1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: A survey of more than forty thousand of our public 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: servants has revealed some tough home truths. Fewer than half 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: are confident their colleagues were hired based on merit. Yeah, 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: four and five say staffing levels and work volumes are 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: a problem, and just fifty seven percent think senior leaders 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: articulate the direction and priorities of their organization. Well, just 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: one in three we're happy with their pay. Sir Brian 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Roach is the Public Service Commissioner. Sir Brian, Hello, good afternoon. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: So what is this survey telling you. 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 2: The survey tells me that actually the state of the 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: public sector is pretty good. We've got some strong foundations 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 2: around our staff understanding about what they do makes a 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: difference to New zealand that integrity is important. So the 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: foundations are good, but we also have quite a bit 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: of homework to do and that there is a number 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: of issues they've highlighted that they would like us to 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: pay attention to around an efficient decision making, complicated business 18 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 2: processes for communications. So yeah, I think it's good and 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: it gives us a lot to get on with and 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: that's what we're going to do. 21 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 1: Four out of five say staffing levels and work volumes 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: are a problem. Is that in their heads or is 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: that real? Do we actually need more public servants? 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: I don't think we need more public servants, and that's 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: not something I'll be focused on. I do think that's 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: how people feel, and I'm not going to be dismissed 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: of it. So I need to get to understand if 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: that is the issue. Actually, what is our response. And 29 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: I've said a number of times publicly and will continue 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 2: that their is scope to simplify and give people more 31 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: time to do the work they need. I think there 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: are tools and techniques, including the introduction of AI, which 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: will help people do their tasks, and that's what the 34 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: government is committed to and that's what I want to lead. 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: What about this is of merit, So I'm quite a 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: shocking number, you know, forty four percent confident their colleagues 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: will have hired based on merit. What will the rest 38 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: hide on? 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was sort of shocked by that, 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: and it's not something that I believe is true at 41 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: the senior levels of the public service. I mean, there 42 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: are a lot of levels here, so you know, I'm 43 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: not once again, I'm not going to dismiss that because 44 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 2: that's what people think, and I don't want to get 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: into some form of deniability. Let's just work through the 46 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: issues with them and find out whether that's true or not. 47 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 2: I would be shripped and I'd be extremely disappointed if 48 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: that's actually factually based. 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: Did you ask or do you have any idea? Have 50 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: you asked a question? If not hired on merit, then 51 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: what they were hired on? 52 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: I didn't ask that. That's not how it was structured. 53 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: But you know, the fact that they think that is 54 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: in itself quite confronting because we pride ourselves in New 55 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: Zealand generally in the public service, particularly that people get 56 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 2: their jobs based on their skill and their merit. 57 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: Clearly they don't think that that's happening in the public service. 58 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: That's a major problem. 59 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not denying that, but we are going to 60 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 2: have to address that. As I said, I'm very comfortable 61 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: at the very senior levels that it is based on 62 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: their but there is a view in some of the 63 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: levels down in the organizations that that's not alwayst the case. 64 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: How do you completely unacceptable? 65 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: How do you fix that? How do you fix that? 66 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: Do you say, because you can't go around and say, well, 67 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: you don't hire people based on that, do you. I mean, 68 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: you can't do the opposite, No. 69 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: But I mean ultimately hiring somebody as a matter of judgment, 70 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: they have to have good technical skills and they need 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: really good characters. So it's something I've rein forced to 72 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: the chief executives. We do not want this perception that 73 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,839 Speaker 2: people are getting jobs on other than what they bring 74 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: to the job and their ability to do the job. 75 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: That goes to the very harder confidence and trust. It's 76 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: not something that we want to be playing with. 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: Just a third of them think they're paid enough. One 78 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: third think they're paid enough. The would salary one hundred thousand, 79 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: just over one hundred thousand dollars. Are they out of touch? 80 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: I don't think they're out of touch. I've never been 81 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: in a workplace where people don't think they should get 82 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: paid more. 83 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: Have you seen? The reality is that's quite a bad 84 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: number those that way. 85 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: I think two thirds thinking that they're paid enough is good. 86 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 2: One set's so they don't think they've been paid enough. 87 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: Once again, I'm not going to sort of whitewash that away, 88 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 2: but you know, we're in very tight fiscal constraint. We 89 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: always want to pay people what they're with and I 90 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 2: think for overwhelming majority we do. But as I said, 91 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: I've never been in a workplace where there's an element 92 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: of people who don't think they should get paid more. 93 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: So, Brian, just finding sixty five thousand public servants, how 94 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: many do you think ideally once you've finished your reforms, 95 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: once you're finished with it, we would need. 96 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 2: I actually don't have that number. I haven't got a number. 97 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 2: But what I do know is that with some greater 98 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: sort of restructuring, which I know people don't want to hear, 99 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: but the reality is we've got too many agencies, we 100 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: need to reduce the number. And with the introduction of AI, 101 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: I think that there are significant games to be made 102 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 2: and we will be making those over the next two 103 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: to four years. 104 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: So there you go. More restructures to come that, Sir 105 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: Brian Wroach, the Public Services Commissioner. Up for more from 106 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to news talks. It'd 107 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.