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Speaker 1: Now I wanted something different. Former Defense Minister Andrew Little

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Speaker 1: has weighed in on the old Orchest Agreement Aucus argument. Rather,

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Speaker 1: he's very much broken ranks with the Labor Party that

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Speaker 1: he was once the leader of. He's told a security

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Speaker 1: conference today that it would be reckless not to at

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Speaker 1: least think about signing up and Andrew Little's with us. Now, Hey, Andrew,

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Speaker 1: why would it be reckless?

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Speaker 2: And I want to said it will be reckless not

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Speaker 2: to think about where we secure a defense technology from.

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Speaker 2: I actually said ORCUST is probably irrelevant because we're only

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Speaker 2: going to get our future defense techton technology needs from

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Speaker 2: our long standing trusted partners. Three of them happened to

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Speaker 2: be the three UCHESST partners. So whether we do it

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Speaker 2: with them together or individually and indeed with others, that's

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Speaker 2: actually the question. I guess what I'm trying to do

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Speaker 2: is focus at debate on what is important, which is

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Speaker 2: we do need to upgrade our defense technology. There are

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Speaker 2: threats in our region that are new and are real,

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Speaker 2: and we have to equip our defense force. Where we

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Speaker 2: get that technology to re equip them is a question,

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Speaker 2: and the net respect UCUS is probably irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: Do you see any downside in signing up to UCUS.

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Speaker 2: Well, but there's nothing to sign up to unless you

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Speaker 2: know Whinston Peters was right a few months ago when

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Speaker 2: you said there is nothing to sign up to. When

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Speaker 2: I spoke to counterpart defense ministers a year ago, none

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Speaker 2: of them could say actually what Aucust entail Uchust pillar

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Speaker 2: two entailed. So there's nothing there. But we have a

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Speaker 2: big question for us. We got threats in our region

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Speaker 2: that we have to deal we be honest about and

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Speaker 2: deal with. And b we've got you know, we're about

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Speaker 2: to make decisions on the next generation of defensive vestments,

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Speaker 2: make sure that they meet our needs.

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Speaker 1: Let me just get this right. But you're basically answering

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Speaker 1: my question by saying it's hard for us to actually

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Speaker 1: say whether there is a downside because we actually don't

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Speaker 1: know what the thing is just yet. We're only in

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Speaker 1: the exploratory phase.

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Speaker 2: Is that right, exactly?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 2: And then and the three Aucust panners can't tell us

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Speaker 2: what Orchest pillar two means or.

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Speaker 1: Entails that information? Do they just themselves not know yet?

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Speaker 2: Well a year ago that didn't know they when I

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Speaker 2: spoke to each of them into which they have a

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Speaker 2: different view about what it means, what it would what

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Speaker 2: it would mean from anybody else participating. I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: a lot has changed. If you listen to what Wiston

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Speaker 2: Peter said back in May, it doesn't feem a lot

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Speaker 2: has changed. I mean the reality is to their orchessite.

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Speaker 2: So like the submarine, part of the whole deal is

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Speaker 2: there's a real possibility that will never happen because US

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Speaker 2: Congress has to agree, and who knows what will happen here.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of these people who say that

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Speaker 1: China is not a threat to us? Do you agree

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Speaker 1: with them?

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Speaker 2: No? I don't. That's one of the point points us

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Speaker 2: making today actually is you know, we have to be

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Speaker 2: honest and say China is a threat. They might be

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Speaker 2: the biggest trading partner, but they are security threats too

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Speaker 2: and we have to gear ourselves up.

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Speaker 1: To that to And are they a threat to New Zealand?

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Speaker 2: Yes, they were there threats generally because of the way

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Speaker 2: they conduct themselves. They don't care about international law, they

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Speaker 2: conduct cyber attexts, they use their diaspora in ways that

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Speaker 2: I know the country does. That is a threat to us.

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Speaker 2: That there might not be a physical threat right now,

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Speaker 2: but when it suits them to do so we're seeing

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Speaker 2: in the South China see they can get aggressive. That

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Speaker 2: is the reality of trying and we have to goal

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Speaker 2: to be honest about that.

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Speaker 1: What are they What is the biggest threat that we

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Speaker 1: face from either I mean are they going to are

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Speaker 1: they going to launch missiles at us? Or are they

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Speaker 1: more likely to just block our ships?

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Speaker 2: It could be any range of things. I mean, they

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Speaker 2: want a presence, they want they want a physical presence

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Speaker 2: in the Pacific. That's what they're working on. In the end,

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Speaker 2: they want to feed their people and they want to

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Speaker 2: export their goods to the world and all the rest

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Speaker 2: of it. That's that's that's the kind of economic side

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Speaker 2: of it. But they're an authoritarian country. They are not

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Speaker 2: a democracy. They're politicians and their community leaders aren't accountable

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Speaker 2: in the way that you know they are in democracies,

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Speaker 2: and the way they conduct themselves. They flatting of international

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Speaker 2: law when it says them to do so. That's the

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Speaker 2: stuff that we've got to be a realistic of that

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Speaker 2: and means that they could turn at any time and

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Speaker 2: taken more aggressive fro dancing into.

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Speaker 1: This, Andrew, when you say I strongly disagree with those

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Speaker 1: who argue that China is benign presidents and poses no threat.

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Speaker 1: Are you talking about Helen Clark and Don.

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Speaker 2: Brash, Well, I'm saying that, or of anybody who says that

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Speaker 2: China is, including them though, well, I think they're things

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Speaker 2: to be what they if they're not saying, they're implying.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I disagree with them.

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Speaker 1: And do you disagree with the stance that the current

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Speaker 1: Labor Party is taking right now on opposing Ucers.

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Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure what the stance is then, I've

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Speaker 2: tried to foster a debate about it. Don't want to

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Speaker 2: have a debate about, you know, what our best interests

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Speaker 2: look like in the future. I think we do need

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Speaker 2: to have more public debate. I think that's a good thing.

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Speaker 2: I just don't think we should be naive about what

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Speaker 2: the reality of these security threats are that we face.

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Speaker 1: It feels like Chippy and David Parker and the Labor

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Speaker 1: Party at the moment are just trying to sort of

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Speaker 1: create a bit of drama, like this current government is

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Speaker 1: not doing anything very different to what they what you

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Speaker 1: guys were doing with Orcus. Is that fair?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, Look at it's hard to know, So

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Speaker 2: I just think there are plenty of people who will

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Speaker 2: also say we need to have a good debate and

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Speaker 2: a good examination of defense national securities. And I agree

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Speaker 2: with that totally. And you know, the governments that pronounced

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Speaker 2: their defense capability plan soon, that's an important document for them.

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Speaker 2: We should have a debate about them. We should have

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Speaker 2: a debate about our our national security threats. And that's

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Speaker 2: where the government really needs to play a role to

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Speaker 2: make sure that that debate is will involved.

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Speaker 1: Now, what you're saying is not particularly helpful to Labor

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Speaker 1: at the moment, given they are opposing anything to do

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Speaker 1: with Aucust. So did you think about it? Are they?

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Speaker 1: Are you aware that you might be annoying them?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the point I've made is that I

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Speaker 2: think August is are relevant because no one knows what

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Speaker 2: August Pillar two is about. So that's why I think

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Speaker 2: the important part of it, the date we have to

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Speaker 2: have is what are our defense and security threats and therefore,

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Speaker 2: what do we need to do about those? Where do

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Speaker 2: we get our defense technology from that equips us to

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Speaker 2: deal with those threats? That fair to walk debates should

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Speaker 2: be about. And in that respect, ORCUS is irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: Andrew, it's good to talk to you. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: made Andrew Little, former defense Minister. For more from Heather

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Speaker 1: Duplessy Allen Drive, Listen live to news talks. It'd be

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