1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: How many ministries is too many? Will A report out 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: today says we have way too many. The New Zealand 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: Initiative reckons we could easily cut over twenty departments and 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: actually make our bureaucracy run smoother. So Flur Fitzimons is 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: the PSA National Secretary, and she joins me. Now, Helloflur, 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Then we go his first Sorry, the buttons wasn't working 7 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: very well. 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: Hello Flur, good morning. 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: So we got eighty one ministerial portfolios, twenty eight ministers, 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: forty three departments, three times as many portfolios and nearly 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: twice as many departments as comparable countries like Ireland. Surely 12 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: this can be rationalized. 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: Well, look, we don't object to the discussion about this, 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 2: but I think you have to understand that it's taking 15 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: place in a political context driven by the ACT Party. 16 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 2: He David Seymour was very supportive of an earlier version 17 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: of this report, and he's been consistent in saying we 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: need to dismiss thousands more public servants and we need 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: to move towards models of privatization. Now, I don't think 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: that's going to find favor with New Zealanders, and I 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 2: think it would be very dangerous for the delivery of 22 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 2: public services. So there's a lot of red flags of 23 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: this report. 24 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: Do you really think it's just ACT Party and the 25 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: ACT Party supporters that are a bit worried about the 26 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: bloated size of our public service? Don't you think it's 27 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: much more widespread. 28 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: Well, when you say bloater, let's look at some of 29 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: the proposals in this report. They, for example, suggest merging 30 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: the Cancer Control Agency into the Ministry of Health. In 31 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: New Zealand, we've had cancer advocates for years calling for 32 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: an agency to hold our health system to accounts. They 33 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: finally got it in the Cancer Control Agency. This report 34 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: doesn't look at the value of that agency, the history 35 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 2: of its creation, or the importance of its work. It 36 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: simply looks at numbers. Now, when you do that, when 37 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: it comes to something like public policy, it's actually very dangerous. 38 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: But no, I don't think it's as simple as a numbers. 39 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: Whereas the go to for advocates when they say we've 40 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: got to do something about cancer to or just automatically 41 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: say well, let's have another ministry, let's have another department, 42 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: let's have another bureaucracy. 43 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to downplay the work that those 44 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: patient advocates did in the frustration that they felt with 45 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: our health system when it came to getting decent cancer treatment. 46 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 2: But it's not just those patient advocates. So if you 47 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: look at what happens in New Zealand where we have 48 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: a disaster or a significant event that we need to investigate, 49 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: we set up a Royal commission, so Pipe River, abuse 50 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 2: in state care, the christ Church terrorist attack. Now those 51 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 2: commissions look carefully at what went wrong that led to 52 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: these disasters and how we could do better. If you 53 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: look at the recommendations of those commissions, none of them 54 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: say less public services or less investment in public services. 55 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: They all say we need to do more, we need 56 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: to look more carefully. Here's how we need to set 57 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: up our public policy administration in New Zealand. 58 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: Let's just take the money out of it. Let's take 59 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: the advocacy out of it. But doesn't the amount of 60 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: bureaucrats we currently have just lead to confusion and are 61 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: slowing down of our public service. For instance, MB currently 62 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: answers to twenty different ministers. That's confusing. 63 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: Well, actually, that's the kind of consolidation that this report's 64 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: asking for. More of so if that's confusing, then the 65 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: reporter is itself confusing, and I think it is. It 66 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: actually just takes a numerica in that analysis and overlays 67 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: it onto public agencies. There's no proper assessment of the 68 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: importance of, for example, the work of the Ministry for women, 69 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: or the work of the Ministry for specific people, their history, 70 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: the role that they play. And I think it's just 71 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: too simplistic when you look at it that way. 72 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: All right, flirt and I thank you so much for 73 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: your time today. Flurfit Simon says from the PSAG is 74 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: the National Secretary. For more from earlier edition with Ryan Bridge. 75 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: Listen live to News Talks it Be from five am weekdays, 76 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.