1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Kyota. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. The assassination 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 2: of conservative activist Charlie Kirk has shone a spotlight on 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: political violence in the US and around the world. The 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 2: thirty one year old was shot at a Utah University 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 2: last week in front of thousands of people. The alleged 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: killer is twenty two year old Tyler Robinson, who's set 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 2: to appear in court this week. While his motive remains unclear, 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: the killing has sparked conversations about the widening gap between 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 2: left and right politics. It's also highlighted the deep dark 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: depths of the Internet and how young people can be 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: radicalized online. Today on the Front Page, Massy University emeritus 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 2: professor and sociologist Paul Spoonley is with us to dissect 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: the inner workings of those who perpetrate political violence and 16 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 2: how we might be able to stop them. So, Paul, 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: the race is on to try and figure out why 18 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: this shooter targeted Charlie Kirk. And there are a lot 19 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: of accusations being thrown around at the moment. At the 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 2: end of the day, though, does it really matter what 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 2: side he was on, left or right, It's still political violence, 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 2: isn't it. 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: It is political violence, and unfortunately, and particularly in the US, 24 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: we're seeing more of it. And the difficulty, the difficulty 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: there and the difficulty here in New Zealand is that 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: when we get these local actors, these homegrown local actors, 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: very often they're invisible. They send out quite weak signals. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: And I think, Chelsea, we're naive. I think we're naive 29 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: to think that this is something that happens in America, 30 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: not here. It has happened here, and it will happen here. 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: But we're also a naive in terms of what we 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: need to look for, because in the case of the 33 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk killing, but also in the case of the 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: christ Church shooter, there were people around both of those 35 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: shooters who would have seen something but didn't possibly didn't 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: know what they were looking at. So I do think 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: we need to increase the awareness of families and peers 38 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: and teachers in terms of what they might look for 39 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: as people get radicalized. 40 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: And in terms of that as well, I mean, I've 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: seen a lot of conversation around on the Internet and 42 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: kind of deciphering this language used I know that bullets 43 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: found after the shooting carried a range of messages and 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: the Internet is kind of racing to decipher those, and 45 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: it looks like, you know, they're referencing video games, meme culture. 46 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,559 Speaker 2: I mean, it seems to me like a completely different language. 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: And that isn't foreign to these kind of people, right. 48 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: No, it's not. And I mean I would go to 49 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: the christ Church shooter and the advantage, if there are 50 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: any advantages there was that he published a manifesto, so he, 51 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: like the killer of Charlie Kirk, had insignia or memes 52 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: or sayings on the guns and the ammunition. In the 53 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: case of the christ Church shooter, he did have that 54 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: as well, but he also had a manifesto, so we 55 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: can get a sense of why what prompted him to 56 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: do what he did in christ Church in twenty nineteen. 57 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: It's a little bit more difficult with this one, particularly 58 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: as the shooter is not being cooperative and so we 59 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: now got to do a forensic check of what's happened online, 60 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: what we can get from that, and of course what 61 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: the police and other are athorities are doing, which is 62 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: talking to family and friends. 63 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: I mean, regardless what these inscriptions actually mean it just 64 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: it points to a person who's like deeply entrenched in 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: those online forums and that online culture, and this is 66 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: where a lot of that radicalization happens nowadays. 67 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: Hey, yes it does, and it's actually relatively recent Chelsea 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: in terms of what we're seeing. Last year the Five 69 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: Eyes of which New Zealand's part, produced a very interesting 70 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: report on young people in the five countries and radicalization. 71 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: And what we're seeing is that younger people, sometimes educated 72 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: so well educated, perhaps students who are doing well or 73 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: university students and you know that's the case with this shooter, 74 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: are attracted and then they go down these rabbit holes 75 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: into conspiratorial extreme views and ideologies. I have to say 76 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: that the the bulk of people who express those extreme 77 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: views online do not necessarily act out those views. But 78 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: we still have that possibility and what we need to 79 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: understand and I don't think we do really as much 80 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: as we would like to. What's the process who's vulnerable 81 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: in the first instance, but what's the process whereby people 82 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: get convinced that these extreme views are views that they 83 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: should hold, in which they demonize others. The difficulty at 84 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: the moment is we're really paralyzed, and we've got declining trust. 85 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: We've got declining trust and politicians, unfortunately Chelsea, and the media, 86 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: and so we tend to revert to these echo chambers 87 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: in which we get affirmation of our own views. So 88 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: what starts that process? What leads you into that echo chamber? 89 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: And you know, we know vulnerability, we know social isolation. 90 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: There are a number of cues that we need to 91 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 1: be aware of, but we really do need to understand 92 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: more about it. And how do we intervene much earlier 93 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: in that process before they do get radicalized? 94 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: And generally we're talking about this kind of right wing conservatism, 95 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: it's disenfranchised young men as well. Nine times out of ten. 96 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: How do we get to that group and steer them 97 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: away from these kind of forums that make them feel 98 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: so included and so part of a pack, so to speak. 99 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was at the University of California at 100 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: Berkeley with an author called Ali Hodgchild, and what she 101 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: pointed to in the American context was the disaffection and 102 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: the alienation of particularly white working class men, increasingly white 103 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: middle class men in terms of the recognition of diversity. 104 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: So what we've got is an inversion. In the past, 105 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: we would have probably said that particular groups, let's say 106 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: Afro Americans, have been the victims of institutional racism, to 107 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: use a word. What we're now seeing is the flip 108 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: of that, and that the victims in modern society are 109 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: very often white males who were being excluded from promotion, 110 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: from jobs. And so we're getting this combination of economic circumstances. 111 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: And remember a lot of us began to emerge during 112 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: the global financial crisis two and eight twenty twelve, and 113 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: then got accelerated during COVID, and so's there's certainly a constituency. 114 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, there is a constituency in New Zealand. 115 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: If you look at a group like right wing Resistance, 116 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: they tended to be young males and very much into 117 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: the manisphere, so you know, a toxic masculinity, and a 118 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: number of them were a university student. So those old 119 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: ideas that somehow the people who are going to be 120 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: recruited were not educated, were not aware of the world 121 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: around them, is no longer true. 122 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: These interpretations of the messages as well as the shooters 123 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: online blueprint, it's hard to decipher what his political leaning is. 124 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: So you've got these very niche references to anti fascism, 125 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: but you've also got these references used by groups like 126 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: neo Nazi nick for Winters as followers who didn't actually 127 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: like Charlie Kirk. Does this show that the far right 128 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: isn't as black and white anymore? 129 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: Yes. And indeed our own groups inside New Zealand, our 130 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: security and intelligence agencies, but also the Combined Threats Assessment Group, 131 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: which is the main government group that looks at the 132 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: threat landscape in New Zealand, have developed some new categories. 133 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: And it looks as though those new categories of people 134 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: who bring together various traditions both sort of less than right, 135 00:08:54,640 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: as you've pointed out, to provide new political view points, 136 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: but they're still extreme. And for me, I think one 137 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: of the things that I've focused on the extreme right, 138 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: but one of the things that strikes me is that 139 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: when you look at the extreme left and the extreme right, 140 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: very often they look quite similar. They look the way 141 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: in which they demonize particular people. They might demonize different people, 142 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: but the way in which they demonize people and the 143 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: way in which they justify are violence towards government. And 144 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: so what we've seen, and I think the US evidence 145 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: over the last two decades. They've got an excellent report 146 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: on what's contributed to tourist attacks and redcalization is that 147 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: seventy percent have come from the extreme right. And yes, 148 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: white supremacists, so they would be classic sort of Nazi 149 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: fascist groups. But the other major category is anti government. 150 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: And so I think what we've seen as a new 151 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: set of as a new set of groups begin to emerge, 152 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: particularly since COVID, in which attacking the government, attacking the 153 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: police sovereign citizens would be a case in point. And 154 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: so we had a we had an activist, Richard Silvill, 155 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: who was sentenced and earlier this year, and he was 156 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: sentenced because he shared objectionable material the christ Church stream 157 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: of the shooting, but because he threatened to kill the 158 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, just Sindra Adourn. And so I think we're 159 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: getting these diverse but mixed set of messages and positions 160 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: that are beginning to emerge. It's much more complex than 161 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: when I first began to look at the extreme right 162 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: some decades ago. 163 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, because it's from my learnings online, it's 164 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: not really right versus left anymore. And even that kind 165 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: of spectrum, you can question whether that's a particularly good 166 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: way of describing these groups. I learned that there are 167 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: factions of the far right actually in conflict with each other, 168 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: so these people called gropers who think MAGA is actually liberal. 169 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: So knowing the kind of colorful array and all of 170 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: the different gray bits in between will probably help us 171 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: moving forward, right. 172 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,479 Speaker 1: It will. It will, but we need to map that landscape. 173 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: So it's changed and constantly changing. So I've talked about 174 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: its diversity, but we're also seeing new positions beginning to emerge, 175 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: which is what you've highlighted. And we do need good 176 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: evidence for this, And can I go to There's a 177 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: private group in New Zealand called Global Risk Consulting Group, 178 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: and their latest assessment, which came out a while ago, 179 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: think says that there's a seventy percent chance that we 180 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: will see a terrorist act in the next five years 181 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: in New Zealand. And I think we've got to take 182 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: that seriously. So one of the things I would dearly 183 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: love us to do is to understand both the international 184 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: but also the domestic landscape here, because I do think 185 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: we face the possibility that because we don't understand all 186 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: of these permutations, somebody's going to come out of somewhere 187 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: that we haven't actually paid much attention to. And that was, 188 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: of course the Royal Commission's concern after the christ shooting, 189 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: that we paid too much attention to Islamic terrorism and 190 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: not enough to write a white supremacy terrorism. 191 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: Jennie Vancier live from my office in the White House 192 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,439 Speaker 3: complex and filling in for somebody who cannot be filled 193 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: in for. But I'm going to try to do my 194 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: best my dear friend, the great Charlie Kirk. The thing is, 195 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: every single person in this building we owe something to Charlie. 196 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: He was a joyful warrior for our country. He loved 197 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 3: America did voted himself tirelessly to making our country a 198 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: better place. He was a critical part of getting Donald 199 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: Trump elected as president, getting me elected as vice president, 200 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 3: and so much of our success over the last seven 201 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: months is due to his efforts, his staffing, his support 202 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: in his friendship. 203 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: I think it's quite interesting in the US if we 204 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 2: go back to the Charlie Kirk shooting. Donald Trump has 205 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: continued to accuse his political opponents of inciting violence and 206 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: placing blame on the left. He said, the problem is 207 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: on the left. It's not on the right. He then 208 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: blamed left wing radicals. Then we have JD. Vance signaling 209 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 2: a growing and powerful minority on the left as well, 210 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: and the very quick to point fingers. And I read 211 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: a comment from Seawan Westwood. He's the director of the 212 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: Polarization Research Lab at Dartmouth College, and he said, in 213 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: the aftermath of the assassination attempt against Donald Trump, say, 214 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 2: leaders on both side of the IOWA called the national 215 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: temperature issuing unified condemnation, and in the way of Kirk's murder, 216 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: the opposite is happening. He said, We're witnessing the cynical 217 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: minting of a martyr and a call to fight instead. 218 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: How important is it that they're taking this route as 219 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: opposed to unifying and calling for condemnation of all political violence. 220 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's really disappointing. And so I 221 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,359 Speaker 1: think there are a number of public commentators and politicians 222 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: in the United States that have asked, we're toning down 223 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: at the temperature around this, because if you look at 224 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: the evidence of President Trump's own agencies, then the major 225 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: threat comes from the far right, not from the far left. 226 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: So this attempt to recategorize where the threat is coming 227 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: from is actually not supported by the evidence. So the 228 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Department Justice has done some really good works around looking 229 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: at where terrorism is likely to come from. And if 230 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: I can give an example, Timothy McVeigh was a sovereign 231 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: citizen and he was involved in the Oklahoma bombing. So 232 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: those major events of terrorism have involved the far right, 233 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: and I just don't think it's helpful, I mean politically, 234 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: but also in terms of how you rebuild trust. You're 235 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: really effectively cementing in some of the divisions and some 236 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: of the hostility and the polarization and the demonization of 237 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: particular groups. And of course we forget or have forgotten, 238 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: and it's not mentioned now that a Democratic senator was 239 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: shot in their own home not so long ago. So 240 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: why the outrage now not the outrage? 241 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: Then? 242 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: It seems very one sided to me and very unfortunate, 243 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: because how do you rebuild when you dig these sort 244 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: of trenches and conduct the sort of warfare. 245 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: How do we catch up to these kind of groups, 246 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: and how do we learn their language online? And how 247 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 2: can New Zealand make sure that nothing similar happens here? 248 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: I think there's some excellent work being done internationally. So 249 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: the International Strategic dialogue and one of the researchers might 250 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: have come Ifort has done some really good work in 251 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: New Zealand. By the way, that research shows that New 252 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: Zealand is accessing far right YouTube or Facebook, I'm not 253 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: sure which sites. Was double the rate of Australian, triple 254 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: the rate of Canada. So why is that the case? 255 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: And I think we need to access some of the 256 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: initiatives and the understanding that's available internationally. The EU has 257 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: done some really good work around what to do in 258 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: terms of identifying the dynamics of a particular country and 259 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: internationally and then what we might do. By the way, 260 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: there are some initiatives in New Zealand which I think 261 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: we need to acknowledge. The New Zealand Security Intelligence Service 262 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: had produced a very good little Booklet's saying No the Signs. 263 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: So there is something that is happening here. There are 264 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: some things that are happening here. But I would really 265 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: like us to pay more attention, fund more activity to 266 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: make sure that we are on top of what's happening. 267 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: And particularly I think we're going to struggle given the 268 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: volume of material that's appearing online and so our agencies, 269 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: our security and intelligence agencies are really swamped by this material. 270 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 1: The amount of material and then trying to identify where 271 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: the potential risks might be coming from just got to 272 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: be a much more community wide response. And I do 273 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,959 Speaker 1: think we need to talk about digital literacy and digital citizenship. 274 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: We've really got to understand what's happening, particularly to young 275 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: people but also others online at the moment and what 276 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: the possibilities and the problems. 277 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Paul. 278 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, Chelsea. Always a pleasure. 279 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 280 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 281 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 282 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 283 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front Page 284 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 285 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.