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Speaker 1: Hilda.

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Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a

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Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. There's no

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Speaker 2: doubt about it. Being a parliamentarian is a public facing,

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Speaker 2: high stress, demanding job. Your exposed, scrutinized, and your decisions

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Speaker 2: affect the entire country for better or worse. But do

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Speaker 2: the high stakes constitute the abuse they face some on

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Speaker 2: a daily basis. Recently we've seen Minister Shane Jones and

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Speaker 2: his wife Dot accosted at an airport, increased security for

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Speaker 2: Mayors Wayne Brown and Tanya tap Cell, and death threats

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Speaker 2: aimed at Green MP Benjamin Doyle. But those are all

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Speaker 2: just stories from the last month. University of Otago research

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Speaker 2: out today shows female MPs are being assaulted with weapons,

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Speaker 2: threatened with rape and subjected to deaths and it's become

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Speaker 2: commonplace today on the Front Page, Senior author and Professor

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Speaker 2: Susanna Everyparma is with us to talk about whether it's

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Speaker 2: high time to better protect our elected officials. Susanna tell

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Speaker 2: me about this research. How many MPs were spoken to, So.

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Speaker 3: We spoke to eleven women and just for context, this

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Speaker 3: research was a follow up from our survey in twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty two when we recruited both male and female MPs,

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Speaker 3: and we found that almost all forms of abuse against

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Speaker 3: MPs had increased, but the nature of abuse directed at

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Speaker 3: women MPs seemed substantively.

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Speaker 2: Different, right, And what kinds of experiences did they describe?

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Speaker 3: So they talked about experiencing much more personal forms of abuse.

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Speaker 3: So they were at significantly higher risks of certain types

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Speaker 3: of social media harassment, including gendered abuse, actualized comments, but

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Speaker 3: also really nasty stuff like rape threats and possibly worst

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Speaker 3: of all, threats towards family members like their children. So,

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Speaker 3: just to give you some stats, women were twice as

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Speaker 3: likely to receive death threats as male MPs and almost

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Speaker 3: six times as likely to have their family threatened. So

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Speaker 3: in this research that we did, we did in depth

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Speaker 3: interviews with women MPs across the political spectrum, asking them

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Speaker 3: about these experiences and.

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Speaker 2: What did you find in that respect, because you say,

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Speaker 2: across the political spectrum, it doesn't matter what color you are,

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Speaker 2: basically as to what kind of threats you get.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't know. So we found that harassment occurred whether

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Speaker 3: you were in a right leaning or a left leaning party,

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Speaker 3: but it did appear that it was worse, you know,

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Speaker 3: for younger women and for non white women as well.

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Speaker 4: I have had to take things a lot less personally

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Speaker 4: than when I started out. I used to read every

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Speaker 4: comment and take it to heart. And you have to

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Speaker 4: rise above a lot of that. You have to take

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Speaker 4: honest criticism from where, from the places that matter to you,

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Speaker 4: from the people who put you into power in the

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Speaker 4: first place, and that ability to endure those attacks requires

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Speaker 4: you to stay grounded. That might be the bush, that

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Speaker 4: might be getting enough sleep, that might be cuddles with

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Speaker 4: a look upon it, whatever it is. I think we

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Speaker 4: can all benefit from balancing the stress of the job

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Speaker 4: a bit better.

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Speaker 2: One MP's comment stood out to me. They said, it's relentless,

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Speaker 2: there's not a break from it. There's not a single

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Speaker 2: post that I've posted that doesn't have misogynistic comments or

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Speaker 2: racist comments on it. And then you add to that

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Speaker 2: death threats. No one, No one prepares you for that.

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Speaker 2: Should parliamentarians be more prepared for these kinds of situations?

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Speaker 2: Are they given any training or guidance at all?

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Speaker 3: That was one of the things that the women said

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Speaker 3: is that they wished at the beginning, when they were started,

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Speaker 3: that they had have had more orientation and cyber safety training.

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Speaker 3: And one example that one woman said that initially she

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Speaker 3: started getting this really nasty stuff and people had told her,

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Speaker 3: you know, ignore it, delete it, so she deleted and blocked.

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Speaker 3: But then when it got to the point that she

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Speaker 3: did not feel safe and needed to get police involvement,

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Speaker 3: she hadn't kept any of the evidence. So women were saying, yes,

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Speaker 3: that they wished that they had been better I guess

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Speaker 3: orientated and trained when they got into their roles.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned the previous survey, and I'll just radle

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Speaker 2: off a few statistics from that in that ninety eight

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Speaker 2: percent of the fifty four MP's surveyed reported experiencing harassment,

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Speaker 2: forty percent said that they were threatened with physical violence,

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Speaker 2: fourteen percents with sexual violence, and nineteen percent told the

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Speaker 2: researchers threats were made against family members.

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Speaker 3: Is it getting worse, Yes, it's getting worse. So there's

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Speaker 3: no doubt that there has been a change. And we

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Speaker 3: were able to compare our twenty twenty two findings with

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Speaker 3: similar research that we did in twenty fourteen, and the

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Speaker 3: volume and severity and general nastiness has increased, and people

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Speaker 3: felt that the rest had significantly increased to them as well,

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Speaker 3: and this went beyond MPs. So in the twenty fourteen

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Speaker 3: study there were about twenty eight percent of staff or

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Speaker 3: family members who were reported to feel afraid. This had

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Speaker 3: increased up to eighty percent in twenty twenty two. So

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Speaker 3: it was impacting not just on parliamentarians but on those

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Speaker 3: around them, and that concern them a great deal, and

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Speaker 3: people really worried about the safety of their staff, you know,

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Speaker 3: and their kids and other family members.

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Speaker 5: Having been out overseas and some of you have come

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Speaker 5: with me, you'll see huge closeting and protection of MPs,

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Speaker 5: ministers and Prime ministers and presidents and as a result,

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Speaker 5: they are not accessible and not available to the public,

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Speaker 5: and as I move around it's quite obvious they're not

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Speaker 5: used to seeing prime ministers or mp As a result,

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Speaker 5: we want to continue to keep our New Zealand way

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Speaker 5: of there, which is that actually I do want to

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Speaker 5: go to the do a Leap of concert on Friday,

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Speaker 5: and I want to know that I can actually do

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Speaker 5: that as a private citizen, but also engage with people

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Speaker 5: along the way who are always pretty generous with me

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Speaker 5: and pretty good to me. You know, that's important. I

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Speaker 5: think to be able to have the availability and accessibility

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Speaker 5: that we have with our politicians, which is unique, I

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Speaker 5: just put it to you compared to what I see

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Speaker 5: in other countries. Equally, we do have some really serious

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Speaker 5: threats and I don't talk about in the impersonal That's

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Speaker 5: a position I've had from the beginning, and we're trying

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Speaker 5: to find that balance always of making sure we're protected

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Speaker 5: but equally we're accessible. And I think you know that's incumbent.

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Speaker 5: So when we see an event like we saw at

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Speaker 5: the Eukland airports, you know it's utterly unacceptable and obviously

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Speaker 5: it's now the full police.

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Speaker 2: Well just recently, Cabinet Minister Shane Jones's wife Dot was

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Speaker 2: allegedly grabbed by a man at Altland Airport who had

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Speaker 2: shouted angry slurs at Jones. She spoke to The Herald

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Speaker 2: to highlight the risk MP's face, but also as a

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Speaker 2: warning to other MP's spouses and families. So that's a

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Speaker 2: real concern here, isn't it When it branches out to

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Speaker 2: family members and those surrounding the MPs.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, and it can really affect how people live their

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Speaker 3: lives as well. So our participants talked about this harassment,

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Speaker 3: changing what they did, where they went, how they got there,

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Speaker 3: and even how safe it felt in their own home.

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Speaker 1: Has there been a shift from I guess i'll call

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Speaker 1: it online world versus it being taken into the real world.

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Speaker 3: I think so. So there's been a lot written about

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Speaker 3: the online disinhibition effect, so you know that refers to

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Speaker 3: the keyboard warriors who communicate in much more aggressive ways

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Speaker 3: online than they would in person. But now we do

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Speaker 3: seem to be getting a bit of what I would

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Speaker 3: call the online amplification effect. And this is when people's

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Speaker 3: views get reinforced and encouraged in online forums and then

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Speaker 3: spills over to the way that they behave in real life.

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Speaker 3: So MP's talked about a greater chance that angry people

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Speaker 3: would come up and accost them at the supermarket, in

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Speaker 3: the street, or even at the airport at seven thirty

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Speaker 3: in the morning. Is in the case of Shane Jones

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Speaker 3: and his wife.

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Speaker 2: And some MPs I believe mentioned that they have actually

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Speaker 2: been assaulted.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's not just how much you're hurt at the time,

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Speaker 3: but the fear that you feel that you could be

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Speaker 3: seriously hurt or even kurled. And so MPs did talk

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Speaker 3: about being scared, being afraid from their own safety, the

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Speaker 3: safety of others, and also experiencing post traumatic symptoms in

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Speaker 3: relation to some of these events.

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Speaker 2: A lot of this has come from social media, and

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Speaker 2: that's what Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown and Rotarua Mayor Tanya

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Speaker 2: tap Cell have experienced as well. Does social media just

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Speaker 2: make it easier to casually tell a politician you want

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Speaker 2: them to die?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: I think so, and that anonymity behind that as well

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Speaker 3: makes it easier for people to say things that they

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Speaker 3: may not actually mean.

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Speaker 2: We know when Jasindra Adun resigned, while she didn't explicitly

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Speaker 2: say it was because of the vitriol she faced. Chris

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Speaker 2: Hopkins came in saying he would protect his family from

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Speaker 2: what he called abhorrent abuse that his predecessor received in office.

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Speaker 2: Threats against her ramped up by the time she left.

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Speaker 2: The bee Hive data showed targets against her are tripled

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Speaker 2: over three years, with at least eight threats entered into

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Speaker 2: the legal system, including a man who vowed to shoot

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Speaker 2: her for treason. Was she protected enough and has anything

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Speaker 2: changed since then?

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Speaker 3: One thing that our participants mentioned is that when Jasinda

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Speaker 3: Adern resigned that the threats against them and the vitriol

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Speaker 3: targeted at them reduced. And this was a comment that

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Speaker 3: many said made that it was that when women rose

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Speaker 3: to a certain level of power that seemed to have

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Speaker 3: negative consequences on other women. So they also talked about

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Speaker 3: women losing certain portfolios because their gender became too much

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Speaker 3: of a distraction.

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Speaker 2: And of course there's also that larger conversation at play

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Speaker 2: here as well. Female MPs are faced with gender based harassment,

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Speaker 2: then it challenges representation in politics as well.

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Speaker 3: Hey, yeah, that's what we describe as a threat to democracy.

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Speaker 3: So that based on this, people especially women, maybe less

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Speaker 3: likely to go into politics. They might be less able

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Speaker 3: to engage in the political work, so not feeling safe

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Speaker 3: to go out campaigning or be you know, a public

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Speaker 3: figure available to their constituents. And it could also exacerbate

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Speaker 3: stress and burnout, leading to women prematurely leaving parliament as well.

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Speaker 3: So it's a problem not just for the MPs that

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Speaker 3: are facing that, but for democracy. And this is something

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Speaker 3: that has also been seen in overseas jurisdiction as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was about to say, I see you've referred

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Speaker 1: to the UK politician Joe Cox.

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Speaker 2: She was murdered in twenty sixteen by white supremacist in

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Speaker 2: a politically motivated attack.

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Speaker 1: What was recommended after that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So the Joe Cox Foundation set up a number

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Speaker 3: of recommendations after that, which I think that we can

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Speaker 3: learn from as well. So often when these threats come in,

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Speaker 3: they're responded to on an individual basis, with the onus

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Speaker 3: on the person who's threatened the NP to take legal

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Speaker 3: action against the perpetrator, which is quite a burden for

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Speaker 3: them to carry. The Joe Cox Foundation talked about setting

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Speaker 3: up a central body that would monitor and coordinated response

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Speaker 3: to abuse, and also about developing guidelines on abuse for

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Speaker 3: both parliamentarians but also for the police and how they

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Speaker 3: responded not just to the actual violence that was perpetrated,

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Speaker 3: but to the risk of harm and the psychological consequences

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Speaker 3: that that had.

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Speaker 6: There's no question unfortunately women in leadership positions, women in politics,

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Speaker 6: but women and other leadership positions are the subject of

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Speaker 6: far more abuse and vitriol than men doing comparable jobs are.

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Speaker 6: And I think we do have a responsibility as men

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Speaker 6: to step up and to condemn that and to speak

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Speaker 6: out against it. Now, I think there are many men

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Speaker 6: who feel a bit uncomfortable about that, and it's not

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Speaker 6: because they want to endorse the sentiment, but because they

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Speaker 6: don't want to be seen to be undermining the women

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Speaker 6: who are the subject of it. But I think we

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Speaker 6: do need to have honest conversations about it. It is

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Speaker 6: happening and it's not okay and it's not fair.

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Speaker 2: What should be done in New Zealand to prevent something

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Speaker 2: like that from happening? I mean, if nothing is done

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Speaker 2: and the abuse just keeps getting worse and worse, do

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Speaker 2: we run the risk of having a Joe Cock situation

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand.

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Speaker 3: It's a small risk, but it is a risk. Some

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Speaker 3: of the things that we would recommend is more orientation

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Speaker 3: and cyber safety training for politicians at induction, increased resources

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Speaker 3: for them for home and office security, support for the staff.

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Speaker 3: So many women commented that their electorate staff were those

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Speaker 3: who were in the frontline of the abuse. They're often

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Speaker 3: at the coal face, so support for them and for

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Speaker 3: family members of politicians as well. And measures around enhance

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Speaker 3: social media screening and filtering of harmful content, and also

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Speaker 3: possibly legislation change and a willingness to prosecute people who

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Speaker 3: behave in harmful ways online.

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Speaker 2: When conducting this research and with the skills and knowledge

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Speaker 2: that you have, Susannah, does it shock you the comments

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Speaker 2: you see and the stories you're told by these MPs.

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Speaker 3: I'm a forensic psychiatrist, so that is a high risk.

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Speaker 3: We're seen as a high risk profession in terms of

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Speaker 3: coming in for abuse. I expected from my previous research

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Speaker 3: that in Peace would be subjected to nasty stuff, but yes,

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Speaker 3: I was shocked by the relentless and pervasive nature on

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Speaker 3: it and also the effects that it was having on

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Speaker 3: many in peace families as well.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Susannah, You're welcome. That's it for this.

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Speaker 2: Episode of the Front Page. You can read more about

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Speaker 2: today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzidherld dot co

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Speaker 2: dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills

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Speaker 2: and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you

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Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look

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Speaker 2: behind the headlines.