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Speaker 1: Tuesday morning. Crystal Luction's well, it's very good morning to you.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Mike. Just a quick one on the working

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Speaker 1: from home thing, no fine detail yesterday? Why not? And

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Speaker 1: is that not potentially a problem given what we've talked

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Speaker 1: about in the last couple of weeks, and that is

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Speaker 1: you're getting pushed back from the public service anyway.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I mean what we're laying out very clearly

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Speaker 2: is our expectations is that it's not working from home

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Speaker 2: is not an entitle one to Actu's got to be

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Speaker 2: done by formal agreement. People just shouldn't be assuming that

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Speaker 2: it's a reality. We don't want any working from home

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Speaker 2: to compromise the performance the service, and we were kind

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Speaker 2: of going to actively monitor it and seat of a

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Speaker 2: regular report on progress against it as a government. It's

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Speaker 2: actually the the cees that we're talking to, who actually

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Speaker 2: are the employers, to make sure that you know they're building.

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Speaker 1: Really a highly productive public service.

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Speaker 2: It's firing on all cylinders and that's why we don't

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Speaker 2: want working from home to undermine any of that ambition.

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Speaker 1: Are you a bit slow to get to this? I

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Speaker 1: honestly thought this had been sorted like a year ago.

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Speaker 1: If not longer.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean the bottom line is, no one

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Speaker 2: really knows what's going on and who's working we are

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Speaker 2: at the moment, if I'm honest about it, in the

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Speaker 2: public service, and I think many sees would struggle to say,

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Speaker 2: you know, what proportion of the workforces at home and

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Speaker 2: not and which are unto formal agreements to do so

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Speaker 2: or not. And all we're saying is, look, you know,

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Speaker 2: working from home was introduced as a temporary measure for

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Speaker 2: COVID four years ago. Many organizations, businesses, governments around the

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Speaker 2: world are fighting four years down the road. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: help build culture, it doesn't help team development, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: put improved performance. And you know, you know, we want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that you know, we've got a public

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Speaker 2: service ready to go because we had a lot of challenges,

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Speaker 2: a lot of opportunities to sort through.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't that sort of sum up everything that's wrong with

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Speaker 1: this country? Though, when you go to a CEO and

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Speaker 1: go tell me about it, and he goes, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have a clue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's my job to fix it, right, So

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Speaker 2: I've got to set a new expectation in a different

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Speaker 2: standard that people need to work to if I just

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Speaker 2: walk past it and says that's good enough for and

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Speaker 2: I know it's not, and we don't fix it, that's

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Speaker 2: not right. So the bottom line is, look, that is

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Speaker 2: what it is, or we're saying, is we've got many

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Speaker 2: good public servants. They are appreciating the clarity they're getting from

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Speaker 2: our government, you know, in the direction that they're getting.

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Speaker 2: But we want people to understand it's not an entitlement.

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Speaker 2: It is by agreement. We don't want any compromise to

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Speaker 2: any performance or productivity of the public service. And that's

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Speaker 2: why we're doing what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of fiction and stuff, I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: saw the Lower Institute report on our diplomatic heft in

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Speaker 1: the region, which is going backwards along with China and Myanmar.

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Speaker 1: Was Nanaima, who to singularly the most embarrassing foreign minister

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Speaker 1: this country ever had.

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Speaker 2: Well just say, the Lower Index is one perspective, but

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Speaker 2: having said that, it has actually declined since twenty eighteen. So,

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Speaker 2: and I've said many times I thought the previous government

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Speaker 2: was way too inward looking, not proactive enough, too slow

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Speaker 2: coming out of COVID, and not advancing or further our

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Speaker 2: interests overseas sufficiently, and that's why you know, we've.

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Speaker 1: Had a full court press. We've had it really.

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Speaker 2: Hard in the first ten months. You know, Winston's out there,

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Speaker 2: Judith Collin's out there, Todd mcclay's out there. I've been

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Speaker 2: out there, and it's all part of our plan to

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Speaker 2: sort of lift the energy and urgency and our diplomatic relation.

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Speaker 2: So we do have influence and we are relevant in

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Speaker 2: the region because we've got.

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Speaker 1: A lot to offer.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we are where we are, but you know,

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Speaker 2: I definitely feel like I want to lift that into

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Speaker 2: energy and urgency, and I think we're doing that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you've had people like Todd McClay just constantly meeting with

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Speaker 2: trade ministers working out trade opportunities for us. Have more

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Speaker 2: to say about that shortly. I'm sure some things he's

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Speaker 2: been working on which has been good. But likewise, when St.

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Speaker 2: Peter's it's doing a fantastic job out there.

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Speaker 1: I note that India didn't or doesn't want to sign

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Speaker 1: the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership of which we are a

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Speaker 1: part of, because it seems because of China does that

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Speaker 1: if we can't get a deal directly with them and

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Speaker 1: they don't want to join that which we are part of.

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Speaker 1: Does that set us back potentially trade wise?

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Speaker 2: No, I think the reality for us is we want

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Speaker 2: to do a bilateral Arran set of trade arrangements with India.

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Speaker 2: The first thing is exactly you've sort of started the

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Speaker 2: questioning around, is that you've got to have a relationship

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Speaker 2: in place, and when you haven't actually had, you've had

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Speaker 2: radio silence and no engagement with the Indian system. You

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Speaker 2: can talk trade all you want, but you've got to

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Speaker 2: get the relationship in place first. And You've had Todd

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Speaker 2: McLay I think meet with his trade counterparts five times.

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Speaker 2: You've had Winston visit. I think Todd's been there several times.

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Speaker 2: I've hosted the Indian president here, I've spoken to Mody.

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Speaker 2: We're desperate to try and get together. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: difficult in this last quarter with schedules of visits and

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Speaker 2: other APEC and other things going on, but we're going

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Speaker 2: to try and do that early next year and I'll

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Speaker 2: take a big delegation up there. And he is a

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Speaker 2: fascinating country. I mean, it's an incredible country. It's gonna

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Speaker 2: be our third biggest economy by twenty thirty. It's done

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Speaker 2: a lot of business there in my past life with Unilever,

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Speaker 2: and it's just there's so much opportunity we should have

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Speaker 2: been in the years ago, should have been exactly because

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Speaker 2: you know, I think, Mike, it's about just over two

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Speaker 2: point two billion of trade. It's gone backwards actually over

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Speaker 2: the last government, from two point eight down to two

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Speaker 2: point two. China's forty billion, same population, so you know,

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Speaker 2: that's the potential that sits there. You sere's some challenges

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Speaker 2: around categories that we sell, like dairy and other things,

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Speaker 2: but we've we've got to build the relationship. We've got

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Speaker 2: to be in and we've got to be having the

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Speaker 2: conversations and from there we'll talk about trade and transactions.

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Speaker 1: The UN vote that Peters was defending the other day,

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Speaker 1: this is on Palestine. The text that we had some

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Speaker 1: trouble with but not enough trouble not to vote yes,

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Speaker 1: was the same text that Penny Wong, no friend of

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Speaker 1: a conservative, didn't had so much trouble with. She voted no.

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Speaker 1: How come she votes know and we vote yes on

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Speaker 1: the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I mean, as you could see, we did

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Speaker 2: have serious concerns. We talked about that and what's called

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Speaker 2: our explanation of vote in the UN General Assembly. But

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Speaker 2: we agree with the direction of travel. You know, when

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Speaker 2: our view has been very clear. Look, it's we need

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Speaker 2: to cease far. We want to cease far. We want

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Speaker 2: the hostilities to stop Israel leaving the occupied charities within

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Speaker 2: twelve months with something that we thought was unrealistic, and

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Speaker 2: we talked about that, but on balance, we have an

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Speaker 2: independent foreign policy. We made our own decision and we said, look,

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Speaker 2: the direction of travel is right, but we did vote

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Speaker 2: with some pretty serious caveats and concerns as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, just real quick, this four year term you talked

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Speaker 1: about on Friday, the chances of putting the idea to

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Speaker 1: a vote in twenty six is what.

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Speaker 2: Well, we haven't actually started the work on it, and

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Speaker 2: we've got coalition commitments and all three parties are supportive

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Speaker 2: of doing it. And what we first said is, look,

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Speaker 2: let's get it to Select committee. And so it'll depend

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Speaker 2: upon how much progress we can make between now and then.

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Speaker 1: But unlikely likely who knows.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to put a number on it, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, because I just haven't had the chance to

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Speaker 2: have the conversation and we haven't started the work, but

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Speaker 2: when we do, we put it into a quarterly plan

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Speaker 2: that we'll really be pushing it forward.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and when we vote it'll be binding, yeah, to

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Speaker 1: be a referendum. Yeah yeah, well we can have a referendum.

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Speaker 1: Referendum we've got is it a binding referendum?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, so we vote for it will happen and

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Speaker 1: will it happen the next term? Well?

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Speaker 2: No, what you'd do is you I think you'd have

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Speaker 2: to take it to referendum and then actually have it

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Speaker 2: effect the term after that term that you've voted for.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you could go to referendum and your

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Speaker 2: men you'd have to go sit with a three year

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Speaker 2: term and then it would turn into a four year term.

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Speaker 2: But all of that is a bit premature. There's nothing

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Speaker 2: currently underway. Having said that, there's strong support I think

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Speaker 2: across the Parliament frankly and within the coalition. We have

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Speaker 2: commitment to do the work, but it's just too early

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Speaker 2: to say.

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Speaker 1: For the record, was anything exchanged in any way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form for Merton's release? No, no, no, not at all.

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Speaker 2: And do they want anything new Zealand government doesn't pay

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Speaker 2: bribes or ransom. We did not do so in this case.

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Speaker 1: Did they want anything? No, not that I'm aware of. No,

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Speaker 1: not at all. So how they get to mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, this has been a series of its just been

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Speaker 2: relentless effect frankly from m FAT, the Indonesian government and

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Speaker 2: also actually community figures that have been involved with you

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Speaker 2: have connections to the hostage takers as well, and so

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Speaker 2: it's been about making sure that we manage his safety.

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Speaker 2: Over the last nineteen months, it's taken time. It's been

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Speaker 2: relentless and tireless, I think for five hundred and ninety

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Speaker 2: plus days, and it's been pretty complex case. So it's

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Speaker 2: been just relentless pressure but also engagement that sort of

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Speaker 2: led and sprung and free.

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Speaker 1: Okay, have you read the Supreme Court's order around the

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Speaker 1: Murray Coastline appeal and how you now have to pay

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Speaker 1: in advance for their fees. Yeah, I'm aware of it. Again,

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Speaker 1: What the hell's that about? Station?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's again a conversation that Paul Godsmith will pick

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Speaker 2: up and work through. But the bottom line here is

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Speaker 2: that all we're doing on the MACA legislation is returning

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Speaker 2: it to what Parliament intended, as we said.

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Speaker 1: Here, But they don't like that and they want you. Now,

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Speaker 1: a court in this country is now telling the government,

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Speaker 1: which is the ultimate court, to pay money in advance

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Speaker 1: and how you run your what I mean, come on, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Well all we can do is we have to respect

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Speaker 1: the judiciary.

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Speaker 2: But we we have a government.

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Speaker 1: Well we do, even when they're just so egregiously invasive

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Speaker 1: an activist it's laughable.

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Speaker 2: Well, all I can do, Mike, is on that issue,

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Speaker 2: and to take the issues one by one and just say, look,

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Speaker 2: we had the balance right in twenty eleven with the legislation.

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Speaker 2: The threshold was lowered by the courts. That's not what

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Speaker 2: was intended. We're protecting the legitimate interests of all news

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Speaker 2: Isalanders as well as Maori customary rights. We had the

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Speaker 2: balance right, it's not right now. We're returning it back

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Speaker 2: to that and I appreciate there'll be a bit of

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Speaker 2: grief about that, but that's what was intended by parliament.

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Speaker 2: Parliament is sovereign. It gets to make the rules and

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Speaker 2: that's we're doing it this way.

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Speaker 1: Good is Winston gonna win on the fairies? Are you

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Speaker 1: going to win on the fairies? The free is going

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Speaker 1: to have rail or not?

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Speaker 2: Look, the tracks and then Dawn, I just say other

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Speaker 2: fairies like the current ki rail ones can go out

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Speaker 2: to twenty twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: They need to.

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Speaker 2: It's about to qui rail and make sure they maintain

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Speaker 2: just like earlines and trucking companies do fleet management very well.

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Speaker 2: We expect them to do that. We've got a Ministerial

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Speaker 2: Advisory Group where we're starting the discussions. Internally, we'll pop

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Speaker 2: up with a solution and I think Nicholas said we

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Speaker 2: will do that by the end of this year early

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Speaker 2: next year.

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Speaker 1: All right, I appreciate time Prime Minister Christopher lux on

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Speaker 1: Tuesday mornings on The Mic Asking Breakfast. For more from

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Speaker 1: the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks there'd

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