1 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:10,547 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend Sport podcast with Jason Vine 2 00:00:10,707 --> 00:00:13,427 Speaker 1: from News Talks edb card for. 3 00:00:13,387 --> 00:00:16,427 Speaker 2: The drup goal Ford gets it over. 4 00:00:16,907 --> 00:00:21,147 Speaker 1: Sticking roller back for Fordno a drunkickno a drug. 5 00:00:20,987 --> 00:00:25,587 Speaker 3: Kick back to back drop goals from George Ford at 6 00:00:25,627 --> 00:00:28,467 Speaker 3: the back end of the first half, bringing them back 7 00:00:28,507 --> 00:00:31,467 Speaker 3: into the game, getting getting them close enough to strike 8 00:00:31,507 --> 00:00:35,147 Speaker 3: after halftime. Let's get an English viewpoint on this occasion. 9 00:00:35,187 --> 00:00:37,907 Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure to welcome in Chris Jones from 10 00:00:37,947 --> 00:00:40,627 Speaker 3: the BBC, who called the game for BBC five Live. Chris, 11 00:00:40,627 --> 00:00:42,547 Speaker 3: thanks for taking our call and for joining us across 12 00:00:42,587 --> 00:00:46,387 Speaker 3: New Zealand. What impressed you the most about England's performance 13 00:00:46,467 --> 00:00:47,467 Speaker 3: at Twickenham today? 14 00:00:48,667 --> 00:00:50,707 Speaker 2: Yeah, I Jason, good to speak to you from the 15 00:00:50,707 --> 00:00:53,067 Speaker 2: streets of twicken Them with the crowds just dispersing after 16 00:00:53,107 --> 00:00:55,867 Speaker 2: a pretty famous day for this England side. I think 17 00:00:56,227 --> 00:00:59,707 Speaker 2: that the bit that will stick around is just the 18 00:00:59,707 --> 00:01:02,707 Speaker 2: way they were able to, you know, keep coming back. 19 00:01:03,267 --> 00:01:05,667 Speaker 2: They started the game well England, then the All Blacks 20 00:01:05,667 --> 00:01:08,547 Speaker 2: had that little or patch at twelve nil. You thought, oh, 21 00:01:08,667 --> 00:01:10,547 Speaker 2: this is going to be another story of kind of 22 00:01:10,627 --> 00:01:14,347 Speaker 2: All Black ruthlessness and English wastefulness. But the way they 23 00:01:14,427 --> 00:01:17,907 Speaker 2: went in at twelve eleven and then just just predominant 24 00:01:17,947 --> 00:01:21,027 Speaker 2: after halftime was a real sign of how this team 25 00:01:21,107 --> 00:01:23,707 Speaker 2: is coming on under Steve Borthwick. George Ford, who had 26 00:01:23,707 --> 00:01:25,707 Speaker 2: a few chances to win the game this time last year, 27 00:01:25,787 --> 00:01:29,427 Speaker 2: was fantastic. The bench didn't even have to make the 28 00:01:29,467 --> 00:01:32,627 Speaker 2: impact they were slated to because England had that healthy lead. 29 00:01:32,667 --> 00:01:34,867 Speaker 2: So big one for England this They needed to take 30 00:01:34,907 --> 00:01:38,667 Speaker 2: a major scalp and they've done it and they roll 31 00:01:38,707 --> 00:01:39,867 Speaker 2: on England. 32 00:01:39,867 --> 00:01:42,587 Speaker 3: Wait, as you say, from twelve nil down to twenty 33 00:01:42,667 --> 00:01:45,907 Speaker 3: five twelve a hid between minutes twenty five and fifty five, 34 00:01:46,147 --> 00:01:50,307 Speaker 3: What did you specifically see change in that period compared 35 00:01:50,307 --> 00:01:51,907 Speaker 3: to the first twenty five minutes of the match. 36 00:01:52,587 --> 00:01:55,867 Speaker 2: Yes, I think England actually did have a good first ten, 37 00:01:55,907 --> 00:01:59,027 Speaker 2: didn't they. They had that opportunity where Sam Underhill couldn't 38 00:01:59,067 --> 00:02:02,307 Speaker 2: quite get it away, They had a hold up over 39 00:02:02,307 --> 00:02:05,427 Speaker 2: the line Alex Coles. They were creating and looking pretty 40 00:02:05,427 --> 00:02:08,027 Speaker 2: lively with ball in hand. I think against it team 41 00:02:08,147 --> 00:02:11,787 Speaker 2: like New Zealand, even though you know, you guys will 42 00:02:11,827 --> 00:02:13,787 Speaker 2: tell me about how frustrating it probably is following the 43 00:02:13,787 --> 00:02:15,427 Speaker 2: All Blacks at the moment because It's kind kind of 44 00:02:15,827 --> 00:02:17,667 Speaker 2: a few steps forward and one step back, because every 45 00:02:17,707 --> 00:02:20,147 Speaker 2: time it looks like they're getting some rhythm, they put 46 00:02:20,427 --> 00:02:21,747 Speaker 2: an inconsistent performance. 47 00:02:21,747 --> 00:02:23,627 Speaker 4: But they're always going to have their patches. 48 00:02:23,707 --> 00:02:25,787 Speaker 2: And you know that ten minutes where they scored those 49 00:02:25,827 --> 00:02:28,507 Speaker 2: two tries, they did look like an all black team 50 00:02:28,507 --> 00:02:30,987 Speaker 2: of ole. But as we know from Chicago, as we 51 00:02:31,027 --> 00:02:33,867 Speaker 2: know from Edinburgh, as we know from Wellington against the Box, 52 00:02:34,387 --> 00:02:38,587 Speaker 2: as we know from from Argentina, away, this all black 53 00:02:38,587 --> 00:02:41,227 Speaker 2: team of vulnerable and there could be periods where you 54 00:02:41,227 --> 00:02:43,107 Speaker 2: can get on top of them. And I think England 55 00:02:43,147 --> 00:02:46,067 Speaker 2: had that face that that would come and just the 56 00:02:46,107 --> 00:02:48,507 Speaker 2: way they were able to keep their composure at twelve 57 00:02:48,627 --> 00:02:51,747 Speaker 2: twelve neel down shows that the side is really developing, 58 00:02:51,867 --> 00:02:55,187 Speaker 2: not just sort of physically and tactically, but mentally as well. 59 00:02:55,227 --> 00:02:57,747 Speaker 2: And yeah, I think I think those two drop goals 60 00:02:57,787 --> 00:03:01,147 Speaker 2: with George Ford, all of his experience come into the 61 00:03:01,147 --> 00:03:04,787 Speaker 2: fore there and they just managed to go into halftime 62 00:03:04,827 --> 00:03:07,907 Speaker 2: with some momentum. And that's been really frustrating for Scott 63 00:03:07,947 --> 00:03:11,027 Speaker 2: Robertson because of twelve mil it looked like the All 64 00:03:11,067 --> 00:03:14,307 Speaker 2: Blacks could have put the game away and ultimately that 65 00:03:14,347 --> 00:03:16,947 Speaker 2: in the end, they were well beaten because England, if 66 00:03:16,987 --> 00:03:18,787 Speaker 2: you look at the game apart from that period what 67 00:03:18,947 --> 00:03:22,027 Speaker 2: ten ten to twenty five, the rest of it was 68 00:03:22,147 --> 00:03:24,787 Speaker 2: pretty much mainly dominated by England. 69 00:03:24,947 --> 00:03:27,587 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, You mentioned him there with his drop goals, 70 00:03:27,627 --> 00:03:31,507 Speaker 3: but how intigral was George Ford to this victory across 71 00:03:31,547 --> 00:03:32,347 Speaker 3: the entire edge. 72 00:03:33,227 --> 00:03:36,067 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting to look up the makeup of 73 00:03:36,147 --> 00:03:38,587 Speaker 2: the England back line. There's a lot of good talented players, 74 00:03:38,587 --> 00:03:42,507 Speaker 2: but many favor Bosa has not gone many caps, not 75 00:03:42,627 --> 00:03:46,267 Speaker 2: as Tom Roebuck. Freddie Stewart's a bit more experienced, as 76 00:03:46,307 --> 00:03:48,467 Speaker 2: is Marcus Smith when he came on, but Fraser Dinghals 77 00:03:48,947 --> 00:03:50,667 Speaker 2: at the start of his international journey. 78 00:03:50,707 --> 00:03:51,907 Speaker 4: Only Laurence's been around for a bit. 79 00:03:51,947 --> 00:03:54,027 Speaker 2: But there aren't you know, there aren't Henry Slades and 80 00:03:54,067 --> 00:03:57,507 Speaker 2: Manitor Langy's and Owen Farrell's, Johnny May's and Nancy Watson's 81 00:03:57,547 --> 00:04:00,467 Speaker 2: and players with fifty sixty seventy caps in there. So 82 00:04:00,827 --> 00:04:04,387 Speaker 2: having someone like Ford's who's able to just get that 83 00:04:04,707 --> 00:04:08,027 Speaker 2: that pulse of a game really well, you know, he's 84 00:04:08,387 --> 00:04:11,827 Speaker 2: He's done that his whole career. He's able to, i think, 85 00:04:11,867 --> 00:04:14,547 Speaker 2: manipulate the scoreboard more than ever. We saw in Marseille 86 00:04:14,587 --> 00:04:16,307 Speaker 2: at the World Cup a couple of years ago when 87 00:04:16,307 --> 00:04:19,187 Speaker 2: England were under the pump against Argentina and man down 88 00:04:19,187 --> 00:04:21,107 Speaker 2: his drop goals changed the whole course of the game. 89 00:04:21,147 --> 00:04:24,267 Speaker 2: And you know, I sit in commentary on BBC Radio 90 00:04:24,307 --> 00:04:27,147 Speaker 2: with guys like Paul Grayson and Matt Dawson who came 91 00:04:27,187 --> 00:04:28,947 Speaker 2: from an era of English rugby where they used to 92 00:04:28,947 --> 00:04:31,347 Speaker 2: just kill teams with drop goals, and they've gone out 93 00:04:31,387 --> 00:04:34,147 Speaker 2: the game so much then they come back at World Cups, 94 00:04:34,187 --> 00:04:36,147 Speaker 2: have a bit of researchers, then go out again and 95 00:04:36,187 --> 00:04:38,307 Speaker 2: teams always kick for the corner or they try and 96 00:04:38,307 --> 00:04:40,507 Speaker 2: go through the phases. But what a weapon it is 97 00:04:40,507 --> 00:04:44,387 Speaker 2: if you can just hit teams with threes when they 98 00:04:44,387 --> 00:04:46,227 Speaker 2: haven't done too much wrong. And I think that's what 99 00:04:46,267 --> 00:04:51,307 Speaker 2: will or Scott robertson might Field tonight is. Actually when 100 00:04:51,387 --> 00:04:53,267 Speaker 2: twelve miler up there, there wasn't a huge amount of New 101 00:04:53,267 --> 00:04:56,107 Speaker 2: Zealand did wrong, but the way England were able to 102 00:04:56,187 --> 00:04:57,747 Speaker 2: hit them with those two blows to go in twelve 103 00:04:57,747 --> 00:05:00,387 Speaker 2: to eleven and then just just just dominate after halftime 104 00:05:01,227 --> 00:05:02,467 Speaker 2: or contributed to the English win. 105 00:05:03,027 --> 00:05:05,547 Speaker 3: Where do you think England are at two years out 106 00:05:05,547 --> 00:05:06,627 Speaker 3: from the next world up. 107 00:05:07,507 --> 00:05:09,747 Speaker 2: Good place for sure. I mean I would say there 108 00:05:09,747 --> 00:05:11,667 Speaker 2: are still areas they can improve. And that was Steve 109 00:05:11,707 --> 00:05:15,427 Speaker 2: Borthwick's message tonight. He was far from well. He was satisfied. 110 00:05:15,427 --> 00:05:17,587 Speaker 2: He was dead shaff, don't get me wrong, But he 111 00:05:17,667 --> 00:05:20,027 Speaker 2: wasn't saying we're a finished article. He knows that that 112 00:05:20,027 --> 00:05:23,347 Speaker 2: the England team is still a bit off. They got 113 00:05:23,347 --> 00:05:25,867 Speaker 2: picked apart at line out time. There may be a 114 00:05:25,867 --> 00:05:30,347 Speaker 2: heavy duty ball carrier or two down, one or two 115 00:05:30,387 --> 00:05:32,947 Speaker 2: other areas where if you were being really ruthless you 116 00:05:32,947 --> 00:05:34,867 Speaker 2: would say, oh, they could do with an extra body there, 117 00:05:34,947 --> 00:05:37,907 Speaker 2: or an extra a certain type of player here. But 118 00:05:38,067 --> 00:05:41,107 Speaker 2: on the whole, if you'd said to an England fan, 119 00:05:41,227 --> 00:05:45,027 Speaker 2: an England player, after what happened in Dublin, they were 120 00:05:45,147 --> 00:05:48,747 Speaker 2: they started the Six Nations, were really chasing defeat away 121 00:05:48,747 --> 00:05:52,187 Speaker 2: in Ireland second half blown away and you thought, oh, 122 00:05:52,587 --> 00:05:56,107 Speaker 2: France next, Scotland next, Where do England go from here? 123 00:05:56,147 --> 00:05:58,747 Speaker 2: Well they've won the ten since then, which is massive 124 00:05:58,787 --> 00:06:01,387 Speaker 2: testaments to the group, massive testament to Steve Borthwick and 125 00:06:01,427 --> 00:06:04,707 Speaker 2: his coaching team. He's made a few changes to his backgroom. 126 00:06:04,747 --> 00:06:07,147 Speaker 2: I know that's a big thing in All Blacks the 127 00:06:07,187 --> 00:06:09,267 Speaker 2: moment because there's been a bit of a revolving door 128 00:06:09,307 --> 00:06:10,587 Speaker 2: around the Robertson regime. 129 00:06:10,787 --> 00:06:12,107 Speaker 4: It's been similar with Borthwick. 130 00:06:12,347 --> 00:06:15,867 Speaker 2: People have come, they've been coming and going, but he's 131 00:06:15,907 --> 00:06:18,107 Speaker 2: now got a pretty settled coaching team that looks in 132 00:06:18,187 --> 00:06:20,387 Speaker 2: for the long haul and I think you're seeing that 133 00:06:20,427 --> 00:06:22,907 Speaker 2: with it with with with England's play. Look, there's still 134 00:06:22,907 --> 00:06:24,907 Speaker 2: nowhere near the box. I don't think many teams are. 135 00:06:25,987 --> 00:06:27,987 Speaker 2: England would be up there as favorites to win the 136 00:06:28,027 --> 00:06:30,307 Speaker 2: Six Nations, but no guarantee at all. They've got to 137 00:06:30,307 --> 00:06:32,747 Speaker 2: go to Paris, which is a really tough place to go. 138 00:06:33,187 --> 00:06:35,107 Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't think any England fans leaving and 139 00:06:35,227 --> 00:06:37,707 Speaker 2: thinking this is this is suddenly you know work up here, 140 00:06:37,867 --> 00:06:39,387 Speaker 2: here we come. I think there's still a bit of 141 00:06:39,387 --> 00:06:42,027 Speaker 2: a way to go. But for England to be ten 142 00:06:42,107 --> 00:06:43,947 Speaker 2: wins in a row, given where they've been over the 143 00:06:44,027 --> 00:06:45,467 Speaker 2: last few years, a brilliant effort. 144 00:06:45,907 --> 00:06:48,067 Speaker 3: And for New Zealand. You were here last year at 145 00:06:48,107 --> 00:06:50,627 Speaker 3: the start of Scott Robertson tenure. You watch them again 146 00:06:50,667 --> 00:06:53,587 Speaker 3: at the end of last year again today, how do 147 00:06:53,587 --> 00:06:55,627 Speaker 3: you assist where the All Blacks are at the midway 148 00:06:55,627 --> 00:06:56,907 Speaker 3: point last World Cup cycle. 149 00:06:57,507 --> 00:07:00,387 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard that they're not in a place they'd 150 00:07:00,387 --> 00:07:04,627 Speaker 2: want to be. Weirdly, I just I just still still 151 00:07:04,667 --> 00:07:06,587 Speaker 2: not sure what type of team they are. I think 152 00:07:06,587 --> 00:07:08,307 Speaker 2: they play a load of rugby and a weird part 153 00:07:08,307 --> 00:07:11,067 Speaker 2: of the pitch. They reminded me a bit of what 154 00:07:11,427 --> 00:07:13,267 Speaker 2: the Wallabies were trying to do a couple of years ago, 155 00:07:13,267 --> 00:07:15,427 Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago at Twickenham, kind of feeding 156 00:07:15,427 --> 00:07:17,627 Speaker 2: the English defense by playing a lot of face rugby 157 00:07:17,667 --> 00:07:18,627 Speaker 2: around the halfway line. 158 00:07:18,867 --> 00:07:21,107 Speaker 4: They don't seem to have that real connection in their face. 159 00:07:21,107 --> 00:07:23,107 Speaker 2: Played the great All Blacks team out of the past, 160 00:07:23,107 --> 00:07:25,747 Speaker 2: where you'd have little tip ons from Brodier Italic and 161 00:07:25,787 --> 00:07:29,267 Speaker 2: players really hitting the line at speed. There's an issue 162 00:07:29,267 --> 00:07:31,947 Speaker 2: at tennis and there Boden had an off day, maybe 163 00:07:31,947 --> 00:07:34,307 Speaker 2: more soon to fall back. His line kicking was all 164 00:07:34,307 --> 00:07:37,667 Speaker 2: over the place. Damian McKenzie is a is a world beater, 165 00:07:37,827 --> 00:07:41,187 Speaker 2: but how does he how is he deployed? Are they 166 00:07:41,267 --> 00:07:44,307 Speaker 2: just killing time waiting for Richie Muwanga. You would really 167 00:07:44,307 --> 00:07:46,547 Speaker 2: hope by now there had been a younger tent coming 168 00:07:46,627 --> 00:07:49,107 Speaker 2: through to put pressure on Boden, to put pressure on 169 00:07:49,147 --> 00:07:52,507 Speaker 2: McKenzie to put pressure on Wanger because Muwanga can't just 170 00:07:52,547 --> 00:07:53,947 Speaker 2: go away to Japan for a few years and then 171 00:07:54,027 --> 00:07:56,027 Speaker 2: just walk back into the shirt. But that's what's looking 172 00:07:56,147 --> 00:07:59,187 Speaker 2: quite likely. So a confusing team because at times they 173 00:07:59,187 --> 00:08:03,587 Speaker 2: play rugby from the gods, but in tiny little patches. Yeah, 174 00:08:03,627 --> 00:08:07,627 Speaker 2: and on the whole it's hard to see major progression 175 00:08:07,627 --> 00:08:10,987 Speaker 2: in the in the sort of twenty six test matches 176 00:08:11,307 --> 00:08:14,067 Speaker 2: Robertson's had. I think that it was a very good 177 00:08:14,067 --> 00:08:16,467 Speaker 2: series win against England in hindsight, given that had no 178 00:08:16,547 --> 00:08:19,267 Speaker 2: time together, but twenty six tests down the track, you 179 00:08:19,307 --> 00:08:22,147 Speaker 2: may have wanted a bit more development. But having said that, 180 00:08:22,187 --> 00:08:24,467 Speaker 2: this England team have only really started to hit their 181 00:08:24,507 --> 00:08:28,267 Speaker 2: straps under Steve Worthwick about thirty thirty five test matches 182 00:08:28,747 --> 00:08:31,307 Speaker 2: matches into his regimes. So still a long way to 183 00:08:31,347 --> 00:08:34,187 Speaker 2: go to the World Cup twenty seven, and you still 184 00:08:34,267 --> 00:08:36,867 Speaker 2: would never bet against New Zealand being big consenders for 185 00:08:36,907 --> 00:08:37,427 Speaker 2: that tournament. 186 00:08:37,467 --> 00:08:39,827 Speaker 3: All right, we'll take some consolation from their grade. Skajer 187 00:08:39,907 --> 00:08:43,187 Speaker 3: and tight Chris and joy everything in Southwest London. 188 00:08:43,227 --> 00:08:45,227 Speaker 4: Man, good to see, good chat. 189 00:08:45,027 --> 00:08:46,947 Speaker 3: Good on youay, thanks to day Chris Jones, the wonderful 190 00:08:47,027 --> 00:08:49,027 Speaker 3: Chris Jones joining us out of the BBC in. 191 00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:53,987 Speaker 1: London for more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine. Listen 192 00:08:54,067 --> 00:08:57,307 Speaker 1: live to news talks it'd be weekends from midday or 193 00:08:57,387 --> 00:08:59,307 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on I Had Radio