1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by. 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: The New Zealand Herald. While the world ponders whether. 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 2: Being a billionaire is ethical in these challenging times, another 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: potential dilemma has arisen trillionaires. Tesla founder Elon Musk is 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 2: on track to becoming the world's first trillion dollar man, 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 2: and it comes at a time when billionaire wealth has 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: surged three times faster last year than the year before, 10 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: while the number of people living in poverty has barely 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 2: changed since nineteen ninety. Today on the front page, ox 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: vam Altieroa's Climate Justice League, Nick Henry is with. 13 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: Us to discuss whether ethical billionaires are even a thing and. 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: How we might be able to address wealth inequality. Right next, 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: So let's talk money. What are oxfam's latest figures on 16 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 2: billionaire wealth. 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, OXFAM International producers a report Global Inequality Report 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: every January, and that coincides with the global meeting at 19 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: Davos in Switzerland out of the World Economic Forum, where 20 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 3: a lot of billionaires are in attendance and the focus 21 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: is on the megawealthy at that ski resort in Switzerland. 22 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 3: And so we really try to draw attention to the 23 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 3: excesses of wealth and the inequality that that's creating in 24 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: the world, compared to really the stagnation of progress for 25 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: not just the poorest, but the majority of people in 26 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: the world who have not seen their wealth substantially increase. 27 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: While the wealth of billionaires is trending upwards at times 28 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: it seems like an exponential increase. 29 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, billionaire wealth surged by two trillion dollars 30 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 2: last year. 31 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: According to this report. How does that compare to us? 32 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: Suppose the rest of us, the majority of the world, 33 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: have not seen an increase in their wealth. 34 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: And the only reason that we're not going backwards entirely 35 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: is the progress made by countries like China in reducing 36 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 3: absolute poverty. But even in China you have growing inequality. 37 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: In India you have growing inequality as the majority of 38 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 3: the wealth is captured by a growing number of billionaires, 39 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: and wealth inequality is growing even faster than income inequality. 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: The majority of people, and I think the majority of 41 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: New Zealanders could relate to this, find it pretty hard 42 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 3: to save more than a small buffer week to week, 43 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: So the majority of people, it's a bit of an 44 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 3: American expression, But you'd say a living paycheck to paycheck. 45 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: While the billionaires are really stacking cash at a faster 46 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: rate that they can, then they can spend it at 47 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: a faster rate that they are willing to give it away. 48 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: Their wealth is growing faster than they even seem to 49 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: know what to do with it. I think the rest 50 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 3: of us would have some pretty good ideas about what 51 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: to do with some of that wealth. Collectively, and bearing 52 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 3: in mind that if billionaires paid their fair share of 53 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: taxes like there, like what an ordinary person reading the 54 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 3: tax code would think that they should be paying, they 55 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: would still be living an unimaginable luxury. As multi billionaires 56 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: or as you know, multi multi millionaires, their lifestyles are 57 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: not really a threat. What needs to be rained in 58 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 3: is the level of power and influence, disproportionate influence over 59 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 3: the economy and the political system, This accumulation of essentially 60 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: useless wealth. 61 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 2: You mentioned billionaires, and do it having more money than 62 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: what they know what to do with. I was just 63 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: having a conversation in the newsroom that a million dollars 64 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: used to be an aspiration, you know, becoming a millionaire. 65 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. 66 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: But you'd be hard pressed to find an apartment or 67 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 2: even a two bedroom home in Auckland for undred a 68 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 2: million dollars these days. How many more billionaires are we 69 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: looking at? 70 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: Well, just on that first point, I think in New 71 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: Zealand dollars, to be a millionaire is basically to maybe 72 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: own your own house in a major city or have 73 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: saved for a retirement a million dollars. I was just 74 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: looking at the figures on a household median income, So 75 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 3: that's the middle New Zealand household. A million dollars is 76 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: about fourteen years of income, and of course no one 77 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 3: saves their entire income, but it is fourteen years of 78 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: about the middle household income. But of course a billion 79 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 3: dollars is a thousand times that, So that's fourteen thousand 80 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: years of the middle household income. And when you put 81 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: that in perspective, it's possible to earn a million dollars 82 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 3: just by having you know, maybe two people working sort 83 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 3: of middle income jobs for most of their working lives. 84 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: You could earn a million dollars. But it's impossible for 85 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: anyone to earn a billion dollars. You're talking at that 86 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: point about wealth generated by wealth, wealth generated by a 87 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 3: qum relating the benefits of work that other people are 88 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 3: doing and really disproportionately. So you asked how many new 89 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 3: billionaires we're seeing? So and the last time Oxford produced 90 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 3: our report in January this year, we looked at the 91 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty four figures up until November twenty twenty four 92 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: and found two thousand, seven hundred and sixty nine billionaires 93 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: in the world. So that was two hundred and four 94 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 3: more than the previous year twenty twenty three, and we 95 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 3: said that that meant nearly four a week new billionaires. 96 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: Wow. 97 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 3: And I just looked this morning at the latest figures 98 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 3: because it is November twenty twenty five, and with the 99 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: caveat that this will all be checked by the oxfand 100 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 3: Global team and the methodology will be applied as diligently 101 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: as always do for the January report. So without holding 102 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: me to that level of scrudiny brutany on my methodology, 103 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 3: just looking at the Forbes Rich List, which is what 104 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: we use each year to to find those figures, I 105 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: see three twenty two billionaires currently on that Forbes Rich 106 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: List as of today, and that's an increase of three 107 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty three from this time last year, which 108 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 3: means more than six new billionaires every week, So that 109 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 3: shows an escalation on the on the previous year. 110 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 4: Well, forty two million Americans are facing the risk of 111 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 4: going hungry amid the longest government shutdown in American history 112 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 4: because of food stamps being put on hold. Tesla's shareholders 113 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 4: just voted to give Elon Musk potential trillion dollar paypack. 114 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: That's two hundred and seventy five million dollars per day 115 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 4: over the next ten years. How would you even spend that? 116 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: This comes after Musk reportedly threatened to walk away from 117 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 4: the company if they refused his raise. The payment will 118 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: be in the form of more than four hundred and 119 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 4: twenty million shares of Tesla stock. There is a big 120 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 4: caveat here. Tesla has to reach an eight point five 121 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 4: trillion dollar market value that's almost five times higher than 122 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: it is today. 123 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about this at a time when 124 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: Elon Musk is in fact on track to becoming the 125 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: world's first trillionaire, with a one trillion dollar Tesla compensation 126 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: plan approved recently. What implications do you think does this 127 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: potential trillionaire. 128 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: Status have for that global wealth distribution. 129 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Elon Musk would be about halfway there on 130 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 3: the current figures, which show him on the Forbes list 131 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: as four hundred and sixty six billion dollars net worth today, 132 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: and that fluctuates today and it might be different again 133 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: by the time this podcast goes to air. But Forbes 134 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 3: says that he lost seventeen billion dollars yesterday and it 135 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: will go up again tomorrow and maybe down next week 136 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: and up again, because this is bouncing around with the 137 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: value of the Tesla stock price and whatever crypto assets 138 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 3: and other things are involved in that net worth. And 139 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: to put that in perspective, the like the national deficit 140 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: of the New Zealand government as six point seven billion 141 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 3: New Zealand dollars, which would be less than four billion US, 142 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 3: which means that Elon Musk lost about four times more 143 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: than that just yesterday on the stock market. And we'll 144 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: make it again next week and then it will be 145 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: bouncing around. But the long term trend is yeah, going 146 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 3: up by hundreds of billions of dollars. And in twenty 147 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 3: twenty four we estimated that there would be a trillionaire 148 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 3: within ten years looking at the figures from twenty twenty three, 149 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: and the latest report from this year is estimating five 150 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 3: trillionaires within a decade. So that's the trend that we're on. 151 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: We're on track for an ever smaller number of people 152 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 3: to control an ever larger proportion of the world's wealth, 153 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: comparable to half of humanity. And the consequences for that 154 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 3: for our economy are ever greater instability, and for our 155 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: political system is an ever greater concentration of power and influence. 156 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: And you see that especially in the United States, but 157 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: also in other countries. And one of the reasons I 158 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: pick on the United States is not just the levels 159 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: of inequality and the number of billionaires there, but it's 160 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: also a sign of how we can make a difference 161 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 3: to the influence of billionaires. Because you know, anyone who 162 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: follows US political news will know that the Citizens United 163 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 3: decision that removed caps on donations to political candidates and 164 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: political action committees was and calling that donation a kind 165 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: of free speech, that removed the limits that had been 166 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 3: in place on billionaire in corporate power to influence elections. 167 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: You see some hopeful signs of candidates who pleedged not 168 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: to take money from those kinds of big donors. Or packs. 169 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: But here in A and zelland we do have limits 170 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 3: on political donations, and we need to keep up that 171 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 3: kind of scrutiny. So it's not a foregone conclusion that 172 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: billionaires and corporations should control our political system. We can 173 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 3: regulate that and rain that in. And I'd actually go 174 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 3: a bit further and say, it's not a foregone conclusion 175 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: that these extremes of wealth, these individuals and increasingly monopolistic 176 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: corporations should control our economy. 177 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 5: Either. 178 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 3: We can and should make democratic decisions about the structure 179 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: and the incentives of our economy so that everyone has 180 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: the chance for success in their own lives, and that 181 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: that's success, that that's not sacrificed to the really useless 182 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 3: measures of success of this vast accumulation of wealth. 183 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 5: I'd say, if you have money, it would be great 184 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 5: to use it for good things and maybe give it 185 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 5: to some people that need it. And love you all, 186 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 5: but there's a few people in here that have a 187 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 5: lot more money than me. And uh, if you're a billionaire, 188 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 5: why are you a billionaire? No hate, but yeah, give 189 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 5: your money away. Shortie's love you guys, thank you so much. 190 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 6: This extraordinary Billie Eilish will be donating proceeds from her 191 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 6: Hit Me Hard and Soft tour to support organizations, projects 192 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 6: and voices dedicated food equity, climate justice, reducing carbon pollution, 193 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 6: and combating the climate crisis. That donation, ladies and gentlemen, 194 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 6: will be eleven point five million dollars. 195 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: Looking into billionaire wealth and the wealth inequality around the world, 196 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: I've heard this term ethical billionaire, but I suppose that'll 197 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 2: become ethical trillionaire in a decade's time. But what is 198 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 2: this idea of an ethical billionaire? 199 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 3: Well, I'd be tempted to say it's an oxymoron, but 200 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 3: that's a bit too easy because it's it's not really 201 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 3: fair or particularly useful to blame the individuals for winning 202 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 3: a rigged game. And so I'd say, what's really unethical 203 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 3: is the economic system that we've allowed to create these 204 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: extremes of wealth. And so if we're looking for ethics, 205 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: then I think that's the first question is what kinds 206 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 3: of regulations do we want to put in place to 207 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,359 Speaker 3: spread the wealth more evenly and to avoid the extremes 208 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: that we're seeing. But to answer the question, I think 209 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 3: that the really the only way to be if one 210 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 3: found oneself in the position of being a billionaire. The 211 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: only ethical way to cope with that situation, I think 212 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: would be to put in place a plan to not 213 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: be a billionaire anymore and more. Billionaires could start by 214 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: paying their fair share of taxes. You could simply give 215 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: that instruction to your accountant to comply with the regulations, 216 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 3: but also to support as as many wealthy individuals do, 217 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: actually support a tightening of loopholes so that they do 218 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 3: pay their fair share. And then there's the question of philanthropy, 219 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 3: and so someone who does have more money than they 220 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: need and after paying their fair share of taxes can 221 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 3: and should look to do good with that money and 222 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 3: distribute to causes that have a broader social benefit. But 223 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 3: there's no compulsion on billionaires to do that, and I 224 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: think we have to be a bit skeptical about where 225 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 3: any billionaire today is fulfilling their ethical obligations to society. 226 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: The one example that's sometimes used of a billionaire who 227 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 3: did do what I'm saying of giving up a large 228 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: share of their wealth was the late Chuck Feenie, an 229 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 3: Irish American billionaire who made his money on duty free stores. 230 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: I think, and without publicizing or trumpeting. This actually confidentially 231 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: transferred his wealth into a charitable trust, but which over 232 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 3: the course of the next decade gave away the majority 233 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 3: of his wealth. And what was important about that is 234 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 3: that that was the mission of the charitable trust, and 235 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: it was wound up in twenty twenty having given away 236 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 3: billions of dollars. And when Chuck Feenie he died, he 237 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: was no longer a billionaire. He was very comfortable as 238 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: a multi millionaire living his best life, but he had 239 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: given away enough money to no longer be a billionaire. 240 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 3: And there are examples of other billionaires today who seemed 241 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 3: to be on that track. Mackenzie Scott, who's a successful author, 242 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: co founder of Amazon, and was married for a long 243 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 3: time to Jeff Bezos, helping raise their children and contributing 244 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: to the wealth that they generated as a family. But 245 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: since they divorced, Mackenzie Scott has been on quite a 246 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 3: different track from Jeff Bezos and has been giving away 247 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: a substantial portion of her wealth through no strings attached, 248 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: direct grants to working charities. And that's a big difference 249 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: from the billionaires that you see putting money into their 250 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: own directly or family controlled foundations. Which is really another 251 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 3: way of holding wealth, and they do trickle that money 252 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 3: out to other nonprofits and charities, but in the meantime 253 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 3: they are using their foundations to prop up their reputations 254 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 3: and their influence and their lifestyles as well. 255 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: Well, that was going to be my question actually about 256 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 2: how you know, because philanthropic ventures tend to be something 257 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: that only very very rich people do. The rest of 258 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: us call it donations or you know, monthly sign up 259 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: to you know, give to a donotion. 260 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: But in terms of I mean, what do you think defines. 261 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: What is actually philanthropic or what is a money making 262 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: venture or a public PPR move Basically, I mean, I'm, 263 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 2: for one, I'm skeptical of whenever I see a massive 264 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 2: one of those novelty checks. 265 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 3: Well, I work for ox Van, which is one of 266 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: the non profits who benefit from philanthropic donations, and we're 267 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 3: certainly grateful to everyone who gives, whether that's a small 268 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 3: regular donation which is most of our income, up to 269 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: those wealthy individuals and families who have done well and 270 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 3: want to give something back. The criticism that I was 271 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 3: making earlier of the typical billionaire style is very different 272 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: to any of that it's establishing one's own private you know, 273 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 3: closely held foundations to concentrate wealth and call it charity. 274 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: And I'm referencing there really a recent report by the 275 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 3: Institute of Policy Studies in the US that looked at 276 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: the Giving Pledge, which was a philanthropic initiative in two 277 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 3: thousand ten by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett and others 278 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 3: where they pledged to give away the majority of their 279 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 3: wealth during their lifetimes or by the time of their death. 280 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: And looking at that, criticism of the closely held foundation 281 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: is one of the main ones of that report. The 282 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 3: story of Chuck Feenie I also got from that report, 283 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 3: and the criticism being that no other billionaire, with the 284 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 3: exception perhaps of Mackenzie Scott and others who seemed to 285 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: be on that track, no other billionaire is making that 286 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 3: commitment to no longer be a billionaire. And they even 287 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 3: looked at the twenty two pledgers who had died since 288 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: twenty ten and found that only eight of those had 289 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 3: fulfilled their pledge to give away the majority of their wealth. 290 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: And of course, for many billionaires giving the majority of 291 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 3: their wealth, they would still be billionaires. There are recommendations 292 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 3: in the report, including that the tax system be revised 293 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: to capture more effectively the public share of this large 294 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 3: accumulated wealth, including to look again at the tax exemptions 295 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 3: that are given for these privately held foundations. And then 296 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 3: there are recommendations for billionaires who do want to fulfill 297 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: their pledge, who do want to try to be an 298 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: ethical billionaire. But from Oxfad, I think we would put 299 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: the emphasis on the tax system, on the democratic ways 300 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 3: in which we need to reign in excessive wealth and 301 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: really take back the public share that we have all 302 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: contributed to this wealth, you know, through our work, through 303 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 3: our work not just working for billionaires, but working all 304 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: their corporations, but working to maintain the economy and the 305 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 3: infrastructure that allows them to generate wealth. And it's great 306 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 3: that wealth is being generated, but let's share it more 307 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 3: fairly among everyone who contributes to it. And really that's 308 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 3: all of us. So billionaires can be billionaires, I suppose, 309 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 3: but we should all be benefiting from the accumulation of wealth. 310 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: The society gets richer, we should be seeing those benefits 311 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 3: spread more evenly as well. 312 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Nick, Thanks thanks for having me. 313 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 314 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 315 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 2: at enzadherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 316 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 317 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 318 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 319 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 2: in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.