WEBVTT - Charlie Kirk shooting sparks warnings on online radicalisation risks 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:05.920 Kyota. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.119 I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:16.800 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The assassination 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.280 of conservative activist Charlie Kirk has shone a spotlight on 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:26.000 political violence in the US and around the world. The 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.280 thirty one year old was shot at a Utah University 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.559 last week in front of thousands of people. The alleged 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.480 killer is twenty two year old Tyler Robinson, who's set 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:41.480 to appear in court this week. While his motive remains unclear, 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:46.159 the killing has sparked conversations about the widening gap between 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:51.280 left and right politics. It's also highlighted the deep dark 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.760 depths of the Internet and how young people can be 0:00:54.920 --> 0:01:00.000 radicalized online. Today on the Front Page, Massy University emeritus 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.160 professor and sociologist Paul Spoonley is with us to dissect 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.640 the inner workings of those who perpetrate political violence and 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:15.320 how we might be able to stop them. So, Paul, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:18.080 the race is on to try and figure out why 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:22.040 this shooter targeted Charlie Kirk. And there are a lot 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.440 of accusations being thrown around at the moment. At the 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.360 end of the day, though, does it really matter what 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.960 side he was on, left or right, It's still political violence, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:32.559 isn't it. 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.480 It is political violence, and unfortunately, and particularly in the US, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:40.600 we're seeing more of it. And the difficulty, the difficulty 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.640 there and the difficulty here in New Zealand is that 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.720 when we get these local actors, these homegrown local actors, 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.200 very often they're invisible. They send out quite weak signals. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.960 And I think, Chelsea, we're naive. I think we're naive 0:01:56.040 --> 0:01:58.280 to think that this is something that happens in America, 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.280 not here. It has happened here, and it will happen here. 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.440 But we're also a naive in terms of what we 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.520 need to look for, because in the case of the 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.400 Charlie Kirk killing, but also in the case of the 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:18.440 christ Church shooter, there were people around both of those 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:22.560 shooters who would have seen something but didn't possibly didn't 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.720 know what they were looking at. So I do think 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:33.760 we need to increase the awareness of families and peers 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.200 and teachers in terms of what they might look for 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:39.519 as people get radicalized. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.160 And in terms of that as well, I mean, I've 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.120 seen a lot of conversation around on the Internet and 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:51.639 kind of deciphering this language used I know that bullets 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.920 found after the shooting carried a range of messages and 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.520 the Internet is kind of racing to decipher those, and 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.360 it looks like, you know, they're referencing video games, meme culture. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.559 I mean, it seems to me like a completely different language. 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.520 And that isn't foreign to these kind of people, right. 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.760 No, it's not. And I mean I would go to 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.160 the christ Church shooter and the advantage, if there are 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.120 any advantages there was that he published a manifesto, so he, 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:28.880 like the killer of Charlie Kirk, had insignia or memes 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.040 or sayings on the guns and the ammunition. In the 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.480 case of the christ Church shooter, he did have that 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.120 as well, but he also had a manifesto, so we 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:42.040 can get a sense of why what prompted him to 0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.920 do what he did in christ Church in twenty nineteen. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.800 It's a little bit more difficult with this one, particularly 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:52.440 as the shooter is not being cooperative and so we 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:56.840 now got to do a forensic check of what's happened online, 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:58.880 what we can get from that, and of course what 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:00.960 the police and other are athorities are doing, which is 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:02.360 talking to family and friends. 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.000 I mean, regardless what these inscriptions actually mean it just 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:10.880 it points to a person who's like deeply entrenched in 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:15.320 those online forums and that online culture, and this is 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.640 where a lot of that radicalization happens nowadays. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:24.159 Hey, yes it does, and it's actually relatively recent Chelsea 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:28.279 in terms of what we're seeing. Last year the Five 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.040 Eyes of which New Zealand's part, produced a very interesting 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:37.480 report on young people in the five countries and radicalization. 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.359 And what we're seeing is that younger people, sometimes educated 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.839 so well educated, perhaps students who are doing well or 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.240 university students and you know that's the case with this shooter, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.640 are attracted and then they go down these rabbit holes 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:58.960 into conspiratorial extreme views and ideologies. I have to say 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.560 that the the bulk of people who express those extreme 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:08.120 views online do not necessarily act out those views. But 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.880 we still have that possibility and what we need to 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.720 understand and I don't think we do really as much 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.920 as we would like to. What's the process who's vulnerable 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:24.080 in the first instance, but what's the process whereby people 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:28.840 get convinced that these extreme views are views that they 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.839 should hold, in which they demonize others. The difficulty at 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.440 the moment is we're really paralyzed, and we've got declining trust. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.440 We've got declining trust and politicians, unfortunately Chelsea, and the media, 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.560 and so we tend to revert to these echo chambers 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.320 in which we get affirmation of our own views. So 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.800 what starts that process? What leads you into that echo chamber? 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.440 And you know, we know vulnerability, we know social isolation. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.240 There are a number of cues that we need to 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.799 be aware of, but we really do need to understand 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.720 more about it. And how do we intervene much earlier 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.360 in that process before they do get radicalized? 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:14.719 And generally we're talking about this kind of right wing conservatism, 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:20.560 it's disenfranchised young men as well. Nine times out of ten. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:25.200 How do we get to that group and steer them 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.120 away from these kind of forums that make them feel 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:31.400 so included and so part of a pack, so to speak. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.159 Yeah, And I was at the University of California at 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.640 Berkeley with an author called Ali Hodgchild, and what she 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:43.920 pointed to in the American context was the disaffection and 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:51.080 the alienation of particularly white working class men, increasingly white 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.320 middle class men in terms of the recognition of diversity. 0:06:56.520 --> 0:06:58.920 So what we've got is an inversion. In the past, 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:02.800 we would have probably said that particular groups, let's say 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.880 Afro Americans, have been the victims of institutional racism, to 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:12.280 use a word. What we're now seeing is the flip 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.520 of that, and that the victims in modern society are 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:21.880 very often white males who were being excluded from promotion, 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:27.080 from jobs. And so we're getting this combination of economic circumstances. 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.760 And remember a lot of us began to emerge during 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.480 the global financial crisis two and eight twenty twelve, and 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:38.360 then got accelerated during COVID, and so's there's certainly a constituency. 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.960 And by the way, there is a constituency in New Zealand. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:45.840 If you look at a group like right wing Resistance, 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.000 they tended to be young males and very much into 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:54.640 the manisphere, so you know, a toxic masculinity, and a 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.640 number of them were a university student. So those old 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.400 ideas that somehow the people who are going to be 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.360 recruited were not educated, were not aware of the world 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.320 around them, is no longer true. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.880 These interpretations of the messages as well as the shooters 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:15.520 online blueprint, it's hard to decipher what his political leaning is. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.680 So you've got these very niche references to anti fascism, 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.440 but you've also got these references used by groups like 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.800 neo Nazi nick for Winters as followers who didn't actually 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.320 like Charlie Kirk. Does this show that the far right 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:31.640 isn't as black and white anymore? 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.880 Yes. And indeed our own groups inside New Zealand, our 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.840 security and intelligence agencies, but also the Combined Threats Assessment Group, 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.520 which is the main government group that looks at the 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.520 threat landscape in New Zealand, have developed some new categories. 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.360 And it looks as though those new categories of people 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.600 who bring together various traditions both sort of less than right, 0:08:54.640 --> 0:09:00.640 as you've pointed out, to provide new political view points, 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.040 but they're still extreme. And for me, I think one 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.360 of the things that I've focused on the extreme right, 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.440 but one of the things that strikes me is that 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.200 when you look at the extreme left and the extreme right, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.360 very often they look quite similar. They look the way 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.640 in which they demonize particular people. They might demonize different people, 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.960 but the way in which they demonize people and the 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:28.560 way in which they justify are violence towards government. And 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.600 so what we've seen, and I think the US evidence 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.160 over the last two decades. They've got an excellent report 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:41.559 on what's contributed to tourist attacks and redcalization is that 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:46.960 seventy percent have come from the extreme right. And yes, 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.920 white supremacists, so they would be classic sort of Nazi 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.800 fascist groups. But the other major category is anti government. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.400 And so I think what we've seen as a new 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.040 set of as a new set of groups begin to emerge, 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:06.800 particularly since COVID, in which attacking the government, attacking the 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.160 police sovereign citizens would be a case in point. And 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.200 so we had a we had an activist, Richard Silvill, 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.920 who was sentenced and earlier this year, and he was 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.240 sentenced because he shared objectionable material the christ Church stream 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.000 of the shooting, but because he threatened to kill the 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.040 Prime Minister, just Sindra Adourn. And so I think we're 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:35.400 getting these diverse but mixed set of messages and positions 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.000 that are beginning to emerge. It's much more complex than 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.880 when I first began to look at the extreme right 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:42.280 some decades ago. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.360 Yeah, I mean, because it's from my learnings online, it's 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:50.280 not really right versus left anymore. And even that kind 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:54.040 of spectrum, you can question whether that's a particularly good 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.240 way of describing these groups. I learned that there are 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.840 factions of the far right actually in conflict with each other, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:07.560 so these people called gropers who think MAGA is actually liberal. 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.920 So knowing the kind of colorful array and all of 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:16.120 the different gray bits in between will probably help us 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:17.400 moving forward, right. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.479 It will. It will, but we need to map that landscape. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:26.280 So it's changed and constantly changing. So I've talked about 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.400 its diversity, but we're also seeing new positions beginning to emerge, 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.160 which is what you've highlighted. And we do need good 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:36.920 evidence for this, And can I go to There's a 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:41.040 private group in New Zealand called Global Risk Consulting Group, 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.560 and their latest assessment, which came out a while ago, 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.480 think says that there's a seventy percent chance that we 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:53.920 will see a terrorist act in the next five years 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:55.800 in New Zealand. And I think we've got to take 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.680 that seriously. So one of the things I would dearly 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:04.600 love us to do is to understand both the international 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.440 but also the domestic landscape here, because I do think 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:13.160 we face the possibility that because we don't understand all 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:16.080 of these permutations, somebody's going to come out of somewhere 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:19.200 that we haven't actually paid much attention to. And that was, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.959 of course the Royal Commission's concern after the christ shooting, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.400 that we paid too much attention to Islamic terrorism and 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:36.920 not enough to write a white supremacy terrorism. 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.000 Jennie Vancier live from my office in the White House 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.439 complex and filling in for somebody who cannot be filled 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:44.800 in for. But I'm going to try to do my 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:49.880 best my dear friend, the great Charlie Kirk. The thing is, 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:55.160 every single person in this building we owe something to Charlie. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.120 He was a joyful warrior for our country. He loved 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.960 America did voted himself tirelessly to making our country a 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.000 better place. He was a critical part of getting Donald 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.960 Trump elected as president, getting me elected as vice president, 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.600 and so much of our success over the last seven 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.720 months is due to his efforts, his staffing, his support 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:17.880 in his friendship. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.560 I think it's quite interesting in the US if we 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.959 go back to the Charlie Kirk shooting. Donald Trump has 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.760 continued to accuse his political opponents of inciting violence and 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:34.040 placing blame on the left. He said, the problem is 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.120 on the left. It's not on the right. He then 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.040 blamed left wing radicals. Then we have JD. Vance signaling 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.640 a growing and powerful minority on the left as well, 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.120 and the very quick to point fingers. And I read 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.600 a comment from Seawan Westwood. He's the director of the 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.400 Polarization Research Lab at Dartmouth College, and he said, in 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.400 the aftermath of the assassination attempt against Donald Trump, say, 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.400 leaders on both side of the IOWA called the national 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:06.800 temperature issuing unified condemnation, and in the way of Kirk's murder, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.160 the opposite is happening. He said, We're witnessing the cynical 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.400 minting of a martyr and a call to fight instead. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.440 How important is it that they're taking this route as 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.480 opposed to unifying and calling for condemnation of all political violence. 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:30.760 Yeah, and I think that's really disappointing. And so I 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.359 think there are a number of public commentators and politicians 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.440 in the United States that have asked, we're toning down 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:41.160 at the temperature around this, because if you look at 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:46.520 the evidence of President Trump's own agencies, then the major 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.040 threat comes from the far right, not from the far left. 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.560 So this attempt to recategorize where the threat is coming 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.680 from is actually not supported by the evidence. So the 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.160 Department Justice has done some really good works around looking 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.880 at where terrorism is likely to come from. And if 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.680 I can give an example, Timothy McVeigh was a sovereign 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.880 citizen and he was involved in the Oklahoma bombing. So 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:16.400 those major events of terrorism have involved the far right, 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.920 and I just don't think it's helpful, I mean politically, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.120 but also in terms of how you rebuild trust. You're 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:29.000 really effectively cementing in some of the divisions and some 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.960 of the hostility and the polarization and the demonization of 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:38.200 particular groups. And of course we forget or have forgotten, 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:43.080 and it's not mentioned now that a Democratic senator was 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.360 shot in their own home not so long ago. So 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.760 why the outrage now not the outrage? 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:50.920 Then? 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:55.080 It seems very one sided to me and very unfortunate, 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.320 because how do you rebuild when you dig these sort 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.920 of trenches and conduct the sort of warfare. 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.600 How do we catch up to these kind of groups, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.680 and how do we learn their language online? And how 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.440 can New Zealand make sure that nothing similar happens here? 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.880 I think there's some excellent work being done internationally. So 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:20.680 the International Strategic dialogue and one of the researchers might 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:22.480 have come Ifort has done some really good work in 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.400 New Zealand. By the way, that research shows that New 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.160 Zealand is accessing far right YouTube or Facebook, I'm not 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.040 sure which sites. Was double the rate of Australian, triple 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.240 the rate of Canada. So why is that the case? 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.520 And I think we need to access some of the 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.400 initiatives and the understanding that's available internationally. The EU has 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:49.880 done some really good work around what to do in 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:54.560 terms of identifying the dynamics of a particular country and 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.920 internationally and then what we might do. By the way, 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.240 there are some initiatives in New Zealand which I think 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.280 we need to acknowledge. The New Zealand Security Intelligence Service 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.560 had produced a very good little Booklet's saying No the Signs. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.000 So there is something that is happening here. There are 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.080 some things that are happening here. But I would really 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:20.159 like us to pay more attention, fund more activity to 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.080 make sure that we are on top of what's happening. 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.960 And particularly I think we're going to struggle given the 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.720 volume of material that's appearing online and so our agencies, 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:35.440 our security and intelligence agencies are really swamped by this material. 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.440 The amount of material and then trying to identify where 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.919 the potential risks might be coming from just got to 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:46.560 be a much more community wide response. And I do 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.959 think we need to talk about digital literacy and digital citizenship. 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.520 We've really got to understand what's happening, particularly to young 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.640 people but also others online at the moment and what 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.880 the possibilities and the problems. 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.119 Thanks for joining us, Paul. 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:03.920 Thank you, Chelsea. Always a pleasure. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.439 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.360 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.480 at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.960 produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:26.639 our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.280 on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.360 in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.