1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: With us as the Finance minister. Nikola Will this evening, 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Nicolip good evening here that now I see that you 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: were talking about starting to pay down our debt. Are 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: you going to start paying down the debt this budget? 5 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 2: Well, the first step to paying down debt is getting 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: the budget back in balance. Because New Zealand has been 7 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: a deficit spending more than we earn since twenty nineteen, 8 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: and we've previously said that we want to consolidate gradually. 9 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 2: Our goal is to get back into surplus by the 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: twenty seven twenty eight financial year. That goal remains the same. 11 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: Okay, So we get back to surplus twenty seven twenty 12 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: eight and then we start hammering the debt. Is that right? 13 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 2: That's right because once you're in surplus, of course you're 14 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: no longer borrowing to pay for the groceries, and you've 15 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 2: got the ability to pay down debt. Of course, we're 16 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: borrowing every day right now to keep our hospitals, schools 17 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: and police going. But we can't do that forever as 18 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: a country. We need to get the books back in balance. 19 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: So what do you reckon is a good level for 20 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: debt to sit out? 21 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: Well, forty percent is where I would like to get 22 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: it too. I want it tracking down to there. Between 23 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: twenty and forty percent is where the government has said 24 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: is what we're comfortable with. It's now up over that level, 25 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: Treasury say, beyond fifty percent, it becomes a bit of 26 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: a problem if we get an earthquake or a climate 27 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: shock or any kind of big economic event. 28 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, So are you saying that when you 29 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,400 Speaker 1: leave the role as Finance minister one day, forty percent 30 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: will be a good spot to get it too? 31 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I want it tracking down to forty percent. 32 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: Isn't it only twenty two and a half at the moment. 33 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, But it's forecast to keep growing while 34 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: we're still in deficit. So my first goal is to 35 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: get it bending back down to forty and then we 36 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: think it should comfortably sit between twenty and forty. 37 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: Okay, and so what is it going to track it? 38 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: What is it going to reach it its height according 39 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: to forecasts? 40 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm going to tell you at the 41 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: budget Okay, very budget sensitive figure. It needs to be 42 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: forward to dating. 43 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: Then you've got to have a stretch goal, right, you 44 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: can't be doing like forty three percent down to forty percent. 45 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: That's not impressive. 46 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: Well, as I say, the first thing is get your 47 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: books back in balance, and New Zealander is listening to 48 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: this will understand that the first thing to start being 49 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: able to pay down your credit card debt is to 50 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: actually not be spending more than you earn each week. 51 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: And right now New Zealand is spending more every year 52 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: than we are earning, and so we have to get 53 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: that right. And that's the prerequisite of being able to 54 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: pay down debt. And of course labor at every instance 55 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: say the answer to every problem is to spend more, 56 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: and they forget the fact that right now it's all 57 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: on the credit card and that credit card needs to 58 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: be repaid by your kids and my kids. 59 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: Nicola is the reserve bank currently independent of view it is, Well, 60 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: how did you get them to change their mind about 61 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: the capital funding? Once Adrian or left because he was like, no, 62 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to know, I don't want to do 63 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: what you want. He's out the door. Christian and Neil 64 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: quickly decide to do what you want. 65 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: Well, they took that decision independent of me. You'll know 66 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: that there's been a Select Committee inquiry occurring at Parliament 67 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: into the banking sector, and one of the issues that's 68 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: been raised by submitter after submitter is the impact the 69 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: changes in the Reserve Bank's capital adequacy ratios have had 70 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: on lending. I think the Deserve Bank has observed that 71 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 2: public debate and in their own words, they've decided it's 72 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: an appropriate time to check in and see whether the 73 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: decisions they made back in twenty nineteen still stick. 74 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: I would agree with you on this, and I think 75 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: that they are doing the right thing. But you've got 76 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: a problem here, haven't you. Because what's being suggested in 77 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: the media today is that Neil Quigley is not independent 78 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: as the as the chair because he is with Wye 79 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 1: Cutter University. He wants you to give him a medical school. 80 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: Christian Hawksby is not independent is the acting governor because 81 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: he wants the job full time, so he's going to 82 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: do what Both of them have interests in doing what 83 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: you want. There's a perception problem, isn't that. 84 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: Well I just reject that completely, and I think it 85 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: impugnes the integrity of both of those people. 86 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: Well, does it not lead you. 87 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: And take their roles more seriously? 88 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: But does it not lead you to the point where 89 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: it has become obvious that neither of them can hold 90 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: those positions. 91 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: Well, no, I continue to have confidence in the Reserve Bank, 92 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: both the Acting Governor and in the chair of the 93 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: Reserve Bank Board. 94 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: But even outside of this, do they actually deserve those 95 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: positions because Neil Quigley was there while Adrian All was 96 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: there and that thing was just a complete hot mess, 97 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: and so was Christian hawksby right, So they are all 98 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: part of the same kabal. Don't you need a proper 99 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: clean out. 100 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very pleased that we've started by getting the 101 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: funding situation under control and stopping this business of massive 102 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: increases and how much the Reserve Bank ha spens. Yeah, 103 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 2: I think that will go a significant way to change 104 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: in culture. I've also refreshed some of the membership of 105 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 2: both the Monetary Policy Committee and the Board, and I 106 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: have further opportunities to do more of that in the 107 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: next few months. All of those things are relevant, and 108 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: I share your concerns about some of the decisions that 109 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank made when it was in Cohertz with 110 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 2: Grant Robertson and they printed too much money. Yes, and 111 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: I have said previously that I do think is a country. 112 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: We need to review some of that decision. 113 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: But both of these and there at the same time, Nikola, 114 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: can they continue to hold their jobs if they were 115 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: part of that administration? 116 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 2: Well, look, I'm satisfied that the Reserve Bank Board recommended 117 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: to me that Christian Hawksby was the best person for 118 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: that temporary role while they search for a permanent governor, 119 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: and he meets all of the criteria needed. 120 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: Okay, now listen, have you caught up on the fact 121 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: that you guys are still doing co governance? Are you 122 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: aware of this? 123 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think that's quite fair. I think you're 124 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: referring to the situation in the way takes Yukland Council 125 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 2: is currently consulting on a proposed interpretation of a deed 126 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: and look, that's out for consultation. People will have their say. 127 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: None of it, as I understand, it would override existing governance. 128 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: What have I got wrong? 129 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: Statutory? 130 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: What have I got wrong? Calling this co governance? 131 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: Well, as I understand it, the proposal being consulted on 132 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: is not final. First second, I understand it's not intended 133 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: to override the existing governance structures or the statutory powers. 134 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: What government structures and strateutory powers are you talking about. 135 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: Well, I'm talking about the fact that the Council is 136 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: still the democratically elected council, that the Crown is still 137 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: the democratically elective crown. Well, so that will ensure that 138 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: the positions of the Crown and the Council continue to 139 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 2: be represented effectively. Whooped to do? 140 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: It's co governance. It's a committee that makes decisions. Fifty 141 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: percent of it is Tongue's if you know, with fifty 142 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: percent is Crown and Council. That is co governance. 143 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: Well, look to anyone listening, it's out for consultation right now. 144 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: So why are you. 145 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: Doing with this? When you guys are elected. You came 146 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: out against three Waters, you came out against the new RMA, 147 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: and it was implicit in that that you guys were 148 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: going to stop the co governors. So why is the 149 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: same stuff happening under you guys? 150 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: Well, this relates to an Act of Parliament from two 151 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: thousand and eight which already sets up a deed and 152 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 2: Auckland Council are currently consulting on how they want to 153 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 2: give effect to that deed. No decisions have been made. 154 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: People should have their say, are you cool with us? Well? 155 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: To be honest, hither. The first I heard of it 156 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 2: was about half an hour when my press team said 157 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: here that wants to ask you about this, so I 158 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: will be seeking to get more information about it. 159 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: In that case, I feel slightly bad coming it as 160 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: hard at you as I have, But can you go away, 161 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: have a look at it, take some advice, come back 162 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: to me and let me know if your government is 163 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: chill about this, because it would be a huge disappointment 164 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: to me if you were. But while we're on the 165 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: subject of things that we are discovering now, it seems 166 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: to me that what you've given Winston is a picture 167 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: of a train. Is that what's happened? 168 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: As I said, look, I respect Winston's desire for privacy. 169 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: When I gave he told me that birthday, oh he 170 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: told you, okay, yeah, Well then that's absolutely fine. If 171 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: he's revealed that information. Then I gave him a vintage 172 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: poster from the railways from the seventies, and it's pretty cool. 173 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: From his heyday. So the thing is, do you realize 174 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: he hasn't even looked at it yet. 175 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: Well, he looked at it with me in front of him, 176 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: but I don't think it's on display or anything. 177 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: I don't think it's soaked in because he said to me, Oh, 178 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: I was really busy and I was going to go 179 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: out the door, and I haven't actually looked at it. 180 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: So you might have to get him, might have to 181 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: get him back there and looking at again. Do you 182 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean? 183 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 2: Anyway, Well, I'm glad that he's got more important things 184 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: to do than look at training posters. Hey, can it 185 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: be with the world as it is? Right? 186 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: Listen on Winston though, are you guys going to support 187 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: this definition of a woman that he's putting into a 188 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: member's bill. 189 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: Well, look, we haven't taken that bill to caucus yet. 190 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: Our practices that we decide our positions on bills as 191 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: a team when bills are pulled from the ballot. For 192 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: my part, what is a woman While a woman is 193 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: an adult human female. That's pretty clear to me. You'll 194 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: love it. Let live person. So how people then choose 195 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: to self identify, that's over to them. But the law 196 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 2: often needs to be a bit more black and white 197 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: than that, so it'll be just a matter of how 198 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:54,839 Speaker 2: does this actually apply to the law? 199 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: What Pep Nichola, thank you for your time. As always, 200 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: we'll talk next week about co govenance. That's Nicola Willis Fine, 201 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: It's Minister. 202 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. 203 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 204 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio