WEBVTT - Politicians raise security concerns as new research shines light on abuse, harassment faced by female MPs 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:05.400 Hilda. 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:08.720 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:16.200 daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There's no 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.760 doubt about it. Being a parliamentarian is a public facing, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:25.480 high stress, demanding job. Your exposed, scrutinized, and your decisions 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.200 affect the entire country for better or worse. But do 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:33.279 the high stakes constitute the abuse they face some on 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.440 a daily basis. Recently we've seen Minister Shane Jones and 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:41.600 his wife Dot accosted at an airport, increased security for 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.080 Mayors Wayne Brown and Tanya tap Cell, and death threats 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.360 aimed at Green MP Benjamin Doyle. But those are all 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.720 just stories from the last month. University of Otago research 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:56.640 out today shows female MPs are being assaulted with weapons, 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.200 threatened with rape and subjected to deaths and it's become 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.200 commonplace today on the Front Page, Senior author and Professor 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:08.240 Susanna Everyparma is with us to talk about whether it's 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:16.800 high time to better protect our elected officials. Susanna tell 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.080 me about this research. How many MPs were spoken to, So. 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.520 We spoke to eleven women and just for context, this 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.800 research was a follow up from our survey in twenty 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:32.720 twenty two when we recruited both male and female MPs, 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.880 and we found that almost all forms of abuse against 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:41.240 MPs had increased, but the nature of abuse directed at 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.240 women MPs seemed substantively. 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:47.320 Different, right, And what kinds of experiences did they describe? 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.720 So they talked about experiencing much more personal forms of abuse. 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:56.480 So they were at significantly higher risks of certain types 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.280 of social media harassment, including gendered abuse, actualized comments, but 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:05.960 also really nasty stuff like rape threats and possibly worst 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.480 of all, threats towards family members like their children. So, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.720 just to give you some stats, women were twice as 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.840 likely to receive death threats as male MPs and almost 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.440 six times as likely to have their family threatened. So 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.959 in this research that we did, we did in depth 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.760 interviews with women MPs across the political spectrum, asking them 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:26.639 about these experiences and. 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.560 What did you find in that respect, because you say, 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.359 across the political spectrum, it doesn't matter what color you are, 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.640 basically as to what kind of threats you get. 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.919 It doesn't know. So we found that harassment occurred whether 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.919 you were in a right leaning or a left leaning party, 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.040 but it did appear that it was worse, you know, 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:54.160 for younger women and for non white women as well. 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.600 I have had to take things a lot less personally 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:59.680 than when I started out. I used to read every 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.160 comment and take it to heart. And you have to 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.840 rise above a lot of that. You have to take 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.840 honest criticism from where, from the places that matter to you, 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.760 from the people who put you into power in the 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:16.959 first place, and that ability to endure those attacks requires 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.240 you to stay grounded. That might be the bush, that 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:21.400 might be getting enough sleep, that might be cuddles with 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:23.400 a look upon it, whatever it is. I think we 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.919 can all benefit from balancing the stress of the job 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:27.560 a bit better. 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:35.040 One MP's comment stood out to me. They said, it's relentless, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.520 there's not a break from it. There's not a single 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:41.040 post that I've posted that doesn't have misogynistic comments or 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.440 racist comments on it. And then you add to that 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.040 death threats. No one, No one prepares you for that. 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.320 Should parliamentarians be more prepared for these kinds of situations? 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.560 Are they given any training or guidance at all? 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:55.880 That was one of the things that the women said 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.000 is that they wished at the beginning, when they were started, 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.160 that they had have had more orientation and cyber safety training. 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.080 And one example that one woman said that initially she 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.680 started getting this really nasty stuff and people had told her, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.320 you know, ignore it, delete it, so she deleted and blocked. 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.120 But then when it got to the point that she 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.479 did not feel safe and needed to get police involvement, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.360 she hadn't kept any of the evidence. So women were saying, yes, 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:26.239 that they wished that they had been better I guess 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:30.000 orientated and trained when they got into their roles. 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:32.520 And you mentioned the previous survey, and I'll just radle 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:36.080 off a few statistics from that in that ninety eight 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:40.760 percent of the fifty four MP's surveyed reported experiencing harassment, 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.840 forty percent said that they were threatened with physical violence, 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.800 fourteen percents with sexual violence, and nineteen percent told the 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.240 researchers threats were made against family members. 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:54.320 Is it getting worse, Yes, it's getting worse. So there's 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.520 no doubt that there has been a change. And we 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.800 were able to compare our twenty twenty two findings with 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.279 similar research that we did in twenty fourteen, and the 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:09.279 volume and severity and general nastiness has increased, and people 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:13.000 felt that the rest had significantly increased to them as well, 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.560 and this went beyond MPs. So in the twenty fourteen 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.680 study there were about twenty eight percent of staff or 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:25.120 family members who were reported to feel afraid. This had 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.159 increased up to eighty percent in twenty twenty two. So 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.320 it was impacting not just on parliamentarians but on those 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.160 around them, and that concern them a great deal, and 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.440 people really worried about the safety of their staff, you know, 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:44.520 and their kids and other family members. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.520 Having been out overseas and some of you have come 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.160 with me, you'll see huge closeting and protection of MPs, 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.880 ministers and Prime ministers and presidents and as a result, 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.360 they are not accessible and not available to the public, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.760 and as I move around it's quite obvious they're not 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.920 used to seeing prime ministers or mp As a result, 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.120 we want to continue to keep our New Zealand way 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:04.960 of there, which is that actually I do want to 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:06.520 go to the do a Leap of concert on Friday, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.320 and I want to know that I can actually do 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.880 that as a private citizen, but also engage with people 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.039 along the way who are always pretty generous with me 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.960 and pretty good to me. You know, that's important. I 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.360 think to be able to have the availability and accessibility 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.640 that we have with our politicians, which is unique, I 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:21.080 just put it to you compared to what I see 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.920 in other countries. Equally, we do have some really serious 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.280 threats and I don't talk about in the impersonal That's 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.279 a position I've had from the beginning, and we're trying 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.560 to find that balance always of making sure we're protected 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:33.400 but equally we're accessible. And I think you know that's incumbent. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.080 So when we see an event like we saw at 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.800 the Eukland airports, you know it's utterly unacceptable and obviously 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.800 it's now the full police. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.720 Well just recently, Cabinet Minister Shane Jones's wife Dot was 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.680 allegedly grabbed by a man at Altland Airport who had 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:53.120 shouted angry slurs at Jones. She spoke to The Herald 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.400 to highlight the risk MP's face, but also as a 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.640 warning to other MP's spouses and families. So that's a 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.279 real concern here, isn't it When it branches out to 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.120 family members and those surrounding the MPs. 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:09.720 Exactly, and it can really affect how people live their 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:14.240 lives as well. So our participants talked about this harassment, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.520 changing what they did, where they went, how they got there, 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.240 and even how safe it felt in their own home. 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.000 Has there been a shift from I guess i'll call 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:28.080 it online world versus it being taken into the real world. 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.280 I think so. So there's been a lot written about 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.600 the online disinhibition effect, so you know that refers to 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:39.120 the keyboard warriors who communicate in much more aggressive ways 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.120 online than they would in person. But now we do 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.040 seem to be getting a bit of what I would 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:49.280 call the online amplification effect. And this is when people's 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:53.960 views get reinforced and encouraged in online forums and then 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.160 spills over to the way that they behave in real life. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.840 So MP's talked about a greater chance that angry people 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.560 would come up and accost them at the supermarket, in 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.239 the street, or even at the airport at seven thirty 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.320 in the morning. Is in the case of Shane Jones 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:11.280 and his wife. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.240 And some MPs I believe mentioned that they have actually 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:16.120 been assaulted. 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.040 Yes, it's not just how much you're hurt at the time, 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.360 but the fear that you feel that you could be 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:26.640 seriously hurt or even kurled. And so MPs did talk 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.000 about being scared, being afraid from their own safety, the 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:35.280 safety of others, and also experiencing post traumatic symptoms in 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:45.880 relation to some of these events. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.720 A lot of this has come from social media, and 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.200 that's what Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown and Rotarua Mayor Tanya 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.880 tap Cell have experienced as well. Does social media just 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.360 make it easier to casually tell a politician you want 0:08:59.400 --> 0:08:59.960 them to die? 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:00.520 Yes? 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.120 I think so, and that anonymity behind that as well 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.240 makes it easier for people to say things that they 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:08.360 may not actually mean. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:12.480 We know when Jasindra Adun resigned, while she didn't explicitly 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.920 say it was because of the vitriol she faced. Chris 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.240 Hopkins came in saying he would protect his family from 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:23.800 what he called abhorrent abuse that his predecessor received in office. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.680 Threats against her ramped up by the time she left. 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.480 The bee Hive data showed targets against her are tripled 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.800 over three years, with at least eight threats entered into 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.480 the legal system, including a man who vowed to shoot 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.440 her for treason. Was she protected enough and has anything 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:41.840 changed since then? 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:49.240 One thing that our participants mentioned is that when Jasinda 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:53.880 Adern resigned that the threats against them and the vitriol 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:59.200 targeted at them reduced. And this was a comment that 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.400 many said made that it was that when women rose 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.240 to a certain level of power that seemed to have 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.880 negative consequences on other women. So they also talked about 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:14.439 women losing certain portfolios because their gender became too much 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:15.240 of a distraction. 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:18.200 And of course there's also that larger conversation at play 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.960 here as well. Female MPs are faced with gender based harassment, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:25.040 then it challenges representation in politics as well. 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.880 Hey, yeah, that's what we describe as a threat to democracy. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.000 So that based on this, people especially women, maybe less 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:35.080 likely to go into politics. They might be less able 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.400 to engage in the political work, so not feeling safe 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.720 to go out campaigning or be you know, a public 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.040 figure available to their constituents. And it could also exacerbate 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:50.120 stress and burnout, leading to women prematurely leaving parliament as well. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.800 So it's a problem not just for the MPs that 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.960 are facing that, but for democracy. And this is something 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.480 that has also been seen in overseas jurisdiction as well. 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.520 Yeah, I was about to say, I see you've referred 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.120 to the UK politician Joe Cox. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.800 She was murdered in twenty sixteen by white supremacist in 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:10.880 a politically motivated attack. 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.080 What was recommended after that. 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.880 Yes, So the Joe Cox Foundation set up a number 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:19.880 of recommendations after that, which I think that we can 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.800 learn from as well. So often when these threats come in, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:28.200 they're responded to on an individual basis, with the onus 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.440 on the person who's threatened the NP to take legal 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.760 action against the perpetrator, which is quite a burden for 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.360 them to carry. The Joe Cox Foundation talked about setting 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.200 up a central body that would monitor and coordinated response 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.720 to abuse, and also about developing guidelines on abuse for 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.480 both parliamentarians but also for the police and how they 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.760 responded not just to the actual violence that was perpetrated, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.559 but to the risk of harm and the psychological consequences 0:11:58.640 --> 0:11:59.280 that that had. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:06.680 There's no question unfortunately women in leadership positions, women in politics, 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.440 but women and other leadership positions are the subject of 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.560 far more abuse and vitriol than men doing comparable jobs are. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:15.800 And I think we do have a responsibility as men 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.480 to step up and to condemn that and to speak 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.319 out against it. Now, I think there are many men 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.560 who feel a bit uncomfortable about that, and it's not 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.360 because they want to endorse the sentiment, but because they 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:27.400 don't want to be seen to be undermining the women 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.280 who are the subject of it. But I think we 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.880 do need to have honest conversations about it. It is 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.920 happening and it's not okay and it's not fair. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.559 What should be done in New Zealand to prevent something 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:44.960 like that from happening? I mean, if nothing is done 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.439 and the abuse just keeps getting worse and worse, do 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.520 we run the risk of having a Joe Cock situation 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:51.720 in New Zealand. 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.240 It's a small risk, but it is a risk. Some 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.679 of the things that we would recommend is more orientation 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:06.400 and cyber safety training for politicians at induction, increased resources 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:10.480 for them for home and office security, support for the staff. 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:16.080 So many women commented that their electorate staff were those 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.079 who were in the frontline of the abuse. They're often 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.680 at the coal face, so support for them and for 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.920 family members of politicians as well. And measures around enhance 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:30.000 social media screening and filtering of harmful content, and also 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.720 possibly legislation change and a willingness to prosecute people who 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.160 behave in harmful ways online. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:41.280 When conducting this research and with the skills and knowledge 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.400 that you have, Susannah, does it shock you the comments 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.960 you see and the stories you're told by these MPs. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.120 I'm a forensic psychiatrist, so that is a high risk. 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.560 We're seen as a high risk profession in terms of 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.559 coming in for abuse. I expected from my previous research 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.160 that in Peace would be subjected to nasty stuff, but yes, 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:10.520 I was shocked by the relentless and pervasive nature on 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.760 it and also the effects that it was having on 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:16.640 many in peace families as well. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:23.360 Thanks for joining us, Susannah, You're welcome. That's it for this. 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.520 Episode of the Front Page. You can read more about 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:31.000 today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.200 dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:38.560 and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer. 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:40.520 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.280 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.080 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:49.440 behind the headlines.