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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Pine

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Speaker 1: from Newstalks edb.

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Speaker 2: SO for twenty twenty six is all but upon us

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Speaker 2: and the season will look a little bit different thanks

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Speaker 2: to some new law changes which were announced in the

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Speaker 2: week past. Let's find out more about them, bringing Super

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Speaker 2: Rugby Pacific CEO Jack Measley. Jack, thanks for joining us

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Speaker 2: before we look at these specific law changes. What was

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Speaker 2: the general intent of making any tweaks at all?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what we've seen over the past couple

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Speaker 3: of years, pining and thanks for having me mate, great

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Speaker 3: to catch up. You know, we've seen a dramatic improvement

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Speaker 3: in the type of rugby that Super Rugby is presenting

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Speaker 3: each year. We had a wonderful season last year where

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Speaker 3: the match officials and the law mods that we've bought

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Speaker 3: in last year in the last couple of years really

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Speaker 3: came together to deliver a great product. And our commitment

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Speaker 3: to our fans is that we will always listen to

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Speaker 3: fans and look for way to continue to improve the product.

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Speaker 3: So the intent is that we play the best rugby

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Speaker 3: in the world in Super Rugby Pacific, and you know

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Speaker 3: we're going to continue to look for ways to do that, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, I'm going to go through some of these changes

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Speaker 2: and get you to expand on some of them, if

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Speaker 2: that's okay. Firstly, no longer mandatory for the reef to

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Speaker 2: issue a yellow or red card to a player on

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Speaker 2: the defending team when the ref awards a penalty try.

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Speaker 2: What's the intent here?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know in that situation what happens, you know,

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Speaker 3: and not The penalty tries are common. But what happens

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Speaker 3: here is if there is a penalty try, our match

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Speaker 3: officials have to award not only the penalty try but

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Speaker 3: also a yellow card under the current laws. Now, for

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Speaker 3: some infringements, we think that penalty is too significant and

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Speaker 3: too bigger, too bigger penalty for the defensive team. So

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Speaker 3: align with our overall approach to give our match officials,

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Speaker 3: you know, more power to make common sense decisions. We

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Speaker 3: want to hand that back to them to go, well

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Speaker 3: is it? What really is that improvement really worth a

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Speaker 3: penalty dry and the yellow card or just the penalty dry?

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Speaker 2: Right, Accidental offsides and teams delaying playing the ball away

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Speaker 2: from a ruck are going to result in free kicks

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Speaker 2: rather than scrums. This is this has generated a bit

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Speaker 2: of conversation. Are you trying to depower scrums and limit

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Speaker 2: the effectiveness of set PC here or no?

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Speaker 3: No, I mean you know what what fans have told

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Speaker 3: us is significant delays in the game. You know, give

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Speaker 3: them excuses to turn off. They want they want to

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Speaker 3: see the game sped up. What we are not trying

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Speaker 3: to do is we want we want, we want comes

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Speaker 3: to be great. But what we're finding is, you know,

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Speaker 3: when the infringement sometimes is going from a delay into

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Speaker 3: another per set piece, you know, we're just creating extended delay.

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Speaker 3: So you know, also if you think about you know

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Speaker 3: the instance where a nine might be holding the ball

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Speaker 3: at the base of a ruck, setting themselves up for

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Speaker 3: a caterpillar. Right now, our refs are saying use it

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Speaker 3: and counting, counting down the five seconds. But the infringement

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Speaker 3: last year and through World Rugby's eyes is oh, well,

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Speaker 3: that will then go to a scrum. Now our refs,

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Speaker 3: you know that that is another lengthy delay in the game,

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Speaker 3: and so they're less likely to put the pressure on

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Speaker 3: the nine and blow the whistle. Now we want that

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Speaker 3: ball to be clear, we want it to be clear.

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Speaker 3: Weird click, So in moving that infringement from a scrum

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Speaker 3: to so kick it gives our match officials the power

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Speaker 3: to come out harder on those Nines who are potentially

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Speaker 3: wasting time with the ball.

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Speaker 2: At the base and a similar part of the game,

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Speaker 2: after the referees call use it at a ruck, no

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Speaker 2: additional players from the team and possession can join the ruck.

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Speaker 2: So just about that one.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So once the ball is there, to be clear,

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Speaker 3: our match officials will say use it. The Nins have

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Speaker 3: five seconds to use it. But what we've said is

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Speaker 3: as soon as they say use it, what we what

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Speaker 3: we are not allowing is players to come in and

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Speaker 3: join an extended caterpillar. So again this is just we

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Speaker 3: want great contest. We want to put pressure on our

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Speaker 3: players and to execute their skills well. And so you

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Speaker 3: know what we're what you want see is you know,

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Speaker 3: these guys dawdling in and putting a three or four

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Speaker 3: man caterpillar in after the rep said use it. All right.

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Speaker 2: The next one I want to ask you about is

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Speaker 2: the fact that teams can now pass the ball back

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Speaker 2: into their own half before kicking a fifty twenty two. Previously,

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Speaker 2: of course you have to already be there. So what's

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Speaker 2: the intent behind this one?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is probably the one that's you know,

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Speaker 3: the intent behind this may be a little harder to

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Speaker 3: follow for everyone. The intent here is to create greater

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Speaker 3: questions for the defensive team. So in doing this, what

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Speaker 3: we think will happen is wingers are going to have

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Speaker 3: to make a choice are they going to be out

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Speaker 3: flat or are they going to be back protecting from

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Speaker 3: the fifty twenty two, And that will give the attacking

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Speaker 3: team the options to look to go wide and really,

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Speaker 3: you know, in that middle third of the field, which

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Speaker 3: let's face it, over the last couple of years hasn't

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Speaker 3: necessarily produced the most exciting rugby we've seen. We hope

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Speaker 3: that this will do that. And also from a kicking

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Speaker 3: point of view, if people do want to kick in

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Speaker 3: that middle third, which you know largely where the box

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Speaker 3: sticks are coming from, we think this gives teams some

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Speaker 3: incentive to have more tactical, purposeful attacking team rather than

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Speaker 3: just throwing it up.

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Speaker 2: Do you think it might also, though, encourage teams to

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Speaker 2: kick more if the fifty twenty two was more often

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Speaker 2: an option, do you think they might take that option

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Speaker 2: more often?

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Speaker 3: Potentially? Well, I don't think it'll mean we'll have more

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Speaker 3: kicking than we currently do. I think it's going to

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Speaker 3: change the type two kicks that are already happening, because

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Speaker 3: we know in that middle third there is there is

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Speaker 3: a thavy kicking with those box kicks.

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Speaker 2: The other one that of court that I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you about is the fact that players can take

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Speaker 2: quick taps within one meter either side of the mark

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Speaker 2: or anywhere behind the mark if they're within a two

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Speaker 2: meter channel running parallel to the touch line. So is

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Speaker 2: this again just you know, there's the intent to speed

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Speaker 2: things up and not have to be right exactly on

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Speaker 2: the mark to take that tap.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure we've all sat there and seen a

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Speaker 3: free kick given and you know, a camera reguard or

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Speaker 3: you know a Tate McDermott grab the ball and look

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Speaker 3: to take advantage and get pulled back because he was,

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Speaker 3: you know, thirty centimeters off the mark, you know. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I've certainly sat around a lot of a

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Speaker 3: lot of rugby grounds and heard people pulling their hair

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Speaker 3: out when that. So we don't want those frustration, you know,

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Speaker 3: we want to make sure that you know if it's

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Speaker 3: if it's behind the mark or if it's a little

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Speaker 3: bit either side and we've set a meter or either side,

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Speaker 3: then we're good to go.

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Speaker 2: All right, and the TMO love this one. You've tightened

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Speaker 2: their role up. They will only intervene unprompted if the

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Speaker 2: referees overlooked an act of serious foul play so yellow

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Speaker 2: card level or above, or if they've missed a clear

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Speaker 2: and obvious infringement leading to a try, so lease of

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Speaker 2: the TMO. That's what you're after.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and really important to say that this is no

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Speaker 3: change from where Super has been at in the last

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Speaker 3: couple of years. But what we are doing is we

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Speaker 3: want to really communicate that that is Super's position, you know,

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Speaker 3: and we think it works really well and we want

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Speaker 3: the rest of the world to take note about the

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Speaker 3: results that we're getting from that. So no change there.

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Speaker 3: We do limit the use of the team for those

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Speaker 3: significant our play incidents or clear and obvious infringements in

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Speaker 3: the lead up to a try and you know we've

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Speaker 3: seen this work really well. It does mean our referees,

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Speaker 3: you know, we are putting the emphasis on referees to

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Speaker 3: make the calls, but we know we've got the best

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Speaker 3: the best referees and match official groups in world rugby

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Speaker 3: and we're really confident to give them more power to

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Speaker 3: make decisions on the go.

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Speaker 2: I guess then you have to accept, don't you that

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Speaker 2: games could swing on something missed by the on field

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Speaker 2: officiating team that the TMO can't coming on to fans

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Speaker 2: just have to be a bit more lenient around around

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Speaker 2: that know that some things are going to get missed

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Speaker 2: by human beings.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean fans and fans have told us

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Speaker 3: this is what they want, and so yes, when top,

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Speaker 3: when games are tight and there might be an error,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're prepared to wear that. You know, the

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Speaker 3: maths have to make hundreds of decisions in a game.

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Speaker 3: They are human and they get everything spot on, not necessarily,

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Speaker 3: but we still think, you know, around with foul play

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Speaker 3: and tries, they have the ability to leverage the technology

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Speaker 3: and take some time. And we know with the twenty

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Speaker 3: minute red card as well, where you know, we're giving

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Speaker 3: people off field time to make decisions about about what

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Speaker 3: sort of a sanction for foul play as well. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: we we think we've got that balance right. And you

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Speaker 3: know in Super Rugby where we've got eighty odd game,

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Speaker 3: you know, we you know, we're not playing for a

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Speaker 3: Bletters lay cup. You know, we we have a little

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Speaker 3: bit more leeway to continue to move the game forward

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Speaker 3: and not every decision is a is a bletterslay cup

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Speaker 3: defining decision.

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Speaker 2: All right, So those are the rules and the tweaks

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Speaker 2: that you've made. In response, I'm sure you've seen these

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Speaker 2: comments ex referee much of right now. He is now

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Speaker 2: the head of referees up in France, has size the

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Speaker 2: changes he sees. You want more passing, more tries, less

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Speaker 2: time spent and malls and scrums, which actually sounds pretty

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Speaker 2: good to me. But that Super Rugby's emphasis on speeding

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Speaker 2: up the game comes at the cost of player safety.

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Speaker 2: What is your response to that.

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Speaker 3: I absolutely refute that player safety is absolutely paramount in

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Speaker 3: Super Rugby specific and you know, when we sit down

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Speaker 3: to look at what we want to shape the game

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Speaker 3: to be in Super Pacific, the players are at the table,

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Speaker 3: they are represented at the table, and you know, we

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Speaker 3: certainly don't want to do anything that would impact player safety.

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Speaker 3: And we think we've got some of the best conditions

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Speaker 3: in the world around how do we how we manage

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Speaker 3: that and we set that up for success. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think that's you know, one hundred percent repute absolutely

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Speaker 3: And to the other point, you know, all we are

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Speaker 3: trying to do is give people more great rugby. And

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Speaker 3: now great rugby does include scrums, it does include more,

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Speaker 3: it does include line how it does include rough We

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Speaker 3: are just trying to give fans more of it and

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Speaker 3: less of the time, the static time that is around

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Speaker 3: the game. So you know, I'm not sure what the

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Speaker 3: intention is to come out and comment on what we're

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Speaker 3: doing down here, and our key priority is to find

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Speaker 3: out what fans want and to deliver that to fans,

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Speaker 3: and we will be absolutely unapologetic about that.

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Speaker 2: Now, these changes only for Super Rugby Pacific, of course,

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Speaker 2: and there's always a concern that players who then make

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Speaker 2: the All Blacks or the Wallabies or the national side

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Speaker 2: won't be prepared as well as perhaps players who play

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Speaker 2: in other competitions. First, Jack, do you have any obligation

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Speaker 2: at Super Rugby Pacific, written or otherwise to help New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: Australia or any of the Pacific nations be stronger at

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Speaker 2: test level? Is that any part of your brief or

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Speaker 2: your KPIs.

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Speaker 3: No, it's not. But what we do know is Super

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Speaker 3: Rugby has prepared our play is for the various national

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Speaker 3: teams around the Pacific, well for international for international rugby,

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Speaker 3: but I've got no KPIs about that. You know, our

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Speaker 3: purpose in Super Rugby Pacific is to the light the

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Speaker 3: flame for generations to love rugby in the Pacific. So

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Speaker 3: that is what I am past at doing, and our

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Speaker 3: shareholders New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia are very committed

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Speaker 3: to that. Now, of course you know what we you know,

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Speaker 3: we're not developing T twenty cricket, you know, when our

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Speaker 3: players are playing test cricket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: So there is of course some discussion about how far

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Speaker 3: we go on this, but our shareholders are pushing us.

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Speaker 3: You know, they want Super Rugby to be fan led,

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Speaker 3: to be an entertainment product, and so you know that

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Speaker 3: that is our focus. And you know, we certainly don't

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Speaker 3: believe that the two are mutually exclusive.

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Speaker 2: Do you think Will Rugby will at any point consider

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Speaker 2: implementing any of your changes at test level?

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Speaker 3: Well, they have and I guess that's one of the

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Speaker 3: wonderful things about celebrating thirty years of Super Raggia Pacific

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Speaker 3: this year is that Super Rugby more broadly and now

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Speaker 3: super Raggia Pacific has led the world in rugby since

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six when the game turn professional. So there

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Speaker 3: are many many innovations that Super Rugby has brought to

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Speaker 3: the table that have been adopted by world rugby. And

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Speaker 3: you know, I think all fans of all clubs should

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Speaker 3: be really proud of that twenty minute red card for example.

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Speaker 3: That's probably the most material recent one, you know, that

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Speaker 3: has been adopted across the world now, and will continue

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Speaker 3: to push for things that work. Now, we're not always

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Speaker 3: going to get it right, but we're going to test

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Speaker 3: and we're going to learn, and then we're going to

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Speaker 3: champion those things that work to be adopted more broadly.

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Speaker 2: Jack, all right, well, yeah, number thirty on its way.

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Speaker 2: So on the tenth anniversary of my Hurricanes one and

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Speaker 2: only championship, are you predicting a repeat in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: six Hurricanes to win it all?

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Speaker 3: Well, mate, they are looking good. I have to say

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Speaker 3: they are looking They are looking really good. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, mate, I would like a different champion every

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Speaker 3: year for eleven years in a row, so I'm I'm

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Speaker 3: off for something different. But yeah, I think they're looking

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Speaker 3: they are looking strong. You know, I've He've been watching

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Speaker 3: some of the trial games. There's some there's some really

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Speaker 3: really good stuff coming.

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Speaker 2: An exciting season upon us a week away, Jack, Thanks

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Speaker 2: for joining us as always to unpack the these rule

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Speaker 2: changes for us, looking forward to a terrific Super Rugby

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Speaker 2: Pacific season. No doubt we'll catch up at some stage

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Speaker 2: in the near future.

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Speaker 3: Thanks fining, great to catch up.

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Speaker 2: Always good to chat, Jack, Thanks indeed, Jack Mesley, their

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Speaker 2: CEO of Super Rugby Pacific. First of all, Jack Mesley

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Speaker 2: is a very very good operator. He's been brought into

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Speaker 2: that position of CEO of Super Rugby Pacific to oversee

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Speaker 2: and improve Super Rugby. And while he understands the bigger

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Speaker 2: picture the All Blacks, the Wallabies and the Pacific nation's

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Speaker 2: international sides, he is unashamedly tied to his own KPIs

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Speaker 2: his own goals. He said that, then they're nowhere in

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Speaker 2: his brief. Nowhere in his brief is helping the All

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Speaker 2: Blacks or the Wallabies, or Manu Samoa or Fiji improve

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Speaker 2: at international level. But history tells us that Super Rugby

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Speaker 2: has prepared those sides well for international rugby. Now, what's

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Speaker 2: happening up north is there looking down at Super Rugby

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Speaker 2: and saying you're just moving it more and more away

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Speaker 2: from set peace, from scrum dominos from you know, I

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Speaker 2: guess the stuff they like up north. But again, Jack

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Speaker 2: Mesley is fan focused. He said that a few times

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Speaker 2: in there that you know, phrases that jumped out at me,

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Speaker 2: that that demonstrated that our fans have told us this.

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Speaker 2: We're trying to give our fans more quality rugby. A

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Speaker 2: lot of organizations say they are fan focused. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I think just about every sports organization if you said

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Speaker 2: to them, hey, how important are your fans, they would say, well,

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Speaker 2: they're the most important thing to us. Many of them

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Speaker 2: do not do not walk the walk. They talk the

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Speaker 2: talk with no problem. A lot of them don't walk

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Speaker 2: the walk. Super Rugby Pacific under Jack Mesley have proven

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Speaker 2: themselves to be nimble. They've made changes. You want to

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Speaker 2: get something, you know, through World Rugby, it seems to

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Speaker 2: have to go through endless committees and rules, you know,

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Speaker 2: meetings and all sorts of other things. Jack Mesley and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure he has to confer with a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: but you know, they've brought on the tweaks, They've changed

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Speaker 2: the playoff system again. Remember last year when the Chiefs

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Speaker 2: were top of the regular season, they lost their first

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Speaker 2: knockout game, or their first finals game rather, but because

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Speaker 2: they were top, they got the second life and then

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Speaker 2: they hosted that second final. Ever thought, that doesn't sound right.

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Speaker 2: How can you lose your first finals game and then

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Speaker 2: host the next week. They've made the change. You now

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Speaker 2: can't under the new rules, the new guidelines, the new

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Speaker 2: tweak that they've made. If the Chiefs you know or

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Speaker 2: whoever it is, the top qualifier lose their first finals game,

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Speaker 2: they dropped to the bottom of the seedings for the

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Speaker 2: next round. So if you lose your first finals game,

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Speaker 2: then you lose the ability to host the semi and

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Speaker 2: or the final. It's a good tweak. It makes sense.

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Speaker 2: I remember a lot of people called the show after that, Well,

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Speaker 2: the Chiefs have lost, Remember the Blues beat them. The

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Speaker 2: Chiefs have lost, but they're hosting next week. That doesn't

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Speaker 2: make sense. Limiting the TMO involvement, Hellelujah, Hellelujah. Nothing gets

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Speaker 2: our lines ringing more than endless TMO interjection and intervention.

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Speaker 2: Under the new guidelines, the TMO will only intervene unprompted

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Speaker 2: for instances of serious foul play or a clear and

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Speaker 2: obvious infringement that leads to a try. No longer can

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Speaker 2: they get in the referees ear for anything at a

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Speaker 2: lower level than those things. We will have to wear

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Speaker 2: the fact that things might get missed. Yes, and the

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Speaker 2: excellent television coverage will show us that that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the referee and the on field officiating, you know, didn't

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Speaker 2: pick it up. The TMO can't come in for that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. I think that's that's fair. That's a

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Speaker 2: fair enough compromise the way it always was before the TMO.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a good compromise. And the other thing

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Speaker 2: I'm keen to hear of you on is what you

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Speaker 2: think these new rules might do once the players do

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Speaker 2: get into the All Blacks and the Wallabies. But for

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Speaker 2: our purposes here in New Zealand, what'll it do to

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Speaker 2: the players who then go into international rugby test rugby

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Speaker 2: against teams from everywhere and need to make a level

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Speaker 2: of adjustment that they'll be playing under under different rules.

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Speaker 2: I love the phrase from Jack though we're not playing

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Speaker 2: T twenty here and then sending our players off to

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Speaker 2: play test matches, you know it's not two different forms

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Speaker 2: of the game. They're just tweaks to improve the fan

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Speaker 2: experience at Super rugby level, and our top players are

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Speaker 2: intelligent enough to be able to work out which jersey

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Speaker 2: they're wearing, and that when they go from Super rugby

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Speaker 2: into Test rugby that things will change. I mean, these

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Speaker 2: guys aren't stupid, are they coaches? Will you know, at

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Speaker 2: All Blacks level whoever they turn out to be, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, I mean it's yeah, I think any any

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Speaker 2: naysayers and like I say, up North, I mean they

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Speaker 2: don't care. They'll be They'll be pleasedn't They'll be saying, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: this might depower the All Blacks and the Wallabies even more.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it will.

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Speaker 1: For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live

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Speaker 1: to news talks be weekends from midday, or follow the

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Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio