1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,933 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,653 --> 00:00:17,372 Speaker 2: News Talks ed B. 4 00:00:17,533 --> 00:00:20,453 Speaker 3: Can we company, open Star Technologies, has taken a serious 5 00:00:20,493 --> 00:00:24,212 Speaker 3: step forward in the global race towards nuclear fusion. Backed 6 00:00:24,253 --> 00:00:27,093 Speaker 3: by thirty five million dollars in government funding, they've successfully 7 00:00:27,133 --> 00:00:31,573 Speaker 3: levitated a halftime super conducting magnet confining a cloud of 8 00:00:31,693 --> 00:00:34,812 Speaker 3: ultra hot plasma. Sounds very technical, So what does that 9 00:00:34,853 --> 00:00:37,412 Speaker 3: all really mean and what could be the future of 10 00:00:37,453 --> 00:00:42,013 Speaker 3: this technology? Dot Ratu Matida joins us. Now, Ratu, very 11 00:00:42,053 --> 00:00:42,772 Speaker 3: good afternoon to you. 12 00:00:43,492 --> 00:00:44,812 Speaker 2: Yeah, good afternoon to Utah. 13 00:00:45,213 --> 00:00:47,333 Speaker 4: If you don't mind, it's also Matt here as well, 14 00:00:47,373 --> 00:00:50,053 Speaker 4: if you don't mind. Let's get right back to the 15 00:00:50,213 --> 00:00:53,333 Speaker 4: very basics, because if we're on a very few people 16 00:00:53,653 --> 00:00:56,693 Speaker 4: know anything about this really, So if we take it 17 00:00:56,773 --> 00:00:59,693 Speaker 4: right back to the basics, what is the difference between 18 00:00:59,853 --> 00:01:00,773 Speaker 4: fission and fusion. 19 00:01:02,893 --> 00:01:05,253 Speaker 2: So it's a really beautiful saying that our day here 20 00:01:05,253 --> 00:01:09,133 Speaker 2: in Wellington after a lot of very bad weather, and 21 00:01:09,293 --> 00:01:12,493 Speaker 2: that sounds kind of unrelated, but the whole point of 22 00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:18,893 Speaker 2: fission versus fusion is in one process, you're taking the 23 00:01:18,973 --> 00:01:23,172 Speaker 2: atoms large atoms and you're splitting them apart, you're fissioning 24 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:25,893 Speaker 2: them into two pieces. And if you take a big 25 00:01:25,932 --> 00:01:27,932 Speaker 2: atom and you do that, that releases a lot of energy. 26 00:01:28,253 --> 00:01:32,413 Speaker 2: That's what people typically consider to be nuclear power, and 27 00:01:32,453 --> 00:01:35,053 Speaker 2: it's something that New Zealand moved away from a very 28 00:01:35,053 --> 00:01:38,733 Speaker 2: long time ago. But I referenced for sunny day because 29 00:01:38,932 --> 00:01:41,452 Speaker 2: as you ask a question and I look over Wellington Harbor, 30 00:01:42,493 --> 00:01:46,092 Speaker 2: all of a suddenlight that's heading what I see. That's 31 00:01:46,173 --> 00:01:50,853 Speaker 2: all from fusion. That happens in our sun and every 32 00:01:51,093 --> 00:01:53,893 Speaker 2: star of the night sky. And so in fusion, you're 33 00:01:53,893 --> 00:01:58,373 Speaker 2: doing the opposite. You're taking small atoms and you're forcing 34 00:01:58,413 --> 00:02:00,773 Speaker 2: them to get the typically with an enormous amount of 35 00:02:00,813 --> 00:02:03,733 Speaker 2: pressure and heat, and when you can get them to 36 00:02:03,893 --> 00:02:06,813 Speaker 2: actually get close enough to merge so in the sun, 37 00:02:07,053 --> 00:02:10,972 Speaker 2: it merges hydrogen into helium and then eventually the helium 38 00:02:11,093 --> 00:02:14,253 Speaker 2: gets merged into carbon. This is also where a lot 39 00:02:14,253 --> 00:02:17,533 Speaker 2: of the elements come from. But that process releases energy. 40 00:02:17,733 --> 00:02:20,653 Speaker 2: That energy keeps the sun hot, and because the sun 41 00:02:20,693 --> 00:02:23,452 Speaker 2: is hot, we we get a beautiful sunny day down 42 00:02:23,453 --> 00:02:24,093 Speaker 2: here in willing To. 43 00:02:24,773 --> 00:02:27,893 Speaker 4: So the sun stars are doing that all the time. 44 00:02:28,213 --> 00:02:30,213 Speaker 4: Why is it so hard to achieve on Earth. 45 00:02:31,133 --> 00:02:35,693 Speaker 2: The Sun is very very big, and so I think 46 00:02:36,093 --> 00:02:39,773 Speaker 2: we obviously want to build machines that replicate the process 47 00:02:39,773 --> 00:02:42,653 Speaker 2: of the Sun, but we actually have a harder job 48 00:02:42,773 --> 00:02:45,333 Speaker 2: than the Sun. So if you were to take if 49 00:02:45,373 --> 00:02:48,213 Speaker 2: you could reach your hand into the Sun and just 50 00:02:48,373 --> 00:02:53,813 Speaker 2: grab a clump of that fusing sun plasma, it would 51 00:02:53,853 --> 00:02:57,053 Speaker 2: be very hot. You'd vaporize your hand, obviously, But actually 52 00:02:57,173 --> 00:03:00,613 Speaker 2: there's only the fusion that's happening in that clump of 53 00:03:00,693 --> 00:03:03,773 Speaker 2: sun is only the same amount of energy production as 54 00:03:03,893 --> 00:03:06,653 Speaker 2: what your compost been at home is doing. So the 55 00:03:06,693 --> 00:03:11,373 Speaker 2: bacteria eating, you know, or leftovers metabolizing and getting energy 56 00:03:11,373 --> 00:03:13,813 Speaker 2: out of that, it's about the same amount of energy 57 00:03:13,853 --> 00:03:17,053 Speaker 2: per kind of clump of stuff that you would grab out. 58 00:03:17,252 --> 00:03:20,453 Speaker 2: And so for some actually a very bad fusion reactor. 59 00:03:20,573 --> 00:03:24,093 Speaker 2: It just happens to be very, very very big, And 60 00:03:24,173 --> 00:03:25,933 Speaker 2: so if we want to do this on Earth, we 61 00:03:25,972 --> 00:03:27,893 Speaker 2: don't just have to replicate the Sun. We actually have 62 00:03:27,972 --> 00:03:31,693 Speaker 2: to do considerably better. So they're actually building machines that 63 00:03:31,773 --> 00:03:35,093 Speaker 2: are economic, that are worth building, that give us more 64 00:03:35,573 --> 00:03:38,133 Speaker 2: in terms of the energy they produce and they cost, 65 00:03:38,453 --> 00:03:40,933 Speaker 2: and the various materials and labor that we need to 66 00:03:40,933 --> 00:03:43,452 Speaker 2: do are put in in order to build them. 67 00:03:43,853 --> 00:03:46,733 Speaker 3: It's incredible. So that approach that you're taking. Can you 68 00:03:46,773 --> 00:03:50,093 Speaker 3: speak a little bit more about that, these gigantic magnets 69 00:03:50,133 --> 00:03:51,413 Speaker 3: you're using in what you're trying to. 70 00:03:51,373 --> 00:03:55,493 Speaker 2: Achieve, certainly so amount analogy where you stick your hand 71 00:03:55,573 --> 00:03:57,693 Speaker 2: into the sun and grab it. Like. The first problem 72 00:03:57,733 --> 00:04:02,173 Speaker 2: is you can't do that because these plasmas that are 73 00:04:02,213 --> 00:04:07,733 Speaker 2: these really superheated materials are too hot to touch with 74 00:04:07,813 --> 00:04:13,333 Speaker 2: anything solophysical. And so one of the primary approaches to 75 00:04:13,453 --> 00:04:17,493 Speaker 2: building fusion reactors has been to build very powerful magnets. 76 00:04:18,133 --> 00:04:21,373 Speaker 2: And with those magnets you can effectively hold on to 77 00:04:21,493 --> 00:04:26,373 Speaker 2: these plasmas without making physical contact with them. And that way, 78 00:04:26,493 --> 00:04:29,453 Speaker 2: not only do you not vaporize all your equipment once 79 00:04:29,493 --> 00:04:32,173 Speaker 2: the plasma is hot enough, but you can actually get 80 00:04:32,213 --> 00:04:35,493 Speaker 2: the plasma hot at all. You know. It's like people 81 00:04:35,533 --> 00:04:38,253 Speaker 2: often worry about the equipment, but actually getting the plasma 82 00:04:38,253 --> 00:04:40,413 Speaker 2: hot and the first place is very hard if it 83 00:04:40,453 --> 00:04:44,093 Speaker 2: makes contact with anything. And so once it's levitating this 84 00:04:44,253 --> 00:04:47,693 Speaker 2: is the plasma that is and not touching anything, you 85 00:04:47,733 --> 00:04:49,893 Speaker 2: can then go through the process of heating it up 86 00:04:50,253 --> 00:04:53,533 Speaker 2: and we just use microwaves like you know, your microwave 87 00:04:53,533 --> 00:04:54,213 Speaker 2: other at home. 88 00:04:54,893 --> 00:04:57,733 Speaker 4: And how hot are we talking here for this levitating plasma. 89 00:04:59,253 --> 00:05:01,333 Speaker 2: So to get fusion actually going, you need to get 90 00:05:01,333 --> 00:05:05,733 Speaker 2: to between one hundred and one hundred and fifty million degrees, 91 00:05:06,453 --> 00:05:10,293 Speaker 2: so very very hot. And for reference, it is also 92 00:05:10,453 --> 00:05:13,893 Speaker 2: much hotter than the sun. And that's a reflection of 93 00:05:14,453 --> 00:05:17,893 Speaker 2: we need to build these machines to be efficient and economic, 94 00:05:18,213 --> 00:05:21,213 Speaker 2: not just replicating a science project. 95 00:05:21,853 --> 00:05:25,892 Speaker 4: We're speaking to doctor Ratu Mataira, the CEO of Open 96 00:05:25,893 --> 00:05:29,413 Speaker 4: Star Technologies, So speaking of building these machines, how come 97 00:05:30,013 --> 00:05:33,773 Speaker 4: you can attempt to do this in little old New Zealand. 98 00:05:35,933 --> 00:05:39,493 Speaker 2: So there's two types of expertise that go into building 99 00:05:39,533 --> 00:05:43,333 Speaker 2: a company like this. One is the kind of scientists 100 00:05:43,493 --> 00:05:46,093 Speaker 2: who really study how these plasmas work and how they 101 00:05:46,133 --> 00:05:48,693 Speaker 2: interact with magnetic fields, how you heat them up, how 102 00:05:48,733 --> 00:05:51,253 Speaker 2: you hold onto them, that kind of thing. Now, in 103 00:05:51,293 --> 00:05:55,573 Speaker 2: all honesty, that is not science that New Zealand has 104 00:05:55,613 --> 00:05:58,773 Speaker 2: done very much of ever, so we don't have lots 105 00:05:58,773 --> 00:06:01,853 Speaker 2: of these plasma physicists running around. There are a few, 106 00:06:03,213 --> 00:06:07,613 Speaker 2: but not probably enough to justify. But what we are 107 00:06:07,813 --> 00:06:11,933 Speaker 2: absolutely world class at a bit like where world class 108 00:06:11,933 --> 00:06:18,213 Speaker 2: with carbon fiber and making yachts and sailing boats is 109 00:06:18,453 --> 00:06:22,133 Speaker 2: superconducting magnets. So when we say build a really powerful magnet, 110 00:06:22,933 --> 00:06:26,773 Speaker 2: we take a new type of material called high temperature 111 00:06:26,853 --> 00:06:31,813 Speaker 2: superconductor and we wind that into many, many, many turns 112 00:06:31,893 --> 00:06:35,813 Speaker 2: that can carry electrical current. That electric current produces a 113 00:06:35,853 --> 00:06:40,373 Speaker 2: magnetic field, and the science and engineering of how to 114 00:06:40,453 --> 00:06:44,213 Speaker 2: do that, and the expertise we have one of the 115 00:06:44,293 --> 00:06:48,413 Speaker 2: single largest concentrations of talent in the world on how 116 00:06:48,413 --> 00:06:52,613 Speaker 2: to make magnets like that, and also quite quite innovatively. 117 00:06:53,013 --> 00:06:55,013 Speaker 4: How come yeah, well, particularly in New Zealand, do we 118 00:06:55,053 --> 00:06:56,053 Speaker 4: have those expertise? 119 00:06:57,613 --> 00:07:00,613 Speaker 2: New Zealand's is a small place, right and so we 120 00:07:00,693 --> 00:07:04,573 Speaker 2: always question, you know, could we possibly do everything? And 121 00:07:04,653 --> 00:07:07,853 Speaker 2: I think everybody found a rocket industry just as surprising. 122 00:07:09,013 --> 00:07:11,893 Speaker 2: But when we do decide to do things, there's no 123 00:07:12,013 --> 00:07:15,293 Speaker 2: reason why we can't be the best. And so we 124 00:07:15,373 --> 00:07:17,893 Speaker 2: probably can't do everything. You know, I wouldn't be a 125 00:07:17,893 --> 00:07:22,253 Speaker 2: proponent of New Zealand trying to have every single industry 126 00:07:22,253 --> 00:07:24,933 Speaker 2: on Earth. But once we decide to do something, we 127 00:07:25,013 --> 00:07:28,293 Speaker 2: can absolutely be the best of it. And so the 128 00:07:28,333 --> 00:07:32,653 Speaker 2: magnet specialty that popped up popped out of a research lab. 129 00:07:33,293 --> 00:07:39,413 Speaker 2: Originally the DSIR Dispartment of Scientific Industrial Research in Seaview 130 00:07:40,013 --> 00:07:47,373 Speaker 2: in Wellington, and they discovered the crystals that make these superconductors. 131 00:07:47,533 --> 00:07:51,053 Speaker 2: And so we're talking lab experiments. You're making tiny little 132 00:07:51,053 --> 00:07:54,693 Speaker 2: flakes of material. You want to understand what you've made. 133 00:07:55,413 --> 00:07:57,253 Speaker 2: That kind of thing, and that was happening in the 134 00:07:57,333 --> 00:08:00,213 Speaker 2: late eighties and eventually you get to the point where 135 00:08:00,653 --> 00:08:03,453 Speaker 2: you've got enough of the technology. And this is decades 136 00:08:03,493 --> 00:08:06,893 Speaker 2: of work, right, going step by step, but maturing at 137 00:08:06,893 --> 00:08:10,333 Speaker 2: every stage. And so so how we became the best 138 00:08:10,573 --> 00:08:14,813 Speaker 2: at this is a lot of work that happened before 139 00:08:14,853 --> 00:08:18,173 Speaker 2: I was even born, before I joined as a PhD student, 140 00:08:19,893 --> 00:08:22,773 Speaker 2: And you get to stand atop the shoulders of giants 141 00:08:22,933 --> 00:08:26,013 Speaker 2: and super proud that that happened here and we get 142 00:08:26,013 --> 00:08:27,173 Speaker 2: to be a beneficiary of it. 143 00:08:27,973 --> 00:08:32,173 Speaker 3: We are speaking to doctor Ratu Matida, the CEO of 144 00:08:32,293 --> 00:08:33,773 Speaker 3: Open Star Technologies. 145 00:08:34,373 --> 00:08:37,933 Speaker 4: Can you talk us through this latest milestone of yours 146 00:08:37,973 --> 00:08:39,493 Speaker 4: and why it's so significant. 147 00:08:40,372 --> 00:08:45,493 Speaker 2: So this milestone is effectively us building a really powerful 148 00:08:45,732 --> 00:08:49,933 Speaker 2: superconducting magnet and actually levitating that magnet and then putting 149 00:08:50,012 --> 00:08:53,413 Speaker 2: plasmas around it. Now, this is quite unique. Lots of 150 00:08:53,852 --> 00:08:56,892 Speaker 2: ways of doing fusion rely on having a powerful magnet, 151 00:08:57,213 --> 00:08:59,372 Speaker 2: but they don't have to levitate it. They can kind 152 00:08:59,372 --> 00:09:01,573 Speaker 2: of just build a big machine. The magnet sits there 153 00:09:01,693 --> 00:09:05,412 Speaker 2: and you hold the plasmas insider magnet. Our machine is 154 00:09:05,492 --> 00:09:08,133 Speaker 2: kind of different. It actually ends up with a magnet 155 00:09:08,453 --> 00:09:11,492 Speaker 2: side the plasma kind of pulling in from the inside 156 00:09:11,573 --> 00:09:14,773 Speaker 2: to keep the plasma contained. Right off here is that 157 00:09:14,852 --> 00:09:18,093 Speaker 2: you now have a magnet that has to be levitated 158 00:09:18,612 --> 00:09:22,492 Speaker 2: and disconnected from all of the normal support systems you 159 00:09:22,533 --> 00:09:25,773 Speaker 2: would rely on to make that magnet keep operating. So 160 00:09:25,813 --> 00:09:28,413 Speaker 2: it has to be cryogenically cooled, It needs to have 161 00:09:28,453 --> 00:09:31,573 Speaker 2: a thousand amps of current flowing through it. We need 162 00:09:31,612 --> 00:09:34,973 Speaker 2: diagnostics on the magnet to see how it's going, we 163 00:09:35,012 --> 00:09:37,973 Speaker 2: need batteries on board to keep it running. And so 164 00:09:39,012 --> 00:09:42,813 Speaker 2: getting that all completed and showing that you can get plasmas. 165 00:09:42,813 --> 00:09:45,213 Speaker 2: You can levitate the magnet. Sure it weighs half a ton, 166 00:09:45,372 --> 00:09:47,213 Speaker 2: but like you just get the numbers right and you 167 00:09:47,252 --> 00:09:51,173 Speaker 2: can do it was actually something that our industry, the 168 00:09:51,252 --> 00:09:56,573 Speaker 2: fusion industry, kind of globally effectively thought was impossible to engineer. 169 00:09:58,132 --> 00:10:02,013 Speaker 2: And since starting open Star, since coming across the idea 170 00:10:02,053 --> 00:10:04,893 Speaker 2: to do this, kind of immediately knew that the whole 171 00:10:04,892 --> 00:10:07,453 Speaker 2: industry would think this was impossible, but it was that 172 00:10:07,492 --> 00:10:12,453 Speaker 2: technology that out of ceview and lower heart that clearly 173 00:10:12,453 --> 00:10:15,412 Speaker 2: said it wasn't impossible that we can engineer things like this. 174 00:10:16,213 --> 00:10:18,653 Speaker 2: And so the milestone for us is really that proof 175 00:10:18,732 --> 00:10:23,732 Speaker 2: positive that levitated dipoles, despite everybody's opinion, are not impossible, 176 00:10:23,973 --> 00:10:27,453 Speaker 2: that you can build these machines, and that therefore there 177 00:10:27,573 --> 00:10:31,052 Speaker 2: is a pathway to move towards building power plants, and 178 00:10:31,252 --> 00:10:34,413 Speaker 2: Open Star is right there to go on that journey. 179 00:10:34,612 --> 00:10:35,413 Speaker 2: It's incredible. 180 00:10:35,573 --> 00:10:37,893 Speaker 4: And this might sound like a vacuous question, but what 181 00:10:37,933 --> 00:10:40,132 Speaker 4: does it sound like when you when you fire it up? 182 00:10:41,773 --> 00:10:45,013 Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, everything is inside a vacuum chamber, and it's 183 00:10:45,053 --> 00:10:46,933 Speaker 2: like you know when you watch a movie where people 184 00:10:46,933 --> 00:10:49,213 Speaker 2: are in space and they can hear things. You can't 185 00:10:49,252 --> 00:10:52,213 Speaker 2: hear things in space. You need an atmosphere to hear stuff. 186 00:10:53,293 --> 00:10:55,813 Speaker 2: But the lab itself you can just kind of hear 187 00:10:55,892 --> 00:10:59,013 Speaker 2: this hum of all the equipment it's running. Becomes a 188 00:10:59,012 --> 00:11:03,532 Speaker 2: bit of a weird science science fiction heartbeat, and you 189 00:11:04,333 --> 00:11:06,373 Speaker 2: and your dreams, I think, if you're exposed to it 190 00:11:06,413 --> 00:11:11,612 Speaker 2: long enough. But yeah, the visual experience is pretty amazing. 191 00:11:11,653 --> 00:11:14,213 Speaker 2: So like if people look up Open Star on YouTube. 192 00:11:14,252 --> 00:11:16,213 Speaker 2: They should be able to find the live stream of 193 00:11:16,293 --> 00:11:19,933 Speaker 2: the event that we did and you enjoy the Prime 194 00:11:19,973 --> 00:11:22,012 Speaker 2: Minister pushing a button and making some placements. 195 00:11:22,333 --> 00:11:27,412 Speaker 4: So talk to the reward of fusion. So it's once 196 00:11:27,653 --> 00:11:33,132 Speaker 4: the expense of creating the energy is less than you know, 197 00:11:33,333 --> 00:11:35,333 Speaker 4: what it takes to make the plasma or whatever control 198 00:11:35,413 --> 00:11:41,573 Speaker 4: the plasma. So the reward is safe energy, isn't it. 199 00:11:40,933 --> 00:11:44,573 Speaker 4: It's all the benefits of nuclear energy, but without any 200 00:11:44,612 --> 00:11:47,573 Speaker 4: of the downside of radioactive material and such. 201 00:11:48,573 --> 00:11:51,893 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the big piece of fusion is that it's 202 00:11:51,892 --> 00:11:56,693 Speaker 2: effectively a factory for making energy where the inputs are 203 00:11:56,813 --> 00:11:59,093 Speaker 2: very very cheap, and so you just have to spend 204 00:11:59,333 --> 00:12:03,093 Speaker 2: on the factory. And the alp for that factory is electricity, 205 00:12:04,573 --> 00:12:10,213 Speaker 2: and the world is really thing for is a cheapable 206 00:12:10,892 --> 00:12:17,333 Speaker 2: form of that is also reliable and available. So when 207 00:12:17,372 --> 00:12:19,973 Speaker 2: you go to turn on your factory that actually makes widgets, 208 00:12:20,053 --> 00:12:22,132 Speaker 2: or go on and turn your kettle on in your home, 209 00:12:22,852 --> 00:12:25,412 Speaker 2: that it's not sensitive to whether or not the sun 210 00:12:25,453 --> 00:12:28,732 Speaker 2: is shining or the wind is blowing, or whether or 211 00:12:28,773 --> 00:12:31,732 Speaker 2: not you have a big enough battery bank to compensate 212 00:12:31,773 --> 00:12:34,253 Speaker 2: for those things, and that you actually just have a 213 00:12:34,293 --> 00:12:37,052 Speaker 2: power source that's always available for when you need it. 214 00:12:38,413 --> 00:12:41,053 Speaker 2: And what we're seeing now with the rise of say 215 00:12:41,213 --> 00:12:46,532 Speaker 2: AI is that people are becoming less and less willing 216 00:12:46,573 --> 00:12:51,133 Speaker 2: to compromise on their access to energy in order to 217 00:12:51,252 --> 00:12:58,933 Speaker 2: hit climate goals, which is pretty scary, but ultimately that's 218 00:12:58,973 --> 00:13:01,653 Speaker 2: the gauntlet that's been put in front of us, is 219 00:13:01,892 --> 00:13:06,773 Speaker 2: can we find innovative solutions to kind of unshackle the 220 00:13:06,813 --> 00:13:09,892 Speaker 2: way we think about energy and fusion is definitely a 221 00:13:09,973 --> 00:13:10,813 Speaker 2: pathway to do that. 222 00:13:11,252 --> 00:13:14,213 Speaker 3: We're speaking to dot R to Matider, the CEO of 223 00:13:14,252 --> 00:13:17,173 Speaker 3: Open Star Technologies. So if you guys crack this and 224 00:13:17,213 --> 00:13:19,333 Speaker 3: it does become commercially viable, I mean, what does that 225 00:13:19,413 --> 00:13:22,492 Speaker 3: mean for every day? You know, Kiwi's in this instant 226 00:13:22,533 --> 00:13:26,132 Speaker 3: on their electricity bill? Are we talking a massive reduction 227 00:13:26,252 --> 00:13:28,933 Speaker 3: on how much they would pay? Obviously that flows across 228 00:13:28,973 --> 00:13:31,173 Speaker 3: the board to industry as well, But that is that 229 00:13:31,333 --> 00:13:32,372 Speaker 3: potentially the future. 230 00:13:33,492 --> 00:13:36,733 Speaker 2: I think that's probably the far future. We have challenges. 231 00:13:36,773 --> 00:13:40,773 Speaker 2: Even once we get the product to be commercial. We 232 00:13:40,933 --> 00:13:45,413 Speaker 2: are running behind on transitioning the grid to clean, reliable 233 00:13:45,492 --> 00:13:48,652 Speaker 2: energy in general, even as we roll out solar and 234 00:13:48,732 --> 00:13:51,372 Speaker 2: wind and so we've got a lot of catching up 235 00:13:51,413 --> 00:13:54,093 Speaker 2: to do basically, and that's one of the reasons why 236 00:13:54,093 --> 00:13:57,613 Speaker 2: this team works so quickly. But to the spirit of 237 00:13:57,612 --> 00:14:00,933 Speaker 2: your question, like, what does the utopia where we have 238 00:14:01,732 --> 00:14:05,173 Speaker 2: actually abundant and unlimited energy, what does that look like? 239 00:14:06,573 --> 00:14:09,213 Speaker 2: How does it change people's lives? I think it's a 240 00:14:09,252 --> 00:14:14,093 Speaker 2: little bit like broadband internet. Back when I was a kid, 241 00:14:14,213 --> 00:14:16,892 Speaker 2: I remember that we would run out of gigabytes, right, 242 00:14:16,933 --> 00:14:19,933 Speaker 2: and we would have to buy some more gigabytes on 243 00:14:19,973 --> 00:14:24,293 Speaker 2: the plan. And then eventually the internet got so good, 244 00:14:24,413 --> 00:14:27,253 Speaker 2: the connections to everybody got so good that people stopped 245 00:14:27,373 --> 00:14:30,653 Speaker 2: charging by the gigabyte and they started charging by speed. 246 00:14:31,453 --> 00:14:35,133 Speaker 2: And so a really simple example is if your house 247 00:14:35,413 --> 00:14:39,133 Speaker 2: has a connection to the grid that could keep it warm, 248 00:14:39,613 --> 00:14:42,213 Speaker 2: the power to keep it warm will be so low 249 00:14:42,253 --> 00:14:44,453 Speaker 2: cost that you can just do it right, and that 250 00:14:44,533 --> 00:14:49,413 Speaker 2: we can just solve problems of abundance and health directly. 251 00:14:49,893 --> 00:14:52,653 Speaker 2: And then if you're running a factory right, building things 252 00:14:52,653 --> 00:14:56,013 Speaker 2: that people need, you don't have to worry about where 253 00:14:56,013 --> 00:14:58,213 Speaker 2: you're getting that energy from. You can just get it 254 00:14:58,253 --> 00:15:03,173 Speaker 2: and use it and keep that factory going. And these 255 00:15:03,253 --> 00:15:07,093 Speaker 2: always energy always feels so abstract to people. It's always 256 00:15:07,173 --> 00:15:11,653 Speaker 2: kind of that arm's length. But at the level of 257 00:15:11,933 --> 00:15:16,613 Speaker 2: countries and how they behave, energy plays a huge part, 258 00:15:16,853 --> 00:15:19,653 Speaker 2: and so I think even clean and abundant energy as 259 00:15:19,693 --> 00:15:23,213 Speaker 2: a pathway to a much more peaceful world. And I 260 00:15:23,253 --> 00:15:26,733 Speaker 2: know that's something that all New Zealanders believe in and 261 00:15:26,773 --> 00:15:27,253 Speaker 2: strive for. 262 00:15:28,053 --> 00:15:31,053 Speaker 4: You speak of it utopia. There's a saying that always 263 00:15:31,093 --> 00:15:34,053 Speaker 4: gets banned about that fusion is always thirty years away. 264 00:15:34,853 --> 00:15:38,893 Speaker 4: So how far away do you think it is now? 265 00:15:40,533 --> 00:15:45,533 Speaker 2: So we will be seeing the first fusion power plants 266 00:15:46,493 --> 00:15:48,333 Speaker 2: turning on and putting power into the grid. We will 267 00:15:48,373 --> 00:15:50,773 Speaker 2: see that in the early twenty thirties. Wow. And that's 268 00:15:50,773 --> 00:15:54,253 Speaker 2: not just open Staff being bullish. That's other companies pursuing 269 00:15:54,293 --> 00:15:59,932 Speaker 2: other approaches on their timelines as well. That's first electricity. 270 00:16:01,093 --> 00:16:05,733 Speaker 2: But again, this is not just, you know, a niche thing. 271 00:16:05,893 --> 00:16:10,133 Speaker 2: This is trying to reinvent an entirety. And so by 272 00:16:10,173 --> 00:16:14,213 Speaker 2: the time we get to that utopia, I think, hopefully 273 00:16:14,213 --> 00:16:16,973 Speaker 2: I will have retired and someone else will have taken 274 00:16:17,053 --> 00:16:20,493 Speaker 2: over Open Star and the world will start looking like 275 00:16:20,533 --> 00:16:23,373 Speaker 2: a really different place. But this is just the beginning 276 00:16:23,413 --> 00:16:26,373 Speaker 2: of this journey, and like a lot of his journeys, 277 00:16:26,373 --> 00:16:29,453 Speaker 2: it starts off somewhere pretty pretty hard, right, facing a 278 00:16:29,493 --> 00:16:32,533 Speaker 2: really big challenge, But where you get to on the 279 00:16:32,533 --> 00:16:34,893 Speaker 2: other side, having overcome that challenge can be a pretty 280 00:16:34,893 --> 00:16:35,573 Speaker 2: amazing place. 281 00:16:36,213 --> 00:16:44,373 Speaker 4: Now, New Zealand is famously nervous about nuclear options, and 282 00:16:44,453 --> 00:16:48,213 Speaker 4: so there be people out there that don't necessarily understand 283 00:16:48,253 --> 00:16:50,973 Speaker 4: too much about it, So this is a question for them. 284 00:16:51,373 --> 00:16:53,293 Speaker 4: Is there any chance of you blowing up and killing 285 00:16:53,333 --> 00:16:54,253 Speaker 4: everyone in Wellington? 286 00:16:55,693 --> 00:17:00,613 Speaker 2: No, there is zero chance of that happening. And answering 287 00:17:00,653 --> 00:17:04,413 Speaker 2: the question, I'd also always like to say that safety 288 00:17:04,653 --> 00:17:07,213 Speaker 2: around how these things work is always something that we're 289 00:17:07,333 --> 00:17:09,733 Speaker 2: very open about, so I'm not going to get offended 290 00:17:09,813 --> 00:17:13,013 Speaker 2: or worked up by being asked a question like that. 291 00:17:13,853 --> 00:17:16,053 Speaker 2: The way that we would describe it and how people 292 00:17:16,053 --> 00:17:19,373 Speaker 2: should think about it is that a fusion power plant 293 00:17:19,733 --> 00:17:24,453 Speaker 2: doesn't have anything in it any more risky than any 294 00:17:24,653 --> 00:17:29,493 Speaker 2: kind of standard, big chemical processing plant that our current 295 00:17:29,533 --> 00:17:34,013 Speaker 2: industry runs on. The risks are of a slightly different flavor, 296 00:17:34,733 --> 00:17:37,053 Speaker 2: but they're all things that just need to be managed 297 00:17:37,413 --> 00:17:39,813 Speaker 2: mainly for the safety of the people that actually work 298 00:17:40,533 --> 00:17:45,693 Speaker 2: at that plant. And we run big industry over place, 299 00:17:45,853 --> 00:17:49,413 Speaker 2: we know how to keep people safe. We're keeping people 300 00:17:49,453 --> 00:17:52,292 Speaker 2: safe and that's one of the things that's super exciting 301 00:17:52,333 --> 00:17:55,293 Speaker 2: about fusion is that it has a clear pathway to 302 00:17:55,373 --> 00:17:56,333 Speaker 2: achieve that safety. 303 00:17:56,893 --> 00:17:59,453 Speaker 4: Now, just going back before we finish, just because I 304 00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:03,253 Speaker 4: think people listening might miss a little bit. But you 305 00:18:03,293 --> 00:18:06,733 Speaker 4: speak of the plasma, what actually is the plasma, what 306 00:18:06,853 --> 00:18:07,733 Speaker 4: is it made out of? 307 00:18:08,893 --> 00:18:12,013 Speaker 2: So plasma is often referred to as the fourth state 308 00:18:12,053 --> 00:18:14,773 Speaker 2: of matter. So if something is cold, it forms a solid, 309 00:18:15,053 --> 00:18:17,173 Speaker 2: warm it up a bit that melts into a liquid, 310 00:18:17,213 --> 00:18:20,173 Speaker 2: warm it up more, it turns into a gas, warming 311 00:18:20,293 --> 00:18:23,853 Speaker 2: up even further. And what happens is if you look 312 00:18:23,893 --> 00:18:26,893 Speaker 2: at the atoms that made up that gas, you can 313 00:18:26,933 --> 00:18:30,093 Speaker 2: get it so hot that the electrons that are going 314 00:18:30,133 --> 00:18:34,532 Speaker 2: around that atom fly off, and you instead now have 315 00:18:34,613 --> 00:18:38,573 Speaker 2: a mixture of electrons whizzing around doing their own thing, 316 00:18:39,013 --> 00:18:41,213 Speaker 2: and also the nuclei that were at a cor of 317 00:18:41,213 --> 00:18:44,613 Speaker 2: those atoms also whizzing around doing their own thing. And 318 00:18:44,693 --> 00:18:48,893 Speaker 2: so that fourth state of matter we call plasma. And 319 00:18:48,973 --> 00:18:53,973 Speaker 2: because you've got these electzions wizzing around, plasmas are electrically 320 00:18:54,013 --> 00:18:58,093 Speaker 2: conductive and sensitive to magnetic fields, which is precisely why 321 00:18:58,133 --> 00:19:01,693 Speaker 2: we use really strong magnets to hold onto them. 322 00:19:02,013 --> 00:19:05,253 Speaker 3: Doctor mateda Thank you very much for joining us. Really 323 00:19:05,253 --> 00:19:07,933 Speaker 3: appreciate your time and expertise and hopefully catch up again soon. 324 00:19:08,733 --> 00:19:09,333 Speaker 2: Thank you, Berth. 325 00:19:09,653 --> 00:19:13,973 Speaker 3: That is doctor Artu Mataida, the head of open Star Technologies, 326 00:19:14,093 --> 00:19:17,093 Speaker 3: who are doing incredible exciting work in the realm of 327 00:19:17,173 --> 00:19:19,533 Speaker 3: nuclear fusion. You're listening to News Talks EDB. 328 00:19:20,053 --> 00:19:23,013 Speaker 1: For more from News Talk SeeDB. Listen live on air 329 00:19:23,213 --> 00:19:25,893 Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you 330 00:19:25,973 --> 00:19:28,333 Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.