1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 1: Kyotra. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Growing 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: concern about public safety has reignited the idea of arming 4 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: our frontline police officers. The Police Union says sixty eight 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: percent of officers support routine arming, and our new Police Commissioner, 6 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Richard Chambers is apparently open to discussions around it, although 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: he has said we're proud of having unarmed police and 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: he'd like to keep it that way. This is all 9 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: while in the first hours of twenty twenty five, a 10 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: car rammed into a police vehicle at a Nelson gathering. 11 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: Senior Sergeant Lynn Fleming later died in hospital. Another officer 12 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: was critically injured. This was followed by another attempted ramming 13 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: a week later. So do we need to look at 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: better protecting those whose jobs are to protect us or 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,319 Speaker 1: are their risks to giving more power to the police? 16 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: Today on the Front Page, Auckland University criminology lecturer doctor 17 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: Amy Ruanket there joins us to discuss emmy, why do 18 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: you think conversations around arming our frontline offices happen so often? 19 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 2: Well deliberate political agenda. First of all, the Police Association 20 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: is organized body which has been pushing hard for frontline 21 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: police armament for years now. So one reason that this 22 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: keeps coming up is because they keep bringing it up. 23 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: I think another reason is that we see reporting about crime, 24 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: and we see frightening reporting about crime and more violence. 25 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: More force is always proposed as the solution to crime, 26 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: that if there was more oppression, more violence, than those 27 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: frightening stories would go away. 28 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: The Police Union says sixty eight percent of officers support 29 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: routine arming. Why do you think this. 30 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: Is It's a job that is based around the use 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: of force. That's what police officers are trained in doing. 32 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: There are lots of ways that we require police officers 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: to do other kinds of work. We make them be 34 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: mental health workers, who make them be social workers, we 35 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: make them do all kinds of things. But what they 36 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: are trained in is in the use of force, and 37 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: so that's what institutionally, the police as a body relies 38 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: on when it's time to solve problems. Now, the issue 39 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: is that more violence doesn't seem to be an effective 40 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: way of resolving the problem of crime, and so police 41 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: armament categorically will not fix the things that it's being 42 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: proposed as a solution. 43 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: To police Data reveals officers encountered nearly seventeen thousand firearms 44 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: in under six years Auckland, accounting for over a quarter 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: of those found nearly half of real injuries and deaths. 46 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: That means cops are carrying out routine police work and 47 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: finding nearly ten guns every day across the country. I 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: guess you can see kind of why these officers would 49 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: be open to carrying firearms themselves, but how would we 50 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: be sure that they wouldn't use them irresponsibly though? 51 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, first of all, it would be a misrepresentation 52 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: to say that New Zealand police officers don't carry firearms. 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: They do. Every police car has guns, and all of 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: our police officers routinely carry tases. So the idea that 55 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: police officers are completely vulnerable and open to being harmed 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: with no means of defending themselves, actually that's not true. 57 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: That's not what the situation is. But secondly, the idea 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: that more guns in these situations will make things safer 59 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: just isn't the case. The number one way to escalate 60 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: a fight, in my experience, is to start making more 61 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: shows of force. So the idea that every police officer 62 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: having a firearm on their hip will pull these situations 63 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: down on a supported idea, and we see this when 64 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: we look to the United States of America, a country 65 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: which does have frontline police armament, and it is a 66 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: much more frightening and violent place than Ultior has ever been. 67 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: I think most of us would like our country to 68 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: be less like the United States of America, not more, 69 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: and that is where policies like frontland police armament get 70 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: us going. Now you ask how we could be sure 71 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: that New Zealand's police officers wouldn't use firearms irresponsibly if 72 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: they were given them, And that's a very good question because, 73 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: first of all, the police have very recently been presented 74 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: with the Understanding Police Delivery Report which found that along 75 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 2: every measurable access, New Zealand's police force discriminates against Marti 76 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: and other ethnic minorities. Secondly, we've done a trial run 77 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: of police armament before, so New Zealand police tried the 78 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: armed Response Teams model in three jurisdictions in Auckland and Counties, 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: Wyecastle and in christ Church a number of years ago, 80 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: and they had a patrol CAUs who were carrying machine 81 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: guns on patrol in those areas looking for fights, and 82 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: for the most part, they didn't find any. None of 83 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: these armed response teams found themselves responding to an armed incident. 84 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 2: Mostly they were used for routine policing. They were doing 85 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: traffic stops, they were serving search warrants, they were doing 86 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: bail checks, all of the stuff that normal cops do 87 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 2: every day. But they were carrying machine guns. That is 88 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: simply not an arrangement that most New Zealanders want, and 89 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 2: people didn't support the trial, and it was canned after 90 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 2: it concluded. Police were warned the trial wouldn't provide enough 91 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: evidence to prove its worth. 92 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: That's about the success of the trial and more about 93 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: the style. 94 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: Of placing that's appropriate for New Zealand. I've been clear 95 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: that I see New Zealand as a generally unarmed police service, 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: and so our commitment is to continue to place in 97 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: that way. Finally, we have seen before what happens when 98 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: New Zealand's police force is given access to more dangerous weaponry. 99 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 2: The police did a trial rollout of tasers to see 100 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: how would police start using tases if they were routinely 101 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: armed with them, and what that reporting found was that 102 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: as soon as police officers had immediate access to offensive weapons, 103 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 2: they started resorting to those more serious forms of force 104 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: in order to resolve conflict during the course of their jobs. 105 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: So they used less restraint, less kind of closed fist, 106 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: and used taseres and pepper spray much more as soon 107 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: as as means are available to them. This is not 108 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: a situation into which we need to introduce more deadly 109 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: forms of force, because we have already seen they will 110 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: use it. They will use it in increasingly indiscriminate ways, 111 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: and they will use it primarily against marginalized populations like Maori, 112 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: ethnic minorities, people experiencing mental illness. 113 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually read an interesting study that examined police 114 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: shootings in New Zealand and up against England and Wales, 115 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: and it looked at rates from say nineteen seventy to 116 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and ultimately found in the last decade so 117 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: that twenty eleven to twenty twenty, New Zealand doubled the 118 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: rate of shootings and it decreased in England and Wales 119 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: at the same time. What is it about New Zealand 120 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: do you think that could potentially explain this? 121 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: The chriminaloist John Pratt argued that New Zealand's really been 122 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: subject to this populist way of talking about crime, and 123 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: so politicians, police association officials, police commissioners, as it may be, 124 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: have all really relied on this notion that the public 125 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: is endangered, the public is threatened, and the only way 126 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: to defend society from this alien invader threat from outside 127 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: is more force and more oppression. And so New Zealand 128 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 2: really has had a very very unitive criminal justice system. 129 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: We're hearing all these messages now about how the last 130 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: government was too soft on crime, and so we need 131 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: to put more children into boot camps, and we need 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: to builtimore prisons, and we need to punish people more. 133 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: New Zealand has one of the highest prison populations for 134 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: a country like us in the world. We are an 135 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 2: intensely punished society and an intensely punitive society. So the 136 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: idea that things need to be more punishing has been 137 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: tried and has been tried in this country for the 138 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: last forty years. What we've gotten out of it is 139 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: a wave of killings by police officers, and chrime has 140 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: not gone away. 141 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: You mentioned America before in America actually has to be 142 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: the number one example of why this is a bad idea. 143 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 2: Right. 144 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: According to some reporting from the Washington Post, on average, 145 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: police in the US shoot and kill more than one 146 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: thousand people a year since they began recording these numbers. 147 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: While half of those shot by police were white, black 148 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: Americans were shot at a disproportionate rate. They account for 149 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: roughly fourteen percent of the population there and are killed 150 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: by police at more than twice the rate than white Americans. Now, 151 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: tell me why in the world would we want to 152 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: emulate this. 153 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: We have data from New Zealand collected by the police 154 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: and elves which shows how they use force. What we 155 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: can see from that data is that mari are around 156 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: seven times more likely to be the victims of police 157 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: violence than pakiha are. We know exactly what would happen 158 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 2: if this policy was rolled out. We know exactly who 159 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: would be the victims of it. We know exactly what 160 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: a bad idea this would be. This is a government 161 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: which has relied on creating stories about race. I'm sure 162 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: many people who listened to this podcast have just fired 163 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: off their submissions on the tree principal skill. I know 164 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: that's what I was up all night doing as well. 165 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: This is a cultural war kind of strategy here. This 166 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: is a way of making us have these discussions about 167 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 2: the motive issues like crime, turning these into problems of 168 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 2: public order that can then only be solved by a 169 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 2: more punishing state and less support for people. But we 170 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: could do things different here in this country. We once 171 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: had zero unemployment because the state made sure that everyone 172 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: had a job. This is a kind of which once 173 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: had zero homelessness because the state made sure that everybody 174 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: had a home. We could do things that would solve 175 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: the fundamental causes of crime, give people the full dignified 176 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: human lives all of us deserve. But it would require 177 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: taking money away from the rich and giving it to 178 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: those of us who made that money through the sweat 179 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 2: of our brows and the labor that we do every 180 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: day to make this country the place that it is. 181 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 2: Until we do that, until we give people what they 182 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: need to live lives, crime will happen. And no amount 183 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: of policing, no amount of patrol teams, no amount of 184 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 2: pepper spray, tasers, firearms, none of this repression will ever 185 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: make it fundamental contradiction go away. 186 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: What have you made of Richard Chambers' comments about being 187 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 1: put into discussions about arming police officers, that's. 188 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: The kind of comment that can only be made due 189 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: to the cowardice of the last government. The last time 190 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: the question of frontline police armament was raised by the 191 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: Armed Response Team trial, under the previous police commissioner or 192 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: the Minister of Police kind of disavowed any responsibility for 193 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: making policy decisions about whether frontline police armament happens or 194 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: doesn't happen in this country, so the decision was left 195 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: to the judgment of the Police commissioner. But this isn't 196 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 2: a merely operational decision like police deciding which street they 197 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: are or are not going to patrol. This is a 198 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 2: fundamental question of what does justice look like in this country? 199 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: Does it look like a unarmed community officer who maybe 200 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: knows something who they are around and is able to 201 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: solve problems in ways that don't rely on violence every 202 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: single time, Because that's the mental image I think most 203 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: New Zealanders have when they're think of what policing should 204 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: be like the make it click commercials for McDonald's are 205 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: playing out. I remember that ad very well from my childhood, 206 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 2: because there is a friendly cop in it, who like 207 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: waves goodbye to all of the children when they get 208 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: inter Ronald McDonald's car. I love that ad when I 209 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: was a kid. I still love that ahead. And that's 210 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: an image of policing that will disappear if we give 211 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: every cop a gun, because within a year, two years, 212 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: three years, at the decision being made, we will see 213 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 2: more bullets in the bodies of young brown people in 214 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 2: this country, and the police force in this country will 215 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: again be associated with the kind of racist terror that 216 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: it was known for during the era of dawn raids 217 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: and red squads and formal police racism against all the 218 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: communities that they've repeatedly apologized to for that discrimination. We 219 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: could do things differently here. If we want to rely 220 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: on a racist police violence and state terror in order 221 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: to try to distract people from the fact that people 222 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: comit in crimes because they don't have homes or jobs 223 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 2: or mental health care, fine, we can do that, but 224 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 2: there will be people in the community, people and organizations 225 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 2: like the ones which I belong, people like It's Prinzaltior 226 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 2: people and community organizations, people on the organized leafs who 227 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,079 Speaker 2: will be there to fight back against these racist, discriminatory 228 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: policies to try to build something like a same society. 229 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: How do we go about doing it? Though? So if 230 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: we don't arm our police, what else can be done 231 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: to better protect them on the front line? I guess 232 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: I'm thinking back to New Year's Day or the early 233 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: mornings of the death of Lynn Fleming is an absolute tragedy, 234 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: of course, and that was followed by another attempted incident 235 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: in Fungaday a few days later. Going back to those stats, 236 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 1: seventeen thousand firearms in six years, you've got incidents like 237 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: what happened to Lynn Fleming. How else are our officers 238 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: meant to protect themselves, do you think? Or is it 239 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: just pard and parcel of being a frontline officer and 240 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: looking at society and looking at getting people jobs, homes, etc. 241 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's terrible and no one should just 242 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 2: get killed at work, think none of us except that 243 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: that is a reality what people need to do when 244 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: they shop for jobs. But we are not currently living 245 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: through a crisis of violence against New Zealand police. We 246 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: simply aren't. These are relatively benefrequent and that is obviously 247 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: an excellent thing. What we are living through is a 248 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: crisis of police violence. Police as you said, have become far, 249 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: far more likely to kill New Zealanders in the course 250 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: of trying to solve problems that they're experiencing, and that 251 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: is the issue with which we should be much more concerned. 252 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: We cannot democratically control the behavior of every New Zealand 253 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 2: or the country. I wish that we could pass the 254 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: law saying no one will be violent anymore and everyone 255 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: stopped being violent. That will be the role that I 256 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 2: would vastly prefer to live in. We do not have 257 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: that capacity, but we do have the capacity to democratically 258 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: decide how are we going to do justice in this country. 259 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: Are we going to brutalize, degrade and incarcerate people who 260 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 2: are behaving in an unacceptable way, or are we going 261 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: to create the kind of society in which that behavior 262 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: does not occur. So there are a number of things 263 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: that are happening here. We're using the police for stuff that, 264 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: as they rightly point out, they are not actually capable 265 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 2: of responding to. So we have police officers trying to 266 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: respond to mental health crisis. I've known a number of 267 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: mental health professionals who work in the crisis sector who 268 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: know that that is a difficult job to do, and 269 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: none of them work there anymore because there's no money 270 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: to fund those positions. We don't have the kind of 271 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: frontline response that we would need for a trained mental 272 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: health professional to be present when someone is having a 273 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: mental health episode in public and needs support, So we 274 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: send the police instead, and as police violence Stater shows, 275 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: the police often resort to tasering that person and then 276 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: throwing them in the cells. Is that what you would 277 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: want for someone you love who is having a moutdown 278 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: in public? I know that it's not what I would want. 279 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: So the answer here isn't what is the one thing 280 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: we need to do differently in order to allow the 281 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: police to finally start fixing their social problems. The ancy 282 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: here is recognizing that there are a number of social 283 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 2: functions which we are trying and failing to make the 284 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: police fulfill. There are some stuff for which they are 285 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: exactually the right agency to respond. If there is a 286 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: white creamers as terrorists shooting up a masque, yes they 287 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: are probably the right people to be dealing with that. 288 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: But most of the things which we send the police 289 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: to do, frankly, either do not warrant any kind of response, 290 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: or warrant a response that the police are not capable 291 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: of giving. We send the police to enforce evictions, we 292 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: send the police to try to calm down fights, to 293 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: deal people who are in suicidal distress. They can't do 294 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: any of that stuff. What we need to do is 295 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: to fund agencies and organizations who are able to do 296 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: that stuff. And until we do that, no, it's never 297 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: going to work. 298 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 3: I'm sick and tired of the criminal low light and 299 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: the repeat violent offenders who put public safety at risk, 300 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 3: and that's why we're going after them, and in particular gangs. 301 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: If you are in a gang, be prepared to be 302 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: harassed by the police. If you're committing crimes, be prepared 303 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: for tougher sentences because we are introducing limits on repeat sentence, 304 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 3: discounts for remorse and if you keep offending, sorry, frankly, 305 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: isn't going to cut it anymore. We are cracking down 306 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 3: on crime, we are going after the gangs, and we 307 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: are going to restore law and order in New Zealand. 308 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: Well, when it comes to crime in this country, of course, 309 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: society usually errs on the side of let's get tough 310 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: on crime. That approach and I mean, look National's election 311 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: campaign people must think that way. Why do you think 312 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: we tend to prefer this approach over a restorative approach. 313 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: For the last forty years in this country, the state 314 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 2: has really stepped back. So we used to have a 315 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: very comprehensive social safety in thet state, provision of housing, employment, 316 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 2: health care, education, all the things that people need to 317 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: live full lives. And bit by bit, piece by piece, 318 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: that social welfare system, that social state has been pulled apart, 319 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 2: and more and more the state is saying, well, that's 320 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: your problem to deal with. Your benefits are going to 321 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: get cut. You figured it out. No, you can't have 322 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: a food grant. You figure it out. Good luck finding 323 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: a house. We're not building any state housing. We're not 324 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 2: going to help you find a place. You figure it out. 325 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: We are trained to think of people's problems as their problems. 326 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: If someone's life is bad, it's because they didn't do 327 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: a good job making themselves a good life. And the 328 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: state has supported this illusion right. Every aspect of state 329 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: policy has been aimed at forcing this responsibilization on all 330 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 2: of us, to make all of us into individually responsible 331 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: free market agents. But human beings aren't. Those human beings 332 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: live in a society in a context which has been 333 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: given to us in the past, which has been transmitted 334 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: to us, and so we've kind of been forced to 335 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: see people responsible for their own lives in a way 336 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: that they frankly are not. Some people would never have 337 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 2: had the chance to live a well adjusted, functional life 338 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: because of the conditions which have been voiced upon them 339 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: by history. And as long as we are trained to 340 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: see those people that individually responsible for the kind of 341 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: life that they live, yes, it makes very much. It 342 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense for us to then think, well, 343 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: they need to be punished in order to help them 344 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: learn to make better decisions. But because that's not how 345 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: human decision making works, that's not how history works, that 346 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: approach is doomed. So we've been trained into a way 347 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: of thinking about crime and justice and punishment that is 348 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 2: fundamentally at odds with the human reality we all inhabit. 349 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: But it is very very convenient for the rich if 350 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: we think in these ways, because we don't demand structural justice, 351 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: we don't demand economic justice. We demand that the dysfunction 352 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: people get dragged away and treat it poorly and get 353 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,479 Speaker 2: put somewhere where we don't have to look at them, 354 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: we'll think about why they exist. 355 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Emmy. That's it for this episode 356 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: of the Front Page. You can read more about today's 357 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzedherld dot co dot mz. 358 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, 359 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: who is also our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe 360 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get 361 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind 362 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: the headlines.