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Speaker 2: Liam Napier in Johannesburg as we reflect on a pretty
Speaker 2: big win for the All Blacks thirty three seventeen over
Speaker 2: South Africa at Alice Park. Liam, Quite remarkable, wasn't it? So?
Speaker 2: I think I took the All Blacks by three? On
Speaker 2: the pod you I think when South Africa win.
Speaker 3: The box by three?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And here we are, the All Blacks have one
Speaker 2: by seven against South Africa, pretty much against the odds
Speaker 2: as well. We'll dig into it obviously and then get
Speaker 2: through all the facets of the game. But it's always
Speaker 2: so like opening up and you're giving us your top
Speaker 2: line thoughts on what you made of that game.
Speaker 4: It was a night of knights, wasn't an Elliott's There's
Speaker 4: no grander, greater experience in world rugby than going to
Speaker 4: Alice Park sixty two thousand. There might have been three
Speaker 4: thousand New Zealand fans. So what's that fifty nine thousand
Speaker 4: screaming South Africans. It's a sea of green, It's a
Speaker 4: magic occasion. The atmosphere at the hostility like nothing else.
Speaker 4: They fly the passenger planes over the roof damp that
Speaker 4: makes the hairs on the back of your next stand
Speaker 4: up and what for. It's not as simple as it
Speaker 4: to say, fifty minutes the box dominated, but they had
Speaker 4: the All Blacks on the rack. They were one more
Speaker 4: scrum penalty away from potentially inflicting a yellow card a
Speaker 4: penalty try potentially on the All Blacks and probably just
Speaker 4: steamrolling home. And the All Blacks summoned their spirit from
Speaker 4: the dead. They had a scrum from the ages and produced.
Speaker 4: It wasn't a comeback because they were actually in front,
Speaker 4: which was defied belief in many respects at the time,
Speaker 4: but summoned a remarkable last quarter surge to come away
Speaker 4: with a victory that I don't know if anyone predicted
Speaker 4: the All Blacks going Alice Park and winning by thirteen plus.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think anyone did that. It was built
Speaker 2: on immense character from the All Blacks. And you know
Speaker 2: this has been instilled in a very short space of
Speaker 2: time some backbone into this team and it was certainly
Speaker 2: missing last year. Look, we did see aspects of it
Speaker 2: in the previous regime. We saw a good win against
Speaker 2: Ireland in Dublin, we saw a big win against the
Speaker 2: Box at Eden Park last year. But by and large,
Speaker 2: backbone had been missing from this All Blacks team and
Speaker 2: it felt like it had been restored last night at
Speaker 2: Alice Park. And that's not to say they're going to
Speaker 2: go on and win the series, although they put themselves
Speaker 2: in a good position now to do so. It's not
Speaker 2: to say that they're deserving even of the number one
Speaker 2: world ranking, but it was a win in spite of
Speaker 2: almost everything that could go wrong. Really, they managed to
Speaker 2: find a way. And I think that is the most
Speaker 2: compelling thing if you're an All Blacks fan listening to this,
Speaker 2: is that in spite of the stat shed and we're
Speaker 2: digging to some stats shortly, but the stats would suggest
Speaker 2: that the All Blacks had no chance of winning, let
Speaker 2: alone winning by seventeen points, and that's what they managed
Speaker 2: to do. So I think it was a win of
Speaker 2: real conviction for Dave Rinny's coaching methods for his coaching team,
Speaker 2: and I think there was a lot to like, even
Speaker 2: though they weren't even really able to implement the game
Speaker 2: plan that they've talked about about playing at pace and
Speaker 2: doing that sort of thing. Their rock speed was slower
Speaker 2: than South Africa, they weren't able to get you know,
Speaker 2: some players involved in the game as much as they
Speaker 2: would have liked.
Speaker 3: They kicked once more than the Spring Else.
Speaker 2: They didn't have a lot of post contact meters from
Speaker 2: their ball.
Speaker 4: Carriers, no, at least one hundreds less than the Box,
Speaker 4: which was quite evident in the first forty to fifty minutes. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and look, this was a Springbox team that had won
Speaker 4: twelve in the trot, that swept every major test nation
Speaker 4: in the past year. They won thirty one of their
Speaker 4: last thirty four games. They hadn't lost since that Egan
Speaker 4: Park game. They were only rarely missing Sair Calisi, so
Speaker 4: largely at full strength at their spiritual home. Everything stacked
Speaker 4: in their favor. So it was a remarkable win and
Speaker 4: it really is testament to what Dave Rennie has done
Speaker 4: in a little over two months, seven games, he has
Speaker 4: rebuilt the culture of that team. He has really empowered
Speaker 4: the players to take ownership, to have real buy in,
Speaker 4: to strip a lot of things out and empowered this
Speaker 4: team and rebuilt it. You know, a number of selections
Speaker 4: have been questioned, and he said the courage of his convictions.
Speaker 4: He surrounded himself with people he knows and trusts, and
Speaker 4: it's teams don't win in those circumstances unless they're unified
Speaker 4: and they have real internal character. Like you say, you
Speaker 4: don't face that sort of adversity, have your backs to
Speaker 4: the wall and respond like that. If you're not on
Speaker 4: the same page.
Speaker 2: The comparison I'm going to draw and an interesting one.
Speaker 2: I'll be intrigued to get your thoughts because you were there.
Speaker 2: I wasn't on that occasion was twenty twenty two when
Speaker 2: they were beaten the previous week in im Bibella, and
Speaker 2: you know, it felt like it was Ian Foster's last stand.
Speaker 2: Yet the players unified and turned in a performance to
Speaker 2: really be proud of, ultimately saving in Foster's job. There
Speaker 2: were more hiccups to come along the way, but that
Speaker 2: was a better performance I thought last night than the
Speaker 2: one even they won four years ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think Foster's tenure was deeply flawed in
Speaker 4: a lot of ways. And I'm still of the mind
Speaker 4: that he was largely saved by his assistant coaches Jason
Speaker 4: Ryan and Joe Schmidt. But he did have the support
Speaker 4: of the players, and that was very evident when they
Speaker 4: fronted Mark Robinson and basically demanded that he retain his posts.
Speaker 4: So he had the support largely of the senior players
Speaker 4: of that group. And again, you don't have that sort
Speaker 4: of response without that support, without that unity, and Raiser
Speaker 4: didn't have that increasingly, and his regime deteriorated because he
Speaker 4: lost the dressing room because the messages weren't getting.
Speaker 2: Through, game planers flowed.
Speaker 4: That's right, And the stark reality for me, Elliott is
Speaker 4: if you compare the last four All Blacks tests against
Speaker 4: the Box prior to this one, they lead all of those,
Speaker 4: even the one at Wellington, the record loss. They led
Speaker 4: that game at halftime. So all four of those games
Speaker 4: they collapsed to some degree in the second half. And
Speaker 4: that was the crippling element of Razors regime. After halftime,
Speaker 4: when the coaches are delivering the messages, they fell to
Speaker 4: pieces in those three quarters. Well, the All Blacks flipped
Speaker 4: the script and had that last quarter suage. They won
Speaker 4: the second half twenty one points to three, and there's
Speaker 4: many elements to that, but you don't do that if
Speaker 4: you're not aligned with the coaches, if your team's not unified.
Speaker 4: So I think there is comparisons in terms of the
Speaker 4: player support that Fossy had and Renny.
Speaker 2: Big moments in the game. With the fifty five minute
Speaker 2: scrum penalty that New Zealand got and they were under
Speaker 2: their sticks. South Africa would win a scrum penalty, scrum again,
Speaker 2: win a scrump penalty, scrum again, and then the script
Speaker 2: flips and the All Blacks win a scrump penalty under
Speaker 2: immense pressure on their line and with the scrum buckling
Speaker 2: couple of replacement props to so offered a moor out
Speaker 2: there as well, and they turned the tables on South Africa.
Speaker 2: They don't win that, and as you mentioned at the top,
Speaker 2: the game might quickly unravel, but there's no doubt that
Speaker 2: that was the ultimate turning point in the contest for mine.
Speaker 4: That's fifty fifth minute mark. The Springboks had five scrum
Speaker 4: penalties to that point. They their starting front row did
Speaker 4: an absolute number on the All Blacks. Now Nathan the groups.
Speaker 4: Dave Renny revealed that he left the Captain's run early
Speaker 4: on the Friday before the game and spent a large
Speaker 4: time in bed. He was sick, so maybe that had
Speaker 4: some contributing well.
Speaker 2: He also went down with a knee injury as well
Speaker 2: early in the game and then was getting warped by
Speaker 2: wilco Low and then had the head clash.
Speaker 3: With Georsh Lord's so tough hold for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, had roughold twenty four hours for Ethan the group.
Speaker 2: But the All Blacks couldn't lay the scrum platform early.
Speaker 2: You know, that was always mentioned as a key part
Speaker 2: of the game, and they couldn't even get parity until
Speaker 2: later on the game.
Speaker 4: It was a complete demolition job and on both sides
Speaker 4: of the scrum ox Niche was he got the wood
Speaker 4: over Tyrol Lomax. The scrum is back pedaling. I had
Speaker 4: some concerns prior to the match about the bull carrying
Speaker 4: within the All Black pack. I think that came to
Speaker 4: fruition and I think they did miss Patrick two Polow too,
Speaker 4: because along with the replacement front row, I think to
Speaker 4: perv going into Locke from blind sides did help shore
Speaker 4: up that scrum a wee bit because George Bauer came
Speaker 4: on and went into Lock and that did seem to
Speaker 4: make a difference. And also ox Niche was replaced the
Speaker 4: spring box loose head prop at the forty fifth minute mark,
Speaker 4: so I think if he stays on the field, I
Speaker 4: don't know how much gas he's got left in the
Speaker 4: tank because he was under an injury cloud pre match,
Speaker 4: but if he's on that field, I don't know. The
Speaker 4: All Blacks won that scrump penalty on their own line,
Speaker 4: but he's one of the world's best scrummages. So there's
Speaker 4: lots of different moments with the moments, aren't there. But
Speaker 4: the starting box front row demolitian job, and you're right
Speaker 4: that the All Blacks front row, and I think George
Speaker 4: Bauer got a lot of credit.
Speaker 3: I suffer on Moore.
Speaker 4: Was a tank and Fletcher newl big performance, but to
Speaker 4: going into Locke as well and ox Niche coming off,
Speaker 4: I think they were big elements in the remarkable flip
Speaker 4: of that dynamic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite remarkable because we didn't get a scrum
Speaker 2: until the fifteen minute Lark, so it was a long
Speaker 2: way for the first scrum. And you look at the stats,
Speaker 2: the All Blacks fit fifteen stafage is four, so a
Speaker 2: lot of the All Blacks going back pedling was on
Speaker 2: their own ball.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that also speaks to the spring Box wasteful
Speaker 4: of opportunities. They committed twin twenty three turnovers and Dave
Speaker 4: Reni spoke a lot in there about the Box being
Speaker 4: the best team at converting and the twenty two well
Speaker 4: they flipped that script as well, didn't they.
Speaker 2: The Blacks had nine entries to South Africa's ten and
Speaker 2: leaving with average of three point six points to zero
Speaker 2: point seven.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think the Box average five point five
Speaker 4: points per inch generally so and all Bcks defense, yes,
Speaker 4: a massive scrambling defense. Look, I thought Jordi Barrett, he
Speaker 4: was my man of the match, made fifteen tackles, he
Speaker 4: got five turnovers. He was the guy who dislodged the
Speaker 4: ball from Malcolm Marx. If the Box score there, maybe
Speaker 4: it's a different game as well that they had the
Speaker 4: heat on. He loses the ball just out and there
Speaker 4: was at least one other time when Jordi Barrett strips
Speaker 4: the ball in contact.
Speaker 3: He was a massive effort.
Speaker 2: It was. It was huge. Let's stick into some of
Speaker 2: the other key moments of the game. The All Blacks
Speaker 2: heading the front early with the will Jordan Trith or
Speaker 2: Cam Reguard. Maybe it was best match. He's really kicking wise,
Speaker 2: but I thought his passing was really really good. Really
Speaker 2: Crisp just probably failed. Was one game one moment where
Speaker 2: he got the All Blacks out of a bit of
Speaker 2: trouble on their own line and the food spell got
Speaker 2: that much about the forty five meter mark. But what
Speaker 2: Rygud was able to do with those bullet passes on
Speaker 2: either flag and they used the short side a lot
Speaker 2: in that game, I thought was really really good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I thought Regard was excellent, to be honest. His
Speaker 4: kicking game was good. He tried to snipe a couple
Speaker 4: of times, and his booming boot definitely helped. And I
Speaker 4: thought the All Blex kicking game in general increasingly got better.
Speaker 4: You had Roy guards, you had Quinta pile that telling
Speaker 4: fifty twenty two. Jeordi Barrett put one in late as well,
Speaker 4: so I thought they varied their game well. And yeah,
Speaker 4: with Roy guards, the Alblecks had a lot of success
Speaker 4: on the edge they went to Tupuvai when he was
Speaker 4: at blindside early on the on the edges and number
Speaker 4: of times he got that off float away for Josh Morby.
Speaker 4: But that's really where they made their meters. We mentioned
Speaker 4: the post contact meters and the lack of them, and
Speaker 4: I think that speaks to the lack of ball carriers
Speaker 4: in the pack. The line speed and the gag tackling
Speaker 4: from the Box was very effective and it was largely
Speaker 4: bill Black's backs that made the meters or certainly wider
Speaker 4: out that bill backs couldn't make a lot of headway
Speaker 4: through the middle, so I think that's something they needed
Speaker 4: to address. And also the high ball the spring Box
Speaker 4: used kept from the base a lot with Grant Williams
Speaker 4: if they've been holland charged them down. Once Sasha gotten
Speaker 4: up and under, he regathered it. So the Box certainly
Speaker 4: won the aerial battle they did.
Speaker 2: And again this goes in spite of everything, the hill
Speaker 2: Blacks were able to find a way the aerial battle.
Speaker 2: They couldn't contain it. Obviously, they're using the wingers going
Speaker 2: backwards and a couple occasions they had success with that,
Speaker 2: but by and large, so I forgot we were able
Speaker 2: to them where they wanted to. But I thought South
Speaker 2: Africa were rather limited in their attack and Yas Visa
Speaker 2: carried hard. I think he made the most meters in
Speaker 2: the game quite comfortably. Easter Hays and I thought carried
Speaker 2: strongly as well Peter Steph on occasion. But it just
Speaker 2: painted the difference, I guess between the two teams. The
Speaker 2: All Blacks look for a couple of strong carries and
Speaker 2: then looked to send it wide or find it a
Speaker 2: midfield overlap or a mismatch, yeah, or to kick or
Speaker 2: to kick, whereas South Africa were just looking to bash
Speaker 2: the line and then they had they had success with that,
Speaker 2: but then they got to a point and they weren't
Speaker 2: really able to go any further, didn't have the variations
Speaker 2: or the ability to back up quickly and use Visa
Speaker 2: again or whatever it might have been to really trouble
Speaker 2: the All Blacks.
Speaker 4: Well, their strength was there r Kelly's Hill, their their
Speaker 4: the ego took over. Just going to the scrum and
Speaker 4: just going to the air is not going to be
Speaker 4: enough five tries to one, like, you have to do more,
Speaker 4: And I think that painted a stark reality. We talked
Speaker 4: about those entries into the twenty two. Will just use
Speaker 4: the ball a little bit more, do something different, change
Speaker 4: it up. One of the South African Juno has mentioned
Speaker 4: to me after the game that referees very rarely world
Speaker 4: ward five six five six penalties for the same offense.
Speaker 4: And the All Blacks won that moment. But the spring
Speaker 4: Box need more variety and what they did they did
Speaker 4: exceptionally well, but it was limited. As you said, it
Speaker 4: was conservative as predictable. They need to throw something else
Speaker 4: at the All Blacks.
Speaker 2: Will they let Tony Brown off the chaining for this week?
Speaker 2: Will be able to do anything?
Speaker 4: Why bother having him in the coaching him? If you're
Speaker 4: not going to use him, he's put in a box.
Speaker 4: He's That was pure Russy And it was the same
Speaker 4: at Eden Park and their defeat there. That was a
Speaker 4: very old conservative team and performance. And then the next
Speaker 4: week I heard that that team that they selected and
Speaker 4: they named it on the Monday. Russy's just gone in
Speaker 4: and said we're naming this team and the assistant coaches
Speaker 4: were like, what He's completely changed the script. But the
Speaker 4: way they played certainly had a lot more Tony Ball
Speaker 4: in it that didn't it. And so you've got him
Speaker 4: in the mix. He's one of the best attacking mines
Speaker 4: in the game. And you've got some talent there. You've
Speaker 4: got Sasha, You've got Villains and Colby, Grant Williams, all
Speaker 4: these players, but you're not utilizing them well.
Speaker 2: Films tore the All Blacks to shreds last year in Wellington.
Speaker 2: He was excellent and played some had some wonderful lines
Speaker 2: that the All Blacks just couldn't handle, but didn't feel
Speaker 2: like he had any real opportunities in that game to
Speaker 2: speak of. He was well contained, but also didn't get
Speaker 2: any chances really to show what he can do.
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe the box are worried about their fitness and conditioning.
Speaker 4: I don't think they can live with the All Blacks,
Speaker 4: but they can play a little bit more without playing
Speaker 4: too much.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And that kind of goes back to the
Speaker 2: point around Little Black surging in the fine quarter is
Speaker 2: that apart from the reserve props and from the back
Speaker 2: up front row, there was no standout performance from the reserves.
Speaker 2: It was all starters that were able to find their
Speaker 2: way through in that last twenty minutes and have some
Speaker 2: big moments. And yeah, this wasn't the bombs. The All
Speaker 2: Blacks bomb squad of the reserves lifting them up. It
Speaker 2: was very much the starters, you know, being able to
Speaker 2: roll over the top of the South African bomb squad
Speaker 2: in the closing stages.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's right.
Speaker 4: They did nullify the Box bomb squad and that replacement
Speaker 4: front row made a big impact. But three of the
Speaker 4: All Black's bench, Kyle Preston, Antonina Brown and Peter Luckeye
Speaker 4: were used for five minutes, so that speaks to your point.
Speaker 4: This wasn't the All Black's Bench on mass surging over
Speaker 4: the top. And again that speaks to the All Blacks
Speaker 4: formulating their own game plan, not meeting fire with fire,
Speaker 4: not having to have their own bomb squad per se,
Speaker 4: but finding energy and finding ways to counter what the
Speaker 4: Box are going to bring, particularly in that final quarter.
Speaker 4: But one swallow doesn't make a summer. And I think
Speaker 4: Russy got his bench elections wrong. He I think the
Speaker 4: lack of an outside back was exposed. They lost one
Speaker 4: of their wingers early in the ninth minute and Kolbe
Speaker 4: went off late. Esta Hasan had already been used, Crell
Speaker 4: had to go to the wing. There was a lot
Speaker 4: of moving parts there and the composition of their front rowers.
Speaker 4: I think they had a lot of traditional tight heads.
Speaker 4: The hooker ended up playing reserve, howker ended up playing prop.
Speaker 4: So I think we can expect big changes both in
Speaker 4: personnel and particularly with the composition of that bench because
Speaker 4: the bomb scored. Look, it's a fundamental part of their DNA.
Speaker 4: It's such a source of pride. They've come back and
Speaker 4: won so many games. You even think to the twenty
Speaker 4: twenty three World Cup, they won three successive knockout matches
Speaker 4: by one point, and that speaks to their ability to
Speaker 4: rise above pressure. Well, they floundered. Look at the way
Speaker 4: the game ended. They were panicking, they got two yellow cards,
Speaker 4: they shot the bed.
Speaker 2: Yeah well yeah. And the All Blacks, on the other hand,
Speaker 2: were pretty calm and confident that they could close the
Speaker 2: game out if they got down the right end of
Speaker 2: the field. And sure enough, that ten point ly ballooned
Speaker 2: out to a seventeen point advantage by the end of
Speaker 2: the game. And you know, it's probably typified by that
Speaker 2: couple of moments where the referee looks at the TMO
Speaker 2: intervenes and looks at the Ardie Savier. He contact on
Speaker 2: visa is cleared by Matthew Carley and then I'm not
Speaker 2: sure how this wasn't spotted at the time by Armasha
Speaker 2: Kelly on the touch line all Carli himself, but Carl
Speaker 2: Dixon on the far touch spotted it that maybe they
Speaker 2: should look at Canroygar being taken.
Speaker 3: Off the ball clear sinacorn in front.
Speaker 2: And so that's a yellow card. And then a minute
Speaker 2: passes knockdown by Rayanak and he goes in the burn.
Speaker 2: It's fifteen on thirty and the All Blacks close it
Speaker 2: out from there, and that was them. Yeah, you can't
Speaker 2: bank on yellow cards, but it was them trusting that
Speaker 2: at the right areas of the ground they'll come away
Speaker 2: with the points and will Jordan after almost being giving
Speaker 2: it to Creole and passing the ball back to curling
Speaker 2: Butter and his touch. Then they went back and score
Speaker 2: the next time to really close it out. But they
Speaker 2: trusted that they if they played it right areas of
Speaker 2: the park, would be able to lock the game down.
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, we probably need to eat a bit of
Speaker 4: humble pie. We were reasonably critical or worried about Matthew Carley.
Speaker 4: He's had a pension for cards. He's quite pedantic and
Speaker 4: it's very easy to say, in the context of an
Speaker 4: all Black win. But how refreshing was it to see
Speaker 4: him just tell the t motor bugger off, yeah and
Speaker 4: make his own mind up.
Speaker 3: I love that And he was right.
Speaker 4: The contact with Ardie Severe was body first and you
Speaker 4: can see it with the head coming forward. So I
Speaker 4: think he got that decision one hundred percent correct. And
Speaker 4: there was one earlier as involving look.
Speaker 2: Jacob jameson clearing out. I can't remember it was Visa
Speaker 2: or Easter Hazing off the top of my head, but.
Speaker 3: That one was probably a bit marginal.
Speaker 2: Well yes, but I think again that was the right
Speaker 2: cause no foul played there.
Speaker 3: It wasn't it was.
Speaker 2: It was in the actor clearing out. It wasn't maliciously
Speaker 2: taking the player off the ball, and so there's got
Speaker 2: to be a bit of leeway, and I think Matthew
Speaker 2: Carlely applied it that it was a It's probably not
Speaker 2: the right tun for the incident, but a rugby incident
Speaker 2: that Jacobson had no intent of smashing him off the ball.
Speaker 2: Visa was in it. I think it was Visa. I
Speaker 2: might be completely wrong, but you know it was in
Speaker 2: the actor clearing out and had reason to believe that
Speaker 2: he was in the way, So I have no issue
Speaker 2: with it, and it was it was refreshing to hear
Speaker 2: Matthew Carly overall the TMO and it just speaks. And
Speaker 2: this got any comment on it is that these tmos
Speaker 2: do not have a feel for the game.
Speaker 4: Well, you've made the point previously that they're not experienced.
Speaker 2: Reference how many you know, how many tests between Carli
Speaker 2: Dixon and Amisha Kelly would they have versus Adamson and
Speaker 2: yet he rides roughshot over the game. I cannot forigure
Speaker 2: that tried to So credits to Matthew Carli. I thought
Speaker 2: he was excellent. And again I've said this before with
Speaker 2: the test series, the ideal if he was referring all four.
Speaker 3: Games, Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Also, I don't think this is an element, but I'm
Speaker 4: just gonna throw it out there. If you're a referee
Speaker 4: and one team is highly critical of you in public
Speaker 4: throughout the week or attempting to put pressure on you
Speaker 4: and the other it goes out of their way to
Speaker 4: sidestep those issues.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's a that's a matter of perspective, because
Speaker 2: from South Africa's perspective, the all Blacks have thrown out
Speaker 2: the time wasting thing in the media. They've put it
Speaker 2: out there, so spective is in the eye of the beholder, really.
Speaker 3: Yes, maybe, But.
Speaker 4: Look, I think it's very clear that one them put
Speaker 4: a lot of avert pressure on the officials, from rolling
Speaker 4: out a formal tests referee to complaining about the breakdown
Speaker 4: and their all defense and it didn't work for them,
Speaker 4: which is great. So, and I think the other element,
Speaker 4: even if you're a one eyebox supporter, you can't sit
Speaker 4: there on any level possible and say that the officials
Speaker 4: determine the outcome of that game.
Speaker 2: No, you can't. I think it was clear that the
Speaker 2: All Blacks deserve the victory by the end, even if
Speaker 2: they perhaps, yeah, we're cycling backwards at a rate of
Speaker 2: knots for the first fifty five minutes, it's certainly at
Speaker 2: that set piece.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and look, Da've already made the point that the
Speaker 4: final score line does not reflect that the nature of
Speaker 4: the contests, and I fully agree with that. Yeah, yep,
Speaker 4: they won by seventeen points, but that's grum moments, two
Speaker 4: yellow cards. They had the roll on and it can
Speaker 4: happen at altitudes. Just for the record, that was Your
Speaker 4: Black's biggest win at Alice Park in history. They have
Speaker 4: now won four of their last six games there. That
Speaker 4: eclipse Ian Foster's saving victory. It's also the heaviest defeat
Speaker 4: of the Russier Rassmus era.
Speaker 3: So that will sting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well at big time, and look, we know the
Speaker 2: spring box will hit back in Cape count I don't
Speaker 2: know absolutely which way Russi will go with the selections. When
Speaker 2: you'll name his team, he'll begin it what kind of
Speaker 2: bench he goes for. But they've got the depth that
Speaker 2: they can maybe not change their attack plan necessarily. Although yeah,
Speaker 2: as we go, as a pointed earlier, maybe Tony Brown
Speaker 2: gets left off the lit off the leash a little
Speaker 2: bit this week, but they can make changes. I think
Speaker 2: next week they'll try and apply school will pressure, but
Speaker 2: more on the All Blacks, whether it's drop goals, you know,
Speaker 2: if they can get some scrum dominance. I don't know
Speaker 2: that they'll keep scrummaging. I think they'll just try and
Speaker 2: bank threes. Yeah, I think next time it might be
Speaker 2: win a scrump penalty, take the shot, win a scrump panality,
Speaker 2: take the shot.
Speaker 4: Both teams turned down at least I think it was
Speaker 4: three shots each in the first half.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they did so. Yeah, the spring box might
Speaker 2: double down and it may work for them in Cape jan.
Speaker 2: Where does this rank though, in terms of the All
Speaker 2: Blacks recent history in the last say decade or so,
Speaker 2: where does this win rank.
Speaker 4: It's a great question. I think it's their biggest one
Speaker 4: since their last at Alice Park, and you know that
Speaker 4: was a monumental backs to the wall upset triumph and
Speaker 4: this is on the same level the box back to
Speaker 4: back World Cup champions that their records, their status, the
Speaker 4: level of arrogance amongst their supporters generally, their their their
Speaker 4: strength and depth, Rusty Erasmus's influence over world rugby. That
Speaker 4: the minimal time that Dave Rennie's had with this team,
Speaker 4: you know, they were up against it by every metric
Speaker 4: and they were dead and buried, but certainly seem that
Speaker 4: way prior to that scre so the defiance, the courage,
Speaker 4: the composure to pull that out.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 4: Superb and it like to be there to witness it
Speaker 4: as pretty special.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was great. The flyover and the harker
Speaker 2: and the anthems and everything like that. You know, as
Speaker 2: a as an outsider and a place like that pretty
Speaker 2: special to be there for occasion like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and to see the all bleckx linger on the
Speaker 4: pitch and enjoy the moment and to applaud their fans.
Speaker 4: You know, there was some decent pockets of them scattered
Speaker 4: around Alice Park. Look, those are memories I think as
Speaker 4: players and coaches and the supporters that were there that
Speaker 4: they'll they'll hold on to for a lifetime.
Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, it probably sits maybe just behind, but
Speaker 2: certainly pretty close to the win over Ireland in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three the World Cup quarter final, because they had
Speaker 2: to summon everything to win that game and what it meant.
Speaker 4: Yeah, will cut probably elevates that doesn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does, but again that was on neutral territory
Speaker 2: in France. Was in the spring Blocks backyard to come
Speaker 2: over and do it. So look, as we wrap up
Speaker 2: our game conversation, where does this leave the All Blacks
Speaker 2: in the context of the series? One went on the
Speaker 2: board out of four really look and look Russy Rasmus
Speaker 2: sort of pointed out even before the game a couple
Speaker 2: of days before that the third game is going to
Speaker 2: be the most important, and they've done it before. They
Speaker 2: come from behind an a lion series. They dropped games
Speaker 2: at twenty nineteen to twenty three World Cups and went
Speaker 2: away with winning it. So they know their way to
Speaker 2: doing it. But where does it leave the All Blacks.
Speaker 2: I guess in the context of the series, do you think.
Speaker 4: Makes I think they would take a lot of heart,
Speaker 4: a lot of confidence from that, and to not there's
Speaker 4: so much more that they can improve on that. There
Speaker 4: wasn't a great performance necessarily, but it was great resolve.
Speaker 4: And you know, you look at the scrum, you look
Speaker 4: at the high ball, you look at the lack of
Speaker 4: the post content meters and look at the discipline. They
Speaker 4: con seeded fourteen penalties and to still win in that
Speaker 4: circumstance and to have so much more you can prove improve,
Speaker 4: I think it leaves them in a great position. And look,
Speaker 4: I just love what Rennie's doing and I think it
Speaker 4: speaks to his experience. He's so level headed. Straight after
Speaker 4: the games. It's one one we're wary of the response,
Speaker 4: and we've seen the spring Box respond. Let's not underestimate
Speaker 4: them as well. We've seen them lose Eden Park and
Speaker 4: put a record score on the All Blacks. The following week.
Speaker 4: We've seen them lose World Cup Games, pull matches, We've
Speaker 4: seen them lose the opening British and Larrish Lions Test
Speaker 4: and come back. So they've been in this situation before,
Speaker 4: but it does feel a little bit different now with
Speaker 4: Reny there and he's not intimidated by Russy, He's happy
Speaker 4: to goad him in a little bit of a way.
Speaker 4: He's calm, he's composed, and that's reflected throughout the team.
Speaker 4: So and I didn't tip them per se, but I
Speaker 4: do have a lot of faith in and what he's
Speaker 4: building in such a short space assign So yeah, they're
Speaker 4: in a great spot. Ironically, the All Blacks have a
Speaker 4: fantastic record at Alice Park. I don't know the record
Speaker 4: off the top of my head, but for all their
Speaker 4: supporting Cape Town, that doesn't tend to translate from memory there.
Speaker 4: And undoubtedly, look, the Box will will win by any
Speaker 4: means possible. This is going to be I don't like
Speaker 4: using the term warfare or battle as such, but man,
Speaker 4: they're going to come for the All Blacks there physically
Speaker 4: and do whatever it takes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, the stage is set for the second teast
Speaker 2: of the series, but before that we have the matter
Speaker 2: of a Lions game to get to, so click break.
Speaker 4: It's going to be quite the contrast, isn't it Going
Speaker 4: back to Alice Park with five thousand people?
Speaker 2: Yep, Quick one on Tuesday night at seven o'clock Quick Break.
Speaker 2: We'll come back and analyze the team name for the
Speaker 2: Lions game after this on Rugby Directs.
Speaker 1: Rugby Diregged with Elliott Smith and Leam Navier powered by
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Speaker 2: You're back on Rugby Directs. The Lions team all black
Speaker 2: center face the Lions has been named Liam and I
Speaker 2: don't know where he caught surprises or not, because we
Speaker 2: kind of expected most of these players to be there.
Speaker 2: Maybe a mix of players on the bench that maybe
Speaker 2: we didn't think or vice versa. In the starting side.
Speaker 2: Are Moong at ten for the first time since the
Speaker 2: World Cup Finals, Law making his first all Black start.
Speaker 2: What stands out to you from that team named by
Speaker 2: Dave Rennie.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one Mwanga. As you said, he's the
Speaker 4: main talking point, isn't it. I think it's a challenging
Speaker 4: week for the All Blacks. I think the toughest of
Speaker 4: the tour to come off a test and have to
Speaker 4: get straight into another midweek game and for the coaches
Speaker 4: and the players there's certainly no respite.
Speaker 3: But ritchiem Wonga.
Speaker 4: Look, we haven't seen him in All Black jersey since
Speaker 4: twenty three World Cup Final. It's been so much chatter,
Speaker 4: so much talk about him coming home. Would he come home?
Speaker 4: Then he did, would he be available? When was he
Speaker 4: going to be available? We've talked a lot about it
Speaker 4: on the podcast. So to see him back and in
Speaker 4: the number ten jersey, it's going to generate a lot
Speaker 4: of interest.
Speaker 2: It is and almost in a way that's quite good
Speaker 2: to have some interest like that in the game and
Speaker 2: the fact that he's starting so we'll get big minutes
Speaker 2: you would think for the All Blacks Josh Jacob to
Speaker 2: come off the bench. So looking forward to seeing what
Speaker 2: he is able to do. Dave when he spoke to
Speaker 2: media this afternoon and said he's a better player than
Speaker 2: when he left New Zealand, Richie Wonger certainly says the same,
Speaker 2: and he spoke of his desire to with a little
Speaker 2: bit of unfinished business, I guess in the Black Jersey
Speaker 2: to come back and play for them. Again, So look,
Speaker 2: this is a game where there's not a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't think coming into it for someone like Richie
Speaker 2: Wonger to take a step back into an international rugby.
Speaker 4: No, it's an ideal scenario. And he talked about it today,
Speaker 4: didn't he. That it's perhaps been a bit of a
Speaker 4: blessing in terms of the way he's come back from Japan,
Speaker 4: going back home, having a couple of games for Canterbury
Speaker 4: out of the spotlight to a degree, and then coming
Speaker 4: back in and also not having a lot of pressure
Speaker 4: on him in this all black environments. He hasn't been
Speaker 4: thrust straight into the test site. And look, he's very
Speaker 4: aware of where he sits in the picking, wasn't He
Speaker 4: talked today about helping room and love and biding his
Speaker 4: time being patients, that he's still obviously a competitor and
Speaker 4: wants to be the best, but sort of knows his
Speaker 4: place for now and that can change quickly form an
Speaker 4: injury can change in the space of seven days in
Speaker 4: one match.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's going to be really interesting.
Speaker 4: This is his first step, isn't it in terms of
Speaker 4: trying to I guess reclaim that number ten. Jersey also
Speaker 4: pretty intrigued to see tav Tavanawa get a start at twelve.
Speaker 4: We haven't seen enough of them, or a lot of
Speaker 4: them in the all black environment, so it's one thing
Speaker 4: to steamroll play off the bench for ten minutes, but
Speaker 4: to start, we'll be intriguing to see how he goes.
Speaker 3: You mentioned tay Lower there.
Speaker 4: I think there's plenty of the game for those outside backs,
Speaker 4: for Young and North, for and Ammoni in the Nardaua
Speaker 4: and one of those locks Sam Dowry picture two below two.
Speaker 4: Pretty down on troops there. They're going to have to
Speaker 4: back up for the Test side, don't they.
Speaker 2: Well, maybe even both of them might have to back
Speaker 2: up on the weekend, depending on what they think around that.
Speaker 2: And Dave Ronie said, obviously they could move to Bova
Speaker 2: back into the second row potentially this week. That might
Speaker 2: be an option that they look at for this Test match.
Speaker 2: That may of course look to keep him at six.
Speaker 2: But I suspect that one well you have obviously one
Speaker 2: when he needed, but maybe even both potentially to play
Speaker 2: the spring box. So likely they'll only get forty minutes
Speaker 2: and the other one off of thing a Farsig and
Speaker 2: Jamie Hannah, who are currently midyear Judiland around breakfast time
Speaker 2: tomorrow into South Africa. Not even sure if they know
Speaker 2: they're playing as but they're on the plane and we'll
Speaker 2: have to back up around you know, thirty six hours
Speaker 2: or thereabouts after their land in South Africa, which is
Speaker 2: quite remarkable as.
Speaker 4: A classical retail that Rennie shared about. He sent Jamie
Speaker 4: hannerh some messages, couldn't get hold of him, had to
Speaker 4: go get someone to bang on his door because they
Speaker 4: had to be on a flight in four hours.
Speaker 3: So things move pretty quickly. I think you're right.
Speaker 4: I think Patrick Typoloto will be the one that they'll
Speaker 4: pull early. You get Jamie Henner on probably at halftime,
Speaker 4: and maybe toy Bloto comes off the bench or maybe
Speaker 4: he even starts that second test. So yeah, there's a
Speaker 4: bit of a moving feces in terms of players coming
Speaker 4: and going.
Speaker 2: This tour is highly attritional, it is, and the other
Speaker 2: one is Anton Signa as well. Look by maybe at
Speaker 2: the time this is uploader we might have some more
Speaker 2: news on that front. Dave Rennie couldn't give too much
Speaker 2: away when we spoke to him a short time ago
Speaker 2: around the ankle inflammation arthritis issue that he developed around
Speaker 2: about twenty four hours out from the first test, certainly
Speaker 2: all out of the second test, but see it had
Speaker 2: been in hospital, So we'll wait and see. Obviously hoping
Speaker 2: it's the best for Anton. Real shame because after playing
Speaker 2: so well against the balls, you know, it felt like
Speaker 2: test rugby, he was about to maybe really announce himself
Speaker 2: over this series. And yeah, it doesn't sound particularly good.
Speaker 4: That's a great shame, and for him as much as
Speaker 4: anyone else, isn't it that you know, he would have
Speaker 4: been desperate to play at Alice Park. Imagine that being
Speaker 4: within reach and then having that pool from your grasp.
Speaker 4: It would be pretty devastated. And to test yourself against
Speaker 4: the world champions, to be involved in this once in
Speaker 4: a lifetime series, Yeah, very cruel scenario having played those
Speaker 4: tool games and he said an amazing rise having been
Speaker 4: the Blues Prayer player of the year. Yeah, great against
Speaker 4: the Balls player of the match and yeah, great shame
Speaker 4: because it does not sound good.
Speaker 2: No, we'll wait and see on that front. Interestingly, on
Speaker 2: the Anton signet issue, we had a message into the
Speaker 2: podcast or you did, Liam around that and asking why
Speaker 2: Simon Parker had been called in. This was from James,
Speaker 2: who said high, Liam, interested if you can address on
Speaker 2: your Rugby Direct podcast the selection of Parker over so
Speaker 2: Titi on the bench and then using him as replacement.
Speaker 2: Well before Lucky he did well, but based on past elections,
Speaker 2: this was quite a surprise. Cheers James. Well, Liam, you
Speaker 2: went straight to the source Reni and put that to
Speaker 2: him a short time ago.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question because we were debate and
Speaker 4: it was a surprise. Thoughts Satti would have been in
Speaker 4: that mix. Rennie talked to it today. He said that
Speaker 4: they wanted an extra height in the line out and
Speaker 4: they rate Simon Parker's defensive ability, his ability to clean
Speaker 4: bodies at the ruck. He said he was very good
Speaker 4: and the defensive more and the scenario played out perfectly
Speaker 4: for them because they did lose a blindside early. Well
Speaker 4: A Locke and Josh Lord Tovice switched to Locke and
Speaker 4: that propel Parker on late in the second half. Renny
Speaker 4: talked about the fact that maybe if you're on top
Speaker 4: and you wanted an athlete, then Cities he would have
Speaker 4: been better in the final twenty minutes, but they felt
Speaker 4: they had that basis covered with Lakeye. So yeah, lots
Speaker 4: of scenarios, but it was certainly something that we were
Speaker 4: debating over here, so a great question.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks ver much. You can get in touch with
Speaker 2: us Rugby Directed News Talk ZB dot co dot Nz
Speaker 2: producer Marks in charge to the mailbag so he can
Speaker 2: forward them on and we'll try to answer your questions
Speaker 2: where and when we can hear on the podcast. But
Speaker 2: that'll about do us for the latest edition of Rugby
Speaker 2: Direct plenty to get stuck into enjoy your All Blacks
Speaker 2: Lions game. We will reflect on that on the pod
Speaker 2: come Thursday local time when we have our teams for
Speaker 2: the second test in Cape Town, the Rugby's greatest rivalry
Speaker 2: Tour rolls on, napes, rages on, rages on even Thanks
Speaker 2: to Mark Cally for producing, and of course to our
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