1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,600
Speaker 1: Remember Brook van Velden. She told us so on the

2
00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,840
Speaker 1: program the other day. There was a suite a plethora

3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,360
Speaker 1: of change coming this week under her watch. The latest

4
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,840
Speaker 1: is that landowners will no longer be liable for recreational accidents.

5
00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,680
Speaker 1: This is for you know, Hunter's Fish's kai because that

6
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,120
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You may strike a bit of trouble

7
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,080
Speaker 1: on your land and you being held responsible. Currently White

8
00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,000
Speaker 1: Island actually might be a very good example of this.

9
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 1: Health and safety lawyer Anthony Harper of Grant Nicholson is

10
00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: with us. Oh sorry, but Anthony Harper's the company, Grant

11
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,120
Speaker 1: Nicholson is the person grant my sincere apologies.

12
00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,000
Speaker 2: Good morning mart and a very good morning to you.

13
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 1: Is the law crying out to be reformed.

14
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,880
Speaker 2: No, not at all. This is a solution in search

15
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:38,479
Speaker 2: of a problem.

16
00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,479
Speaker 1: Okay, So what about White Island? Would that not be

17
00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,519
Speaker 1: a good example of where things got a bit muddy?

18
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's fair, and it's probably the only

19
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,720
Speaker 2: example where we've seen things good a bit muddy. But

20
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,480
Speaker 2: ultimately the court did its job and in the High

21
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: Court for Current Management Limited was acquitted. So the law

22
00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 2: actually worked as intended. And if you look into our

23
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,720
Speaker 2: history this reform is really going to if I take

24
00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 2: you back to Cave Crack in so the nineteen nineties,

25
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 2: it's going to give a free pass to landowners when

26
00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 2: there's actually something arising out of their land, like platforms,

27
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,039
Speaker 2: like bridges, like other things of that nature which might collapse,

28
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 2: and say you're going to get a free pass. The

29
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:27,959
Speaker 2: law is already not involving farmers and public bodies routinely

30
00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,679
Speaker 2: getting prosecuted for the activities of other people on their land.

31
00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 2: It's just not something that works Outing zeal And. The

32
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,080
Speaker 2: regulator does right.

33
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,080
Speaker 1: So this is my next question. How much of this

34
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 1: is about a White Island or aka preak and therefore

35
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 1: doc or some public entity versus Bob on his farm

36
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 1: letting some fisher people through who then go and hurt themselves.

37
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 2: Well, the examples that the Minister gave were firstly, if

38
00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,720
Speaker 2: you had farmers working on a farm property and then

39
00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 2: you've got a horse tracking business working on the farm

40
00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 2: or already the health and safety work out deals with

41
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 2: that because there's a card out for farmers except where

42
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,720
Speaker 2: they're actually doing the farming activities. So a farmer already

43
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,799
Speaker 2: would not be liable for the horse tracking activity. Business.

44
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 2: It's also intended then to be wider, so you're write

45
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,280
Speaker 2: the likes of councils, dock schools, anybody else where there

46
00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,639
Speaker 2: might be recreation activities occurring on their properties. But I've

47
00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,960
Speaker 2: acted for a wide range of public sector organizations, including

48
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 2: schools actually after fatal accidents on their grounds, and they're

49
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,799
Speaker 2: not getting prosecuted now. So really this is not something

50
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 2: where the major impetus from the business or the health

51
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,960
Speaker 2: and safety community was Minister, we need you to change

52
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 2: these things. There were lots of things that the consultation

53
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,920
Speaker 2: exercised last year for the Minister told her we do

54
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 2: want change, but she hasn't picked those up. She's just

55
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 2: running with things like this and the new road cones hotline.

56
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,320
Speaker 1: Are you are you trying to play this down to

57
00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: the extent so you're a lawyer and this stuff doesn't

58
00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 1: bother you. But so I think of the school example.

59
00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 1: If something happens on your school, people are devastated and

60
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,600
Speaker 1: they worry and they fret, and over a sustained period

61
00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 1: of time, because the wheels of justice turn extremely slowly,

62
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,359
Speaker 1: you might be able to at the end of it go, hey,

63
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 1: don't worry, it all worked out well, meantime, my life

64
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,840
Speaker 1: has been wrecked and I'm you see what I'm saying.

65
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:22,679
Speaker 1: I mean, just because the law sorts of stuff. So

66
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: if I can say, look, it's not my fault and

67
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,680
Speaker 1: I know that, then that's better for me, isn't it.

68
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 2: Yes it is. But we've already got limitations in the law,

69
00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,359
Speaker 2: which says that you're only required to act so far

70
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 2: as is reasonably practicable, And that word reasonably has to

71
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 2: do some heavy lifting here, So the law already doesn't

72
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,880
Speaker 2: actually impose any obligation on organizations more than what is

73
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,880
Speaker 2: independently if there's reasonable Does that mean that sometimes pefore

74
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 2: go to be a risk averse? Sure, yes it does.

75
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 2: But if we say the school as an example, I

76
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,400
Speaker 2: would say that we do want schools to be cognizant

77
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,480
Speaker 2: of the risks that are arising from their grounds. You know,

78
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 2: we don't want them to be leaving equipment out overnight

79
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 2: for example, that children can climb onto or have topple

80
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 2: over onto them and crush them to death, which is

81
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,280
Speaker 2: a real life example that I had to act for

82
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 2: a school when that happened.

83
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,479
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's ideology that's driving this is a knacked ideal,

84
00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,840
Speaker 1: just get the state out of people's lives.

85
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is okay.

86
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 1: Grunt appreciate it very much. Grunt Nicholson, who's health and

87
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 1: safety lawyer at Anthony Harper.

88
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,000
Speaker 2: For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to

89
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,200
Speaker 2: news talks i'd be from six am weekdays, or follow

90
00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:33,800
Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio