencies, and because they basically cut back 482 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: on someone else's budget going forward. But it teaches them 483 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: one how to basically plan for a large fan for 484 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 2: a family. Two, If they make meals that the other 485 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: kids don't like, then the kids protest and then they 486 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: end up having to go into their own pocket to 487 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: buy takeaways or something to top it up. And then three, 488 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm coming home with a bag 489 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 2: of shopping and it's like, well, mam, where did you 490 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: get that money from? You know, they become basically they 491 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: understand budgets. Yeah, I'm the only income owner in the house. 492 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: So I do go back to them, I say, all 493 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: this money is money that mum's in. 494 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So you're instilling that kind of sense of 495 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: value of money early on. I mean, I guess going back, 496 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: did you you know you must have got a good 497 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: sense of that yourself growing up. You've obviously been good 498 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: with money. Is it you think it's a sort of 499 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: an innate thing or is it. 500 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 2: Always be better with money? That's for sure. You know, 501 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: there's always still the temptation a new coat would be nice. 502 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: But I think it's just when you don't. You know 503 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,920 Speaker 2: economics that it's very purest form is about the allocation 504 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: of resources, right, So when you're growing up in a 505 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: household where there is not much resource, you basically become 506 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: a bit more smarter with how things are done. So 507 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 2: I think that is a lesson learned very easily growing up. 508 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: We've got a few quick fire questions and one of 509 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 1: them is and you may have touched on it, but 510 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 1: maybe not, who knows. But you know, what's the poorest 511 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: you've ever been? 512 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: Eight dollars in the hand with a family of four, 513 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 2: and that's why every dollar counts. And I know exactly 514 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 2: what it's like to basically have a car going for 515 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 2: a Warner fitness and just praying that it doesn't need 516 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: anything fixed because you don't have much money there to 517 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: fix it. 518 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: So this is in the early days of you having 519 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: four kids, having for. 520 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: Ye two kids. So while I was studying, yeah, I 521 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: was studying, my husband was working in a timber machinery factory, 522 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: and yeah, so when knew, really, when you back then, 523 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: every dollar count. It's also why I'm very strongly labor 524 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: because Helen Clark and Michael Cullen came in and did 525 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 2: a boost for working for family. We went from eight 526 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: dollars in the hand to just over. 527 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: One hundred dollars in the It literally changed your life. 528 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: It changed our life. 529 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Actually I was going to ask you know 530 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: about you know, was there a point at which you 531 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: decided you could see that you wanted to be a 532 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: politician yourself. I see that you worked for Michael Woodhouse 533 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: and Judith Collins you mentioned, and then Stuart Nash, So 534 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: there must. 535 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: Have been anything. They put me off. They put me off. 536 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 2: But again, I'm a mom of eight, so I had 537 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: my day job right and the beehive, but actually my 538 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: nighttime job because I was a lawyer, you know, I 539 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: was the lawyer for the school, lawyer for the rugby club. 540 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: I was on the school boards, I was running sports 541 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,239 Speaker 2: clubs because that's just the things that you do as 542 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: a parent. For me, actually, it was the death of 543 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 2: two board members at the local school I was on 544 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: the board. I was with that May they'd both been 545 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: working for decades to try and change things in our community. 546 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: And Pottydoer and that basically at both their deaths, almost 547 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: similar speeches, you know, saying these men were not perfect men, 548 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 2: but they tried their hardest. And for me, that was 549 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 2: my epiphany moment and the death of the second one 550 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: at the MIDI and Pottydoer, where I just decided becoming 551 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 2: a politician was a way to get change on steroids 552 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 2: and I. 553 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: Was in right. So that was a very specific Yeah, 554 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: it was a very specific. Yeah, it's interesting. Another quick question, 555 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: what's the most indulgent purchase you've ever made? 556 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 2: Probably some perfume? Yeah, yeah, I mean it sounds I 557 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: mean it's it was only a few hundred dollars, but 558 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: I'm normally, you know, like for some woman, they'll know 559 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: what like c K one was some flowers, you know, 560 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: the red door that I kind of grew up with 561 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 2: in the nineties, but actually quite recently I supought myself 562 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 2: by buying a really nice bottle of perfume. 563 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: That's nice. Yeah. Is there anything you still dream of, 564 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: you know, buying for yourself one day or you know, 565 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, like fancy sports car or something for your family. 566 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: We have a family of ten and one hundred and 567 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 2: ten meters square house too. 568 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: Sorry, and it's not. 569 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: It's for pure simplicity reasons. One, we love our neighborhood. 570 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: We bought the house when we actually only had three 571 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: children pregnant with number four, so we weren't expecting to 572 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 2: have that many. Sorry. No, we had four children at 573 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 2: the time, four pregnant number five. And then basically it's 574 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: quite nice to have a low mortgage and to be 575 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: able to use that equity. 576 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah. The during the election campaign, Christopher Luxen 577 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 1: got asked about spending on groceries, and I still think 578 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: he probably misunderstood the question, but anyway, he said he 579 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: spent sixty dollars a week on grocery. Yep, we're interested. 580 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm been interested to know. With eight kids, what is 581 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: your Yeah. 582 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 2: For a family of ten, it's four hundred and eighty dollars. 583 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, a week, So it's a full shopping trolley, I guess, Yeah. 584 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: It is a full shopping trolley. 585 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 1: Can you can you keep the cupboards full or week? 586 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: Or do you have to go? No, I've got teenage 587 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 1: boys and it's hard to keep. 588 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I've got two teenage boys as well. No, 589 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: it's basically again the planning that the girls have to 590 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: go through is where we stock up on things. They're cheaper, 591 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: so in some respect, No, it was four fifty a 592 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: few years ago, but obviously inflation, but yeah for eighty 593 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 2: a week. 594 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's still cheap. 595 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: Forty eight dollars, eight dollars per person over all week 596 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: or yeah. 597 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: There's some serious metal planning going on. 598 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's this bag bowl. 599 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: There's a well as we as record this, there's a 600 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: there's a big fifty million dollar lotto draw coming up. 601 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: Do you ever buy a lot of tickets? And do 602 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: you imagine winning lotto? 603 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 2: Funnily enough, I wasn't there to buy it last year 604 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 2: because I was the Minister of DA all right, yeah 605 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: so I was the lottery law is it? Yeah's official law. 606 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: But I basically I remember a lot of telling me 607 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: it was a bad loock of the minister that is the. 608 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: Head of two hundred dollars, which is going to be bad. 609 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I do know like my I think we 610 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: do have a lot of account but it's more something 611 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: my husband would do rather than me. 612 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just don't have time. 613 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: Ye, fifty million dollars or the beast to whoever. In 614 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 2: some ways I hope that it's not just one person 615 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 2: and then it drops down to the second division and 616 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: it gets spread a bit more. 617 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's something I actually do ask as well. 618 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: So I is how much you know people who do 619 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: imagine winning a lot of how much do you imagine winning? 620 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: Because fifty million could turn your life upside down and 621 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: you might not want that, right, so you might Yeah, 622 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: I mean everybody wants the mortgage. 623 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: Gave me fifty million dollars. I'm all for it. 624 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: It's nice to pay the mortgage all but yeah, a 625 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: couple of big, biggest sort of questions to finish. Actually, 626 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: so maybe this goes to economics too, really, but you know, 627 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: when you look around it at social inequality and the 628 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: things I guess that you know, when I think of 629 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: what labor stands for, For example, what do you I 630 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 1: think the big drivers of inequality in New Zealand are 631 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: at the moment housing. Housing. 632 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes up most of the proportion of a 633 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: person's income. I think about when mum died, if Mum 634 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: and Dad weren't able to capitalize their family scheme benefits 635 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: through a policy of Walton Ash back in the day, 636 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 2: and the government hadn't provided this basically huge property development 637 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: block where you could buy cheap homes. If they didn't 638 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: have that and Dad didn't have a house, I think 639 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: we would have been a worse poverty when mum died. 640 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: But the fact is that we had a certainty of 641 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: a home over our heads. So I can't imagine what 642 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 2: it's like to basically if you know what it's like 643 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: to be with rent and eight dollars in the hand, 644 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: but I can't imagine what it'd be like when you 645 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: have a huge life shock like that where you go 646 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: to basically one very low income and mum and dad. 647 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 2: Dad was an admin clark, Mum was an age care worker, 648 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,479 Speaker 2: so they weren't earning that much anyway. But yeah, housing 649 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: is the biggest is the biggest at the moment basically 650 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: determinant of social factors. 651 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, I guess well, I'm not going to 652 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: get too much specifics about what you think we could 653 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: do about that, but I mean, are the broadly when 654 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: you think about the economics, the way you look at economics, 655 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: what are the pathways for dealing with that. I mean 656 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 1: from you know, a career point of view, you know, 657 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: do you come at it like I guess labor is 658 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: traditionally center left, but you know, how strong are you 659 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: on all that side of things? Well? 660 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: I haven't really thought about what economic theory that it 661 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: would kind of I would line up with, or what 662 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: economists that would you know, pick the kind of my 663 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 2: thinking in particularly when it comes to housing. But I 664 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: do know that in order to build more housing, you've 665 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: got to. 666 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: Have the infrastructure, yeah you know. 667 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 2: And if you don't have the infrastructure, which is something 668 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: that basically governments and councils have basically deferred for so long, 669 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: you get to a point where basically you've reached the 670 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: capacity of the limits of your city and you aren't 671 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: able to build more. So I know that it's not 672 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 2: really answering the question around what sort of economic theory, 673 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: but it's something that basically I believe that when the 674 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: market does fail, the government does have to intervene. 675 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: Yeah you know. 676 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 2: And so the affordable water reforms, the three waters water 677 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: done well needs to be done. Whatever label you want 678 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 2: to put on it, whatever entity or however you want 679 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: to frame it we can't build more without that water 680 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: infrastructure being fixed. 681 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I mean, and I'm not going to ask 682 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: you about tax changes that might fix housing because I 683 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: know labor's busy working on new text policy. 684 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: I guess I could say more generally, though, we need 685 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: to remove this incentive that the tax system provides for 686 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: keys to invest in property. You know, it is definitely 687 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: the tax system does incentivize that. So it's something that 688 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: you know, we get higher wages when we produce more things. 689 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: So being able to look at that through that lens 690 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: as opposed to basically, you know, a cellar in Wagerner 691 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: who's a cleaner gets every dollar of what they've earned, 692 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: but a person that basically through capital doesn't get the 693 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: capital tax. So there has to be a balance there. 694 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, are you someone who believes that tax 695 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: can be a lever for you know, behavioral change and 696 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I mean, obviously, if you know 697 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: you're talking to David Seymour or something, it's get out 698 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: of the way, lowest tax, lowest tax, and let people. 699 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: I think that fundamentally though, it comes down to that 700 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 2: question of and I think we are very much at 701 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 2: that crossroads. Does New Zealand want to be a Singapore 702 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: or do we want to be a Nordic country? You know, 703 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: and clearly because I'm center left and labor, you know, 704 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 2: we would want to be the Nordic country, right. But 705 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: at the same time we have to have that conversation 706 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: with qi's and if qwis don't sign up to it, 707 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: we're just not in government. 708 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: Sure. 709 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 2: So for me around the taxation part, it's not meant 710 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: to incentivize behavior. You want to have a tax neutral system. 711 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: But the way the New Zealand tax system is, I'm 712 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: quite clear it does incentivize but particular behaviors. 713 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, we just finally we always sort of ask 714 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: people if you would become prime minister for a day, 715 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: what you do now? I think I'm not sure if 716 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: it was it might have been Stuart Nash who said 717 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: that you thought you could be prime minister, so you 718 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: may well be wol do you have ambitions for that 719 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: sort of role? 720 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 2: No, I've got eight children. I know if people could say, 721 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: you know, that's a really good well, you know that 722 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: makes you more qualified to be a prime minister. But 723 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: for me, I think the pressure I've seen behind the 724 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: scenes for a long time. I think the pressure that 725 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: it puts on a family, not just a partner, but 726 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,919 Speaker 2: also on the children. I'm quite clear for me, that's 727 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: the boundary, you know. And if I could do it 728 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: in a way that my children could be safe, they 729 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 2: could have their privacy because they are very private people 730 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 2: and should they should be private people. They're all basically 731 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 2: almost in their teens. Why did they want I'm sharing 732 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: pictures of them on Facebook. I don't share pictures of 733 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,240 Speaker 2: my children on you know, social media. That's my boundary. 734 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 2: So so going back to your question and what I 735 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 2: do of as Prime Minister for the day never going 736 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 2: to happen. 737 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 1: But if we could hypothetically give you, give you control 738 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: of New Zealand to change implement some big is this 739 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: something you would like to see change most, you know, 740 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: if you know, just in terms of the thing you 741 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: think might make the most difference, if New Zealanders could 742 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: sort of change its attitude to something, you know. I'm 743 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: trying to ask this question without being too policy Yeah, yeah, 744 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: policy specific. 745 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 2: It's hard. It's a hard question, right, I mean, there 746 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 2: are so many things you could pick. Housing, you could 747 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: pick saving dolphins, because I know Cinda used to get 748 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: lots of letters from kids about saving the Hector's dolphin. 749 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 2: For me, I think it sounds so fluffy, but I 750 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 2: feel like we're in a situation at the moment in 751 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: our country where the loudest voice gets the loudest time, 752 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: the most airtime. You know. For me, I'd be like, 753 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 2: get off your phone's people, and go and talk to 754 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: each other. Like, go say hello to your neighbor, you know, 755 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 2: go share a meal with your friends. I think for me, 756 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,919 Speaker 2: if it sounds so fluffy, but if I was Prime 757 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: Minister of the day, given everything that's happening at the moment, 758 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: I'd say to people, put down your phone and engage 759 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 2: with your families and your friends. 760 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: It's a bit of communication, yeah, talking to the community, because. 761 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 2: It's totally different. What people would say to you online 762 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 2: is not what they'd say to your face. Right, And like, 763 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 2: I've just come back from a speech in North Barboro 764 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 2: and I had a person who was quite strong around 765 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 2: his views on a particular thing, and it's just like, 766 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 2: let's go talk about this afterwards. Yeah, And they don't 767 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: come and see you afterwards. It's very much for them, 768 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 2: it's just an opportunity for just to yell at what 769 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: their views were. But we're better than that. Kiwis are 770 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: better than that. 771 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: Most debates can happen face, much better. 772 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 2: Than much easier, you know, because things are nuanced as 773 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: opposed to being online. So yeah, fluffy as it is, 774 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: you know, it'd be like, Okay, here's a day where 775 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: everyone puts away their phones and just enjoys being with 776 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 2: your family and friends and let's just remember what makes 777 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 2: New Zealand special. 778 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: That's great. Well, look, I'm I'm gonna leave it there, 779 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: but thank you very much, Barbara, Barbara Edmonds, thanks for 780 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: being on Money Talks. 781 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: Awesome. 782 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: Thank you jud Thanks for listening to this episode of 783 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: Money Talks. If you want to get in touch, drop 784 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: me a line at Liam dot Dan at zme dot 785 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: co dot nz and you can read more from me 786 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: at inzidherld dot co dot MZED. Thanks to my producer 787 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: Ethan Sills and sound engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks 788 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, with new 789 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: episodes available every Thursday.