Speaker 1: Kilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. It'll come
Speaker 2: as no surprise when I say New Zealand has a
Speaker 2: huge problem with keeping our children safe, fed and housed,
Speaker 2: while kids go without basic needs like heating and food.
Speaker 2: We started this year with two tragic child deaths within
Speaker 2: a week. Government stats show twenty three point five percent
Speaker 2: of children born in nineteen ninety eight have been subject
Speaker 2: of a report of concern to oranga tamariki by the
Speaker 2: age of seventeen, more than one in five kids. And
Speaker 2: what happens to these kids? Some of them go on
Speaker 2: to commit crimes.
Speaker 1: Take a police.
Speaker 2: Study into youth involved in ramraids, for example, they looked
Speaker 2: at sixty three children and young people involved in ramraids
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty. More than ninety five percent were linked
Speaker 2: to at least one family harm event before first coming
Speaker 2: to police attention as a suspect or offender.
Speaker 1: So what do we do with these kids?
Speaker 2: The government reckons boot camps are one of the ways
Speaker 2: to rehabilitate them, and there's constant debate.
Speaker 1: About their effectiveness.
Speaker 2: Most recently claims of a cover up and high reoffending
Speaker 2: rates were a pilot of the latest iteration today on
Speaker 2: the front page, Minister for Children and for the Prevention
Speaker 2: of Family and Sexual Violence Karen sure is with US.
Speaker 1: Minister.
Speaker 2: Over the last week, Labor has accused the government of
Speaker 2: a cover up around the boot Camp trial and the
Speaker 2: extent of the reoffending there. What do you say to
Speaker 2: claims that up to six of the young youth offenders
Speaker 2: are back in youth justice facilities.
Speaker 3: And I'm not going to get into numbers of these
Speaker 3: young people. Unfortunately, since this pilot has begun, has been
Speaker 3: brought to my attention by those who are working with
Speaker 3: these young people that they have expressed through their care
Speaker 3: teams that the media attention on them has had a
Speaker 3: real negative effect and it's actually affecting their well being.
Speaker 3: So my ultimate goal is around making sure that these
Speaker 3: young people's safety and well being at first and foremost,
Speaker 3: and so that's why I've made this decision that we
Speaker 3: need to just allow them to get on with what
Speaker 3: they need to be doing.
Speaker 2: It was a pilot for a reason, though, right what
Speaker 2: have you learned from it and what changes should be
Speaker 2: made if it were to continue.
Speaker 3: So we've just released the first review I think it
Speaker 3: was last week that was released around the in residence
Speaker 3: part of the program, which was around three months, and
Speaker 3: it shows some really positive results for the young people,
Speaker 3: and not only just for the young people, but for
Speaker 3: the staff working with them. It's setting a new way
Speaker 3: of working with these young people when they come to
Speaker 3: You've Justice residents. So these young people that qualify for
Speaker 3: the military style academy must have committed at least two crimes,
Speaker 3: being eligible for a sentence of ten years or more
Speaker 3: so their repeat offenders. What we've done in the past
Speaker 3: is there been sentenced, put in a youth justice facility,
Speaker 3: do their sentence and leave, and then they're back in
Speaker 3: the community, creating more victims, getting into trouble, and then
Speaker 3: ending up back in a youth justice facility. What I've
Speaker 3: done here is just ask the question, what could we
Speaker 3: be doing better? Instead of just sticking them in a
Speaker 3: youth justice facility, waiting for them to see the sentence
Speaker 3: out and send them back to the same environment they
Speaker 3: were coming from. Let's wrap around not only that young person,
Speaker 3: assess them, see what their needs are medically and also
Speaker 3: their mental health and any neurodiversity issues. Actually deal with
Speaker 3: those issues while they're in residence, help them with their education,
Speaker 3: help them with all kinds of things like leaving with
Speaker 3: a pack with a driver's license, some idea so that
Speaker 3: they can do the basic things in life, and a
Speaker 3: CVS that they can apply for jobs. Then work with
Speaker 3: the funo in the community and recommendor around them. These
Speaker 3: are the extra efforts that we're putting into these young people.
Speaker 3: But ultimately what they do with those opportunities is up
Speaker 3: to them. But we can now say that we're doing
Speaker 3: everything we possibly can to break that cycle.
Speaker 2: But with this pilot, if there is a high reoffending rate,
Speaker 2: something needs to change, right, Well.
Speaker 3: Well, I would just say to you there's a high
Speaker 3: reoffending rate before this even began, it's pretty much one
Speaker 3: hundred percent chance of them ending up back in a
Speaker 3: youth justice facility. What we're doing here is we're trying
Speaker 3: something new. We're making sure that we're working with them
Speaker 3: in the community. We're not saying this is a magic bullet.
Speaker 3: What we're saying is is that this is just another
Speaker 3: tool in our about to try and help these young
Speaker 3: people be the best that they can be. And like
Speaker 3: I said, what they do with that opportunity is up
Speaker 3: to them. But we can now say that we are
Speaker 3: doing this work right.
Speaker 2: So it's better to do it and them reoffend than
Speaker 2: just not do it at all and them reoffend.
Speaker 3: That's not what I'm saying. I didn't say it's better
Speaker 3: to do it and then reoffend. What I'm saying to
Speaker 3: you is is this gives them a better opportunity to
Speaker 3: not reoffend. I don't have control of whether these kids
Speaker 3: reoffend or not. All I have control around is what
Speaker 3: we put around them to help them to be the
Speaker 3: best that they can be. Ultimately, as a personal choice
Speaker 3: of theirs, whether they take up these opportunities.
Speaker 4: One of the positives that came out of the pilot review.
Speaker 4: I remember you as I flicked through. We're saying that,
Speaker 4: you know, there wasn't actually any child on child violence,
Speaker 4: which is a very common factor within the youth justice facility.
Speaker 4: So something we did right and you can't do it. No,
Speaker 4: I'm talking in the mat throw. I'm not going to
Speaker 4: talk specifics around individuals that may for.
Speaker 1: Specifics around individuals, I'm asking for a rate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm saying to you, I'm not talking about
Speaker 4: individuals and their personal circumstances for privacy reasons. I'm talking
Speaker 4: about things and the aggregate to say to you that
Speaker 4: there were things that we did really well that were
Speaker 4: actually good learnings that you know, when we compare to
Speaker 4: how we normally run with justice facilities. And on the
Speaker 4: other hand, there'll be things that we can improve.
Speaker 1: If we move on to another subject.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you when I first moved to this country
Speaker 2: a decade ago, there were three children murdered in quick succession,
Speaker 2: and I remember being actually quite shocked and asking someone
Speaker 2: in the office, you know, is this normal for New Zealand?
Speaker 2: And when they replied yes, I was like, okay. Now
Speaker 2: ten years later and in the first six days of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, two children were allegedly murdered in.
Speaker 1: The first six days of the year. Is this good enough?
Speaker 3: The statistics for childdifs that the hands of people who
Speaker 3: are supposed to love them is not good enough. It
Speaker 3: hasn't been good enough, and that is something that motivated
Speaker 3: me in the first place to put my hand up
Speaker 3: to be in this space to try and break that
Speaker 3: cycle of harm. So I'm very lucky to have another
Speaker 3: portfolio other than children's in this space. Around breaking the
Speaker 3: side of harm and violence within households, because it's really
Speaker 3: important that we get to the crux of what's actually
Speaker 3: causing these issues. And when you look at family harm
Speaker 3: in this country as actually should be our national shame,
Speaker 3: how many people are being hurt and harmed. So one
Speaker 3: of the government's priorities in this space is to reduce
Speaker 3: the level of violent crimes and sexual violence crimes by
Speaker 3: around twenty thousand people is our first targ and so
Speaker 3: we're really zoning in in that space, what services are
Speaker 3: best to deal with this space, and looking at how
Speaker 3: community can come in and really get involved in what
Speaker 3: that looks like.
Speaker 2: And I mean, I don't need to tell you this
Speaker 2: because you've probably seen all of the statistics because like
Speaker 2: you said, you've put your hand up for this portfolio.
Speaker 2: But I wanted to get your reaction to a couple
Speaker 2: that jumped out to me. As of March twenty twenty one,
Speaker 2: New Zealand ranked thirty five out of forty one developed
Speaker 2: countries for child well being outcomes. Every eighth homicide victim
Speaker 2: in New zan from the years twenty four to twenty
Speaker 2: nineteen was a child, and more than two thirds of
Speaker 2: those were aged under two, and the latest Salvation Army
Speaker 2: A State of the Nation report shows violence against children
Speaker 2: is rising, with the number of children hospitalized from assault
Speaker 2: and neglect in twenty twenty four is the highest in
Speaker 2: ten years. When you look at those statistics, I mean,
Speaker 2: what do you think, what do we do? First?
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. And then when I first
Speaker 3: came in, I looked at the strategies that the governments
Speaker 3: of previous governments had had in place in this space.
Speaker 3: And there's multiple agencies that have roles to play in this.
Speaker 3: And we talk about in all of government approach, which
Speaker 3: sounds good, but unless each agency within government is on
Speaker 3: the same page, agencies are siloing who are not actually
Speaker 3: speaking to each other, and so there are gaps there
Speaker 3: for people, and people are falling through those gaps. And
Speaker 3: so my first goal where I wanted to start actually
Speaker 3: having a look at all these strategy plans making sure
Speaker 3: that they actually were achieving something. And what I did
Speaker 3: find was the strategies were massive, there were lots of priorities,
Speaker 3: far too many. Government was trying to do way too
Speaker 3: much and actually doing nothing well. So the first where
Speaker 3: we start as a government and was actually making sure
Speaker 3: we prioritize and make sure we get those basics right
Speaker 3: so that when people walk through a front door of
Speaker 3: an agency, there is no wrong door, so that every
Speaker 3: agency is on the right page, and we can get
Speaker 3: these people in front of who they need to be
Speaker 3: in front of quicker and faster.
Speaker 2: There's been some backlash to the removal of section seven
Speaker 2: AA from the Tamariki Act, which is no surprise to you.
Speaker 2: It obligates the agency to ensure it said is the
Speaker 2: fucker Papa of multi children Muori already fair agencies like
Speaker 2: OT after a long history of racism. We've heard some
Speaker 2: horror stories from the likes of the Abuse and Care
Speaker 2: Inquiry for instance, So why remove something like seven AA.
Speaker 3: I have absolutely no objection to fucka Papa being part
Speaker 3: of the decision making. What I do object to is
Speaker 3: having a piece of legislation within the Act that obligates
Speaker 3: the Chief Executive to abide by the treaty of White
Speaker 3: tonguey and decision making. That's where my objection came from,
Speaker 3: because what does that actually mean. It's quite vague. It
Speaker 3: depends on who is interpreting it to how it is
Speaker 3: rolled out, and I want to make sure we're all
Speaker 3: on the same page. And the first thing we need
Speaker 3: to do when it comes to young people, because according
Speaker 3: to what you've just said to me, our national shame
Speaker 3: is that we have so many children in this country
Speaker 3: dying at the hands of people who are supposed to
Speaker 3: love and care for them. We need to make sure
Speaker 3: that their safety is their well being comes first and
Speaker 3: foremost in every decision we're making. Fucker Papa is part
Speaker 3: of that, but it shouldn't be the be all and
Speaker 3: end all. So this is to clarify so that we're
Speaker 3: all on the same page when it comes to audoing
Speaker 3: Atomatiki in their core purpose, which is child protection.
Speaker 2: Now, you yourself have been through the system. You shared
Speaker 2: a lot of your story in your maiden speech, including
Speaker 2: how child youth and family didn't allow you to move
Speaker 2: back in with your grandmother, for instance, and told you
Speaker 2: that no one in your family wanted you. How have
Speaker 2: your experiences shaped your approach to this portfolio.
Speaker 3: I think you current deny that personal experiences of going
Speaker 3: through the system will shape how you see things and
Speaker 3: sometimes what you're considering when making decisions. But it also
Speaker 3: opens your eyes to this system has for far too
Speaker 3: long had an organization that looks after the organization. We
Speaker 3: need to start looking at making sure that the organization
Speaker 3: is focusing on the child's needs and working around the child,
Speaker 3: not making the child work around the system. And for
Speaker 3: far too long, children have been unheard when they're crying
Speaker 3: out to be safe. And yes, I have spoken about that,
Speaker 3: and I have spoken about the fact that my grandmother
Speaker 3: did want me. Section seven AA would not have changed
Speaker 3: that because she would have been a safe environment to
Speaker 3: go to. The reasoning behind her not being allowed to
Speaker 3: care for me was the fact that they thought she
Speaker 3: was too old. Things have changed since I was in
Speaker 3: the care system, thank goodness. But we also need to
Speaker 3: make sure that there's no unintended consequences where we're ending
Speaker 3: up with a lot of grandparents who don't have the
Speaker 3: support around them looking after their grandchildren. So that's a
Speaker 3: real focus for me this year, making sure that we
Speaker 3: are looking at how we support kegib and making sure
Speaker 3: that that's a positive experience and they're not feeling like
Speaker 3: they are having to fight the system them for every
Speaker 3: support that they need for their grandkids.
Speaker 2: Now, what could we do to make sure that that
Speaker 2: doesn't happen again, That caregivers like grandparents can take on
Speaker 2: their grandchildren and be primary caregivers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've set this as one of my main
Speaker 3: priorities this year around making sure that caregivers are satisfied
Speaker 3: with their support. We've started off with a caregiver survey
Speaker 3: which we're now working our way through, and we're also
Speaker 3: looking at different things like are caregivers satisfied with the
Speaker 3: support of their social workers? Are they satisfied with the
Speaker 3: support of ordering a timidike, because those can often be
Speaker 3: two separate issues, but also looking at are you supported
Speaker 3: with the tools that you need? Can we get the
Speaker 3: young person into education fast enough? Are we making decisions
Speaker 3: closer to the ground so that we're not waiting for
Speaker 3: Wellington to make a decision about where your young person goes,
Speaker 3: which takes far too long, and the young people are
Speaker 3: the only ones to suffer. So these are the things
Speaker 3: that I'm looking into, and these are the things I'm
Speaker 3: directing ordering Atomidiki to focus on to make sure that
Speaker 3: we are doing better in that space.
Speaker 5: Very often in your retort, you refer to your ancestry
Speaker 5: cannot matter more than the safety of a mook upon
Speaker 5: which is an absolute abhorrent to ticon, it is abhorrent
Speaker 5: to mindy, It is abhorrent through the way in which
Speaker 5: we see the world. So it's we're already compromised. Your
Speaker 5: model is already compromises the value and the and the
Speaker 5: essence of being looking from the MILDI.
Speaker 3: Look, I have to disagree with most of what you've said,
Speaker 3: and you're entitled to say it, but I actually disagree
Speaker 3: with most of what You've got a gap acknowledgments.
Speaker 5: You don't understand.
Speaker 2: Now, you've faced a lot of abuse from other Maori
Speaker 2: MPs since you've been in parliament. What do you put
Speaker 2: this down to and how has affected your handling of
Speaker 2: your portfolios?
Speaker 3: Oh? Look, how someone sees me as being a Maori
Speaker 3: does not affect how I handle my portfolios. That's actually
Speaker 3: a them problem, not a me problem. If they want
Speaker 3: to be fixated on whether I'm the right kind of Maori,
Speaker 3: that's their issue. My job is to come here and
Speaker 3: make sure my focus is on making the care system
Speaker 3: work better for our young people so that they can
Speaker 3: wake up in the morning and know that they're going
Speaker 3: to be safe and that today is going to be
Speaker 3: a good day. That's my focus. What others think about
Speaker 3: who I am as a Maori. Actually, quite frankly, I'm
Speaker 3: sick of hearing about it, and they can move on
Speaker 3: whenever they're ready.
Speaker 2: Key we kids and teens are apparently fifty percent more
Speaker 2: likely to die of abuse than those in Australia. What
Speaker 2: are we doing wrong and what should we be doing
Speaker 2: to fix it?
Speaker 3: I think it's all of the things that I've mentioned
Speaker 3: within this interview. But what I would say is government
Speaker 3: alone can not fix this problem. It's not just up
Speaker 3: to government to come and fix this issue. Where as
Speaker 3: a society, we really need to take a really good
Speaker 3: hard look at ourselves and the way that we deal
Speaker 3: with this issue. We do tend to turn a blind
Speaker 3: eye when things are not necessarily right within our families,
Speaker 3: within our neighborhoods. And what I would say to people
Speaker 3: is the more we talk about this topic, which can
Speaker 3: sometimes be a very uncomfortable topic, and the more we
Speaker 3: normalize actually calling out this kind of behavior and support
Speaker 3: people who do call out this kind of behavior, the
Speaker 3: better we will be as a country.
Speaker 1: Former Prime Minister Jasandra A.
Speaker 2: Durn once said that she wanted New Zealand to be
Speaker 2: the best place in the world to raise a child. Now,
Speaker 2: do you think that New Zealand is the best place
Speaker 2: in the world to raise a child at the moment?
Speaker 3: I think for many people, New Zealand is a wonderful
Speaker 3: place to raise their child. For me, I made sure
Speaker 3: that my children didn't follow in the same footsteps as
Speaker 3: I did. I was determined to make sure that they
Speaker 3: had stability in their lives when it came to education
Speaker 3: and when it came to having a house and a
Speaker 3: roof over the head. And I worked really hard for that.
Speaker 3: But there are some people and many in this country
Speaker 3: who do face rather large obstacles to make this a
Speaker 3: great place for their children to be raised in. I
Speaker 3: would say it's a bit above. It can be a
Speaker 3: wonderful place, but there's room to improve, and there's a
Speaker 3: massive room to improve when it comes to supporting those
Speaker 3: young people who don't necessarily have where we don't necessarily
Speaker 3: have eyes on you.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, minister.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at Enzadhrald dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sells and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: a sound engineer.
Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
Speaker 2: behind the headlines.