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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now the Leyton

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Speaker 1: Smith podcast cowered by news Talks B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts three hundred and sixteen or February eighteen,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. Doctor Mike Schmidt is one of those

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Speaker 2: people that I find the interesting, in fact sometimes fascinating.

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Speaker 2: He is a highly qualified man and I shall endorse

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Speaker 2: that comment with a list as a Master's in Organization

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Speaker 2: Change and Resilience. He has a postgraduate certificate in Connected Environments.

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Speaker 2: He has a Company Director's Certificate New Zealand Institute of Directors,

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Speaker 2: a Certificate of English Language Teaching to Adults from the

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Speaker 2: University of Cambridge, Doctorate of Business Administration Supply and Demand

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Speaker 2: Theory University of South Australia. Are Masters of Business Administration

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Speaker 2: and MBA Masters of Science Thesis and Special Papers General Microbiology,

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Speaker 2: molecular Genetics, Immunology and Virology from the University of Otago

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Speaker 2: and also from the University of Otago Bachelor of Science

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Speaker 2: by Microbiology and immunology, with special papers in botany and anatomy.

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Speaker 2: Now there's more than that, but that's the essential list.

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Speaker 2: So you can see that he's he's well. You might

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Speaker 2: say he's been a professional student, but he has put

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Speaker 2: it to good use and he's traveled much of the

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Speaker 2: world and worked in many places. We had him on

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Speaker 2: the podcast for two hundred and thirty three. That was

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Speaker 2: about two years ago. So he returns today because because

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Speaker 2: this is an election year and he has some advice

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Speaker 2: and while it's directed at Chris Luckson, it's probably applicable

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Speaker 2: to any politician who wants to improve his or her lot.

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Speaker 2: So it's a fascinating conversation I think, and Mike Schmidt

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Speaker 2: will join us shortly. But first, politics on both sides

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Speaker 2: of the Tasman has reverted to the days of well

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Fraser and Rob Muldoon I think. In other words,

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Speaker 2: there are things happening on both sides of the Tasman

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Speaker 2: and they're fascinating. The Liberal Party in Australia, of course,

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Speaker 2: was the biggest party for a long long time and

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Speaker 2: Robert Menzie serve Robert Menzies was the best Prime minister

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Speaker 2: of the country's ever had as I think we'll hear

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Speaker 2: again in the Male room today. But with the election

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Speaker 2: by the party for Angus Taylor to become its leader,

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Speaker 2: they've taken a step in the right direction, a huge

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Speaker 2: step after what they've been struggling with for some time now.

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Speaker 2: For those of us who think that we could be

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Speaker 2: proven wrong, because you always can when it comes to politics,

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Speaker 2: but I'm very hopeful that the Liberal Party will restore

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Speaker 2: itself down the track somewhere to a position that it

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Speaker 2: has had before, because otherwise the country's doomed. And I

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Speaker 2: think there's not too much discussion about that. When we

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Speaker 2: were in Sydney, everyone wanted to know about New Zealand politics.

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Speaker 2: I think I mentioned that everyone wanted to know about

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Speaker 2: people here like Erica Stanford and mister Jones, So there

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Speaker 2: are people here who want to know about things in Australia.

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Speaker 2: After the election, Rowan Dean, who is the editor of

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Speaker 2: Spectator and of course heads up The Outsiders, on a

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Speaker 2: Sunday on Sky wrote a very short article. No, he

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Speaker 2: wrote a very short commentry and it was published in Spectator,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just going to quote it because it's telling,

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Speaker 2: it's good and I know the writing he wrote after

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Speaker 2: missing by a whisker being shot in the head. Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump's instinctive battle cry was to fight, Fight, Fight, So

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Speaker 2: to the Liberal Party has just avoided a near death

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Speaker 2: experience by jettisoning Suzanne Lee and the hopeless, hapless moderate ethos,

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Speaker 2: a pathetic creed more deadly to electoral success than any

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Speaker 2: assassin's bullet. Angus Taylor must now two fight, fight, fight,

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Speaker 2: Fight the last vestiges of Turnbull era liberalism, fight the

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Speaker 2: destructive ideology of identity and climate politics. Above all, he

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Speaker 2: must fight to dismantle, decimate, and destroy the worst government

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Speaker 2: in Australia's history. This is the fight Angus Taylor has

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Speaker 2: been preparing for audi life. He must not flinch, he

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Speaker 2: must not waiver. As Tony Abbatis said, the next election

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Speaker 2: can now be won. Mister Taylor's solid election victory, basically

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Speaker 2: a sixty to forty win, mirrors the last decent victory

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Speaker 2: Australian Conservatives enjoyed, that of the Voice referendum. I have

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Speaker 2: always maintained that there is a natural sixty forty conservative

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Speaker 2: majority in this nation, but one which cannot abide wishy, washy,

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Speaker 2: small l liberal bedwetting. It's up to mister Taylor to

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Speaker 2: harness that note. Working with his national colleagues and one nation,

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Speaker 2: we urgently need mister Taylor to offer up sound policies

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Speaker 2: to slash immigration, slash spending, and destroy the climate change wrought.

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Speaker 2: The fight is there to be won. The enemy is labor.

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Speaker 2: The role of the opposition is not to hold this

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Speaker 2: bad labor government to account, quote unquote. You hear that

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Speaker 2: all the time, hold him to account. That's not the job.

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Speaker 2: It is to destroy it. And from this broadcaster's perspective,

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Speaker 2: it's much the same here. That's the job that needs

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Speaker 2: to be done. Have we got the people to do it? Anyway?

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Speaker 2: We'll get onto some of that in the interview in

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Speaker 2: a few moments right after a short break. Buccolan is

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Speaker 2: a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form called bacterial licate.

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Speaker 2: It'll boost your natural protection against bacterial infections in your

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Speaker 2: chest and throat. A three day course of seven Buckelan

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Speaker 2: tablets will help your body build up to three months

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Speaker 2: of immunity against bugs which cause bacterial cold symptoms. So

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Speaker 2: who can take buccolan well, the whole family from two

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Speaker 2: years of age and upwards. A course of Buckelan tablets

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Speaker 2: offers cost effective and safe protection from colds and chills.

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Speaker 2: Protection becomes effective a few days after you take buccolan

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Speaker 2: and lasts for up to three months following the three

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Speaker 2: day course. Buccolan can be taken throughout the cold season,

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Speaker 2: over winter, or all the year round. And remember Buckelan

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Speaker 2: is not intended as an alternative to influenza vaccination, but

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Speaker 2: may be used along with the flu vaccination for added protection.

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Speaker 2: And keep in mind that millions of doses have been

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Speaker 2: taken by Kiwis for over fifty years. Only available from

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Speaker 2: your pharmacist. Always read the label and users directed, and

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Speaker 2: see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker or clumb.

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Speaker 3: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Mike Schmidt is a nexialist. Now, if you don't

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Speaker 2: know what that is, we'll get round to it in

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Speaker 2: a moment. He's a man of many parts. He's got qualifications.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking university education specifically, but others in various fields

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Speaker 2: like science, business, it and he knows a lot of

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Speaker 2: things and I find him, I find him very interesting.

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Speaker 2: When I spoke with him the last time, it was

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Speaker 2: in Podcasts two hundred and thirty three. Well, this is

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Speaker 2: three hundred and sixteen, so it's been a bit of

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Speaker 2: water under the bridge. But if you want to know

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Speaker 2: what he is a nextialist, go back listen to the

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Speaker 2: introduction of two hundred and thirty three and you'll find out.

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Speaker 2: And it was so long. That's why I'm not repeating it,

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Speaker 2: because you can go and find it for yourselves. So

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Speaker 2: it is with great pleasure I say, welcome back to

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Speaker 2: the podcast, Mike, Thank you very much. So the reason

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Speaker 2: is you write a note to me. We stay in

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Speaker 2: touch occasionally, but you wrote a note to me very

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Speaker 2: recently about something that you had worked your way into,

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Speaker 2: which I suppose involves the nextierism, if that's a word.

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Speaker 2: But it has to do with politics, and it has

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Speaker 2: to do with business, It has to do with the world,

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Speaker 2: and it has to do with I think everybody who

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Speaker 2: was listening to this podcast, and even those who aren't.

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Speaker 2: Is that a fair assumption, Yes, definitely. So let me

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Speaker 2: quote from this Luxon from Legacy to Resilience. I have

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Speaker 2: previously described Christopher Luxon as a legacy manager, someone who

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Speaker 2: operates by inertia, defends inherited frame works, and mistakes enforcement

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Speaker 2: for imagination. His support of The current proposal to ban

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Speaker 2: those under sixteen from the Internet is a good example.

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Speaker 2: Keep in mind that this was this was written for

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Speaker 2: it went through parliament. The description still holds. His instinct

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Speaker 2: is to reach for legislation, his reflex is to patch,

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Speaker 2: and his style remains managerial. However, I do not criticize

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Speaker 2: without offering solutions. The question is not whether Luxon can

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Speaker 2: rehabilitate his leadership, but how What he must do is

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Speaker 2: shift from legacy management to resilience leadership, and he must

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Speaker 2: do it before the next election. Now there, I'll stop

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Speaker 2: because I want you to to take over and explain

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Speaker 2: to us what you actually mean. But first I have

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Speaker 2: a question. Is this a because it sounds like it

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Speaker 2: to this point, is this a hit job on Luckson

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Speaker 2: or you of some other mind.

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Speaker 3: No, it's not a hit job on lucks and specific

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Speaker 3: He's just emblematic of the style of management that seems

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Speaker 3: to rule and politics, but also in the bureaucracy in

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Speaker 3: Wellington or It's legacy management is all around us, to

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Speaker 3: be honest, It's in our corporate it's in our bureaucracy.

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Speaker 3: It's particularly within our politicians. It's where they're so used

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Speaker 3: to doing the same reaching for the same levers of

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Speaker 3: control as they did in the past, and they used

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Speaker 3: to work that they automatically do it. Now they're very

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Speaker 3: process managed, and if you go to any of the

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Speaker 3: government websites you can see that. You know, for example,

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Speaker 3: if you're making an application for a grand through MBIE,

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Speaker 3: the whole thing is so process orientated it virtually acts

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Speaker 3: as a filter against people who really are innovators. That

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Speaker 3: it's quite bizarre.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it is bizarre, and that organization has outgrown it,

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Speaker 2: I won't say usefulness, but outgrown its purpose. Just give

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Speaker 2: us a brief description of what a next list is, okay.

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Speaker 3: I first came across the idea of nexialism when I

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Speaker 3: read the book The Vodge of the Space Beagle by A.

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Speaker 3: Van Gott. It was written in nineteen fifty two and

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Speaker 3: it dealt with a guy who has put upon the Beagle, which,

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Speaker 3: just like the Beagel historically was a ship that went

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Speaker 3: around the world doing investigations. He was on a space

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Speaker 3: going around the universe doing investigations. But his particular ability

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Speaker 3: was that he was across all of the disciplines, whether

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Speaker 3: it was science, whether it's humanities, or whether it was

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Speaker 3: medicine or some other discipline, and it was his job

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Speaker 3: to bring together all these disciplines to find unique solutions

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Speaker 3: to the unique problems they came across during the voyage.

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Speaker 2: Are there many of you?

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Speaker 3: I think there are quite a few of us. Many

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Speaker 3: people are what you call futurists who pulled together a

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Speaker 3: variety of ideas. An example of this would be Stephen Pinker,

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Speaker 3: who was in giving a speech. I think it was

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Speaker 3: January sixteen or seventeen. Another guy is Nias Lomberg, who

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Speaker 3: is a Danish economist who undeals in climate change and

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Speaker 3: the consequences of it, where he has the ability to

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Speaker 3: put together all the economic data but include demographics and

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Speaker 3: technology changes to provide a synthesis of how climate change

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Speaker 3: could or should be managed.

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Speaker 2: How accurate is.

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Speaker 3: He oh, I think he's pretty jolly good. And some

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Speaker 3: of the facts that he brings out. For example, there

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Speaker 3: are these claims all the time that there's more wildfires

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Speaker 3: in Australia than there ever was before, but he shows

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Speaker 3: the satellite data which actually says that there are not

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Speaker 3: more fires. The problem is that there's more people near

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Speaker 3: areas where there are fires, so it all looks a

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Speaker 3: lot more dramatic than it really is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and it's crazy in Australia because they build into

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Speaker 2: the bush and then expect everything to go hunky dory.

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Speaker 3: I would say, in reality, fewer people dying catastrophes nowadays

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Speaker 3: and ever died ever before in history, because the systems

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Speaker 3: of support have just become so much better.

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Speaker 2: So let's get back to the Prime Minister. He said

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Speaker 2: it's not a hit job. So what are you suggesting

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Speaker 2: that he does to help himself into another term.

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Speaker 3: Well, there are actually two things, two primary things that

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Speaker 3: I think that he could do. The first thing I

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Speaker 3: would say is regarding immigration. Like all legacy managers, they

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Speaker 3: tend to grab the same levers of control that they

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Speaker 3: had in the past and expect to get different results, which,

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Speaker 3: as Einstein said, is quite crazy. For example, immigration New

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Speaker 3: Zealand ex COVID twenty twenty two is one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty four thousand migrant arrivals. Still there was a job

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Speaker 3: shortage apparently twenty twenty three, one hundred and thirty eight

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Speaker 3: thousand arrivals. Still apparently there's a shortage and skill talent.

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Speaker 3: And then in twenty two before we had another one

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Speaker 3: hundred and thirty eight thousand. That was year to date

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Speaker 3: for December, and then apparently just on the paper the

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Speaker 3: other day he said there's still a shortage of skilled migrants. Well,

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Speaker 3: with unemployment running at five point four percent, that's a

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Speaker 3: December figure and that means about one hundred and sixty

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Speaker 3: five thousand people are unemployed. Does it not occur to

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Speaker 3: him that the immigration imports that he is supporting is

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Speaker 3: not actually solving the problem and maybe we should look

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Speaker 3: internally and start to train people up. And there is

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Speaker 3: a massive shortage of trained people and the skills on

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Speaker 3: their trades. So that's one example of how he's continually

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Speaker 3: reaching for the same lever again and again and expecting

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Speaker 3: a different result and it's just simply not working.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So if you're well, you're going to say an

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Speaker 2: addition one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say, in addition to that,

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Speaker 3: we've got the energy crisis in New Zealand and we

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Speaker 3: absolutely need to build more energy production and we're not

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Speaker 3: addressing it in a serious manner that I think that

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Speaker 3: we should have been addressing it. And instead, if you

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Speaker 3: bring in one hundred and twenty thousand people as an example,

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Speaker 3: then that increases New Zealand's population by two percent, and

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Speaker 3: all those people need to be fair clothed, housed. And

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Speaker 3: at the basis behind all is energy and we're already

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Speaker 3: having problems with energy, but you're bringing in more people.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's the same across the Tasman and in fact

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Speaker 2: it's probably the same around the world, is it not.

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Speaker 3: That's true. But this cold comfort and being equally as wrong.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't heard that before, and I like it. So

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Speaker 2: if you're talking to the Prime Minister, you're sitting in

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Speaker 2: his office and he's asking your advice, seeing that you're

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Speaker 2: such a clever nextialist, what do you tell him?

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Speaker 3: Well, let's say, Chris, what we need is a more

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Speaker 3: holistic and temporal plan to go forward. We need to

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Speaker 3: know that all these things well, hold it.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do this to you because there are

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Speaker 2: words you used, and temporal is not a common word.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean?

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Speaker 3: All right? So, Chris, what we need is a better

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Speaker 3: structured and more holistic plan going forward. We need one

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Speaker 3: that takes into account that everything's interrelated. So if you

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Speaker 3: bring in more people, you need more housing, you need

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Speaker 3: more energy, you need more infrastructure, And he'd say yes,

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Speaker 3: and I'd say, but you also need to integrate into

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Speaker 3: that demographics, we will very soon have a declining population.

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Speaker 3: Already the birth rate amongst native New Zealanders, not self

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Speaker 3: sustaining in our population is only growing because of immigration.

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Speaker 3: When that starts to decline and fall, because even immigrants

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Speaker 3: having been brought in start to apply accommodate to the

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Speaker 3: same sort of size families, particularly if the houses are smaller,

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Speaker 3: if you've got a bit of education system and so

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Speaker 3: on and so forth. So you need to account for that.

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Speaker 3: You know, everything is intertwined. But it seems so the

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Speaker 3: government are using short term solutions reactively. And this is

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Speaker 3: not just the national government, sorry, the Coalition government. It's

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Speaker 3: also the labor government. You know, they're ideological push to

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Speaker 3: get rid of fossil fuels and things like that, but

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Speaker 3: it's also our public service. We see that they are

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Speaker 3: very short term in the way they regard situations. The

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Speaker 3: example that I've mentioned to people is housing. Under John Keys,

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Speaker 3: it was, oh, we've got to sell off some of

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Speaker 3: our housing stock, and yet just a few years later,

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Speaker 3: when labors in government, they're saying, oh, we need to

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Speaker 3: build one hundred thousand houses we're short in our housing stock.

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Speaker 3: I mean, these people are just not thinking forward in

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Speaker 3: time as to actually what is required and why. Rather,

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Speaker 3: the bureaucracy seems to try and take care of itself

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Speaker 3: with some short term accommodate this three year government or

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Speaker 3: that three year government, rather than say, well, we're going

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Speaker 3: to need its amount of houses over the next twenty years.

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Speaker 3: We've better start now.

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Speaker 2: Based on your knowledge, which Prime Minister of the country

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Speaker 2: would you say was the closest to what you're raising

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Speaker 2: what you're discussing.

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Speaker 3: He's not Prime minister, but I would say that probably

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Speaker 3: Shane Jones is the closest to doing it. The other

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Speaker 3: but that's on the energy front. I'd say David Seymour

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Speaker 3: is also close because he's actually looking on the racial front.

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Speaker 3: It was said in the past that, you know, the

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Speaker 3: solution to New Zealand's integration problems will be made in

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Speaker 3: the bedroom. I can't remember the name of the guy

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Speaker 3: who said it, but they're basically saying that, you know,

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Speaker 3: with intermarriage and all that sort of stuff, there is

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Speaker 3: going to be a hollowing out of the identity of

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Speaker 3: particular racial groups in New Zealand, and we should actually

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Speaker 3: probably move forward on that basis, So courage.

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Speaker 2: What you're telling us is that there hasn't been a

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Speaker 2: prime minister that has the capacity that you're in favor of.

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Speaker 3: Not recently.

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Speaker 2: Know what does that say?

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Speaker 3: Mostly it says that the best and brightest are not

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Speaker 3: going into politics, probably because and I'll quote a friend

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Speaker 3: of mine who is a female, non European doctor, and

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Speaker 3: I said to her, you know, why don't you go

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Speaker 3: into politics? And she said, oh, God, no, but make

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Speaker 3: much more money about going into politics. Why would I

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Speaker 3: want to do that? So that's one reason. But the

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Speaker 3: other reason is we also have a public service itself

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Speaker 3: that goes from government to government. And I'm sure those

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Speaker 3: who have watched the television series Yes Minister understand that

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Speaker 3: the public service, and they say that loosely. They know

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Speaker 3: that they'll survive from government to government and they have

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Speaker 3: their own agenda which includes not rocking the boat, which

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Speaker 3: includes short term solutions to maslage whoever is in power

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Speaker 3: at the time, but all the time having their own

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Speaker 3: long term agenda for their own careers and their own security.

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Speaker 3: And if we look at a public service in New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: you can also see their own ideology.

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Speaker 2: Taking into account that your nextialist view, how would you

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Speaker 2: describe the public service?

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Speaker 3: I think the public service in New Zealand is very

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Speaker 3: ideologically driven and very limited because they're also legacy driven,

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Speaker 3: so they look at all the same leads and tools

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Speaker 3: in order to achieve their I would say, more progressive agenda.

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Speaker 3: This is really easy to spot. For example, you go

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Speaker 3: to the doc website de Partner Conservation and you'll see

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Speaker 3: that they've got their rainbow tick there, and they've got diversity,

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Speaker 3: equity and inclusion and all that sort of stuff. But

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Speaker 3: you'd be very hard put to find whether or not

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Speaker 3: they had any mention of merit. And yet presumably a

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Speaker 3: meritorious public service is exactly what you want, but it's

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Speaker 3: not actually what we're getting. We're getting a public service

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Speaker 3: that is driven by other objective and you virtually have

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Speaker 3: to force them to rewrite their job at and recently

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Speaker 3: in order to make them in line with the law

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Speaker 3: and also with the policies of the current government. But

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Speaker 3: I suppose they think that they can just sit out

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Speaker 3: the current coalition and I hope that labor comes in next.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know that there are incompetent people who get

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Speaker 2: appointed to possessions of ministers. I'm not saying all of

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Speaker 2: them by any stretch, but they exist and they are

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Speaker 2: easily manipulated. Right yep. Why then, why then have we

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Speaker 2: tolerated it? You've got two You've got two teams here, really,

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Speaker 2: you've got your political team and you've got your public,

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Speaker 2: the voting team. Why haven't we conquered this sort of crisis?

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Speaker 2: I'd call it that exists in this country, but it

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Speaker 2: never gets addressed.

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Speaker 3: I think that the voting public are in the process

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Speaker 3: of addressing that issue, and the evidence for that is

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Speaker 3: that we now have a coalition government and the politicians

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Speaker 3: have actually had to group themselves together or else they

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have sufficient support because people are now dividing their

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Speaker 3: vote depending upon who they feel more strongly aligned with.

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Speaker 3: So I think the public has recognized that there is

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Speaker 3: this issue, and I think the public is responding to it.

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Speaker 3: I think that the politicians themselves, to a certain extent

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Speaker 3: are responding to it, but many of them are held

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Speaker 3: back by the advice they get and also by the

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Speaker 3: as I said, legacy management habits. For example, pres Luxen

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Speaker 3: comes from corporate. Now corporate also has its own style

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Speaker 3: of management, which is very much towards financial quarters and

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Speaker 3: very much towards pragmatic results, but it's not really orientated

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Speaker 3: towards laying the seeds that need to be laid now

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Speaker 3: for a review of the public service as time goes on,

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Speaker 3: for stronger and more resilient energy infrastructure as things go on.

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Speaker 3: They're more short sighted than that. And the example I

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Speaker 3: used in one of the articles I wrote was, you know,

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Speaker 3: here we have Luxon turning up to open the IKEA,

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Speaker 3: whereas in reality, if he was thinking further ahead, he

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Speaker 3: should be in danny Vik and danny Vik with a

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Speaker 3: built of solar farm and also built an infrastructure of

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Speaker 3: more independence because you know they're always being flooded and

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Speaker 3: things like that. He should have been up via opening

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Speaker 3: that up and then trumpeting that as an example of

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Speaker 3: what we could or should be doing in communities at risk.

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Speaker 3: For example, Gisbon.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand is currently very fragile. You're right, both economically

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Speaker 2: and structurally, and this makes the situation all that more urgent.

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Speaker 2: We have seen how storms on the West Coast can

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Speaker 2: knock out transmission lines and leave communities in blackout. How

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Speaker 2: cyclone Gabrielle devastated hawks bay orchards and livelihoods. These are

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Speaker 2: not isolated events. They are symptoms of a system stretched, thin,

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Speaker 2: exposed and unprepared. It is something that I wrote about

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Speaker 2: over five years ago in a letter printed in the

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Herald concerning New Zealand's electricity system and how

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Speaker 2: Transpower is failing in its duties five years ago. With

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Speaker 2: a relatively new CEO, James Kitty, installed in February of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, a new opportunity presents itself. Resilience must

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Speaker 2: become an organizing principle of Luxon's leadership. Link those two

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Speaker 2: together for us.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I would link the two except for the fact

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Speaker 3: that I've had a longer thought and I think that

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Speaker 3: resilience is not quite the correct word, because in many cases,

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Speaker 3: resilience is just an excuse for managed to climb. And

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Speaker 3: we can see this in the UK, where they basically

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Speaker 3: be managing decline over the past two decades and now

407
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Speaker 3: they've got to the point where the energy costs are

408
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Speaker 3: so high and the infrastructure is so run down that

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Speaker 3: it's almost beyond fixing. Here in New Zealand, we have

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Speaker 3: a similar situation where we have an average increase in

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Speaker 3: energy demand of about one point two five percent per year,

412
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Speaker 3: but our production of energy is in no way keeping

413
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Speaker 3: up with that, and Hunting Power Plant needs an overhaul seriously.

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Speaker 3: In fact, they were supposed to overhaul two of the

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Speaker 3: generators last year, but instead the generators were in constant use.

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Speaker 3: And also they should overhaul it to burn gas instead

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Speaker 3: of Indonesian coal, he says ironically, although I think they're

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Speaker 3: switching it to south and coal, and these are all

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Speaker 3: leadership things that actually Luxeon could use as a public

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Speaker 3: policy going forward, you know, to say, look, we are

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Speaker 3: addressing these problems because we recognize them, and here is

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Speaker 3: what we need to do about it. And instead you

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Speaker 3: don't see that sort of upfront address where the whole

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Speaker 3: community could get behind it. Rather you see the situation

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Speaker 3: being worsened by bringing in another one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 3: thousand people who will need to have showers and iron

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Speaker 3: their clothes and have energy demand. They're just making the

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Speaker 3: situation worse.

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Speaker 2: Do you really think that we're capable of getting projects

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Speaker 2: and ideas that everybody would support.

431
00:26:18,493 --> 00:26:21,773
Speaker 3: I think that it is in the majority possible, because

432
00:26:21,813 --> 00:26:24,853
Speaker 3: we only really need the majority to and get behind it.

433
00:26:25,213 --> 00:26:27,693
Speaker 3: And there are always going to be some people who

434
00:26:27,733 --> 00:26:30,053
Speaker 3: are going to kick up the fuss about one thing

435
00:26:30,133 --> 00:26:32,373
Speaker 3: or another because nimbi ism, you know, not in my

436
00:26:32,493 --> 00:26:36,093
Speaker 3: backyard is rife in New Zealand. But I'll give you

437
00:26:36,133 --> 00:26:39,773
Speaker 3: an example. We're going to need about three hundred gigawatts

438
00:26:39,813 --> 00:26:43,253
Speaker 3: of extra electricity over the next decade. If we could

439
00:26:43,253 --> 00:26:47,133
Speaker 3: get just as an example, a geothermal plant up and

440
00:26:47,173 --> 00:26:49,053
Speaker 3: going in New Zealand, and there's many sites that we

441
00:26:49,093 --> 00:26:51,533
Speaker 3: could do it, then I think that that would show

442
00:26:52,453 --> 00:26:55,133
Speaker 3: have less resistance than it would to do a new

443
00:26:55,173 --> 00:26:58,173
Speaker 3: project like Kluther or actually you only need one about

444
00:26:58,173 --> 00:27:01,973
Speaker 3: the size of Roxburgh, where all the environmentals would come out.

445
00:27:02,213 --> 00:27:05,853
Speaker 3: It would have less resistance than building another power plant

446
00:27:05,893 --> 00:27:09,453
Speaker 3: that is fueled by oil or coal or gas. So

447
00:27:09,613 --> 00:27:13,653
Speaker 3: you know there are options out there for us Regarding immigration.

448
00:27:13,933 --> 00:27:17,533
Speaker 3: I mean, it's obvious. If you can pay for the

449
00:27:17,573 --> 00:27:19,973
Speaker 3: first year of all the students going to university, I

450
00:27:20,013 --> 00:27:22,053
Speaker 3: don't see why you can't pay for the first year

451
00:27:22,453 --> 00:27:27,533
Speaker 3: of all the tradees becoming electricians, becoming brickies, becoming carpenters

452
00:27:27,533 --> 00:27:29,733
Speaker 3: and sign and so forth. It's just a matter of

453
00:27:29,773 --> 00:27:33,293
Speaker 3: planting the seeds and using cultivation management with a view

454
00:27:33,333 --> 00:27:33,973
Speaker 3: to the future.

455
00:27:35,653 --> 00:27:39,053
Speaker 2: You've done a pretty good job of drawing the distinction

456
00:27:39,173 --> 00:27:44,253
Speaker 2: between university qualifications and see we say trade qualifications. That

457
00:27:44,293 --> 00:27:47,013
Speaker 2: has been I think am I wrong in saying well

458
00:27:47,053 --> 00:27:49,853
Speaker 2: known over a period of time now that you know

459
00:27:49,893 --> 00:27:52,493
Speaker 2: there's no point in going to university, You go out

460
00:27:52,533 --> 00:27:55,213
Speaker 2: and you get a trade and that's where you futureize.

461
00:27:56,093 --> 00:27:58,733
Speaker 2: Or does it contribute to leaving us high and dry

462
00:27:58,773 --> 00:28:01,733
Speaker 2: because they get their qualifications and then scarp of the

463
00:28:01,773 --> 00:28:04,653
Speaker 2: country because they don't see any future here.

464
00:28:06,453 --> 00:28:09,373
Speaker 3: I think the situation is actually worse than what you

465
00:28:09,613 --> 00:28:14,373
Speaker 3: have pointed out the length. Sorry about that, And the

466
00:28:14,453 --> 00:28:18,173
Speaker 3: reason I say it is because I recognized it has

467
00:28:18,253 --> 00:28:23,613
Speaker 3: been recognized that it is more worth while getting a trade.

468
00:28:24,253 --> 00:28:28,373
Speaker 3: There was American television series on it about fifteen years ago.

469
00:28:28,413 --> 00:28:31,413
Speaker 3: It is called Dirty Jobs by some guy called Mike.

470
00:28:32,053 --> 00:28:34,053
Speaker 3: But he pointed out that there's whole other people who

471
00:28:34,053 --> 00:28:36,133
Speaker 3: already sat down with a piece of paper and said, okay,

472
00:28:36,173 --> 00:28:37,653
Speaker 3: am I going to have a student line at the

473
00:28:37,733 --> 00:28:40,573
Speaker 3: end of my qualification or am I already going to

474
00:28:40,573 --> 00:28:43,053
Speaker 3: be employed in the trades? And it works out much

475
00:28:43,093 --> 00:28:46,493
Speaker 3: better that people should have gone into the trades. But

476
00:28:46,533 --> 00:28:50,653
Speaker 3: instead there was this emphasis particularly during the key years

477
00:28:50,893 --> 00:28:53,933
Speaker 3: of everybody should go to university. Then we had the

478
00:28:54,013 --> 00:28:56,813
Speaker 3: universities themselves. And I've actually done a doctorate on this

479
00:28:58,653 --> 00:29:02,213
Speaker 3: dumbing down all the courses, increasing the price of all

480
00:29:02,213 --> 00:29:05,293
Speaker 3: the courses, and actually offering courses that are of no

481
00:29:05,533 --> 00:29:09,653
Speaker 3: constructive value to the country whatsoever. So a trade is

482
00:29:09,693 --> 00:29:11,613
Speaker 3: always going to be better than a course that is

483
00:29:11,653 --> 00:29:15,573
Speaker 3: of no real value. For example, you've done a humanity's

484
00:29:15,653 --> 00:29:22,893
Speaker 3: course in the distinction between female and male television watching

485
00:29:23,533 --> 00:29:28,093
Speaker 3: during premium advertising hours. I mean, well, okay, that's interesting

486
00:29:28,133 --> 00:29:30,933
Speaker 3: for marketing, but it's of no real value, to be honest,

487
00:29:31,413 --> 00:29:32,533
Speaker 3: as a guy who's done marketing.

488
00:29:33,853 --> 00:29:35,693
Speaker 2: Now, I didn't. I didn't know that you got your

489
00:29:35,773 --> 00:29:38,013
Speaker 2: doctorate on that. When when was there?

490
00:29:38,933 --> 00:29:43,373
Speaker 3: Oh? I finished my doctor in twenty ten. The doctorate

491
00:29:43,533 --> 00:29:47,613
Speaker 3: was in supply and demand theory. So it's basically it

492
00:29:47,693 --> 00:29:50,693
Speaker 3: was actually a doctorate in business administration. But I applied

493
00:29:50,693 --> 00:29:54,773
Speaker 3: it to education and I pointed out how as governments

494
00:29:54,813 --> 00:29:58,253
Speaker 3: have guaranteed student loans and things like that, what's happened

495
00:29:58,293 --> 00:30:01,013
Speaker 3: is the university seeing the dollar to be made, has

496
00:30:01,053 --> 00:30:03,813
Speaker 3: simply increased the prices of the courses. And of course

497
00:30:04,013 --> 00:30:06,813
Speaker 3: it's the government that initially pays that and guarantees to

498
00:30:06,813 --> 00:30:09,333
Speaker 3: pay it, but then it's the students who are left

499
00:30:09,333 --> 00:30:13,493
Speaker 3: with the final bill. In addition to that, they've changed

500
00:30:13,533 --> 00:30:16,893
Speaker 3: the courses. For example, MBA courses. You now started to

501
00:30:16,933 --> 00:30:21,813
Speaker 3: get executive NBA courses that would only take you eighteen

502
00:30:21,813 --> 00:30:24,453
Speaker 3: months tour instead of two years to do. You had

503
00:30:24,693 --> 00:30:29,213
Speaker 3: MBAs and specific courses like niche places. Oh there was

504
00:30:29,253 --> 00:30:34,653
Speaker 3: one which is a MBA in females and management. It's like, okay,

505
00:30:35,453 --> 00:30:37,613
Speaker 3: I can see some distinction, but not a whole MBA

506
00:30:37,773 --> 00:30:41,173
Speaker 3: upon it, maybe a couple of units. So you know,

507
00:30:41,373 --> 00:30:47,173
Speaker 3: the universities have actually started to decline quite seriously, whereas

508
00:30:47,213 --> 00:30:51,813
Speaker 3: the trades have actually become in greater demand and in

509
00:30:51,853 --> 00:30:55,853
Speaker 3: addition to that, become far more sophisticated. You know, for example,

510
00:30:56,293 --> 00:30:59,933
Speaker 3: the types of tools that you use in the trades,

511
00:31:00,293 --> 00:31:02,173
Speaker 3: I mean they're a lot more sophisticated than that they

512
00:31:02,213 --> 00:31:05,213
Speaker 3: were thirty or forty years ago, and require a certain

513
00:31:05,253 --> 00:31:07,933
Speaker 3: amount of training in order to use them.

514
00:31:08,813 --> 00:31:12,653
Speaker 2: You discovered anything This is a sort of a sidebar issue,

515
00:31:12,773 --> 00:31:17,493
Speaker 2: but if you discovered anything about the organizations that control

516
00:31:17,573 --> 00:31:22,493
Speaker 2: the trades, be they electricians or engineers or whatever, and

517
00:31:22,853 --> 00:31:25,733
Speaker 2: how they manage things in this day and age.

518
00:31:27,133 --> 00:31:29,613
Speaker 3: No, I haven't, really, I haven't done looked into all

519
00:31:29,653 --> 00:31:33,773
Speaker 3: that much. My main concern has been the shift of

520
00:31:33,813 --> 00:31:38,173
Speaker 3: some of the trades one towards consolidation, which is not

521
00:31:38,293 --> 00:31:40,733
Speaker 3: necessarily a good thing because it means that if you

522
00:31:40,773 --> 00:31:42,733
Speaker 3: want to become a trade and you live in Graymouth,

523
00:31:42,733 --> 00:31:45,773
Speaker 3: you've got to shift all the way to Nelson. But

524
00:31:45,853 --> 00:31:48,373
Speaker 3: also the movement of some of the trade courses into

525
00:31:48,413 --> 00:31:51,373
Speaker 3: the universities, which has more to do once again with

526
00:31:51,733 --> 00:31:54,453
Speaker 3: the universities making money out of the courses and to

527
00:31:54,693 --> 00:31:59,613
Speaker 3: trying to push their own ideological agendas into another section

528
00:31:59,693 --> 00:32:00,333
Speaker 3: of society.

529
00:32:00,693 --> 00:32:04,773
Speaker 2: What I was referring to was the movement within some

530
00:32:04,933 --> 00:32:10,533
Speaker 2: of those organizations into the world of woke, and not

531
00:32:10,653 --> 00:32:12,653
Speaker 2: just not just the toe in the water, but the

532
00:32:12,693 --> 00:32:15,693
Speaker 2: whole leg Why do you think that was Let's say

533
00:32:15,733 --> 00:32:18,213
Speaker 2: that you accept what I've just said, Why do you

534
00:32:18,213 --> 00:32:19,013
Speaker 2: think that happened?

535
00:32:20,533 --> 00:32:23,013
Speaker 3: I think that the reason has happened is that people

536
00:32:24,213 --> 00:32:28,653
Speaker 3: want to feel that they are included in the zeitgeist

537
00:32:28,733 --> 00:32:32,813
Speaker 3: of whatever they think society currently is, and DEI seems

538
00:32:32,853 --> 00:32:34,933
Speaker 3: to be flavor of the month, and as such they

539
00:32:35,213 --> 00:32:39,293
Speaker 3: move into that area. Another reason could be that they

540
00:32:39,293 --> 00:32:43,213
Speaker 3: want to attract women, which are more sympathetic towards DEI

541
00:32:43,293 --> 00:32:47,813
Speaker 3: and other policies like that, into the trades. And once again,

542
00:32:47,853 --> 00:32:50,653
Speaker 3: they make the shift because they're an organization like any other,

543
00:32:50,693 --> 00:32:53,453
Speaker 3: and they want to grow and they want to look good.

544
00:32:54,453 --> 00:32:56,933
Speaker 2: But what if they're growing and looking good and failing

545
00:32:56,933 --> 00:32:58,373
Speaker 2: in their duty at the same time.

546
00:32:59,253 --> 00:33:03,653
Speaker 3: They probably are. They are, I said, they probably are.

547
00:33:03,853 --> 00:33:08,493
Speaker 3: I mean, when you start choosing people outside of the

548
00:33:08,493 --> 00:33:13,333
Speaker 3: basis of merit and ability, then obviously standards will drop.

549
00:33:13,693 --> 00:33:17,813
Speaker 3: Say that again, when you start to choose people outside

550
00:33:18,293 --> 00:33:21,173
Speaker 3: of merit and ability, then standards naturally drop.

551
00:33:21,773 --> 00:33:24,573
Speaker 2: That's been true forever. So let me take it back

552
00:33:24,573 --> 00:33:27,773
Speaker 2: to where we started well in the same vicinity, and

553
00:33:27,813 --> 00:33:34,293
Speaker 2: that is politicians and the management by politicians. Have they

554
00:33:34,333 --> 00:33:39,213
Speaker 2: have we improved our situation anytime over the last few years.

555
00:33:40,733 --> 00:33:45,133
Speaker 3: The evidence is that generally living standards, education standards, and

556
00:33:45,213 --> 00:33:49,573
Speaker 3: so on and so forth are increasing. But that's more

557
00:33:49,613 --> 00:33:53,573
Speaker 3: of a situation of progress despite everything. And when I

558
00:33:53,573 --> 00:33:57,333
Speaker 3: say despite everything, I'm going to say we grind out

559
00:33:57,333 --> 00:34:01,333
Speaker 3: the progress so slowly that our historical mistakes are probably

560
00:34:01,333 --> 00:34:03,293
Speaker 3: going to catch up to us, and we cover that

561
00:34:03,333 --> 00:34:06,453
Speaker 3: when we talked about energy requirements. We're now starting to

562
00:34:06,493 --> 00:34:10,293
Speaker 3: see it regarding houses and silence so forth. But there's

563
00:34:10,333 --> 00:34:13,293
Speaker 3: also the management problem, and that is most of our

564
00:34:13,573 --> 00:34:16,933
Speaker 3: politicians are that the politicians, and some have only ever

565
00:34:16,973 --> 00:34:19,493
Speaker 3: been politicians and that's the way they managed. And with

566
00:34:19,613 --> 00:34:23,733
Speaker 3: three year terms, it's very difficult for them to have

567
00:34:23,813 --> 00:34:29,453
Speaker 3: the time to projects established that will go through different

568
00:34:29,533 --> 00:34:33,693
Speaker 3: governments administrations. You know, we're talking ten or twenty year projects,

569
00:34:34,253 --> 00:34:38,933
Speaker 3: things like reforming New Zealand's energy infrastructure, which is going

570
00:34:38,973 --> 00:34:43,013
Speaker 3: to be an extremely long, complex, arduous and difficult task.

571
00:34:43,293 --> 00:34:46,653
Speaker 3: And if you get getting governments that are changing before

572
00:34:46,693 --> 00:34:48,893
Speaker 3: the project's really been seated in because we've only got

573
00:34:48,893 --> 00:34:52,373
Speaker 3: three year periods which probably suited back in their nineteen

574
00:34:52,413 --> 00:34:55,533
Speaker 3: twenties and that, but not in the twenty twenties, then

575
00:34:56,373 --> 00:35:00,453
Speaker 3: our progress is going to be retarded again and again,

576
00:35:00,493 --> 00:35:04,493
Speaker 3: you know, by this constant shopping and changing, and when

577
00:35:04,533 --> 00:35:06,693
Speaker 3: you don't get the support of the bureaucracy because they

578
00:35:06,693 --> 00:35:10,853
Speaker 3: see themselves naturally threatened some of the changes. One example

579
00:35:10,853 --> 00:35:13,493
Speaker 3: would be the inclusion of AI and a whole lot

580
00:35:13,493 --> 00:35:17,813
Speaker 3: of these process driven systems that the bureaucracy uses an

581
00:35:17,813 --> 00:35:22,653
Speaker 3: example of that being making an application with MBIE. You

582
00:35:22,693 --> 00:35:28,133
Speaker 3: don't need all of these pen pushes basically in all

583
00:35:28,133 --> 00:35:33,733
Speaker 3: the offices, so the whole system needs to be reconfigured.

584
00:35:33,973 --> 00:35:38,293
Speaker 3: So that is a much longer term approach to New

585
00:35:38,333 --> 00:35:39,253
Speaker 3: Zealand's problems.

586
00:35:39,893 --> 00:35:42,973
Speaker 2: How do you suppose then we move into that zone

587
00:35:43,493 --> 00:35:46,293
Speaker 2: where do we get the money? Because it all depends

588
00:35:46,333 --> 00:35:51,213
Speaker 2: on money. Where do we get the money? And how

589
00:35:51,253 --> 00:35:52,973
Speaker 2: long would it take do you think to turn the

590
00:35:53,013 --> 00:35:57,893
Speaker 2: country around? Although I've now got to sort of counter myself.

591
00:35:58,493 --> 00:36:01,373
Speaker 2: Today there was an article in the New Zealand Herald

592
00:36:01,893 --> 00:36:06,773
Speaker 2: with regard to gross in New Zealand, our GDP will

593
00:36:06,813 --> 00:36:11,613
Speaker 2: be according to the your and I haven't read it,

594
00:36:11,613 --> 00:36:14,413
Speaker 2: but I've been had it reported to me. According to

595
00:36:14,453 --> 00:36:20,453
Speaker 2: the author, we will be somewhere around double the GDP

596
00:36:20,573 --> 00:36:24,413
Speaker 2: of Australia over the next couple of years. Do you

597
00:36:24,453 --> 00:36:27,733
Speaker 2: see that as a likelihood or could you see that

598
00:36:27,773 --> 00:36:28,653
Speaker 2: as a likelihood?

599
00:36:31,093 --> 00:36:35,293
Speaker 3: It depends what reasons there are for the GDP growth.

600
00:36:35,373 --> 00:36:38,133
Speaker 3: If you continue bringing people in two percent of the

601
00:36:38,133 --> 00:36:41,373
Speaker 3: population one hundred thousand people each and every year, then

602
00:36:41,453 --> 00:36:45,293
Speaker 3: the GDP of your country will naturally grow. However, the

603
00:36:45,333 --> 00:36:49,093
Speaker 3: GDP per capita of the country unless these people are

604
00:36:49,133 --> 00:36:52,613
Speaker 3: all productive, is constantly shrinking. And the most important thing

605
00:36:52,653 --> 00:36:56,093
Speaker 3: is GDP per capita because that's what's eventually going to

606
00:36:56,213 --> 00:36:59,853
Speaker 3: pay for everybody's superannuation and things like that. So just

607
00:36:59,933 --> 00:37:04,213
Speaker 3: growing GDP is an extremely shortsighted and silly thing to do.

608
00:37:05,333 --> 00:37:08,813
Speaker 3: You know, we can make the country itself a lot richer,

609
00:37:08,853 --> 00:37:11,773
Speaker 3: but because there's so many more people, we're all individually

610
00:37:11,813 --> 00:37:13,933
Speaker 3: a lot poor. How does that work out?

611
00:37:14,613 --> 00:37:15,333
Speaker 2: Not very well.

612
00:37:17,933 --> 00:37:21,213
Speaker 3: It's a silly idea, yeah, And that's why we need

613
00:37:21,253 --> 00:37:24,733
Speaker 3: to actually look at the levers of what we can

614
00:37:24,853 --> 00:37:28,173
Speaker 3: do in order to increase the GDP per capita. Instead

615
00:37:28,173 --> 00:37:30,493
Speaker 3: of just bringing in people and hope that they are skilled,

616
00:37:30,773 --> 00:37:34,573
Speaker 3: we need to equip people. For example, we've got mechanization,

617
00:37:35,213 --> 00:37:38,173
Speaker 3: we've got robotics, and we've got AI and they're all

618
00:37:38,213 --> 00:37:40,813
Speaker 3: present and we know what their capabilities are and what

619
00:37:40,853 --> 00:37:43,653
Speaker 3: we could do with them, and we should start exploring

620
00:37:43,693 --> 00:37:48,413
Speaker 3: how they can be implemented more effectively. In New Zealand,

621
00:37:48,933 --> 00:37:53,093
Speaker 3: as an example, you could give tax breaks to people

622
00:37:53,133 --> 00:37:57,493
Speaker 3: who can demonstrably prove that they are upskilling their workforce.

623
00:37:57,853 --> 00:38:01,453
Speaker 3: In the tools that I mentioned, the nail gun versus

624
00:38:01,493 --> 00:38:05,493
Speaker 3: a hammer sort of idea. That's a very simple idea.

625
00:38:05,653 --> 00:38:09,253
Speaker 3: We can upskill people to better UNDERSTAN and AI, even

626
00:38:09,293 --> 00:38:12,613
Speaker 3: at just the base level of using it consistently to

627
00:38:12,693 --> 00:38:16,413
Speaker 3: help write reports and legal letters and so on and

628
00:38:16,493 --> 00:38:19,373
Speaker 3: so forth. And as such, and I do it myself,

629
00:38:19,453 --> 00:38:23,293
Speaker 3: you can increase your productivity virtually double it after just

630
00:38:23,293 --> 00:38:25,573
Speaker 3: a very short course of how to properly use some

631
00:38:25,613 --> 00:38:28,013
Speaker 3: of the tools that are available. These are all the

632
00:38:28,053 --> 00:38:30,853
Speaker 3: things that we can do without bringing in more people,

633
00:38:31,133 --> 00:38:32,573
Speaker 3: And these are things that we can do that can

634
00:38:32,613 --> 00:38:34,693
Speaker 3: actually probably bring a whole lot of people a lot

635
00:38:34,693 --> 00:38:38,173
Speaker 3: more job satisfaction and lower that unemployment rate of five

636
00:38:38,213 --> 00:38:42,333
Speaker 3: point four percent down towards three percent, and also put

637
00:38:42,373 --> 00:38:44,773
Speaker 3: people for a future where there is going to be

638
00:38:44,813 --> 00:38:47,213
Speaker 3: more mechanization, more robotics and more AI.

639
00:38:48,573 --> 00:38:50,533
Speaker 2: These there's a lot of questions I could throw in there,

640
00:38:50,533 --> 00:38:55,733
Speaker 2: but let me ask you your opinion of the Indian

641
00:38:56,293 --> 00:39:00,413
Speaker 2: Trade Agreement and whether that falls well which side of

642
00:39:00,453 --> 00:39:01,533
Speaker 2: the line does that forlong?

643
00:39:02,973 --> 00:39:06,653
Speaker 3: I think that it's a very poorly thought out trade agreement.

644
00:39:07,213 --> 00:39:10,973
Speaker 3: And just using immigration as an example, in the last

645
00:39:11,013 --> 00:39:13,213
Speaker 3: trunch of people who came into New Zealand, it was

646
00:39:13,253 --> 00:39:17,533
Speaker 3: mainly Chinese, Indian and Filipinos. Let's just assume that it's

647
00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:20,453
Speaker 3: one third one third, so one hundred and twenty thousand people.

648
00:39:20,453 --> 00:39:24,413
Speaker 3: That means forty thousand of them were Indian. Just for

649
00:39:24,413 --> 00:39:29,933
Speaker 3: a hypothetical stake, If you increase that number by another

650
00:39:30,013 --> 00:39:33,293
Speaker 3: five thousand, which is what in the article by Audrey

651
00:39:33,293 --> 00:39:35,573
Speaker 3: Young New Zealand Herald from two or three days ago,

652
00:39:35,613 --> 00:39:38,293
Speaker 3: when she'd said it's one thousand, six hundred and sixty

653
00:39:38,293 --> 00:39:42,893
Speaker 3: seven specialist, but it's anticipated the five thousand people, then

654
00:39:42,893 --> 00:39:46,573
Speaker 3: that's one eighth increase, which is twelve point five percent increase.

655
00:39:46,893 --> 00:39:49,533
Speaker 3: Now that's actually a fairly massive increase in the number

656
00:39:49,533 --> 00:39:51,973
Speaker 3: of people to bring into New Zealand, and where are

657
00:39:52,013 --> 00:39:54,773
Speaker 3: they going to live? And also we're making the assumption

658
00:39:54,893 --> 00:39:57,853
Speaker 3: that their skills will actually match the jobs, and we're

659
00:39:57,853 --> 00:40:00,013
Speaker 3: bringing them in rather than training up people who are

660
00:40:00,013 --> 00:40:02,613
Speaker 3: already in New Zealand, and we're bringing them in and

661
00:40:02,653 --> 00:40:07,053
Speaker 3: there's going to be chain migration following them. So, you know,

662
00:40:07,413 --> 00:40:11,173
Speaker 3: it seems to me a very short sighted strategy that

663
00:40:11,573 --> 00:40:14,493
Speaker 3: once again, all those other stats they gave at the

664
00:40:14,533 --> 00:40:16,453
Speaker 3: beginning of this interview of you know, bringing in one

665
00:40:16,533 --> 00:40:19,773
Speaker 3: hundred thousand people in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two,

666
00:40:19,853 --> 00:40:23,653
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. It didn't fix the problem of skill shortage.

667
00:40:23,653 --> 00:40:25,813
Speaker 3: And I suspect that a lot of people come into

668
00:40:25,813 --> 00:40:28,133
Speaker 3: New Zealand and then use it as a gateway to

669
00:40:28,213 --> 00:40:29,773
Speaker 3: leaving for Australia.

670
00:40:31,133 --> 00:40:33,173
Speaker 2: And we've lost a lot of people to Australia in

671
00:40:33,173 --> 00:40:36,733
Speaker 2: the last couple of years. So that's one reason. I

672
00:40:36,733 --> 00:40:39,213
Speaker 2: suppose they feel that they need to bring more in.

673
00:40:40,373 --> 00:40:43,133
Speaker 3: It gets worse than that, I'm sorry, Laden what happens

674
00:40:43,213 --> 00:40:45,213
Speaker 3: that a lot of people will go over to Australia

675
00:40:45,293 --> 00:40:47,893
Speaker 3: for the work, but then they'll leave their kids and

676
00:40:47,933 --> 00:40:50,253
Speaker 3: their parents still have asked the kids here in New Zealand,

677
00:40:51,853 --> 00:40:56,133
Speaker 3: you know, because the parents, as an example, don't qualify

678
00:40:56,373 --> 00:40:59,453
Speaker 3: for superannuation for fifteen years and that may be sort

679
00:40:59,493 --> 00:41:01,533
Speaker 3: of too late, but in Australia they may not qualify

680
00:41:01,653 --> 00:41:03,973
Speaker 3: at all because they spent time here in New Zealand.

681
00:41:04,333 --> 00:41:07,853
Speaker 3: And as such, we're essentially becoming an old person's home.

682
00:41:08,613 --> 00:41:10,173
Speaker 2: Oh got to be good for something.

683
00:41:11,933 --> 00:41:14,413
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good for selling hearing aids.

684
00:41:14,493 --> 00:41:20,493
Speaker 2: I was in conversation with somebody about work permits. They

685
00:41:20,493 --> 00:41:24,053
Speaker 2: were promoting the idea for the sake of our discussion.

686
00:41:24,053 --> 00:41:27,573
Speaker 2: They were promoting the idea that we follow on with

687
00:41:28,773 --> 00:41:33,653
Speaker 2: other countries that allow people in for a work permit

688
00:41:33,813 --> 00:41:36,773
Speaker 2: for a limited period of time, and then when that

689
00:41:36,893 --> 00:41:40,453
Speaker 2: time is up, they leave, no two ways about it,

690
00:41:40,653 --> 00:41:45,613
Speaker 2: they're gone. My response was that they were talking mostly

691
00:41:45,693 --> 00:41:51,493
Speaker 2: about Asian countries or the Middle East, where it's not

692
00:41:51,693 --> 00:41:54,173
Speaker 2: far from work to home. It's too far to drive

693
00:41:54,253 --> 00:41:57,133
Speaker 2: every day or get a bust or whatever, but you

694
00:41:57,173 --> 00:41:59,693
Speaker 2: can hop on a plane and go home for a

695
00:41:59,693 --> 00:42:04,173
Speaker 2: brief holiday fairly quickly and fairly cheaply. It's the distance

696
00:42:04,253 --> 00:42:07,053
Speaker 2: is what I'm toying with here. Whereas if you get

697
00:42:07,093 --> 00:42:10,693
Speaker 2: people down here and they're locked in for four years,

698
00:42:10,733 --> 00:42:12,893
Speaker 2: say they're not going to be able to make that

699
00:42:13,453 --> 00:42:19,933
Speaker 2: home visit because it's outside their outside their scope, and

700
00:42:19,973 --> 00:42:21,733
Speaker 2: therefore you're not going to get the good people to

701
00:42:21,773 --> 00:42:25,093
Speaker 2: come down. Does that fall into any sort of form

702
00:42:25,173 --> 00:42:25,413
Speaker 2: for you.

703
00:42:26,653 --> 00:42:28,853
Speaker 3: I'm not sure whether or not that means that you

704
00:42:28,893 --> 00:42:31,533
Speaker 3: won't get the good people coming down. You'll certainly get

705
00:42:31,533 --> 00:42:35,773
Speaker 3: the dedicated people coming down. But this system has worked

706
00:42:35,773 --> 00:42:38,133
Speaker 3: for hundreds of years. Hundreds of years there have been

707
00:42:38,373 --> 00:42:41,533
Speaker 3: people who traveled from one country to another just for

708
00:42:41,653 --> 00:42:44,933
Speaker 3: work and then when the time was up, they went home.

709
00:42:46,093 --> 00:42:48,613
Speaker 3: If you look at a country like Qatar, where ninety

710
00:42:48,653 --> 00:42:51,453
Speaker 3: seven percent of the population is on such a contract,

711
00:42:51,773 --> 00:42:54,373
Speaker 3: and yet they have no problem whatsoever of bringing in

712
00:42:54,413 --> 00:42:59,013
Speaker 3: people from the Philippines, Pakistan, India and sign and so forth.

713
00:42:59,413 --> 00:43:05,333
Speaker 3: So you know it works. The Singaporeans are no falls.

714
00:43:05,413 --> 00:43:09,213
Speaker 3: They bring in people from all over the world and

715
00:43:09,413 --> 00:43:11,773
Speaker 3: when your contract is finished, then it's time to go.

716
00:43:12,413 --> 00:43:17,293
Speaker 2: Yeah, but each of those countries has connection closer connection

717
00:43:18,173 --> 00:43:20,613
Speaker 2: with the rest of the world or the part of

718
00:43:20,653 --> 00:43:22,893
Speaker 2: the world where these people come from. It's not like

719
00:43:23,053 --> 00:43:24,973
Speaker 2: New Zealand, which is way down here and you know

720
00:43:25,013 --> 00:43:27,253
Speaker 2: what the affairs are like these days.

721
00:43:29,413 --> 00:43:33,693
Speaker 3: Yes, I agree, but the assumption that people won't come

722
00:43:34,053 --> 00:43:37,293
Speaker 3: is unfounded because people have come and do come and

723
00:43:37,333 --> 00:43:39,653
Speaker 3: then they go back. There's a lot of Americans who

724
00:43:39,733 --> 00:43:42,333
Speaker 3: come to live and work in New Zealand and then

725
00:43:42,533 --> 00:43:45,853
Speaker 3: when their contractors up, then they go back home. Yeah.

726
00:43:45,933 --> 00:43:50,373
Speaker 2: I know one in particular who works here and is

727
00:43:50,413 --> 00:43:53,333
Speaker 2: going back to the States on a regular basis, just

728
00:43:53,373 --> 00:43:55,933
Speaker 2: for a few days, visit the family and what have you,

729
00:43:56,573 --> 00:43:59,013
Speaker 2: because they can afford. It's really what I'm pointing out.

730
00:44:00,413 --> 00:44:02,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, but people have the choice to do it. And

731
00:44:02,933 --> 00:44:07,093
Speaker 3: it's not as if there is any shortage of people

732
00:44:07,093 --> 00:44:09,613
Speaker 3: who want to come to New Zealand and simply to

733
00:44:09,693 --> 00:44:11,533
Speaker 3: work here and then are willing to go back home.

734
00:44:11,973 --> 00:44:14,733
Speaker 3: And the reason I say that is because I've lived

735
00:44:14,733 --> 00:44:17,973
Speaker 3: in other countries overseas. In fact, I myself went to

736
00:44:18,093 --> 00:44:21,253
Speaker 3: Papua New Guinea to work there setting up medical clinics.

737
00:44:21,333 --> 00:44:23,933
Speaker 3: When the contract finishes, then bang you have to come home.

738
00:44:25,213 --> 00:44:27,173
Speaker 3: You know that going in, and you know that going up.

739
00:44:28,053 --> 00:44:31,653
Speaker 2: I just think the world's changed a bit. But I

740
00:44:31,813 --> 00:44:36,693
Speaker 2: bow to you to your credibility. You mentioned AI a

741
00:44:36,733 --> 00:44:39,493
Speaker 2: couple of times. Yeah, I'm going to make a statement

742
00:44:39,533 --> 00:44:41,413
Speaker 2: to you or want your reaction. I think it's evil.

743
00:44:44,333 --> 00:44:47,693
Speaker 3: I think that is a tool for st Yeah. Well,

744
00:44:47,733 --> 00:44:49,933
Speaker 3: I think it's a tool like any other tool that

745
00:44:50,053 --> 00:44:54,173
Speaker 3: can be like a gun, or a or a golf club.

746
00:44:55,053 --> 00:44:58,493
Speaker 3: It can be used for the correct purposes or the

747
00:44:58,533 --> 00:45:02,493
Speaker 3: incorrect purposes. However, the Coddese do have is that I

748
00:45:02,573 --> 00:45:06,893
Speaker 3: think that AI have been released far too early. I

749
00:45:06,933 --> 00:45:10,253
Speaker 3: think in many cases it's unfit for what it's used for.

750
00:45:11,133 --> 00:45:16,053
Speaker 3: And I have very serious privacy considerations regarding AI. And

751
00:45:16,093 --> 00:45:19,293
Speaker 3: I know for an absolute fact that they do track.

752
00:45:19,093 --> 00:45:23,053
Speaker 2: You, Well, you could turn that into what I just said,

753
00:45:23,893 --> 00:45:27,053
Speaker 2: it's evil or it has the capacity to be utilized

754
00:45:27,053 --> 00:45:29,533
Speaker 2: for evil, and if it has the capacity, it will

755
00:45:29,573 --> 00:45:30,333
Speaker 2: be used for evil.

756
00:45:31,653 --> 00:45:33,733
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm saying it just like any other tool.

757
00:45:33,973 --> 00:45:38,133
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean to say that we can't put boundaries

758
00:45:38,173 --> 00:45:41,333
Speaker 3: and safeguards on it or built into it. And I

759
00:45:41,333 --> 00:45:43,893
Speaker 3: think built into it is the easiest way to do

760
00:45:43,973 --> 00:45:47,093
Speaker 3: it and demand the code actually be able to be

761
00:45:47,293 --> 00:45:50,453
Speaker 3: read and recognized. That's the only safeguard I can think of.

762
00:45:52,013 --> 00:45:56,213
Speaker 2: Does building safeguards into a piece of legislation actually fulfill

763
00:45:56,253 --> 00:45:57,133
Speaker 2: its task.

764
00:45:57,973 --> 00:46:03,133
Speaker 3: Like most legislation, unless it is used as described and

765
00:46:03,253 --> 00:46:07,213
Speaker 3: it's enforced, then I think it will be ignored. We've

766
00:46:07,253 --> 00:46:10,093
Speaker 3: got to remember that some of the best programmers in

767
00:46:10,133 --> 00:46:12,813
Speaker 3: the world. In fact, the country with the largest number

768
00:46:12,853 --> 00:46:17,533
Speaker 3: of programmersfortunately is not China, it's in there. It's not

769
00:46:17,573 --> 00:46:21,893
Speaker 3: the United States, it's Russia. And I don't think that

770
00:46:21,933 --> 00:46:24,253
Speaker 3: they're necessarily going to follow the rules that we set

771
00:46:24,293 --> 00:46:24,853
Speaker 3: down for them.

772
00:46:25,333 --> 00:46:29,573
Speaker 2: No, I think there's a sound evidence for that. Why

773
00:46:29,573 --> 00:46:32,213
Speaker 2: don't you give us a description of Well, tell us

774
00:46:32,213 --> 00:46:34,413
Speaker 2: what you would do if you were in a position

775
00:46:34,573 --> 00:46:38,093
Speaker 2: to do it because you were the prime minister, with

776
00:46:38,133 --> 00:46:40,973
Speaker 2: your view of things, how would you be tackling it

777
00:46:41,013 --> 00:46:41,653
Speaker 2: from here on?

778
00:46:43,333 --> 00:46:45,133
Speaker 3: The very first thing I would do if as Prime

779
00:46:45,133 --> 00:46:50,093
Speaker 3: minister is I would lobby for there to be four

780
00:46:50,173 --> 00:46:53,573
Speaker 3: year terms for governments rather than three year terms. And

781
00:46:53,653 --> 00:46:55,813
Speaker 3: as soon as you do that, then the questions will

782
00:46:55,813 --> 00:46:58,773
Speaker 3: come up as to how much can governments achieve during

783
00:46:58,813 --> 00:47:01,853
Speaker 3: their terms? Why can they only achieve so much? What

784
00:47:01,973 --> 00:47:05,973
Speaker 3: has changed between the three term situation and the four

785
00:47:06,293 --> 00:47:09,253
Speaker 3: year suggestion, And all of the things will provide a

786
00:47:09,253 --> 00:47:12,453
Speaker 3: platform on which some of the very necessary problems and

787
00:47:12,493 --> 00:47:16,213
Speaker 3: issues can be discussed. For example, if you're in government

788
00:47:16,213 --> 00:47:20,093
Speaker 3: for four years and you're having problems with Sir Humphrey

789
00:47:20,253 --> 00:47:23,973
Speaker 3: and our civil service, you've actually got a four year

790
00:47:24,053 --> 00:47:26,893
Speaker 3: period over which try and resolve the problem, rather than

791
00:47:26,893 --> 00:47:29,413
Speaker 3: you just being a transitory government that comes and goes

792
00:47:29,453 --> 00:47:31,693
Speaker 3: and they can just carry on doing what they want.

793
00:47:33,053 --> 00:47:37,053
Speaker 3: The other thing is that you are more likely as

794
00:47:37,093 --> 00:47:40,613
Speaker 3: the government to overlap on the CEOs of these various

795
00:47:40,813 --> 00:47:44,093
Speaker 3: government departments. I think there's forty eight of them, and

796
00:47:44,253 --> 00:47:47,053
Speaker 3: if they are not up to scratch in a merit

797
00:47:47,133 --> 00:47:50,053
Speaker 3: sort of way, then you can simply not renew their contracts,

798
00:47:50,213 --> 00:47:53,453
Speaker 3: you can try and get rid of them, because a

799
00:47:53,453 --> 00:47:57,773
Speaker 3: lot of the problems that we have in government and

800
00:47:57,813 --> 00:48:01,213
Speaker 3: in the civil service in particular, stem from the head

801
00:48:01,373 --> 00:48:05,493
Speaker 3: of these various organizations. So if you just made that

802
00:48:05,533 --> 00:48:08,333
Speaker 3: one suggestion, then you can open the doors to discussions

803
00:48:08,413 --> 00:48:11,133
Speaker 3: of all the other products and topics.

804
00:48:11,813 --> 00:48:12,453
Speaker 2: Anything else.

805
00:48:14,693 --> 00:48:18,093
Speaker 3: Well, I would focus on energy policy if I had

806
00:48:18,133 --> 00:48:22,533
Speaker 3: to choose a particular portfolio. I really think that New

807
00:48:22,613 --> 00:48:25,613
Speaker 3: Zealand we can't be more productive if we don't have

808
00:48:25,693 --> 00:48:28,213
Speaker 3: cheaper energy. And we can see an example of this

809
00:48:28,293 --> 00:48:30,733
Speaker 3: in the UK, where the cost of energy is approximately

810
00:48:31,173 --> 00:48:34,013
Speaker 3: three times the cost of energy in the US. So

811
00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:37,653
Speaker 3: how can UK industry or German industry, because they're under

812
00:48:37,693 --> 00:48:41,053
Speaker 3: the same sort of situation, how can they be competitive

813
00:48:41,133 --> 00:48:44,973
Speaker 3: with other countries which have much lower energy costs and

814
00:48:45,093 --> 00:48:49,373
Speaker 3: basically the same types of automation. In addition to that,

815
00:48:50,253 --> 00:48:53,173
Speaker 3: I have cold every year than die of heat strokes

816
00:48:53,173 --> 00:48:56,213
Speaker 3: and things like that, and the one linting factor on

817
00:48:56,733 --> 00:48:59,293
Speaker 3: fighting cold, and they call it energy poverty and we're

818
00:48:59,293 --> 00:49:04,893
Speaker 3: seeing it in Europe right now is basically cold. You've

819
00:49:04,933 --> 00:49:06,773
Speaker 3: already had a few people, I think it was last week,

820
00:49:07,053 --> 00:49:10,133
Speaker 3: fifteen people died in New York, just in cold.

821
00:49:10,693 --> 00:49:12,093
Speaker 2: There's going to be a lot more of them doing

822
00:49:12,133 --> 00:49:16,573
Speaker 2: the same under the presence newly elected administration of New York.

823
00:49:18,973 --> 00:49:23,853
Speaker 2: So on that note, and I've saved this for last yep.

824
00:49:24,373 --> 00:49:28,813
Speaker 2: Net zero, good, bad, or stupid.

825
00:49:31,373 --> 00:49:36,653
Speaker 3: Netzero is an excuse for a massive wealth transfer from

826
00:49:36,693 --> 00:49:40,053
Speaker 3: the developed countries to the less developed countries. It doesn't

827
00:49:40,093 --> 00:49:43,373
Speaker 3: achieve a thing, and it's cheated on. For example, when

828
00:49:43,413 --> 00:49:45,573
Speaker 3: you have a market where you can sell carbon credits,

829
00:49:45,653 --> 00:49:48,413
Speaker 3: you have people who double sell sol twice, you have

830
00:49:48,493 --> 00:49:51,973
Speaker 3: companies that do what's called green washing, and you have

831
00:49:52,173 --> 00:49:54,453
Speaker 3: a whole lot of perfectly, I was going to say,

832
00:49:55,253 --> 00:49:58,093
Speaker 3: behind the whole thing, it's not worth its time and effort,

833
00:49:58,293 --> 00:50:00,773
Speaker 3: And you don't want to ruin your economy as they

834
00:50:00,813 --> 00:50:03,373
Speaker 3: have done in the UK for the sake of fighting

835
00:50:03,413 --> 00:50:06,133
Speaker 3: something where you won't make any difference. And it's the

836
00:50:06,173 --> 00:50:11,053
Speaker 3: economy that you need sustain to best in new wind farms,

837
00:50:11,053 --> 00:50:13,693
Speaker 3: solar farms, research, all that sort of stuff. You know,

838
00:50:13,773 --> 00:50:16,813
Speaker 3: it's sort of like chopping off your league to win

839
00:50:16,853 --> 00:50:17,293
Speaker 3: the race.

840
00:50:19,653 --> 00:50:21,453
Speaker 2: I see, well, if you were in a one legged race,

841
00:50:21,453 --> 00:50:22,333
Speaker 2: I suppose it might work.

842
00:50:23,213 --> 00:50:24,893
Speaker 3: Well, some countries aren't now aren't.

843
00:50:24,653 --> 00:50:31,853
Speaker 2: They indeed, Well, my attitude is that I agree with you, actually,

844
00:50:32,373 --> 00:50:35,373
Speaker 2: But as long as you've got people in positions of

845
00:50:35,413 --> 00:50:39,653
Speaker 2: authority and we do, who are pursuing it and won't

846
00:50:39,693 --> 00:50:45,853
Speaker 2: listen to any alternative, realistic argument, then you're going to

847
00:50:45,853 --> 00:50:49,253
Speaker 2: stay in trouble in my opinion, and that bothers me

848
00:50:49,333 --> 00:50:51,453
Speaker 2: a great deal, because I think there are people in

849
00:50:51,533 --> 00:50:53,173
Speaker 2: positions who are not very bright.

850
00:50:54,973 --> 00:50:57,253
Speaker 3: The issue is not always that they're not very bright,

851
00:50:57,613 --> 00:51:00,213
Speaker 3: but sometimes you use some very intelligent people who are

852
00:51:00,293 --> 00:51:04,373
Speaker 3: driven by ideology. One example of that is I was

853
00:51:04,413 --> 00:51:07,533
Speaker 3: sitting one day in a plane to side was it

854
00:51:07,853 --> 00:51:12,413
Speaker 3: Jillian Julian Jenner? Very very nice lady, very smart, and

855
00:51:12,453 --> 00:51:15,253
Speaker 3: everything else like that, but all we discussed was bicycles.

856
00:51:16,773 --> 00:51:19,853
Speaker 3: And another example was a guy who I like a lot,

857
00:51:19,973 --> 00:51:23,693
Speaker 3: Simon Brown here in pack Oranger. Very very nice guy,

858
00:51:24,133 --> 00:51:27,693
Speaker 3: very smart. He's had some senior portfolios, but at the

859
00:51:27,773 --> 00:51:29,973
Speaker 3: end of the day, politics is where he spent all

860
00:51:30,013 --> 00:51:33,413
Speaker 3: his life. And so, you know, people with those sort

861
00:51:33,413 --> 00:51:38,053
Speaker 3: of experiences in life tend to reflect those experiences in

862
00:51:38,093 --> 00:51:41,293
Speaker 3: life when it comes to the types of decisions that

863
00:51:41,333 --> 00:51:42,653
Speaker 3: they make and the way they think.

864
00:51:43,253 --> 00:51:47,653
Speaker 2: I wonder if you think that there is enough politicians

865
00:51:47,693 --> 00:51:51,253
Speaker 2: in Parliament at the moment who are good enough to

866
00:51:51,333 --> 00:51:52,733
Speaker 2: make this country great.

867
00:51:55,413 --> 00:51:57,013
Speaker 3: I haven't seen any evidence of that.

868
00:51:58,333 --> 00:52:00,973
Speaker 2: So on that note, Mike, it's been a pleasure again,

869
00:52:01,493 --> 00:52:03,733
Speaker 2: and I look forward to the next time we talk

870
00:52:03,813 --> 00:52:06,293
Speaker 2: because it will be based on something interesting.

871
00:52:07,533 --> 00:52:10,253
Speaker 3: You're welcome and I hope to speak to you again.

872
00:52:10,773 --> 00:52:11,053
Speaker 3: She is.

873
00:52:21,653 --> 00:52:23,773
Speaker 2: I went to the mail room for podcast number three

874
00:52:23,813 --> 00:52:27,573
Speaker 2: hundred and sixteen and missus producer, how are you this week?

875
00:52:27,613 --> 00:52:27,813
Speaker 3: Late?

876
00:52:27,813 --> 00:52:28,853
Speaker 4: And I'm fabulous?

877
00:52:28,853 --> 00:52:30,213
Speaker 3: How are you just.

878
00:52:30,493 --> 00:52:35,053
Speaker 2: Put that on loop? She's always she's always fabulous. Ye's good, Yes,

879
00:52:35,093 --> 00:52:35,933
Speaker 2: well it's not bad.

880
00:52:36,733 --> 00:52:40,613
Speaker 5: And I see you've I've got a swag of emails here.

881
00:52:40,653 --> 00:52:42,493
Speaker 5: You did find your missing emails?

882
00:52:42,613 --> 00:52:45,213
Speaker 2: I did find a button I found I found the

883
00:52:45,333 --> 00:52:48,013
Speaker 2: mid afternoon of last week, after we'd done the mail

884
00:52:48,053 --> 00:52:50,733
Speaker 2: room in the morning, and they sort of appeared out

885
00:52:50,733 --> 00:52:51,293
Speaker 2: of nowhere.

886
00:52:52,333 --> 00:52:52,893
Speaker 3: I find it.

887
00:52:53,013 --> 00:52:55,493
Speaker 5: I find it funny to think that we would sit

888
00:52:55,613 --> 00:53:01,173
Speaker 5: in two studios in our radio life, with so much

889
00:53:01,333 --> 00:53:06,653
Speaker 5: tech that we controlled separately, and now we're finding it

890
00:53:06,693 --> 00:53:09,573
Speaker 5: difficult to press the right button to get our emails.

891
00:53:09,813 --> 00:53:14,173
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's well, this is this was the missing

892
00:53:14,253 --> 00:53:17,573
Speaker 2: emails was the result of the the changes that they've

893
00:53:17,613 --> 00:53:18,453
Speaker 2: made to the system.

894
00:53:18,693 --> 00:53:20,773
Speaker 5: Now we've got to get on because I've got about

895
00:53:20,773 --> 00:53:23,253
Speaker 5: twenty here, So let me just first start with a

896
00:53:23,293 --> 00:53:28,213
Speaker 5: few time that you won't read, but I will. Gary Layton,

897
00:53:28,293 --> 00:53:33,173
Speaker 5: congratulations on the honor and happy New Year. Judy, Congratulations Layton,

898
00:53:33,213 --> 00:53:38,453
Speaker 5: A special radio man. Jude Layton, congratulations on your world

899
00:53:38,493 --> 00:53:40,853
Speaker 5: deserved honor of an m NS.

900
00:53:41,133 --> 00:53:42,853
Speaker 4: Always get that wrong, m n z M.

901
00:53:43,173 --> 00:53:45,293
Speaker 5: I've listened to your podcast for a few years and

902
00:53:45,333 --> 00:53:49,373
Speaker 5: everyone has taught me so much. Congratulations on your going

903
00:53:49,493 --> 00:53:53,973
Speaker 5: from Margaret well deserved. We were delighted to hear and

904
00:53:54,013 --> 00:53:56,293
Speaker 5: then read that you had been the recipient of award

905
00:53:56,493 --> 00:53:59,493
Speaker 5: in the New Year's Honors. We have always enjoyed your

906
00:53:59,493 --> 00:54:02,613
Speaker 5: program on the radio, and since your retirement of the retirement,

907
00:54:02,853 --> 00:54:08,813
Speaker 5: the weekly podcasts have been eagerly awaited. From Pamela, I

908
00:54:08,893 --> 00:54:12,213
Speaker 5: have only just caught I'll finished with this. There loads more,

909
00:54:12,653 --> 00:54:15,453
Speaker 5: but this is from someone special who we know, Deirdre.

910
00:54:15,613 --> 00:54:17,973
Speaker 5: It's so lovely to hear from you, Deirdre. I hope

911
00:54:17,973 --> 00:54:20,613
Speaker 5: you're well. I have only just caught up with your

912
00:54:20,653 --> 00:54:24,973
Speaker 5: splendid news. Congratulations a well deserved honor. You have given

913
00:54:25,053 --> 00:54:29,693
Speaker 5: so much to so many enlightenment, entertainment and knowledge through

914
00:54:29,733 --> 00:54:33,213
Speaker 5: the years, that newstalks'd be in your podcasts. I imagine

915
00:54:33,253 --> 00:54:36,253
Speaker 5: Carolyn is so proud of you. Yes I am, including

916
00:54:36,293 --> 00:54:40,293
Speaker 5: your sons. Please give my very kind regards to Christian

917
00:54:40,773 --> 00:54:42,933
Speaker 5: And she says, I have fond memories of the Gallipoli

918
00:54:43,013 --> 00:54:46,373
Speaker 5: tour on the Plong cruise and Deirdre so have we

919
00:54:46,693 --> 00:54:47,453
Speaker 5: so much.

920
00:54:47,293 --> 00:54:50,493
Speaker 2: Love, absolutely and can you believe that that was coming

921
00:54:50,533 --> 00:54:54,573
Speaker 2: up eleven years ago? Noop, unbelievable, You can't believe it.

922
00:54:54,573 --> 00:54:59,253
Speaker 2: If it's unbelievable, all all, and thank you. Now let

923
00:54:59,293 --> 00:55:01,333
Speaker 2: me just say that we've got a ton of those,

924
00:55:02,093 --> 00:55:07,653
Speaker 2: and it's not an ego trip. It's more recognizing and

925
00:55:07,733 --> 00:55:12,853
Speaker 2: appreciate what you're saying and sharing with everybody.

926
00:55:13,413 --> 00:55:15,373
Speaker 5: Well, we were saying this morning, weren't we, you know,

927
00:55:15,613 --> 00:55:18,053
Speaker 5: even on the radio. We were just two people who

928
00:55:18,093 --> 00:55:21,133
Speaker 5: went to work in two little rooms and then went

929
00:55:21,173 --> 00:55:26,093
Speaker 5: home again afterwards. And it's still, you know, still a

930
00:55:26,093 --> 00:55:28,213
Speaker 5: bit amazing to think that actually people.

931
00:55:28,373 --> 00:55:30,973
Speaker 2: Oh and this being the ATA too, don't forget that.

932
00:55:31,653 --> 00:55:33,293
Speaker 2: And you had a little room maybe, but I had

933
00:55:33,333 --> 00:55:37,373
Speaker 2: a big studio. This is from Judy read your intro

934
00:55:37,573 --> 00:55:43,813
Speaker 2: this week dated eleven December, our local GP surgery in

935
00:55:43,973 --> 00:55:47,893
Speaker 2: pong Array are giving all incoming patients a permission slip

936
00:55:48,173 --> 00:55:51,013
Speaker 2: to allow the surgery to use AI to write up

937
00:55:51,093 --> 00:55:54,973
Speaker 2: all their medical file notes and save the GP time.

938
00:55:55,693 --> 00:55:59,173
Speaker 2: But that's all, she says. My question is, are they

939
00:55:59,213 --> 00:56:02,093
Speaker 2: reducing their fees because they are now able to get

940
00:56:02,093 --> 00:56:04,613
Speaker 2: more patients in because they're using AI to write up

941
00:56:04,653 --> 00:56:09,653
Speaker 2: the reports. I think it's a good question from H. Paul.

942
00:56:10,453 --> 00:56:14,253
Speaker 2: You're probably across this already, but please share this on

943
00:56:14,293 --> 00:56:19,013
Speaker 2: your excellent platform. From the Brownstone Institute, the FDA memo

944
00:56:19,213 --> 00:56:24,693
Speaker 2: that shakes the world quote, the Office of Biostatistics and

945
00:56:24,853 --> 00:56:30,053
Speaker 2: Farmer Covigilance Career staff have found that at least ten

946
00:56:30,173 --> 00:56:34,613
Speaker 2: children have died after and because of receiving COVID nineteen vaccination.

947
00:56:35,173 --> 00:56:40,573
Speaker 2: These deaths are related to vaccination quote unquote. These children,

948
00:56:40,693 --> 00:56:44,133
Speaker 2: like all young people, were never at risk from COVID

949
00:56:44,813 --> 00:56:48,453
Speaker 2: rip Rory Nane and many others. The vax was not

950
00:56:48,613 --> 00:56:53,533
Speaker 2: safe nor effective. Hand in your knighthood, Dame doctor Jacinda.

951
00:56:55,533 --> 00:56:58,253
Speaker 5: Late and John says, I've just listened to podcasts three

952
00:56:58,733 --> 00:57:02,493
Speaker 5: twelve with John Orcock. I think it's the most interesting

953
00:57:02,613 --> 00:57:05,813
Speaker 5: and disturbing of your podcasts which I have listened to.

954
00:57:06,413 --> 00:57:10,693
Speaker 5: Your questioning was excellent and his explanations were very concise

955
00:57:10,813 --> 00:57:15,493
Speaker 5: and easy to understand. He's an excellent communicator. Further into

956
00:57:15,533 --> 00:57:17,973
Speaker 5: the interview I listened, the more the Tower of Babel

957
00:57:18,453 --> 00:57:21,733
Speaker 5: came to mind. There will be a danieument, although I

958
00:57:21,733 --> 00:57:24,293
Speaker 5: wouldn't like to try and predict what that might be.

959
00:57:25,253 --> 00:57:28,293
Speaker 5: Regarding John's reference to philosophy and the passing on of

960
00:57:28,333 --> 00:57:31,693
Speaker 5: the teachings of the philosophers. I went to Catholic schools

961
00:57:31,693 --> 00:57:35,213
Speaker 5: in the fifties and sixties, and whilst we learned about

962
00:57:35,733 --> 00:57:40,533
Speaker 5: individual philosophers such as Socrates and Aristotle, we didn't study

963
00:57:40,613 --> 00:57:44,133
Speaker 5: their philosophy in detail. I believe this is still true

964
00:57:44,173 --> 00:57:47,373
Speaker 5: today unless you have a liberal education at institutions such

965
00:57:47,373 --> 00:57:50,213
Speaker 5: as Campian College in Sydney and the New University of

966
00:57:50,253 --> 00:57:55,093
Speaker 5: Notre Dame and possibly the Australian Catholic University. Once you

967
00:57:55,213 --> 00:57:59,893
Speaker 5: may have chosen to study philosophy at secular universities. I imagine

968
00:57:59,813 --> 00:58:03,973
Speaker 5: today you can probably still study that, but I imagine,

969
00:58:04,013 --> 00:58:06,373
Speaker 5: given the state of the modern university, there would be

970
00:58:06,413 --> 00:58:10,733
Speaker 5: an emphasis on those philosophers favored by left wing academics

971
00:58:11,013 --> 00:58:12,173
Speaker 5: such as Marks.

972
00:58:13,093 --> 00:58:17,493
Speaker 2: I think very correct now from Claire, I'm a real

973
00:58:17,533 --> 00:58:19,853
Speaker 2: Shane Jones fan, so well done getting him back on

974
00:58:20,213 --> 00:58:24,253
Speaker 2: to launch. Twenty twenty six, My brother Matt sent his

975
00:58:24,293 --> 00:58:28,653
Speaker 2: siblings each a US fifty cent coin for Christmas. When

976
00:58:28,693 --> 00:58:32,093
Speaker 2: he sent them, they were worth US seventy dollars an ounce,

977
00:58:33,093 --> 00:58:36,973
Speaker 2: and a fifty cent coin was worth twenty five US dollars.

978
00:58:37,293 --> 00:58:41,693
Speaker 2: Today silver is worth eighty three ninety three announce pre

979
00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:45,133
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five US dimes, quarters and other fifty cent

980
00:58:45,173 --> 00:58:49,293
Speaker 2: coins are ninety percent silver. It was a memorable and

981
00:58:49,373 --> 00:58:51,893
Speaker 2: generous gift. I look forward to another year of your

982
00:58:52,053 --> 00:58:53,373
Speaker 2: interviews clear appreciated.

983
00:58:53,573 --> 00:58:57,053
Speaker 5: Thank you, and Layton Jin says, well, you're already on

984
00:58:57,093 --> 00:59:00,013
Speaker 5: your eighth year of your podcast. This means that I

985
00:59:00,093 --> 00:59:03,533
Speaker 5: must have been following following you for at least fifteen years,

986
00:59:03,573 --> 00:59:06,453
Speaker 5: maybe more. I've lost count Through the years I've listened

987
00:59:06,493 --> 00:59:10,093
Speaker 5: to your broadcasts, drank Layton's, and read beyond the microphone.

988
00:59:10,133 --> 00:59:12,573
Speaker 5: I feel like I've literally been sharing life together with

989
00:59:12,653 --> 00:59:14,373
Speaker 5: you both and loving every minute.

990
00:59:14,613 --> 00:59:15,053
Speaker 3: Thanks.

991
00:59:15,813 --> 00:59:18,253
Speaker 5: I've grown to love Shane Jones as a politician over

992
00:59:18,293 --> 00:59:20,613
Speaker 5: the years. He is one of the very few intelligent

993
00:59:20,693 --> 00:59:24,573
Speaker 5: orators left in New Zealand politics. His cut and thrust

994
00:59:24,653 --> 00:59:28,573
Speaker 5: speeches in Parliament are often incisive in truth and spectacular

995
00:59:28,653 --> 00:59:33,293
Speaker 5: in theatrics. I vehemently agree with his analysis that the

996
00:59:33,373 --> 00:59:36,613
Speaker 5: core problem in our society can be attributed to, in

997
00:59:36,693 --> 00:59:42,293
Speaker 5: his words, men abandoning responsibilities and easy access to welfare.

998
00:59:42,933 --> 00:59:46,373
Speaker 5: The reality is that these twin issues of family breakdown

999
00:59:46,533 --> 00:59:51,613
Speaker 5: and intergenerational welfare dependency are interrelated. And Jin goes on,

1000
00:59:51,693 --> 00:59:54,893
Speaker 5: thank you just a little bit long for today, but

1001
00:59:54,973 --> 00:59:56,973
Speaker 5: he says, I breathe a cygh of relief now that

1002
00:59:57,013 --> 00:59:58,173
Speaker 5: your podcast is back.

1003
00:59:58,893 --> 01:00:03,773
Speaker 2: Apprecia hates it always gin thank you. I'm glad you

1004
01:00:03,813 --> 01:00:07,693
Speaker 2: survived the absence. I've just listened to your interview with

1005
01:00:07,893 --> 01:00:12,013
Speaker 2: Martin Durkhain. That was the replay. It was very interesting.

1006
01:00:12,573 --> 01:00:15,693
Speaker 2: A couple of points on Robert Menzies. I agree with

1007
01:00:15,733 --> 01:00:18,533
Speaker 2: you about Menzies. He is by far the best PM

1008
01:00:18,653 --> 01:00:22,933
Speaker 2: of Australia ever. Apart from being a very intelligent man,

1009
01:00:22,973 --> 01:00:25,733
Speaker 2: he also had the common touch and loved nothing better

1010
01:00:25,773 --> 01:00:29,533
Speaker 2: than being on the hustings. He particularly enjoyed responding to

1011
01:00:29,573 --> 01:00:32,613
Speaker 2: the hecklers. Unlike the politicians of today who wouldn't have

1012
01:00:32,653 --> 01:00:36,693
Speaker 2: a clue about how to respond to Heckler's about how

1013
01:00:36,733 --> 01:00:40,413
Speaker 2: to respond to Hecklers. You also ask Martin if there

1014
01:00:40,493 --> 01:00:45,013
Speaker 2: is hope for the under thirties. I think so, says Chris.

1015
01:00:46,133 --> 01:00:48,733
Speaker 2: Why I say this is there appears to be a

1016
01:00:48,773 --> 01:00:52,013
Speaker 2: religious revival in countries like America, Britain, France and even

1017
01:00:52,053 --> 01:00:56,933
Speaker 2: Australia in the Catholic Church. I've had personal experience of

1018
01:00:56,973 --> 01:01:01,373
Speaker 2: that in my local Catholic parish in Canberra. This seems

1019
01:01:01,453 --> 01:01:04,493
Speaker 2: to be particularly so with young men who have had

1020
01:01:04,573 --> 01:01:08,053
Speaker 2: enough of being called and treated as toxic. It's also

1021
01:01:08,133 --> 01:01:10,853
Speaker 2: the case with young families. The fact that there appears

1022
01:01:10,893 --> 01:01:13,133
Speaker 2: to be a religious revival tells me that they are

1023
01:01:13,533 --> 01:01:17,773
Speaker 2: not buying the woke nonsense which is usually anti Christian

1024
01:01:17,933 --> 01:01:23,013
Speaker 2: and particularly anti Catholic. Chris from Condor in the Act

1025
01:01:24,573 --> 01:01:29,373
Speaker 2: now written on December thirteenth, From Bruce, I thought you'd

1026
01:01:29,373 --> 01:01:33,213
Speaker 2: appreciate this. This is a quote. We will look back

1027
01:01:33,253 --> 01:01:35,693
Speaker 2: on this period in the history of science as the

1028
01:01:35,773 --> 01:01:39,493
Speaker 2: Dark Ages, when knowledge and power resided with politicians and

1029
01:01:39,533 --> 01:01:43,693
Speaker 2: scientists who abused the scientific process for their own selfish ms.

1030
01:01:44,373 --> 01:01:47,133
Speaker 2: They ruined careers, breaking the will of good men and

1031
01:01:47,173 --> 01:01:51,733
Speaker 2: women with whom they disagreed. While performing terrible disservice to

1032
01:01:51,773 --> 01:01:56,613
Speaker 2: science itself, they betrayed the fundamental tenets of the scientific process,

1033
01:01:57,093 --> 01:02:01,013
Speaker 2: the rigorous, unflinching search for facts. They forgot that it

1034
01:02:01,053 --> 01:02:05,493
Speaker 2: is not a search for truth. For that, look to religion.

1035
01:02:07,093 --> 01:02:10,933
Speaker 2: An excerpt from I'm What I Read What He Read

1036
01:02:11,733 --> 01:02:16,853
Speaker 2: from PJ Media, posted twelve December, Merry Christmas from Bruce.

1037
01:02:17,413 --> 01:02:21,813
Speaker 2: I'll take that for Christmas coming. And Bruce, by the way,

1038
01:02:21,853 --> 01:02:24,173
Speaker 2: that quote is very good. I'm going to hang on

1039
01:02:24,213 --> 01:02:24,413
Speaker 2: to it.

1040
01:02:24,453 --> 01:02:27,613
Speaker 5: Tank you ladon, I'll finish with this one and forgive

1041
01:02:27,653 --> 01:02:31,293
Speaker 5: me because I'm going back to your M and ZM,

1042
01:02:31,333 --> 01:02:34,373
Speaker 5: so the last one. I am a longtime listener, says Greg,

1043
01:02:34,573 --> 01:02:37,093
Speaker 5: going back to the mid nineteen eighties and Adelaide. When

1044
01:02:37,093 --> 01:02:39,293
Speaker 5: I first heard you on air back then, it was

1045
01:02:39,333 --> 01:02:42,213
Speaker 5: a breath of fresh air to listen to you. Unfortunately,

1046
01:02:42,213 --> 01:02:44,813
Speaker 5: you didn't hang around for long and your replacement and

1047
01:02:44,853 --> 01:02:48,253
Speaker 5: his Blue Rinse Brigade audience took over again. So when

1048
01:02:48,293 --> 01:02:50,613
Speaker 5: I moved to New Zealand in nineteen ninety two, I

1049
01:02:50,653 --> 01:02:53,253
Speaker 5: picked up where we left off. I have been a

1050
01:02:53,253 --> 01:02:55,653
Speaker 5: fan of podcasts for quite a while now, and I

1051
01:02:55,693 --> 01:02:58,933
Speaker 5: look forward to yours coming out every Wednesday. Last year,

1052
01:02:58,973 --> 01:03:00,813
Speaker 5: I have to say every week you had a great

1053
01:03:00,973 --> 01:03:04,533
Speaker 5: guest kicking off this year with Shane Jones again was brilliant.

1054
01:03:04,733 --> 01:03:07,333
Speaker 5: Even journalists over here think he is on the money,

1055
01:03:07,893 --> 01:03:11,213
Speaker 5: and I see that Greg is now in Melbourne. I

1056
01:03:11,293 --> 01:03:14,413
Speaker 5: saw one interview last year where a skyjournalist asked him

1057
01:03:14,413 --> 01:03:16,373
Speaker 5: if he could clone himself and come over here to

1058
01:03:16,413 --> 01:03:19,053
Speaker 5: help out anyway. I just wanted to reach out and

1059
01:03:19,093 --> 01:03:21,733
Speaker 5: finally touch base with you. Keep up the great work

1060
01:03:22,333 --> 01:03:23,013
Speaker 5: that's from Greg.

1061
01:03:23,053 --> 01:03:26,013
Speaker 2: If he could clone himself, we'd keep all the copies, yes,

1062
01:03:26,653 --> 01:03:31,253
Speaker 2: because we need them. Greg, that's the most exciting email

1063
01:03:31,333 --> 01:03:34,453
Speaker 2: I've had for a while. That's not to discredit the others,

1064
01:03:34,573 --> 01:03:38,933
Speaker 2: but just you going back. That's amazing. Adelaide, What was

1065
01:03:38,973 --> 01:03:42,133
Speaker 2: it forty years ago or even for this is the

1066
01:03:42,173 --> 01:03:46,573
Speaker 2: forty first year since I put in six months in Adelaide,

1067
01:03:47,293 --> 01:03:52,173
Speaker 2: and I sometimes wonder what would have befalled me if

1068
01:03:52,213 --> 01:03:55,653
Speaker 2: I'd stayed there, because they tried to get me back

1069
01:03:55,653 --> 01:03:56,333
Speaker 2: for three years.

1070
01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:56,813
Speaker 3: They tried.

1071
01:03:57,213 --> 01:03:59,573
Speaker 2: I can only say that if I had gone back

1072
01:03:59,613 --> 01:04:03,293
Speaker 2: to Adelaide or stayed there in the first place, I

1073
01:04:03,293 --> 01:04:06,213
Speaker 2: wouldn't have two boys. I wouldn't have the woman sitting

1074
01:04:06,253 --> 01:04:09,293
Speaker 2: across from me at the moment in my life, and

1075
01:04:09,413 --> 01:04:13,533
Speaker 2: lots of other good friends and experiences. So the move

1076
01:04:13,653 --> 01:04:16,693
Speaker 2: was good, but I still wonder what would have happened.

1077
01:04:16,653 --> 01:04:19,493
Speaker 4: As we all do, however, sliding doors.

1078
01:04:19,573 --> 01:04:22,293
Speaker 2: So that'll do, and we'll see you next week and

1079
01:04:22,773 --> 01:04:24,973
Speaker 2: we'll roll with a few more of these. But in

1080
01:04:25,013 --> 01:04:28,373
Speaker 2: the meantime Latent News Talks AB dot co dot and said,

1081
01:04:28,733 --> 01:04:32,213
Speaker 2: or Carolyn with a y at NEWSTALKSB dot co dot

1082
01:04:32,293 --> 01:04:34,093
Speaker 2: N said, if you want to correspond, go for it.

1083
01:04:34,533 --> 01:04:47,533
Speaker 4: Thanks Layton, Layton Smith.

1084
01:04:47,973 --> 01:04:51,533
Speaker 2: Just after the interview was recorded, well shortly thereafter, I

1085
01:04:51,613 --> 01:04:54,533
Speaker 2: received from Mike an article he just done some work

1086
01:04:54,573 --> 01:04:57,773
Speaker 2: on under the heading of cultivation management. And I think it.

1087
01:04:58,093 --> 01:05:00,293
Speaker 2: I think it adds what did to me, adds to

1088
01:05:00,973 --> 01:05:04,133
Speaker 2: our understanding. So I would like to read it, and

1089
01:05:04,133 --> 01:05:06,573
Speaker 2: I we'll read it in its entirety, I think, because

1090
01:05:06,733 --> 01:05:09,733
Speaker 2: some little under two pages, if you've got other things

1091
01:05:09,773 --> 01:05:12,253
Speaker 2: to do, then I understand. But you can come back

1092
01:05:12,293 --> 01:05:16,093
Speaker 2: to it, of course. So cultivation management treats management as

1093
01:05:16,173 --> 01:05:19,893
Speaker 2: the deliberate shaping of whole systems over time. It assumes

1094
01:05:19,933 --> 01:05:25,893
Speaker 2: that every policy, practice and decision generates downstream effects that accumulate, interact,

1095
01:05:26,133 --> 01:05:30,933
Speaker 2: and ultimately determine the long term health of the system.

1096
01:05:31,173 --> 01:05:33,773
Speaker 2: It is grounded in the recognition that the world now

1097
01:05:33,893 --> 01:05:38,173
Speaker 2: changes faster than the management styles inherited from the twentieth

1098
01:05:38,213 --> 01:05:42,693
Speaker 2: century can cope with. Conditions shift more rapidly, pressures compound

1099
01:05:42,693 --> 01:05:47,133
Speaker 2: more quickly, and the consequences of inaction or misaction arrive

1100
01:05:47,533 --> 01:05:52,813
Speaker 2: sooner and with greater force. Cultivation management, therefore, treats change

1101
01:05:52,933 --> 01:05:56,853
Speaker 2: as a constant and designs for it. It initiates adjustments

1102
01:05:57,293 --> 01:06:02,773
Speaker 2: and system level shifts in anticipation of emerging pressures, strengthening

1103
01:06:02,813 --> 01:06:07,253
Speaker 2: and renewing the system before crises force reactive responses. Now

1104
01:06:07,293 --> 01:06:10,933
Speaker 2: this stands in sharp contrast to the short term, reactive

1105
01:06:10,973 --> 01:06:14,893
Speaker 2: modes of management that dominate many governments and organizations today.

1106
01:06:15,573 --> 01:06:20,413
Speaker 2: These modes respond to immediate pressures, political incentives, market cycles,

1107
01:06:20,733 --> 01:06:25,133
Speaker 2: or inherited routines, rather than the long term needs of

1108
01:06:25,173 --> 01:06:29,333
Speaker 2: the system. New Zealand's housing system illustrates how these modes

1109
01:06:29,453 --> 01:06:35,053
Speaker 2: interact to produce persistent, compounding failure. The continued reliance on

1110
01:06:35,253 --> 01:06:40,173
Speaker 2: motels as emergency housing, a practice that existed and persists

1111
01:06:40,333 --> 01:06:43,373
Speaker 2: under the previous Labor government and now under the current

1112
01:06:43,413 --> 01:06:48,333
Speaker 2: government did not arise from a single decision or single administration.

1113
01:06:49,293 --> 01:06:53,493
Speaker 2: It emerged from the convergence of several short term management

1114
01:06:53,573 --> 01:06:59,053
Speaker 2: styles operating simultaneously. Legacy management is the first of these motels.

1115
01:06:59,093 --> 01:07:03,813
Speaker 2: Began as a temporary stopgap, but once embedded in bureaucratic processes,

1116
01:07:04,213 --> 01:07:07,933
Speaker 2: they became the default response. The system kept using them

1117
01:07:08,373 --> 01:07:11,773
Speaker 2: not because they were effective, but because they were familiar,

1118
01:07:12,333 --> 01:07:18,133
Speaker 2: administratively simple, and required no structural change. Legacy management is

1119
01:07:18,173 --> 01:07:23,333
Speaker 2: the logic of institutional inertia. Inherited tools persist long after

1120
01:07:23,373 --> 01:07:29,053
Speaker 2: the conditions that justified them have changed. Ideological management adds

1121
01:07:29,173 --> 01:07:33,613
Speaker 2: a second layer. Different governments brought different world views, and

1122
01:07:33,733 --> 01:07:37,973
Speaker 2: the public service aligned its advice accordingly. Under the Key government,

1123
01:07:37,973 --> 01:07:40,893
Speaker 2: the Department of Housing advised that state housing stock should

1124
01:07:40,893 --> 01:07:44,253
Speaker 2: be reduced and sold, and that advice was acted upon.

1125
01:07:45,013 --> 01:07:48,573
Speaker 2: Years later, under the Addern government, the same department, often

1126
01:07:48,613 --> 01:07:52,333
Speaker 2: the same individuals, advised that there was now a severe

1127
01:07:52,373 --> 01:07:56,333
Speaker 2: shortage of state housing and that rapid construction was urgently required.

1128
01:07:57,133 --> 01:08:00,933
Speaker 2: That advice was also acted upon. Both governments were held

1129
01:08:01,053 --> 01:08:04,853
Speaker 2: accountable by voters for the outcomes of these decisions, Yet

1130
01:08:04,893 --> 01:08:08,973
Speaker 2: those who provided the advice and whose earlier recommendations helped

1131
01:08:09,093 --> 01:08:13,773
Speaker 2: create the conditions for the later crisis, whenever held accountable

1132
01:08:13,813 --> 01:08:18,333
Speaker 2: at all. This dynamic is well understood in Westminster systems.

1133
01:08:18,613 --> 01:08:23,253
Speaker 2: Margaret Thatcher once observed that Yes, Minister was not a

1134
01:08:23,293 --> 01:08:27,493
Speaker 2: comedy but a documentary. The New Zealand Public Service, like

1135
01:08:27,533 --> 01:08:31,973
Speaker 2: its counterparts elsewhere, is a politically aware, self preserving institution.

1136
01:08:32,533 --> 01:08:35,693
Speaker 2: It adapts its advice to the ideology of the government

1137
01:08:35,733 --> 01:08:40,533
Speaker 2: of the day, protects its own continuity, and avoids responsibility

1138
01:08:40,533 --> 01:08:45,693
Speaker 2: for long term consequences. Public servants have longer careers than politicians,

1139
01:08:46,213 --> 01:08:50,853
Speaker 2: but their longer horizon is oriented toward institutional survival, not

1140
01:08:51,013 --> 01:08:54,613
Speaker 2: toward the long term health of the system. The ability

1141
01:08:54,653 --> 01:08:58,973
Speaker 2: to pivot from sell to build without ever acknowledging the

1142
01:08:59,013 --> 01:09:04,333
Speaker 2: consequences of earlier advice is not evidence of neutrality. It

1143
01:09:04,413 --> 01:09:07,973
Speaker 2: is evidence of a system designed to preserve itself. Corporate

1144
01:09:08,013 --> 01:09:13,173
Speaker 2: management forms a third layer. Developers, financiers, and landowners operate

1145
01:09:13,253 --> 01:09:17,653
Speaker 2: on short financial cycles, not long term system horizons. Their

1146
01:09:17,693 --> 01:09:23,533
Speaker 2: incentives quarterly returns, risk minimization, land speculation, and profit driven

1147
01:09:23,573 --> 01:09:29,133
Speaker 2: development patterns contribute to chronic undersupply of affordable housing. This

1148
01:09:29,453 --> 01:09:33,533
Speaker 2: market driven shorterism creates the conditions in which the governments

1149
01:09:33,573 --> 01:09:38,053
Speaker 2: are repeatedly forced into reactive crisis management. Corporate actors do

1150
01:09:38,133 --> 01:09:41,573
Speaker 2: not create the motel solution directly, but they shape the

1151
01:09:41,733 --> 01:09:46,573
Speaker 2: environment that makes the Motel solution politically and administratively attractive.

1152
01:09:47,013 --> 01:09:51,533
Speaker 2: Political management completes the picture three year electoral cycles, media

1153
01:09:51,613 --> 01:09:56,133
Speaker 2: driven urgency, and the need to demonstrate visible action makes

1154
01:09:56,173 --> 01:10:01,773
Speaker 2: motels politically convenient. They produce immediate results, avoid contentious reforms,

1155
01:10:02,253 --> 01:10:07,573
Speaker 2: and provide a tangible response to crisis. Long term structural

1156
01:10:07,613 --> 01:10:11,053
Speaker 2: solutions will not mature within a single term and carry

1157
01:10:11,053 --> 01:10:17,733
Speaker 2: political risk. Politicians therefore gravitate toward actions that can be announced, photographed,

1158
01:10:17,773 --> 01:10:20,853
Speaker 2: and defended, rather than those that will bear fruit in

1159
01:10:20,973 --> 01:10:27,893
Speaker 2: ten or twenty years. Legacy, ideological, corporate and political management

1160
01:10:28,933 --> 01:10:33,133
Speaker 2: combine to produce a system that cannot sustain long term strategies.

1161
01:10:33,293 --> 01:10:40,373
Speaker 2: Temporary measures become permanent. Contradictory policies accumulate market pressures, distort supply.

1162
01:10:41,413 --> 01:10:46,333
Speaker 2: Bureaucratic incentives protect the institution rather than the public. Governments

1163
01:10:46,373 --> 01:10:49,653
Speaker 2: are punished at the ballot box for outcomes shaped by

1164
01:10:49,813 --> 01:10:53,973
Speaker 2: decades of contradictory advice, while those who shaped the advice

1165
01:10:54,053 --> 01:10:59,173
Speaker 2: remain untouched. Cultivation management is the alternative to this pattern.

1166
01:10:59,493 --> 01:11:02,653
Speaker 2: It's designed for a world where conditions change rapidly and

1167
01:11:02,693 --> 01:11:08,253
Speaker 2: where systems must be strengthened and renewed continuously. It integrates short, low,

1168
01:11:08,933 --> 01:11:13,253
Speaker 2: and very long time horizons. It anticipates emerging pressures and

1169
01:11:13,333 --> 01:11:18,853
Speaker 2: adjusts system settings before they become brittle. It maintains continuity

1170
01:11:18,853 --> 01:11:24,173
Speaker 2: across political cycles, ideological shifts, bureaucratic habits, and market pressures.

1171
01:11:24,773 --> 01:11:31,453
Speaker 2: Where legacy management clings to inherited routines, ideological management swings

1172
01:11:31,453 --> 01:11:35,613
Speaker 2: with the political world views. Corporate management chases quarterly upcomes,

1173
01:11:35,933 --> 01:11:42,813
Speaker 2: and political management pursues immediate support. Cultivation management focuses on

1174
01:11:42,933 --> 01:11:45,853
Speaker 2: what the system will require in the future, not what

1175
01:11:46,013 --> 01:11:50,493
Speaker 2: is convenience in the present. Nada wrap this up. Mike

1176
01:11:50,573 --> 01:11:54,813
Speaker 2: makes a final comment and it reads Luxon's opportunity is

1177
01:11:54,933 --> 01:11:58,253
Speaker 2: visible within this new vision. He can transition from a

1178
01:11:58,293 --> 01:12:03,333
Speaker 2: caretaker and legacy management role to resilience leadership by championing

1179
01:12:03,533 --> 01:12:08,613
Speaker 2: structural projects that harden the grid, secure, agriculture, and tech

1180
01:12:08,733 --> 01:12:14,093
Speaker 2: regional lifelines. This requires abandoning the current inadequate inertia and

1181
01:12:14,173 --> 01:12:19,053
Speaker 2: adopting resilience as the organizing principle of his leadership. If

1182
01:12:19,093 --> 01:12:22,293
Speaker 2: he does, he could not only rehabilitate his reputation, but

1183
01:12:22,413 --> 01:12:27,053
Speaker 2: anchor New Zealand's future in continuity and competence. He could

1184
01:12:27,173 --> 01:12:31,253
Speaker 2: establish the foundation for the increase in GDP that he

1185
01:12:31,373 --> 01:12:35,053
Speaker 2: has said is desperately needed, but to date seems to

1186
01:12:35,093 --> 01:12:38,773
Speaker 2: be unable to elucidate how it could be achieved. So

1187
01:12:38,773 --> 01:12:40,853
Speaker 2: I will leave you with that, and I think it's

1188
01:12:40,893 --> 01:12:43,853
Speaker 2: a very good comment to finish on. So that takes

1189
01:12:43,933 --> 01:12:47,973
Speaker 2: us out for podcast number three hundred and sixteen. If

1190
01:12:48,013 --> 01:12:50,413
Speaker 2: you would like to write to us Layton at USTALKSB

1191
01:12:50,493 --> 01:12:53,213
Speaker 2: dot co dot nz and Carolyn at us TALKSB dot

1192
01:12:53,253 --> 01:12:58,213
Speaker 2: co dot nz. We shall return as always in a

1193
01:12:58,213 --> 01:13:02,693
Speaker 2: few days time with the podcast number three hundred and seventeen.

1194
01:13:03,133 --> 01:13:06,373
Speaker 2: In the meantime, thank you for listening and we shall

1195
01:13:06,373 --> 01:13:07,093
Speaker 2: talk soon.

1196
01:13:08,373 --> 01:13:10,133
Speaker 3: Mm hmmmmmmmm.

1197
01:13:14,893 --> 01:13:18,533
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at B. Listen

1198
01:13:18,613 --> 01:13:21,573
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1199
01:13:21,693 --> 01:13:24,773
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio