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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Straight down the Middle of.

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Speaker 2: Drum, Dickney scud By, Try these.

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Speaker 1: Pe get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby

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Speaker 1: Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News

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Speaker 1: Talks EDB.

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Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty

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Speaker 2: five years in business. Ellie get Smith with me Liam

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Speaker 2: Napier in London again. As we come down to the

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Speaker 2: weekends test match All Blacks and England. The teams are outs.

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Speaker 2: England name theirs on Tuesday local time. The All Blacks

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Speaker 2: early get today Thursday morning local time. So Liam, the

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Speaker 2: teams are out and let's get into the All Blacks

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Speaker 2: first and foremost couple of surprises there. I know we

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Speaker 2: talked the other day about which way they might go

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Speaker 2: with the back line. They've gone the way we probably suspected, haven't.

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Speaker 2: They were Les defying Anuku on to the left wing.

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Speaker 2: Billy Procter in at center with Caler Clarke obviously out injured.

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Speaker 2: Simon Parker comes back into the team at blindside. Scott

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Speaker 2: Barrett's back as captain obviously and in the second row

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Speaker 2: as well. So three changes to the run on side

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Speaker 2: per should we start with that back line change? It

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Speaker 2: felt like probably the way they're going to go. Not

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Speaker 2: really too many other options that seemed that likely. So

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Speaker 2: what do you make of it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 4: I think we predicted they would go that way. Ricohani

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Speaker 4: was another option. Yeah, they did have options of shifting

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Speaker 4: the back three around a wee bit, but they clearly

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Speaker 4: want to keep McKenzie in that impact role that he's

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Speaker 4: performed so well in recent weeks, and they finished the

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Speaker 4: Test last week against Scotland largely with that back line,

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Speaker 4: with Billy Procter at center alongside Quinti and Lester find

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Speaker 4: a knokle on the wing and look, I think you

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Speaker 4: can get Lester involved from the wing. And I wasn't

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Speaker 4: overly impressive him at center, but he saw an incredibly

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Speaker 4: damaging ball carrier. I do have concerns on the whole

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Speaker 4: for the back three and the way they're going to

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Speaker 4: be peppered with the high ball, but I don't think

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Speaker 4: it really mattered who the All Blacks picked there. That

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Speaker 4: was always going to be an area of potential vulnerability

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Speaker 4: and Anton Lenna Brown coming onto the bench a wee

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Speaker 4: bit of a surprise for me. I probably would have

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Speaker 4: picked Rico. I think he's a bigger body. But Scot

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Speaker 4: Robinson's justification was that Leona Brown covers second and center.

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Speaker 4: But it really does speak to Rico's standing in this

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Speaker 4: team and how far back he's gone in such a

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Speaker 4: short space at time.

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Speaker 2: It does well. Anton Lenna Brown, he said, could cover

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Speaker 2: wing as well, so can Rico, Youani, Rico has played

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Speaker 2: twelve at super level a little bit, going back a

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Speaker 2: couple of years at least now, But it does speak

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Speaker 2: to volumes as how he's fallen in this team, and

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Speaker 2: it feels like he maybe just needs to get to

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Speaker 2: Leinster and we can look and just try and re

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Speaker 2: not revive as Korega, but just a bit of a

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Speaker 2: sea change might be the best thing for him. He's

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Speaker 2: was center for a couple of seasons in this All

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Speaker 2: Blacks team, then moved to the left wing. Didn't really

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Speaker 2: work for him this year. Either he goes to Leinster

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Speaker 2: and it's the remaking of him, or he goes to

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Speaker 2: Linston goes okay, yeah, maybe I am no longer likely

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Speaker 2: to be a Test player and maybe he just goes

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Speaker 2: to Japan and maybe we don't see him. I no, no, no.

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Speaker 2: He's contracted with New zealandery for a wee while, but

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Speaker 2: it feels like he'll probably play next week against Wales.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he will.

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Speaker 4: But there's also the question of how much you actually

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Speaker 4: lose a lot from that test given where Wales are

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Speaker 4: at they cop fifty from Argentina last week. I think

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Speaker 4: they've lost eighteen their last nineteen something like that, very

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Speaker 4: much in rebuild modes. So yeah, Rico's had a very

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Speaker 4: interesting juncture in his career and like you say, going

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Speaker 4: Leinster could help him. I think it will evolve his game,

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Speaker 4: will open his eyes to a different style of footy.

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Speaker 4: Interesting to see where he plays first and foremost and

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Speaker 4: how he handles being out of his comfort zone. That

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Speaker 4: could bring out the best in him. I think getting

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Speaker 4: out of the Blues and an environment he knows very well,

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Speaker 4: it will be a good challenge. And yeah, hopefully that

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Speaker 4: sparks something within him, because he does need to be

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Speaker 4: revived because he has gone back quickly, isn't.

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Speaker 2: He he has I'll be honest, I don't quite get

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Speaker 2: the anti len It Brown selection on the bench. I

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Speaker 2: get the justification. I can accept that.

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Speaker 4: But last year, in November this test, Lennard Brown came

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Speaker 4: off the bench and got a yellow cart.

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Speaker 2: He got a yellow cut in his memory service as well.

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Speaker 2: It just feels, yeah, whether he can't get into the

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Speaker 2: pace of a game or whatever it is when you

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Speaker 2: come off the bench that late, I'm not sure. Trying

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Speaker 2: to Yeah, perhaps, but to me he doesn't suggest impact.

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Speaker 2: He's a very solid play, great link play, great distributor.

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Speaker 2: I just don't see the impact. And I'm not saying,

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Speaker 2: you remember from sixteen to twenty three has to be

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Speaker 2: gung ho, balls to the wall impact sort of player.

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Speaker 2: But I think you do need some of that, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure that Leonard Brown is going to be

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Speaker 2: a game changer.

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Speaker 3: Off the bench. No, I agree.

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Speaker 4: And there's also a massive test for Billy Proctor though,

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Speaker 4: isn't it. He's had I think seven this year he was.

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Speaker 4: Robertson fully backed him on the basis that he had

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Speaker 4: been the forum center in Super Rugby for at least

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Speaker 4: two years. Hasn't made that transition, hasn't stepped up as hope,

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Speaker 4: particularly from an attacking perspective. How do you think he's

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Speaker 4: going to go this weekend.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think this again is a big testa Billy Procter

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Speaker 2: because we haven't seen the best of him at Test

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Speaker 2: level compared to what we know he's capable of at

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Speaker 2: Super rugby level, where he can find time in space,

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Speaker 2: he's a great stepper with the ball, he can get

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Speaker 2: around plays, he can run through. You just team seems

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Speaker 2: hit the right option at super rugby level. I think

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Speaker 2: at Test level, time and space is so restricted and

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Speaker 2: your opportunities come few and far between, and both silky

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Speaker 2: skills and that space you might be afforded at Super

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Speaker 2: rugby level, you just don't get at Test rugby level.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that's real where the question is.

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Speaker 2: And it kind of felt like I was giving a

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Speaker 2: bit of credit the Shaft for sticking with them, but

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Speaker 2: it just wasn't coming from the All Blacks that they

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Speaker 2: kept sticking with them, going at some point it's going

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Speaker 2: to click. At some point it's going to click, and

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Speaker 2: then they had to make a call and it wasn't clicking.

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Speaker 4: I wonder whether it's a size thing with Billy because

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Speaker 4: Test rugby I think, I don't know, this is just

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Speaker 4: my assumption, but players a bigger, right yep, Bigger, faster, stronger,

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Speaker 4: and you mentioned the time in space, but also just

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Speaker 4: the physical contact. So I wonder whether that's why he

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Speaker 4: struggled from an attacking perspective, because you look at the

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Speaker 4: other options that have played well for the All Blacks

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Speaker 4: in the midfield. Quintuplier is a bigger physical presence, didn't

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Speaker 4: have that background as a center, but came out and

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Speaker 4: smashed it in his first start there.

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Speaker 3: Against the Wallabies.

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Speaker 4: Lester when he carries the ball is just hugely destructive.

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Speaker 4: Rico hasn't shown the best of himself, probably not even

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Speaker 4: viewed as a center for the All Blacks now, but

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Speaker 4: another bigger body. So yeah, I do wonder whether Billy

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Speaker 4: has struggled just with the difference of Super Raby to

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Speaker 4: test Ray from a size perspective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you could probably make that argument with Duple.

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Speaker 2: He's not in the match Day twenty three this week,

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Speaker 2: but you know he was getting turnovers for fun at

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Speaker 2: Super Ragby level and if Romerson no doubt that he

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Speaker 2: should be in this All Black squad, but he probably

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Speaker 2: lacks the size and test match breakdowns operate a little

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Speaker 2: bit different. The body's being cleared a little bit bigger.

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Speaker 2: Those opportunities to get turnovers a few and far between.

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Speaker 2: You got to be on the ball that fraction quicker

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Speaker 2: than you have to be at super rugby level. So

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Speaker 2: hasn't felt like he's maybe made that adjustment. And again

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Speaker 2: it might be a size thing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what about the other change in the forward pack?

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Speaker 4: Sumon Parker he was arrested last week. Yeah, I personally

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Speaker 4: felt that maybe he'd come back on the bench this week.

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Speaker 4: I probably would have started Stiti. Think about what he

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Speaker 4: did last November and that breakout performance at Twickenham cut

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Speaker 4: England to shreds offloaded quick feet at the line. I

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Speaker 4: can understand why they pick Parker. Bigger body, he'll add

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Speaker 4: something to the set piece, more grunt to the scrum,

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Speaker 4: particularly of Scott Barrett coming back. He's more of a

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Speaker 4: line out presence as well, and he's strong, work great

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Speaker 4: on the defensive side of the ball. For me, he

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Speaker 4: doesn't offer a lot with ball in hand. And then

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Speaker 4: you've got Setti coming off the bench. But I just

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Speaker 4: feel a little bit like it's a team that's picked

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Speaker 4: not to play like England, but to counter their strengths

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Speaker 4: rather than to play to the All Black strengths, which

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Speaker 4: is how I would view Citti starting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see that point of view. I thought

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Speaker 2: there was a good chance that Parker came back in

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Speaker 2: this week. I think I said on the earlier podcast

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Speaker 2: in the week that you could put him in there

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Speaker 2: and then have Stdi going in for the last thirty

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Speaker 2: and a big advocate of finding that right mix for

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Speaker 2: the bench, because I think the last thirty minutes is

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Speaker 2: just as valuable, if not more now in test rugby

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Speaker 2: than the first save fifty. And it feels like the

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Speaker 2: All Blacks are still searching for that right option at

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Speaker 2: blind Side. It may be satiti over time, but it

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Speaker 2: also feels that they don't have the bench option that

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Speaker 2: they want at the moment. And whether that's because top

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Speaker 2: of I is out injured or whatever it might be,

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Speaker 2: but it feels like, Okay, they've made a decision to go,

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Speaker 2: we don't have the bench option that we would like

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Speaker 2: to back up Wallace. So therefore Wallace is going to

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Speaker 2: go to the bench and we'll go with Simon Parker,

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Speaker 2: who personally I don't think is a bench option. I

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Speaker 2: don't think he adds similar to Antonine at Brownie either,

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Speaker 2: starts and the run on team or he's not playing

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Speaker 2: in the twenty three, so they've gone with that. Wouldn't

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Speaker 2: surprise me to see them make a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a tweak quite early in the second spell, potentially around

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Speaker 2: that because we haven't talked about it, but that the

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Speaker 2: stats for the All Blacks quite bad and we had

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Speaker 2: great evidence of that last week at Murrayfield from minutes

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Speaker 2: forty to sixty, where the game got away from them

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Speaker 2: almost and it's been a continuing factor this year. So

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Speaker 2: they need to shore up that space at some point.

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Speaker 2: So I wonder whether Cititi will get his bought and

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Speaker 2: pass very very early in the second spell and basically

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Speaker 2: have for almost a full half of license to do

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Speaker 2: what you said and do what he did. It took

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Speaker 2: them last year.

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Speaker 4: The Oblecks to be well aware, weren't they of their

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Speaker 4: third quarter struggles Last year? It was their final quarters

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Speaker 4: and that's where they've been really good in the last

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Speaker 4: two weeks in particular, and also against the Wallabies in

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Speaker 4: Perth they finished strongly. So you could argue they have

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Speaker 4: amended or potentially fixed solved their final quarter struggles, but

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Speaker 4: that's transferred to that period after halftime which potentially shines

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Speaker 4: a spotlight on what's happening at halftime, what's been said,

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Speaker 4: the mentality coming out of the sheds, there's a number

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Speaker 4: of questions around that. And yeah, the benches in modern

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Speaker 4: rugby are incredibly important, aren't they. And we've seen that

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Speaker 4: not only with the All Blacks tactics, but with England's

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Speaker 4: They've got six British and Irish Lions on their bench

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Speaker 4: in the six to two split there, and that clearly

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Speaker 4: speaks to the way they have lost the last three

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Speaker 4: games to the All Blacks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. You look back to twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: twenty five six, Yeah, they managed actually come back off that.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't you know it was. It was a blow,

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Speaker 2: but it was largely on their bench. They got that

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes right. Never since then twenty twenty three Dunedin

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Speaker 2: and then Auckland last year, then London last year, it

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Speaker 2: has been that twenty minutes period where the game has

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Speaker 2: got away from the All Blacks have been able to

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Speaker 2: win women last year they were All Blacks at twicken

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Speaker 2: them We're down twenty two fourteen, came back to roll

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Speaker 2: over the top of England in the end and just

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Speaker 2: looking at that bench six two split average of forty

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Speaker 2: caps per player on the bench and got the Pom score,

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Speaker 2: the Pom squad as it's been dubbed, which is great.

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Speaker 2: Luke Carwin, Dicky fifty one caps, Alice Kinge seventy three,

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Speaker 2: Will Stewart fifty one. That's just the front row and

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Speaker 2: then cunning him South has played nearly twenty. Tom Curry's

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Speaker 2: played sixty three. Pollocks the all one out with three,

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Speaker 2: Ben Spencer with twelve. Marcus Smith has somehow I got

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Speaker 2: forty five caps already in his Test career. But it's

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Speaker 2: a very experienced bench and they believe that if they're

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Speaker 2: in the game with twenty five to go, that these

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Speaker 2: are the men that are going to close it out

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Speaker 2: for them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you could argue big time that Alice Skinge, Tom Curry,

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Speaker 4: they've been starters largely throughout their Test careers. Henry Pollock's

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Speaker 4: been you know what is he twenty years old, the

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Speaker 4: absolute revelation for English rugby, big character, impressed during the

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Speaker 4: lines tour, came off the bench last week and scored

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Speaker 4: a try. So he's the epitome of a of an

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Speaker 4: impact player and Marcus Smith real live where if he

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Speaker 4: gets the license. Because the starting English team there's certainly

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Speaker 4: no ambiguity a bit about how they're going to play.

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Speaker 4: They've reinstated George Ford at ten and Freddie Stewart at

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Speaker 4: fullback and with Alex Mitchel a half back, they will

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Speaker 4: hoist to the heavens. I think they kept in four

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Speaker 4: tests this year, they've kept for over one thousand meters,

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Speaker 4: so you don't have to be Einstein to work out

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Speaker 4: how they're going to approach this.

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Speaker 2: Actually going to have a fair bit of catching to

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Speaker 2: do on Saturday and that's gonna be a real acid

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Speaker 2: test of what they can do that back three because

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Speaker 2: Will Jordan hasn't been the safest under the high ball,

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Speaker 2: Leroy Carter, the little man on the wing, lestifying Anoku

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Speaker 2: hasn't played a lot of wing in recent times as well.

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Speaker 2: Feels like an area of vulnerability for the All Blacks

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Speaker 2: because we're seeing against Scotland they haven't been able to

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Speaker 2: get it right for whatever reason. You know, it's been

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Speaker 2: a huge gaping problem in this All Blacks team and

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Speaker 2: again they haven't been able to fix it.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about the few records because they didn't touch

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Speaker 4: it on the earlier pod this week. England haven't beaten

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Speaker 4: the All Blacks anywhere for five years. Since the twenty

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Speaker 4: nineteen World Cup semi final. The All Blacks haven't lost

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Speaker 4: at Twickenham. They're unbeaten them five matches. They're going back

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Speaker 4: to twenty twelve. Steve Borthwick in his three year tenure

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Speaker 4: hasn't been the All Blacks, hasn't been the spring box.

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Speaker 4: What do you put the All Blacks recent dominance of

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Speaker 4: England down to, Because it hasn't been a golden period

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Speaker 4: for All Black reps.

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Speaker 2: No, it hasn't. I think for an English team. They

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Speaker 2: are inconsistent with their selections and perhaps similar to the

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Speaker 2: All Blacks is that they have struggled to build an

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Speaker 2: identity about themselves in a way they want to play,

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Speaker 2: and the All Blacks have just been able to find

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Speaker 2: a moment or two to be the better of them.

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Speaker 2: And you compare the two benches this year to what

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Speaker 2: England rolled out last year, and they've obviously stacked the

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Speaker 2: bench this time around, but it's strong a bench and

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Speaker 2: they rolled out last year when things did fall away

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Speaker 2: for them in the last week. While you know that

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Speaker 2: they have found some key players and positions Fay were Boso,

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Speaker 2: Henry Pollock coming through as well. So the All Blacks

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Speaker 2: haven't certainly dominated England by any stretch of the imagination,

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Speaker 2: but they've just been able to find a key moment

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Speaker 2: here there, hang really tough in games and come out

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Speaker 2: on the right side of the LEGI you think that's

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two when the All Blacks lead twenty five

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Speaker 2: to six against England with nine ten minutes to play

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Speaker 2: and then likes of Fretty Steward managed to score a

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Speaker 2: couple of tries, got to twenty five All probably would

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Speaker 2: have won it if the game had gone on for

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Speaker 2: two or three more minutes. That was as good as

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Speaker 2: they've looked against the All Blacks. But then things have

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Speaker 2: changed again. So it's a really intriguing there's no right

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Speaker 2: art wrong answer, But the best that they've looked at

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Speaker 2: is probably when Eddie Jones was coaching them back into

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two Seal Blacks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's you're right.

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Speaker 4: The identity thing is big for England's You look at

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Speaker 4: teams like Northampton who play quite attacking brand of rugby,

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Speaker 4: brilliant to watch, but that's not really England's DNA or

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Speaker 4: their identity, and they do have some attacking weapons. But

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Speaker 4: Borthwick is a lot more conservative generally as a coach,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's taken him time to develop the

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Speaker 4: style of rugby he wants to play. You see that

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Speaker 4: coming through with the bench there about. That's a clear

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Speaker 4: tactic about where he's going with this team. George Ford

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Speaker 4: is his ten for now. Last year it was Marcus Smith,

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Speaker 4: so I think he's settled on a few things, a

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Speaker 4: lot more sure in his mind how he wants to play,

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Speaker 4: who his men are. So this is the best England

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Speaker 4: have been under Bothwick. I don't think there's any doubt

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Speaker 4: about that. The one nine in a row, that record

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Speaker 4: is not amazing when you dive into it. But there

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Speaker 4: is a real confidence building within this English team and

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Speaker 4: it's an interesting sphere that in fronts this game because

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Speaker 4: this match will define both these team seasons. They're both

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Speaker 4: delicately poised. They're both looking for a significant scalp to

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Speaker 4: justify their improvements, their progress and if the All Black

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Speaker 4: swin pretty much bank the Grand Slam for the first

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Speaker 4: time in fifteen years, and people will say, yep, okay, Raiser,

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Speaker 4: we believe you you're on.

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Speaker 3: The right track.

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Speaker 4: If they don't, it raises a number of questions. And

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Speaker 4: it's the same for England. If their nine match winning

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Speaker 4: run comes to an end at home, people are like, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: we thought you were improving, but you're not quite there yet.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and that's why it feels so pervotal,

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Speaker 2: you know, for both sides this weekend. And I don't

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Speaker 2: think it's going to be I think it's going to

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Speaker 2: be you know, it's probably gonna be one score game

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Speaker 2: either way. It doesn't feel like either team's going to

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Speaker 2: be able to really flex on the opposition. I'd be surprised.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we'll come back and recall on Sundal on Monday

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Speaker 2: and we'll be eating our work, dudes, and there will

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Speaker 2: be a huge blowout. But it feels like with the

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Speaker 2: nerves and the storylines and everything going into this game,

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Speaker 2: it's poised for a grandstand finish and it could be

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Speaker 2: just you know, a moment or two and that's where

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Speaker 2: you do look to the bench and you do go, yep,

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Speaker 2: they're probably you know, stacking it with a lot of

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Speaker 2: Lions plays is a smart move from England. So to

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Speaker 2: the All Blacks, Yeah, again, whether their bench can stand

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Speaker 2: up where they get what they need out of McKenzie

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Speaker 2: Leonard Brown. You know Ratzima has played two minutes on

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Speaker 2: this tour so far. You wouldn't want to lose Roy

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Speaker 2: again that one hundred percent. I mean you look at

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Speaker 2: the All Blacks record with Roy guard over the last

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Speaker 2: couple of years is ridiculous. Didn't play against South Africa

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Speaker 2: this year. I think the only test, and may be

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Speaker 2: wrong about this is the French Test last year in

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Speaker 2: Paris that he's lost since Scott Robinson took over. He

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Speaker 2: is pivotal to this team. So does he stay on

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Speaker 2: for another you know minutes and then you basically give

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Speaker 2: him the last test of the year off next week

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Speaker 2: against Wales.

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Speaker 3: Yep, definite.

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Speaker 2: I mean going to look at It's just it's fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I think there's so many different storylines to the Hollis

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Speaker 2: might unfold this week, right, final thought from New Lam prediction.

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Speaker 4: Please, Yes, this it pains me, Elias, but I've tipped

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Speaker 4: England all week and I'm not gonna waiver. Actually, I

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Speaker 4: just think there was an interesting stat today that there's

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Speaker 4: only five All Black starters returning from this time last

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Speaker 4: year at Twickenham, and I think that speaks to some

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Speaker 4: of the big outs in this team. No Jordi Barrett,

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Speaker 4: no Caleb Clark, Vi Patrick two polo to Tyro Lomax.

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Speaker 4: And this is at a time where the All Blacks

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Speaker 4: don't have strength and depth, and so I don't think

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Speaker 4: this is the best team.

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Speaker 3: I'm not fully convinced by what we've seen the past

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Speaker 3: two weeks.

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Speaker 4: I worry about the fatigue from last week having played

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Speaker 4: half an hour one man short.

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Speaker 3: Look, they could pull it the bag, the All Blacks.

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Speaker 3: But I just feel like.

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Speaker 4: This is potentially going to be England's day, which is

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Speaker 4: going to be a tough pill to swallow. In front

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Speaker 4: of eighty two thousand at Twickenham.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say the All Blacks win by six.

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Speaker 3: So there we go, There we go. Well, I hope

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Speaker 3: you're right.

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Speaker 2: We will see right. That'll do us for Rugby Direct.

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Speaker 2: We will be back early part of next week with

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Speaker 2: a podcast. Will the All Blacks still be searching for

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Speaker 2: a Grand Slam or will we be talking about the

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Speaker 2: ramifications of a loss at Twickenham.

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Speaker 3: But we'll put a pint on this one saying we've

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Speaker 3: got differing predictions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we will, all right done. We'll put a pint

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Speaker 2: of brains. Brains. That's exciting, you had brains. Hopefully it's

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Speaker 2: you shouting, not me right, that'll do us for Rugby

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Speaker 2: Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty five years in business.

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Speaker 1: For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on

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Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

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